PM9 interesting jam with TulAmmo BrassMaxx

[bobmalooga99]

Had some interesting jams at Ben Avery today with my PM9 that I've never experienced before. Basically a failure to feed. Upon firing, the spent case ejected properly, the gun cycled, and the new rounds got caught on the way into the chamber leaving the slide about 80% of the way back to full battery. A very strong racking of the slide (almost needed a hammer) was required to get the unfired round out of the chamber.

Kind of similar to this (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3050&highlight=chamber+battery+round+stuck) previous thread, except the OP mentioned scratches on the case of the unfired round. In my case, the rounds were badly crimped at one single point on the case mouth and almost looked a little bent (pics below).

These jams occurred while using TulAmmo Brass Maxx from Walmart. I had 3 instances of this in the 100 round can that went through the pistol. My PM9 has about 500 rounds through it with no prior issues and is always cared for after firing. Mechanically speaking, the only possibilities that come to mind are polishing the feed ramp or perhaps replacing the recoil spring assembly, but both of those appear to be in good working order. I'm fairly confident it is the ammo, but please let me know if you have any thoughts or similar experiences.

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg521/bobmalooga99/DSC_0003_zpsf3ef0a7d.jpg

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg521/bobmalooga99/DSC_0001_zps36d0c4fa.jpg

[CJB]

I'm gonna out on a wild limb....

I think the ammo got caught by the rim of the extracted case.

There's almost no way the new round got snagged on the front of the feed ramp to do that. Almost next to impossible, as the ramp is very far down.

The new round "may" have snagged the top of the barrel hood.... its the only place it could catch.... but again.... a really hard sell to explain how that happened.

Those new rounds look like they're just a little bit thick or wide at the case mouth...maybe its just me thinking that though.

[bobmalooga99]

I think the ammo got caught by the rim of the extracted case.

Wow. Is that mechanically possible?

[Rubb]

I would say the ammo came as pictured and the PM9 had nothing to do with it.

[7ekken]

make sure your spring in the magazine is in good condition... clean out the magazine 100% and try again.

[bobmalooga99]

I would say the ammo came as pictured and the PM9 had nothing to do with it.

Interesting theory. This seems unlikely, but to be fair and keep an open mind, I inspected the remaining 200 rounds. No marks, dents, scratches or bending of any kind, just standard factory ammo. A 3% defect rate in quality control would be high even for TulAmmo.

[bobmalooga99]

make sure your spring in the magazine is in good condition... clean out the magazine 100% and try again.

Ok, you stumped a bit here. How would the mag spring cause this?

[CJB]

Wow. Is that mechanically possible?

Dunno, but its more likely than the edge of the ramp!

[berettabone]

I'm gonna out on a wild limb....

I think the ammo got caught by the rim of the extracted case.

There's almost no way the new round got snagged on the front of the feed ramp to do that. Almost next to impossible, as the ramp is very far down.

The new round "may" have snagged the top of the barrel hood.... its the only place it could catch.... but again.... a really hard sell to explain how that happened.

Those new rounds look like they're just a little bit thick or wide at the case mouth...maybe its just me thinking that though.
Don't know about any of the rest, but the round pictured DOES look a bit wide at the mouth ala " no Crimp"

[bobmalooga99]

Don't know about any of the rest, but the round pictured DOES look a bit wide at the mouth ala " no Crimp"

That may be. I'll try to borrow a caliper and see if it's true compared to other factory ammo. However, if a wide mouth was the issue, why would it crimp in one spot on the case mouth?

[Ikeo74]

I agree with "Factory Defect" theory. Think about this: If it had been caused by anything to do with your gun, the bend in the case would bent over outward. If it was a factory defect while inserting the bullet into the case, the bend would be inward. That bullet appears to be inward and down inside the case. 1 in 200 would be .5 percent defects.

[berettabone]

MAYBE.................the same reason that the shell casings ejected from Kahr's usually have that dent on the casing from the extractor.

[100percent]

Did your ammo stop at the extractor?

[Ikeo74]

If you can post another picture with the case laying down but center the bent area in the picture so we can look for damage to the bullet. If your gun caused it the bullet would be gouged. If the factory caused it the bullet will not have a visable gouge.

[Ikeo74]

MAYBE.................the same reason that the shell casings ejected from Kahr's usually have that dent on the casing from the extractor.
The extractor does not cause the flat dent on the fired case mouth. It is caused by the case rubbing the ejection port on it's way out.

[bobmalooga99]

I agree with "Factory Defect" theory. Think about this: If it had been caused by anything to do with your gun, the bend in the case would bent over outward. If it was a factory defect while inserting the bullet into the case, the bend would be inward. That bullet appears to be inward and down inside the case.

Perhaps difficult to see in the picture, but the bend is neither inward nor outward, it is just pinched. There is no fold of the brass.


1 in 200 would be .5 percent defects.

There were 3 out of 100.

[bobmalooga99]

MAYBE.................the same reason that the shell casings ejected from Kahr's usually have that dent on the casing from the extractor.

The extractor would be moving in the opposite direction when loading the round.

[bobmalooga99]

The extractor does not cause the flat dent on the fired case mouth. It is caused by the case rubbing the ejection port on it's way out.

Right.

[bobmalooga99]

If you can post another picture with the case laying down but center the bent area in the picture so we can look for damage to the bullet. If your gun caused it the bullet would be gouged. If the factory caused it the bullet will not have a visable gouge.

There is visible gouge exactly opposite the deformation of the brass. I'll post a pic shortly.

[bobmalooga99]

Did your ammo stop at the extractor?

I'm sorry I don't understand the question, but the round was almost fully chambered and the slide was about 80% into battery.

[bobmalooga99]

If you can post another picture with the case laying down but center the bent area in the picture so we can look for damage to the bullet. If your gun caused it the bullet would be gouged. If the factory caused it the bullet will not have a visable gouge.

Here is a pic of the dent/gouge in the bullet, exactly opposite the deformation of the brass. It was challenging to get this on film, but you can see the dent just to the right of the center line.

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg521/bobmalooga99/DSC_0016_zps382794b4.jpg

[TucsonMTB]

I would say the ammo came as pictured and the PM9 had nothing to do with it.
Winnah, right here!

Yeah. I agree the issue is quite likely with the ammo itself.

Several years ago, we discovered a similar looking round while loading the magazine to shoot a completely different brand of semi-automatic pistol. We were shooting some "cost effective" Federal American Eagle .380 ACP FMJ ammo at the time.

CJB has significant experience loading ammo on automatic machinery that he designed and maintained personally. His equipment would be very unlikely to produce such poor product. The American Eagle round we discovered looked very much like yours right out of the box. The same case lot of ammo also contained what I believe was an over charged round and did some damage to the pistol as well.

Needless to say, we put Federal American Eagle on the "do not purchase" list. I suspect TulAmmo belongs on that same list as well.

Thank you for sharing the cautionary account of your experience, sir.


Had some interesting jams at Ben Avery today with my PM9 that I've never experienced before. . . .

These jams occurred while using TulAmmo Brass Maxx from Walmart. . . .

I'm fairly confident it is the ammo, but please let me know if you have any thoughts or similar experiences.

http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg521/bobmalooga99/DSC_0003_zpsf3ef0a7d.jpg

[bobmalooga99]

Yeah. I agree the issue is quite likely with the ammo itself.

This seems to be a common theme so far. I'm not opposed to this theory, it just seems so unlikely to have 3 bad rounds in a can of 100. Or maybe I just want to believe it is unlikely for a factory to have quality control that poor.

I think CJB's thought was that the round got caught on the spent case, but he did say he was feeling adventurous with that theory.

I guess the only scientific thing to do is fire the other 200 rounds that do not appear to have any defects and see if the jam can be reproduced. Regardless of whether the ammo is bad or the PM9 doesn't like it, I won't be buying any more. May as well get a fun little experiment out of the other 2 cans.

[Rubb]

This seems to be a common theme so far. I'm not opposed to this theory, it just seems so unlikely to have 3 bad rounds in a can of 100. Or maybe I just want to believe it is unlikely for a factory to have quality control that poor.

I think CJB's thought was that the round got caught on the spent case, but he did say he was feeling adventurous with that theory.

I guess the only scientific thing to do is fire the other 200 rounds that do not appear to have any defects and see if the jam can be reproduced. Regardless of whether the ammo is bad or the PM9 doesn't like it, I won't be buying any more. May as well get a fun little experiment out of the other 2 cans.


Ammo is not produced one can at a time, its produced in large lots.
If you look around you'll find many stories of bad factory ammo.

Here's mine...2 out of 50.
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8856

[muggsy]

I'd check the thickness of the case rim. It looks to me like the rim didn't slip under the extractor properly and the case being tilted caught on the edge of the chamber.