New CM9 Feed Issue

[smargison]

I bought the CM9 in January for CCW and I love the feel and comfort. However, I have a major issue with it. From the first day it fed the top cartridge (racking the slide) atraight into the feed ramp instead of the chamber, causing a nasty jam. I assumed that it was a break-in problem, and it only happend on a fresh reload, never after firing a shot. However, after about 150 rnds with no relief I decided it was a defect. I returned it to Gander Mt who returned it to Kahr and I now have it back, 6 weeks later. I fired it today and the problem has not been fixed. In fact, it is worse. Sometimes today it jammed upon a shot. I've tried it with a couple of different personal defense brands (Federal Guard Dog and Hornady XTP) and Federal target grade FMJ. Same issue with all three. However, I also used some factory remanufactured generic 9mm FMJ ammo and it never failed! How's that for strange? So now, I don't know if I should return it again, try a local gunsmith I know (who is very good), or just consider the gun a classroom demo and buy something else. Right now it is not suitable for carry since it will most likely not feed correctly. Any thoughts? Anyone else have this issue?

[100percent]

Are you using he slide release to load the weapon?

[muggsy]

If you know for a fact that Gander Mountain sent the gun back to Kahr, I'd call the service department and speak with them directly about the problem. Having a chambering problem with the slingshot method could be due to a poor technique, but jamming problems aren't. The jamming problem could be due to limp wristing, or could be mechanical in nature. In any event you paid good money for the gun and Kahr will correct the problem under warranty. Request an RA number and prepaid mailing label to save yourself the cost of shipping. I wouldn't use a local gunsmith as that could void your warranty.

[hardluk1]

Next time do NOT take it to gander mountain, call Kahr directly. It would cost you NOTHING to ship it. . Some in house smith at gander could have messed with it.


AS muggsy said call kahr and check to see if it made it to them for service. Does it chamber a round using the slide release?? IF you have a friend you trust with small gun experience and your pistol is clean and well lube, "wet" let them give it some range time .

[trentu]

Check that your magazine spring is in correct and the follower is not broke. Also try and load one in the chamber, close the slide with the release and then put in a full mag. Let us know how it turns out.

[smargison]

Thanks for the input, guys! Yes, Gander sent it to Kahr. I confirmed that with Kahr. It would cost $75 for me to send it directly to Kahr, so I had Gander do it for free (since they are obligated anyway). I am operating the gun properly -- I have many years of experience and I'm a certified instructor. The jams mainly occur on loading a fresh mag and racking the slide, so limp-wristing wouldn't be a factor anyway. (I correct shooters at the range for that fault.) I've also tried taking the top round and angling it up a bit before inserting the mag and that does seem to help a wee bit but not always. Loading with dummy bullets (real dummies, not SnapCaps) I can rack the slide all day long without issue. And the reloaded stuff I have works perfectly, too. It is mainly the self-defense ammo that gives trouble, which of course, eliminates the gun from being carried. The Federal Guard Dog is a smooth nose round so hanging up on the slits of a JHP isn't the issue either. Dang if I know what is causing it! Guns are supposed to not like reloads and like new stuff and this one is just the opposite. I wish Gander or Kahr would just replace the weapon for me because at this point I'm not sure I'd ever trust it even if it started working properly on the range. You need 110% confidence in a carry gun, right?

[smargison]

Further: The problem is no different either releasing the slide with the release or fully racking it or just pulling it out of slide lock and releasing. And, yes, I let the spring do the work. I had originally gotten an RMA from Kahr but they mentioned nothing about a prepaid label. So when I saw the $75 to ship via UPS I contacted Gander and they said to bring it in and they would handle it. But since Kahr DID work on it and DID consider it fixed, I'm a little reluctant to waste the time sending it back to them again. I guess I was hoping for someone else to have had the issue and discovered the fix, whether it was physical or user. What brands of ammo do you all use, especially for P.D.?

[berettabone]

Does this happen with more than one mag? Check mag springs to make sure that they are in correctly? Polish feed ramp? I know they usually come with a polished ramp. I polish all of my firearm feedramps anyway. Makes me feel better. I use Fed HST 147 gr.

[jocko]

have u tried anutter magazine?? Is this always on the first round that gives this issue, ven when using the slide release lever? Does it not do so with one round shy in tghe magazine???

It would b enice if u had anutter magazine to test out to, but if u don't and it does this only on the first round and thgen all is fine after that, then cut one coil off the spring and retest. Not saying it could be the wrong mag spring in the gun but IT COLD BE and how would u know??? At the worst u ruin one magazine spring, at the best , u fixedf it.
Cut off the bottom of the spring. Certainly make sdure the spring is in correctly to, we have seen this berfore. Kahr magazines come fully assembled from therir vendfor, so u can figure they are not gonna take um apart to check them out either. It sounds to me like it is magazine related.

Not saying this is true, but givbe those feed limps on the magazine a good polishing with some fine paper, u just never know. U gotta start somewhere to eliminate the posssbilitie. Have u check to see if that first round cold be hitting on the inside of the slide stop lever and throwing it off course???

Keep us posted. I don't see how it can be user error if ur using the slide lever release, so u have eliminated that part.

Lopad one round shy ad see how things work, that will be a starter for you. The gun can count so it doesnot inow if it is the first round in a 6 round mag or the first roundin a 6 round mag with only 5 rounds in it.

Sometimes a week recoil spring just hasn't enough ump to run that first roud in the chambert on a fully loaded magazine. If u realize how hard it is to squeeze that last round in the magazine, now think about the slide doing its fjob by pushing that round out of the magazine and with only the recoil spring doing it. If for some reason that spring is on a weak side even though new, it can do that on the first round. again not saying this is true but u can go to wolffs gun springs and order just therir outter springs under the PM9 heading, as they both ar ethe same. U can also order the 20.5# spring whish is a tad stronger and would certinly help to run that first round out of the magazine alot easier, let alone reduce some felt recoil

[100percent]

Perhaps you should use the ammo your gun likes. If it won't load a particular shaped bullet it isn't very good defensive ammo. I am not trying to be smart. Perhaps put what works into the chamber then your preferred ammo in the mag.

I didn't carry my used PM40 for several years because it would have a failure to feed randomly. I had polished the ramp and lightly polished the chamber. I would shoot it more changed out the recoil springs when I realized after reading a post by muggsy that the extractor was the culprit. I just couldn't get it through my head that the round was hanging up at the back rather than at the front of the round.

I am not saying that is what your problem is and it is unfortunate that your gun was not fixed to your satisfaction.

[Pointblank]

Was this a new gun when you bought it? If so, Kahr pays the shipping both ways.

[muggsy]

You can check to see if the nose of the bullet is coming into contact with the slide lock as a bullet feeds from the magazine. Do this with the slide removed. Also check the see if the bullet goes under the extractor with out a lot of effort. Kahr should be willing to send you a prepaid mailing label by e-mail if you purchased the gun new, especially since this will be the second time that you are returning it for service.

[jocko]

oh my 100percent, u gavbe Muggsy a big ego compliment. Now we will never be able to communicate with him for he is gonna think he kows it all. Oh my what next??? Muggsy as a new mod maybe??? Actually l jocko had told Mugsy about this extractor mod in a PM as he was goin in to a state of depression and I was trying to help him to get there faster!!! He will take credit for alot if ur not careful. Just sayin. He means well but realize, he is not well either. He has PTSD AND ADDH combined. Just sayin.

[Bawanna]

Had no idea he was that sick. I better send him a card or something. Does chicken soup do anything for those maladies?

Kahr may or may not prepay the shipping, they often times do and in this situation I have to believe they would but shipping is not officially part of the warranty.

Again they usually do but not always.

[jocko]

10-4 on the shipping policy. Yes Muggsy is very sick, I also forgot he has MS to SDHNC syndrome to. To my knowledge someone like Monica has the antibody for that. I think he tried some of ol jocko's ejockulation bait and spilled some on his body part tha the has not seen in years and now has this SDHNC syndrome. It can be seriou, especially in a church type enviroment. Just sayin

[muggsy]

oh my 100percent, u gavbe Muggsy a big ego compliment. Now we will never be able to communicate with him for he is gonna think he kows it all. Oh my what next??? Muggsy as a new mod maybe??? Actually l jocko had told Mugsy about this extractor mod in a PM as he was goin in to a state of depression and I was trying to help him to get there faster!!! He will take credit for alot if ur not careful. Just sayin. He means well but realize, he is not well either. He has PTSD AND ADDH combined. Just sayin.

Did you guys hear something? It sounded like an old swayback Missouri mule breaking wind again. In Cleveland we refer to that as talking out of yer arse. I wouldn't have Bawanna's job if they paid me, Jocko, unless if was a lot of money. What he gets paid for being a moderator and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee from the vending machine. Stick with old muggsy, 100percent, he won't steer you far wrong. (Holy sh!t, a one man fan club.) :)

[smargison]

Yes, I have multiple mags and the result is the same with each. The mags are also not identical models. Yes, it is only on the first round, and I have tried less-than-max mag loads, to no avail. It doesn't make any difference if I release the locked slide or fully rack it. Same results. I'm leery of doing anything to the gun myself, like polishing ramps, while it is still under warranty and there is an outstanding issue. That said, the ramp is so shiny you can see yourself.

So, update today. It is back to Gander, with a specific request to Kahr to replace the entire gun. Gander supports my position and I have written a full report on the gun to Kahr. If it comes back unreplaced, but "fixed", Gander will buy the gun from me used and (assumed) fixed on the spot. I don't know what the price will be, but I've decided that I can't and won't trust this particular unit for carrying. If I get a new one, fine. Even great manufacturers have a lemon every once in a while, and I think I was the random choice this time. I guess what bothers me most is that it was back to Kahr and they returned it "fixed" and working when it wasn't. That is a confidence killer.

[JERRY]

its discouraging to hear that Kahr "fixed" it but the same problem persists.

[muggsy]

If you think that's bad the Chevy dealer fixed my pickup truck four times and it still doesn't run right. :)

[muggsy]

Yes, I have multiple mags and the result is the same with each. The mags are also not identical models. Yes, it is only on the first round, and I have tried less-than-max mag loads, to no avail. It doesn't make any difference if I release the locked slide or fully rack it. Same results. I'm leery of doing anything to the gun myself, like polishing ramps, while it is still under warranty and there is an outstanding issue. That said, the ramp is so shiny you can see yourself.

So, update today. It is back to Gander, with a specific request to Kahr to replace the entire gun. Gander supports my position and I have written a full report on the gun to Kahr. If it comes back unreplaced, but "fixed", Gander will buy the gun from me used and (assumed) fixed on the spot. I don't know what the price will be, but I've decided that I can't and won't trust this particular unit for carrying. If I get a new one, fine. Even great manufacturers have a lemon every once in a while, and I think I was the random choice this time. I guess what bothers me most is that it was back to Kahr and they returned it "fixed" and working when it wasn't. That is a confidence killer.

And if it comes back "unreplaced", but 100% reliable what are you going to do? I suggest you sell it to old muggsy. I'll give you half of what Gander offers you and won't even bat an eye. I'll have that SOB running like a Swiss watch in under an hour. Kids, no patience these days. ;)

[hardluk1]

So was the pistol used or has some age on it? Kahr will send shipping labels unless it an old or used pistol.

[100percent]

What do you think is wrong. The symptoms are pretty specific.



And if it comes back "unreplaced", but 100% reliable what are you going to do? I suggest you sell it to old muggsy. I'll give you half of what Gander offers you and won't even bat an eye. I'll have that SOB running like a Swiss watch in under an hour. Kids, no patience these days. ;)

[muggsy]

What do you think is wrong. The symptoms are pretty specific.

I haven't seen the gun, or what it looks like when it jambs, but then again this isn't rocket science. There are only a handful of things that could be causing the problem and I'd eliminate them one at a time until I found the answer. That's what a man does. Not every problem is resolved with the first attempt. A man understands that.

[smargison]

Well, I'm no kid at 67, but I don't repair guns because I just don't have sufficient experience or knowledge in that. Electronics, computers, woodworking, that's another story! I agree that what bothers me most now is not the fact it is flawed, but the fact that Kahr didn't fix it. It is now a confidence issue. So if it is not replaced I'll see what a Gander offers me for it and perhaps post it for sale here or on Armslist. If they replace it I'll give it another chance and then decide. I wish I could diagnose the problem, but that is just not in my range of knowledge. So now I will get back to designing an architectural lighting controller for a large theatre using multiple microprocessors networked to each other. We all have our special talents...! :)

[Cubby]

Well, I'm no kid at 67, but I don't repair guns because I just don't have sufficient experience or knowledge in that. Electronics, computers, woodworking, that's another story! I agree that what bothers me most now is not the fact it is flawed, but the fact that Kahr didn't fix it. It is now a confidence issue. So if it is not replaced I'll see what a Gander offers me for it and perhaps post it for sale here or on Armslist. If they replace it I'll give it another chance and then decide. I wish I could diagnose the problem, but that is just not in my range of knowledge. So now I will get back to designing an architectural lighting controller for a large theatre using multiple microprocessors networked to each other. We all have our special talents...! :)



The thing is you pay your money and you shouldn't have to work on something to make it work! It should work correctly out of the box. Now saying that, mine has worked without any problems. I only have 400 rounds through it, but not a hiccup. The followers even look good!

[smargison]

OK, got the gun back from Kahr today, will fire it in the next day or two. Their report said they reworked the magwell, and several shoorters fired over 100 rounds without issue. Putting dummy rounds into it this evening showed a significant difference in the bullet attitude relative to the chamber's loading ramp. The bullet is pointed up and into the ramp perfectly, whereas in the past it was pointed more horizontal. The difference is dramatic -- so why didn't they fix it the first time????

Now, in several conversations I've had in the last few weeks with Gander and other gun stores, the report is this. Kahr makes good guns, when they work. But their service and support is about the worst in the industry if you need it. One gun shop owner, with whom I work as an instructor, has just removed all Kahr products and will not sell them anymore because of their "terrible f***g service". And this dude is a a very skilled gunsmith. Gander says the same thing. They hate having to deal with problems on Kahrs because "Kahr is the worst in the industry for service". Had I only known... So if the gun works, fine. I may still GunBroker it unless someone wants to make an offer. If it doesn't work, it will become a training prop in my classes. A very expen$ive prop. I'll report back. In the meantime, any offers???? (Since the CM9 I bought a Ruger LC9 and it is wonderful. I really don't need the CM9 anymore.)

[jocko]

6 posts. HUM, general consensus on this forum is that kahrs service is good to excellent. Why would I not trust anything that Gander Mt says. Not that I have not been in there and heard their bull sh!t. They have more turnover in help at our gander than a whore on the prowl.

Sell the gun Smargison, ur convinced it is a POS, so why bother even shooting it.

[muggsy]

6 posts. HUM, general consensus on this forum is that kahrs service is good to excellent. Why would I not trust anything that Gander Mt says. Not that I have not been in there and heard their bull sh!t. They have more turnover in help at our gander than a whore on the prowl.

Sell the gun Smargison, ur convinced it is a POS, so why bother even shooting it.

Easy, old paint. If Smargison shoots it and it works he might just fall in love with the gun. No need to get yer knickers in a knot. You know what the Doc said about your blood pressure. Not all of us are gunsmiths. Besides it's his problem, not yours. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. The man's going to believe what he wants to believe. A few hundred thousand satisfied Kahr owners aren't going to change his mind. :)

[happypuppy]

I would be dubious of gander. They sell guns and will gladly sell you another. Honestly I had more problems with 2 gen 4 glocks a 19 and a 23 with throwing brass in your face and miscues feeding. It took awhile to get it sorted out but I did.



"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived." -G.S. Patton

[twowheels]

You know you are going to take some shots coming on a kahr forum and trashing the product and service offered by the company.

In limited experience with 3 guns (CW 380 and 45 and CM 9) and one call to CS, I'm not going to throw trash but I will say this. I don't think its unusual to have to do some tinkering, tuning and break in on new pistols from multiple manufacturers, especially when we are talking about subcompacts. It is not all unusual for me to tune triggers, polish parts or change sears, hammers, triggers and springs. Some of these changes are to achieve stone cold reliability and some are to get the guns where I like them.

Re the Kahrs, I really like the way they feel, handle and shoot. However, they do seem to have a number of feeding and extraction issues that happen somewhat randomly. I tore into my 380, replaced springs, installed an new extractor, extractor spring and extractor pin. I had to shorten the pin to remove tension from the extractor. At the end of all of this, and at least 300 rounds, it still would occasionally fail to go into battery or stovepipe with self defense ammo so I traded it off. The experience also led me to trade off the 9, which ran much better but still not quite 100%. It would occasionally fail to feed and stovepipe. The mags seemed suspect even after dismantling and polishing them. I didn't feel 100% confident in it so I traded it off and kept the sig 938, which after hours of tuning is running 100%.

I still have the 45. It has been almost perfect. It feels great in the hand and is a joy to shoot. But, it also occasionally fails to feed. sometimes, a rap on the back of the slide will seat the round. A couple times, it locked up so badly I had to lock back the slide and push the mag out with a tool. This is not acceptable for a carry piece. But I'm going to do some mag tuning and try it again. I also have an xds 45 and I'm only going to keep one of the 45s. At this point, the xds is ahead but I haven't yet made my decision.

I've had more failures with my 3 kahrs than with all the other handguns I've ever owned. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through these other handguns and probably a total of 750 through the kahrs. This does not give me the warm and fuzzies towards kahr's design and/or quality control. I wonder if there are design flaws in their small guns. And my single call to CS was somewhat less helpful than the call I made to Ruger when my lc9 stopped igniting rounds. That call resulted in a new slide being put in the mail to me that day.

There, I will probably draw some negative comments like you drew. But, I am simply describing my experiences as an experienced competitive shooter who is a methodical equipment nut.

[muggsy]

At some point in time every gun will malfunction. If a gun doesn't meet your expectations sell it or trade it and move on. That's what an adult does.

[twowheels]

Couldn't agree more muggsy. I expect the new owners of my departed kahrs to have very good fortune with them.

[happypuppy]

Why tear into them
Yourself ? They have a good warranty. I have not a single issue with mine. The XDS was recalled as was the shield. My 2 Glocks gen 4 threw brass in my face until sent off. They are mechanical devices and as such need to be tweaked sometimes


Just ' bout the action Boss...

[jmtaylo3]

I'm having the same problem and others with my CM40 I just bought. I tried using Speer Gold Dot 165 grain, and Federal 180 grain..both hollow point, all jam after about 12 rounds. I have put 150 rounds through mine and so far the gun is unreliable for self defense. Kaur is sending me an authorization to return it for repair. See "CM40 Problems" I've never seen a pistol perform so poorly right out of the box before.

[twowheels]

Happypuppy, speaking only for myself, I tear into my pieces myself because I enjoy understanding the workings of my them, feel that I can frequently achieve a better result and on a much quicker schedule than can a warranty department, and routinely perform a bunch of tweaking that constitutes personalization as opposed to repair.

[smargison]

Interesting that there are now some others indicating that Kahr has feed issues. Not just me. And the other dealer that has had issues with Kahr service is an independent with a huge load of experience with gunsmithing (you should see his shop!!!) Blaming Gander is inappropriate, at least for the store I go to. So, I shot the gun today with four different FMJ brands, one of them commercial reloads, plus Hornady Critical Defense and Federal Guard Dog. I ran about 400 rounds through the gun. So that makes about 800-900 rounds through the gun so far, by my estimate. More than enough to break it in. The gun is definitely far better than it was, but it still did the bad load twice, and jammed on firing once. Out of 400 rounds that's not bad. But my three Rugers have never, ever, failed. Nor has my Beretta. Nor, for that matter, my cheap HiPoint 45cal. I bought this gun for Personal Defense. I think we can all agree that a carry gun has to be 110% all the time without exception. If I intended this gun to be a paper holer, I'd just take it and use it. But even with the improvement it is obviously not a gun that I can trust, and I'm not a gunsmith so I'm not going to play with it. Now, the PD ammo I used today worked fine, but I only put about 20 rounds of the expensive stuff through it. All the malfunctions were on the FMJ target stuff. SO, I guess I could trust it for carry, but I think I'd like another 200 rounds of that stuff, and that's half the cost of the gun! Not good. Kahr has now had two chances to fix it and make it reliable and they have failed both times. I agree that Kahr has a good reputation, which is why I bought what I thought would be a super reliable gun. But this one, and from what I'm hearing, others like it from Kahr, are not up to their reputation. That said, it IS far far better than it was, and perhaps PD ammo would work perfectly all the time instead of Federal Target ammo. So, if anyone wants to make an offer, I'm listening. I'll even include a wonderful black leather OWB Gould & Goodrich paddle holster custom fit for this gun, as long as the offer is not insanely low. Those here who claim they could fix this gun in a heartbeat, now's your chance to pony up and get what you will make into a great gun.....

[jmtaylo3]

Not bad, 2 out of 400...but I know what you mean about 100% reliability. I don't have the resources to test every brand of ammo out there to see which one works and which brand doesn't... I would expect any top brand Ammo to work flawlessly. I read a lot of the reviews also and based my purchase on the reviews and the small size of the Kaurs. I have a H&K I just shot 200 rounds of everything through, no issues. I just sent mine back to Kakr ,hope they can fix it. One person on this website talked about polishing the extractor..cured his problem. I'm not sure what that means. I'm not sure If tweaking an extractor here and there and adjusting a slide spring is the way to go. I like the small size of the Kaur but I need reliability! I have had a P9 for years that worked great after the break in period. I would think that after 800 rounds that your's should be broken in..but 2 out of 400 is not bad!

[happypuppy]

All mechanical devices are subject to failure. There are just too many variables . A bad mag ammo etc. The closest to 100% percent reliable is a revolver; less variables

"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived." -G.S. Patton

[takem]

Now, in several conversations I've had in the last few weeks with Gander and other gun stores, the report is this. Kahr makes good guns, when they work. But their service and support is about the worst in the industry if you need it. One gun shop owner, with whom I work as an instructor, has just removed all Kahr products and will not sell them anymore because of their "terrible f***g service". And this dude is a a very skilled gunsmith. Gander says the same thing. They hate having to deal with problems on Kahrs because "Kahr is the worst in the industry for service". Had I only known... So if the gun works, fine. I may still GunBroker it unless someone wants to make an offer. If it doesn't work, it will become a training prop in my classes. A very expen$ive prop. I'll report back. In the meantime, any offers???? (Since the CM9 I bought a Ruger LC9 and it is wonderful. I really don't need the CM9 anymore.)

Careful, Jocko gets his feelings hurt easily. You'd think he's the owner of Kahr.

[jocko]

excuse me that is a bull sh!t statement.

[jocko]

excuse me that is a bull sh!t statement.

The good members know me better than that, so I need not defend myself to you:amflag: