Teaching others to shoot

[aray]

Since I obtained my non-resident Florida concealed carry permit, got my Kahr CW9, and got back in to shooting again, my wife & kid have expressed interest in learning to shoot as well. Yeah.

I thought I'd solicit your collective opinions on how best to accomplish that. I know there is no one "right" set of answers but I'm really interested in what all of you have to say - and why. Some fodder to get your ideas started:

* To date I've only let them plink around with my pellet rifle. Advantages of a pellet rifle are: they get used to front and rear sights and how to acquire a target, how to squeeze the trigger, no loud "bang" and no bad recoil, etc. Would it be best to keep them on this for a while or would it be better to move up to the handguns quicker?

* When I do move them up to handguns, I have three guns in two models. I have my CW9 of course. I also have two Beretta 92Fs. One has a laser sight (and is working) and one does not have a laser sight (and jams - but I'm trying to resolve those problems quickly). Question: which one would you recommend I start them on? The CW9 is small and might fit the hands of my wife and kid better (she's 11). However it has a bit more recoil than the Berettas and has a shorter barrel. So I'm thinking the Beretta might be easier to shoot and give better groupings for them initially. If I do chose to go with the Berettas (and assuming I get the malfunctions resolved on the one) would ya'll recommend going with a laser sight or conventional sighting? A laser might be easier for a newbie to get a well placed shot, but somehow I sorta feel I'm "cheating" them by not teaching them "properly", i.e. a laser is a bit of a shortcut.

* Do you think it's important to warn them about the "violence" of the blast & recoil much in advance, or would that make them nervous and hypersensitive? (As a footnote one of the first times I ever went to the range the guy next to me was popping off a 357 and a 44. Not a good start for a newbie. But I obviously survived.)

* What are the most important lessons you try to teach to newbies when they first learn to shoot? (As an aside of course I'm already teaching them the fundamentals of safety, e.g. always assume a gun is loaded, never point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot, keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, etc.)

Don't want to constrain your thinking by only addressing the questions I posed above. I just listed those things because I've been mulling them over and wanted to know what others think.

Obviously I want them to have a good first experience and enjoy their time at the range. And of course I want to set up the kid for a lifetime of enjoying her shooting freedoms and appreciating the Second Amendment.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

[Bawanna]

I think it's awesome that your wife and daughter show an interest in shooting. I think your last line said it all. You want their first and hopefully every range trip to be all good. All positive. Hopefully for you and them both. I've found that sometimes in learning experiences it can be a bit of a challenge as sometimes wifes don't want to listen to husbands teach them about guns, or driving pickups. If you find that's a bad thing then find someone else to help for the first trip. May not be an issue at all, hopefully not. I would use all your guns. I'd probably try to borrow or rent a 22 of some sort, then move to the Beretta's. I'd probably have them try the regular sight one first and then switch to the laser. That will allow you to see what they see. Have them try to use the sights and not pay much attention to the laser, a great training aid. Shoot the CW and have them watch, I'm sure they can both handle it just fine but don't surprise them. I prepare them but don't over do the warnings. Like this ones gonna kick a little more but it's not bad and its not gonna hurt you. If they shoot a round and don't want to shoot another,switch back to something they like.
I always have a new shooter watch me or someone shoot a gun first. If it looks like to much to them and they are hesitant don't force them. My youngest has just started shooting my K40. He didn't want anything to do with it until the last trip. They will let you know when they are ready to go to the next level. 40 should be top of the heap for later sessions in my opinion, I'd shoot 45's or 38's before going there.
I just try to keep everything positive, take breaks, try to use targets that show hits well, if your outside get some clay birds or suckers, or something that blows up when hit. Kids especially like to see something happen, not just a hole in the target. Stay in close 5 - 7 yards is plenty far enough. If you find yourself in a lane with the guy next to you blasting with a 44, hold off, get another lane, wait till he's done.
My wife for some reason doesnt like to shoot if there's anyone else around, she's gotten better but she likes to be off by herself, usually at a range your in a booth like setup so people really aren't watching you or at least you don't get the feeling of being watched.
When I take new shooter I just plan in advance that it's all about them and not about me. They shoot, you load, you help they shoot, you don't shoot much. Don't overdo the first trip, when they are done, they are done but have plenty of ammo, I suspect they'll have a blast.

[recoilguy]

My wife and daughter have both taken an interest in shooting and make trips to the range with me. I think the idea of a .22 pistol is a good one as mentioned above. I also agree to have them watch and begin to participate when they are ready. One thing I have done is hand the .22 to them, have them get into their shooting stance and then i tap the botom of the .22 with the force they can expect to feel in recoil. I then hand them the 9mm and tap the bottom harder and say that is what you can expect from the 9mm. Let me know when you are ready.

I also start them on big paper so they can see the holes then I put up Ballons and clay pigoens so they can see stuff break. My daughter especially likes it when the stuff she shots breaks......It makes it more fun for her and thats my goal.

Good luck and have fun. I do a monthly Dad Daughter date nite at the range......we shoot then go get a burger or a Blizzard and sit around and talk about stuff. I really like that.

RCG

[wyntrout]

Aray, family shooting trips can be great fun and if you don't bore them too much with preparation, it will be more fun for them. Safe gun handling, sight picture, stance and grip basics at home are nice, but I expect they'll get impatient with too much.
You can find videos at YouTube and probably the NRA site to help and they may appreciate that and pay more attention if it's not just you teaching them. it's kind of a familiarity breeds contempt thing... depending on how much you correct either of them at home.:D
I use earplugs AND ear-protectors, and eye protection as well. After watching all of the blast and burning powder and stuff coming out of every opening and in every direction in my videos of shooting and freeze frames, I would not shoot without protecting my eyes.
A .22 to start would be nice, whether borrowed or yours. I just shot someone else's High Power after shooting nothing but Kahrs for months. It FELT like a .22. The extra weight makes a big difference.
The laser could be a great teaching tool, reinforcing correct sight picture and point of aim. It's great for showing the excess motion or wobble while aiming and jerking the trigger, too.:D Dry firing with or without snap caps can be used for procedure practice and safety.
The less other people shooting and no cannons being fired while trying to teach them at the range, the better, though you probably can't work out a schedule for off times at the range while you're all off. I get distracted when someone's firing a huge cannon at the range... the kind where you feel concussion and blast from the other end of the range. Getting pelted by brass from the adjacent lanes is distracting too.
Something to remember is buttoning up shirts and blouses or wearing a scarf or something to prevent hot brass from getting into sensitive areas... even guys!
A hat with a bill offers some protection from wayward cases, too. I learned or relearned all of this recently with the love taps from my PM45 smacking me in the forehead or bouncing off overhead target conveyance parts or the sidewalls. At the range I frequent, I get pelted from both side with hot brass sometimes.
Anyhow, it great that they want to get involved... it's better than dragging them to the range. My wife would rather be shopping and my 35-year-old daughter would rather be shooting.
Good luck. I'm sure that there will be lots of "help" here and a lot of it is preaching to the choir.
Paper plates, the cheapest white ones and good tape to hold them on a piece cardboard, are terrific for targets. You can use a marker to annotate them and they can be changed often and saved to record progress or to brag about to friends.
Wynn:D

[getsome]

Hi aray, I haven't met you yet but welcome aboard...I have been away for a while and took the family down to Destin FL. for what may be the last time in a very long time due to the BP mess, anyway I'm glad your wife and kids want to shoot and they will enjoy it more each time they go....One idea that I used when my younger son then 12 wanted to learn to shoot was to get a cheap airsoft pistol in a (Beretta 92F like yours) model and start shooting in the house....I have a 1911 .45 and he wanted to shoot that so I bought a 1911 airsoft pistol and we shot it in the living room using a cardeboard box with a paper target taped over the open end.....This way they get to feel what the real pistol feels like and learn the proper grip and use of the sights....I think both your wife and kids will be able to fire the 92F with no trouble with range ammo (no +p) and like was mentioned earlier run a large target out to 7 yards or so, that way they can hit and see where the rounds go....I think it would be best to not try the laser until they get the feel of the gun and regular sights at first....The only problem you will have is when they both start to out shoot you like my son does me!!! (those young eyes) He is 14 now and on our last range trip he said he wanted to fire my S&W .44 with a magnum round...I thought he would do it once and quit due to the recoil but not only did he shoot 6 rounds into a 3 inch group at 20 yards, he wanted more rounds!!!!...Just because kids are small doesn't mean they cant fire large caliber pistols, they just need to work up to it....Good luck to you and the family.....

[jfrey]

You have some good ideas to start with but a couple of words of caution. First, be sure YOU have a lot of patience when you start. It is easy for you to get frustrated when they don't do exactly as you told them. Been there - done that. Second, if you demonstrate to your wife how to fire a pistol (semi), if you actually intend to fire it yourself, have her stand back and to your LEFT. I'm not being funny but the first time you drop a hot piece of brass down the front of her shirt she won't let you forget it either. I know, I've done that too. Otherwise, let them shoot and enjoy getting into the sport.

[Bawanna]

You have some good ideas to start with but a couple of words of caution. First, be sure YOU have a lot of patience when you start. It is easy for you to get frustrated when they don't do exactly as you told them. Been there - done that. Second, if you demonstrate to your wife how to fire a pistol (semi), if you actually intend to fire it yourself, have her stand back and to your LEFT. I'm not being funny but the first time you drop a hot piece of brass down the front of her shirt she won't let you forget it either. I know, I've done that too. Otherwise, let them shoot and enjoy getting into the sport.

It's comforting to me that I'm not the only one that mentions the frustration. You really do have to do everything you can to keep it all up beat and fun. It's a challenge. Quite often you got a rangemaster breathing down your neck, your trying to keep everything safe and organized while trying to keep your new shooter content and happy. You can't overextend yourself or its no fun for you.
I've helped many other guys wifes and kids on the first range trip. It's certainly not that I'm any kind of super good shot or firearms expert but I'm not the husband, or the dad. I'm somebody else, so I must know what I'm doing? I'm all for fun, all good, any bad, (kids that want to horseplay, etc) game over we're out of here and try another day. I've never once had a kid horseplay once the ground rules are in place.
It's not unlike me trying to show my wife how to do what little I know on the computer, she wont listen to me, I usually roll away in frustration.
Getsome nailed it here well also. Every kid and wife is different, mind set determines if they are ready to move up or shoot at all. They'll let you know when they are ready. Guess it's just important not to push too hard. Don't start too high on the caliber food chain.
I just love seeing new shooters at the range, I hate seeing them intimidated or ridiculed by overzealous rangemasters or other shooters who think they invented the whole shooting experience.

[jocko]

just make certain that your wife and daughter are wearing good hear ing protectors at the range and the noise blast thing will be a no brainer. Just a great way to damage one's hearing is to not wear hearing protectors. Other than that a revolver, or semi will be a fun gun for them to shoot. My wife and daughter both shoot and they do love to shoot my G19. It is pleasant to shoot, they seem to shoot it well for accuracy to and they know the fundamentals of a glock also. I gave my daughter years ago a J frame hammerless and she shoots it but I can tell she does not like to shoot it. I thought it would be a good gun for her due to the safety features and knowing how easy it is to load and unload etc and no chances of jams etc,. All those she liked but the recoil of the 38 special, I could tell was just to much for her to enjoy. 25 rounds and she was done, after a dozen rounds, the targets was very safe at 7 yards. Just not so with the G19. That in itself built self confidence to her alot. I think I will buy her now a g19 over my kahrs to, for I just know she can shoot the Glock more accurately..

Still anytime you can get ur wife and children enthused about firearms is a big big plus. Some day your kids will be on there own, and I for one feel very good about my daughter keeping a gun in her apartment and actually knowing how to use it..

[Bawanna]

just make certain that your wife and daughter are wearing good hear ing protectors at the range and the noise blast thing will be a no brainer. Just a great way to damage one's hearing is to not wear hearing protectors. Other than that a revolver, or semi will be a fun gun for them to shoot. My wife and daughter both shoot and they do love to shoot my G19. It is pleasant to shoot, they seem to shoot it well for accuracy to and they know the fundamentals of a glock also. I gave my daughter years ago a J frame hammerless and she shoots it but I can tell she does not like to shoot it. I thought it would be a good gun for her due to the safety features and knowing how easy it is to load and unload etc and no chances of jams etc,. All those she liked but the recoil of the 38 special, I could tell was just to much for her to enjoy. 25 rounds and she was done, after a dozen rounds, the targets was very safe at 7 yards. Just not so with the G19. That in itself built self confidence to her alot. I think I will buy her now a g19 over my kahrs to, for I just know she can shoot the Glock more accurately..

Still anytime you can get ur wife and children enthused about firearms is a big big plus. Some day your kids will be on there own, and I for one feel very good about my daughter keeping a gun in her apartment and actually knowing how to use it..

I just left her place. She said to tell ya if you didn't spend so much on ammo and gas for that Harley her monthly allowance would be much better. Oh she said to say hi too. Mind if I start calling you daddy?

[getsome]

Bawan, I hope you got a Hemi in that chair...:cool:

[Bawanna]

Bawan, I hope you got a Hemi in that chair...:cool:

Sometimes I'm just reckless, I think it's a curse. Wonder if it's too late to delete it? Either he ain't seen it or he's astride that hog headed west for sure. Probably trying to get me banned and I probably deserve it, sometimes I just hate myself.

[Bawanna]

Before I go and with a meager attempt to get this back on track, I'll also quite often spend a little bench time with a new shooter especially teenage or adult new shooters and show them what makes a gun work. Field strip it, explain the major parts and what they do. Why we do some of the things we do for whatever reason, safety, comfort, accuracy. At the same time you can talk about the sights. I usually do this at home, quieter, more easy going relaxed atmosphere. Somewhat surprisingly woman usually really appreciate this part, helps them understand the concept before they ever pull a trigger.

[aray]

Wow guys, thanks a lot. There were a ton of great suggestions in there I would not have thought of on my own. I've already picked up a bag of balloons on my way home from work today and checked with the range to ensure that they have .22s for rent (they do). I won't repeat all of your suggestions here but I'm going to try and follow pretty much all of them.

I have no doubt that when I get them out to the range in 2-3 weeks from now that they'll have a great experience thanks to all of your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes!

Thanks again.

[DKD]

Hey JOCKO,

Have you ever tried stoking your daughters J frame with wad cutters? They are real mild even in a .38 spl. airwaeight, snubby Smith & Wesson. Also for about $35.00 you can put a new spring kit in that J frame and it will reduce the double action trigger pull by over 30-40% and also make for a really sweet single action pull.

[wyntrout]

"I have no doubt that when I get them out to the range in 2-3 weeks from now that they'll have a great experience thanks to all of your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes!
Ray"

Dang... that long? We would appreciate pictures, movies, testimonials....
Wynn:D:popcorn:

[aray]

"I have no doubt that when I get them out to the range in 2-3 weeks from now that they'll have a great experience thanks to all of your suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes!
Ray"

Dang... that long? We would appreciate pictures, movies, testimonials....
Wynn:D:popcorn:

Yeah, I'd like to get out sooner but I can only get out to the range mostly on weekends. And this weekend we celebrated a couple of family birthdays (mine & my father-in-law's), next weekend I hope to diagnose what's going on with my malfunctioning Beretta 92, and then the weekend after that is when I hope to get the wife & kid out to the range for the first time.

I'll provide the report, you bring the popcorn!

[jeep45238]

Safety, safety, safety, and more safety - repeat verbatim what the safety rules are, and understand that I will not accept any violation of them.

I make it a point to emphasis that while they may have a .22 in their hands, I keep a 9mm (previously .45ACP) on my hip - and I will not hesitate to shoot their ass if they start shooting at me or anybody else. I'm literally putting faith in them with an object that can maim and kill, and trust them to NOT endanger anybody with it. If you put somebody's life in danger, well, I'll end that threat one way or another. Usually after some constant reminders after a mag is out, fingers off triggers, etc., things start to click and I never have to remind them again.


That said - I start with .22LR ONLY on rifles and pistols, regardless who it is, or what they want to learn how to shoot. Period. I don't care how much you want to shoot your .500S&W airweight J frame revolver - you will ingrain horrible habits and not learn the basics if you're recoil sensitive.

After sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger pull have begun to sink in, I start to get into recoil management, and after the groups have shrunk down a bit more, I ask if they'd like to step up to full calibers or stick with rimfire.

If they want to go to centerfires, it's generally a whole day at the range. People start to worry more about muzzle flip and focusing on recoil management, but forget to do something simple like look at the front sight.

Specifically speaking about your firearms and family, I'd start with the Beretta's, even though they will not ergonomically work well at first. Specifically, use the one equipped with a laser sight. Instill in them that you want them to use the iron sights to shoot, not the laser. The laser will allow YOU to help diagnose if they're jerking the trigger, pressing the gun down right before the shot breaks, etc..

There's a LOT of technical things that go into shooting in all of the various disciplines, and it is a lot like drinking out of a firehose the first few times at the range with me if you want to know how I'm shooting and why I do things certain ways. But when those things are broken down to simple analogies and dry fire practice/ball and dummy is used, they progress very quickly.


YouTube - flicksguns's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/flicksguns)


There's some basic recoil management and trigger control videos in there amongst some other things, but they may wind up helping you and yours.

[Bawanna]

Safety, safety, safety, and more safety - repeat verbatim what the safety rules are, and understand that I will not accept any violation of them.

I make it a point to emphasis that while they may have a .22 in their hands, I keep a 9mm (previously .45ACP) on my hip - and I will not hesitate to shoot their ass if they start shooting at me or anybody else. I'm literally putting faith in them with an object that can maim and kill, and trust them to NOT endanger anybody with it. If you put somebody's life in danger, well, I'll end that threat one way or another. Usually after some constant reminders after a mag is out, fingers off triggers, etc., things start to click and I never have to remind them again.


That said - I start with .22LR ONLY on rifles and pistols, regardless who it is, or what they want to learn how to shoot. Period. I don't care how much you want to shoot your .500S&W airweight J frame revolver - you will ingrain horrible habits and not learn the basics if you're recoil sensitive.

After sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger pull have begun to sink in, I start to get into recoil management, and after the groups have shrunk down a bit more, I ask if they'd like to step up to full calibers or stick with rimfire.

If they want to go to centerfires, it's generally a whole day at the range. People start to worry more about muzzle flip and focusing on recoil management, but forget to do something simple like look at the front sight.

Specifically speaking about your firearms and family, I'd start with the Beretta's, even though they will not ergonomically work well at first. Specifically, use the one equipped with a laser sight. Instill in them that you want them to use the iron sights to shoot, not the laser. The laser will allow YOU to help diagnose if they're jerking the trigger, pressing the gun down right before the shot breaks, etc..

There's a LOT of technical things that go into shooting in all of the various disciplines, and it is a lot like drinking out of a firehose the first few times at the range with me if you want to know how I'm shooting and why I do things certain ways. But when those things are broken down to simple analogies and dry fire practice/ball and dummy is used, they progress very quickly.


YouTube - flicksguns's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/flicksguns)


There's some basic recoil management and trigger control videos in there amongst some other things, but they may wind up helping you and yours.

I can't think of a faster way to turn new shooters away from shooting myself. I certainly encourage safety and insist on it in a much more subtle manner. Give me the speach about you having a 9 and I only a 22 and I'd be down the road looking for a new range or more likely a fabric store to pick up yarn and do some knitting.
I've met many range masters with this attitude and I avoid their ranges especially with new shooters and for my own sanity, like gun salesman sometimes, they talk tough, have swelled heads and want to be somebody, to ask them you'd think they were somebody, but usually they put their pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else and at the end of the day they go right back into abscurity. It's not their job to intimidate new shooters or old shooters and who's to say they know more than anyone anyhow. Go to gunsite or any of the big schools and I could see your approach, you have a whole classroom of alphas who think they are somebody trying to impress each other, not great for safety and a challenge for the instructors hence the emphasis on safety and rules. Different deal all together.

[jeep45238]

When it's mentioned once with an oddball smile, and never brought up again, well, whatever, hasn't turned anybody off. Generally I'm then asked where else they can go to shoot, and we wind up shooting matches together and having lunch afterwards. It's mentioned in the middle of the safety rules for less than 5 seconds and we're off to the races with sight alignment and picture. It may not always be emphasised as much, but it is clear that I don't accept non-conformance to safety rules with a firearm. Period.

Trust me, I'm far from inflating my ego - and I always seem to get the hot shot know it alls that are wanting to learn how to shoot from me. I'm far from the best shot and I know it too. Usually they're a friend's co-worker who thinks they're hot **** and can barely land all shots in a full size B27 at 7 yards. When it's somebody who geniuenly wants to learn, that method is unwarrented, and they're a sponge for info anyway.

Handing somebody a .44 mag airweight for their first handgun - now there's a way to turn somebody off from shooting.

[jlottmc]

Umm I got the 629 as soon as I could handle it. I learned the fundamentals on a Ruger MKII, then right to the 629. I used to wake my old man up on Sundays wanting to go rabbit hunting with it. Then I got to where I could hit them with it. I've been hooked ever since. In fact now that I think about it, that 629 may have started my sickness, because that was the one I first showed interest in. The old man used to have a S&W 629 with a 4" barrel that was a high polish nickel finish, with rosewood grips. What happened to that cannon was tragic, but, ultimately, right. That's a story for another time though. I do much the same bit I stress safety, but don't mention the usually 1911 in a kydex belt holster, but it's seen. Of course the ones I get want to learn, and the rest are ones that have been sent knowing they need help to qualify.