Why I Think The CM9 Shoots Low/Left

[CC Hoosier]

If you look from the front of the barrel, you will notice that the barrel is not true to the slide. It's off-center low and left. Since the sights are mounted on the slide, it will be almost impossible to dial it in perfectly. I'm thinking of laser sights for this gun. I LOVE this little gun for conceal carry, but it was made to be used in defense up close and personal.

[deadeye]

I thought the same thing until I practiced and then practiced a bunch more. Wow, all of a sudden the same gun with the same sights is giving me 4" patterns at 25'. With a little advice and thought I realized it wasn't the gun - I just didn't know how to shoot it.

[b4uqzme]

deadeye is dead on.

[muggsy]

The way that you are pulling the trigger is causing the gun to shoot low and left. When the trigger breaks the pressure exerted by your trigger finger should be perpendicular to the bore axis. Shooting low is either caused by using an incorrect sight picture or anticipating recoil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdXmcdB5WE&list=UU64sOqMTpNhUy5_SzxfWGoQ

[wyntrout]

Parallel would be a better word... moving in the same direction at a constant distance.

Definition: extending in the same direction, equidistant at all points, and never converging or diverging.

Wynn:)

[garyb]

If you look from the front of the barrel, you will notice that the barrel is not true to the slide. It's off-center low and left. Since the sights are mounted on the slide, it will be almost impossible to dial it in perfectly. I'm thinking of laser sights for this gun. I LOVE this little gun for conceal carry, but it was made to be used in defense up close and personal.



Before you draw a conclusion, please try carefully benching it. If you still find it off, you can adjust things. I did initially find my PM off low left. The low was me, the left was the sight alignment. Also try some different ammo. I went to a custom reload and adjusted my rear sight to correct my zero. Part or all of the issue could be you getting used to the trigger. A good rest on a bench will help you uncover your situation. Take your time. Try different ammo. Adjust your sights where necessary. The laser is a good tool too and I recommend the CTL..., but it will not replace your sights...so try to get them on zero. Good luck.

[340pd]

I see your low left issue all day every shift I have at our range. Practice dry firing by having someone load a dummy round somewhere in your magazine. You will immediately see why you are dropping the muzzle.

One immediate help may be to try more or less finger on the trigger. Otherwise determination and practice will alleviate your problem.

[muggsy]

Parallel would be a better word... moving in the same direction at a constant distance.

Definition: extending in the same direction, equidistant at all points, and never converging or diverging.

Wynn:)

Wynn, I stand corrected. The trigger finger must be perpendicular to the bore axis when the trigger breaks to exert pressure parallel to the bore axis. My words weren't very well chosen.

[Tilos]

From what little I know, the barrel points down because the gun is moving up in recoil when the bullet exits the muzzle.
The is to keep the front site short too...look at a revolver front site.
If it's left or right, I don't have a clue...gHetto grip maybe:rolleyes:
:D

[muggsy]

Hey Tilos, am I on your ignore list? Don't answer if you can't read this. :)

[CC Hoosier]

So what I have learned here is that the barrel of a semi-auto hand gun does NOT have to be parallel with the sights on the slide. The sights on a revolver are always parallel with the barrel and "ghetto" is really spelled "getto." Too many smart azzes with not enough smarts on this thread.

[Bawanna]

None of us would do well in a spelling bee that's for sure.

I believe it was deadeye that supplied the best info for your consideration. Nearly every new Kahr shooter shoots low and left if they are right handed and low and right if they are left handed.

We've seen this many many many times. A little trigger time and it will come back to center in nearly every case.

We do have a few smartazzes (don't think that's spelled right neither) but we also have some wicked smart folks and some of those are smart azzes too.

I'd lean heavy on the smiley face button till you get acclimated.

[CC Hoosier]

Ok, I guess I just corrected my left issue by drifting the rear sight to the right. Oops now I can actually hit an 8 inch paper target at 21 feet and most of the time do the same at 45 feet. That's crazy how adjusting the sights work that way, isn't it?

[CC Hoosier]

Constructive criticism for someone new to shooting a Kahr, I can deal with, But insisting that it's impossible for Kahr sights to be off, is ideologically insane. I love my new CM9 and I love my Glock 27. They both have their faults because they are both built by humans with faults. I can understand brand loyalty, but both Kahr and Glock are NOT perfect. (despite Glock's logo and their fan base). Ditto for Kahr.

[Bawanna]

Constructive criticism for someone new to shooting a Kahr, I can deal with, But insisting that it's impossible for Kahr sights to be off, is ideologically insane. I love my new CM9 and I love my Glock 27. They both have their faults because they are both built by humans with faults. I can understand brand loyalty, but both Kahr and Glock are NOT perfect. (despite Glock's logo and their fan base). Ditto for Kahr.

Funny I reread this entire thread and I completely don't see a single post that says it's impossible for Kahr sights to be off, not one. I hope you noted how far you drifted your sights so you can put them back when you become accustomed to the long trigger pull. Or yours could very well really be off in which case you done real good getting her dialed in.
At 45 ft I'm probably more accurate with rocks than a pistol but I have some good days.

I really don't see where your bitterness is coming from here. I'd slip off the cork boots and slip on some bunny slippers.

We got both Kahr fans and Glock fans here. We all agree not all of them or any of the others are always perfect. Part of the challenge I guess.

[than137]

I don't think the barrel is technically pointing down. It just appears to be because of the cut in the slide that accommodates the tilting action of the barrel. If you look at almost any modern handgun, it will slightly appear that the barrel points down as there's a small gap above. It's a bit less noticeable on Glock barrels because the barrel extends a bit beyond the front of the slide but it is there.

HK USP:
http://i.imgur.com/mYSWnRv.jpg?3

I'd say do a bench rested test before you ever adjust anything. It's great that you are back on target, but there is a chance that it was your trigger pull. That's not to say the sights didn't need adjustment, but it's better to check.

[CC Hoosier]

I'm not bitter. I just think it's funny when followers of certain gun manufacturers become cult-like. I drifted the sights left on my Glock as well. For me, the elevation and windage on the Glock is dead on. The Kahr still shoots low (for me). I f adjusting the sights allow me to shoot better, I prefer that over training your eyes or trigger pull to accommodate the manufacturer's imperfection if it indeed exists. I'm no marksman at all. If I can hit an 8" target more often then not at 15 yards, then I'm happy. But if I can hardly hit an 8" target at 7 yards, then what am I doing with a handgun in the 1st place? Then I'm fricken dangerous!! Sorry about sounding bitter. If someone jabs me, I have a tendency to jab back instead of shying away. PS: I hate the trigger pull on the CM9, but I LOVE the size, dependability, looks, carry-ability, and power. I will carry this weapon every day of summer! I even carry this one around the house forgetting I'm wearing it!

[Bawanna]

Your already rapidly becoming a Kahr fan. You'll get used to that long trigger. I've seen countless times guys hating the trigger to not so bad to the best there is.

I've overtime gotten accustomed to it. For the size and purpose for my needs that trigger is a good thing. Very forgiving.

It's not the 1911 that rides on my hip for speed and accuracy but it's a dandy back up or primary on the rare occasions when the 1911 can't come along.

[CC Hoosier]

I admit the trigger pull on the Kahr can easily pull the muzzle down. After shooting the Glock for hundreds of rounds, I find the trigger pull on the Kahr hard to get used to. I almost left the Glock at home and shot 120 more rounds through the Kahr using the techniques suggested on this forum and YouTube videos. If I train myself for Kahr's trigger pull, then I would have to retrain myself for Glock's. It's easier for me to adjust the sights instead. I'm just an "old" creature-of-habit who finds it hard to change so I tend to change other variables whenever possible. So far, drifting the sights on both guns has worked satisfactorily for me. I'm sure I can work out shooting low with the Kahr by focusing on the front sight more instead of lining it up consciously with the rear. My CM9 barrel is not only facing down, but also to the left position unlike your pic. Thank you for providing the pic, btw. Believe me, I STILL love my Kahr!!!

[Tilos]

OP:
Sorry for posting the truth about the barrel position in the slide, poor spelling, and the stab at humor:o
Sometime science trumps reasoning;)
I never said the sites on a revolver were parallel, they're not.
Turn a revolver, your Kahr, or even your Glock, upside down and rest it on the sites (I know sights:eek:).
Put something in the bore that's a reasonable close fit (pencil) and tell me it's parallel to the sites?
Look at all the Ruger MarkIII 22 autos as the barrel length gets longer, the front site gets TALLER...why is that:001_huh:.
Sorry your logic dosen't trump science and we could have been way more condescending, I was surprised you went right to name calling as a newb with less than a dozen posts.
Yet another name to add to the ignore list:D
Edited to further vent my displeasure with the name calling and I hope your Mickey Finn'ed soon.
:p

[CC Hoosier]

:DLOL....I forgive all of you Kahr-loving cultists anyway! I guess living within 4 miles of a ghetto with shootings on a weekly basis and people talking about putting caps in other people's azzes using the "ghetto-grip." hit me the wrong way. I guess I should thank those ghetto-dwellers. If it wasn't for them, I would have never purchased my CM9!:amflag:

[smokersteve]

My cm9 works real well for summer carry - front right pocket in a sticky holster.
It's all I've been shooting for about 3 months...until today...went out shooting with the Glock 19.
50 rounds of Tula steel and 100 wwb. What was I thinking going 3 months without shooting the Glock. What a blast and I shoot it very well compared to the CM9.

CC Hoosier, I prefer the Glock trigger also. Hopefully they come out with a single stack 9mm the same size as the 42. I would sell the cm9 fairly quickly if that happened.

[O'Dell]

My PM9 doesn't shoot low and left but it doesn't shoot great groups either at least not with me pulling the trigger. My recently sold CW40, my CW45, and my MK40 are all much better with the same operator.

[CC Hoosier]

I'd be very happy with a group like that at 7 yards with my cm9. Hell, I had trouble hitting the 8" target with it at 7 yds the first outing! I know my unpolished techniques absolutely suck, but shooting the Glock with the same rookie techniques, I could put it in a 4" circle at 7 yards. Drifting the sight helped a bunch. I wear bifocals, so I'm dangerous anyway.:behindsofa:

[CC Hoosier]

I got very accustomed to the glock then purchased the cm9. It's like learning to drive a stick when all you've driven is an automatic.:mad:

[berettabone]

:popcorn:

[O'Dell]

Did he just say the "G" word? :eek:

[b4uqzme]

Yeah, I shoot different guns with varying degrees of success too. Here's a group with a CZ at 7 yards. Yet they all have their purposes and I feel very comfortable that Kahrs will serve me well in a SD scenario. Plenty accurate enough and simple to operate (to help mitigate the chance of a mistake/error).

I think you've been offered up a lot of friendly and wise advice. Hope some of it works out for you.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ studying the picture I gotta admit that 8/12 were low and/or left :o

[CC Hoosier]

I heard the CZ is a VERY accurate pistol. Yes, I agree I was offered some very good advice from some slightly sarcastic members. I have already taken it and ran with it to the range, today. OK, It's me, not the gun. I pull the muzzle down while pulling the long trigger because with the ultra-thin grip, my forearm muscles contract a bit more than grasping a thicker grip. I wasn't prepared for this challenge. Thanks to the members on this forum, I am now aware of what's happening. The Baby Glock is such a bulldog in comparison. I am determined to shoot the CM9 with respectable results. I will NOT be defeated!:hungry:

[CC Hoosier]

So you may also blame the gun to save face if you like. It's perfectly fine to do so.:cool:

[timmy]

I thought the same thing until I practiced and then practiced a bunch more. Wow, all of a sudden the same gun with the same sights is giving me 4" patterns at 25'. With a little advice and thought I realized it wasn't the gun - I just didn't know how to shoot it.

Same here i bought snap caps and practice a few nights out of the week dry firing it jas helped alot i have gone from shooting low and left when i first got my cm9 to just level with the 10 ring and a hair left

[happypuppy]

Mine shot low. I broke it in with white box 115 grain loads. Is was about six inches low. The pistol it's small and my finger was cramped a bit

I went to the federal 124 grain +p load and used the middle finger pad as I do with a revolver. No problems now. It's dead on accurate

"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived." -G.S. Patton

[b4uqzme]

...from some slightly sarcastic members....:hungry:

I wore the sarcastic smiley out I used it so much. :rolleyes: Hey, I got one more out of it. :)

Once you been on here awhile, you will probably find it's the humor that makes this a great place (sarcasm included). That and we really are respectful of one another...even when we are busting ba11s.

[CC Hoosier]

I'm learning my friend. This really is a nice and informative forum. Thanks for all the tips. I'll be working on them. Have a great weekend! For me, I work the weekend shift, but it's nice to have 4 days off to play!:cheer2:

[leftysixty]

A lot of folks fail to understand that a Kahr trigger needs to be worked the same way that you would work a double action revolver (firing double action:rolleyes:)

That is the way it was designed to function. If you try to use the tip of your finger (like you would on a 1911 or glock) you will move the gun as you make the pull.

Don't try to stage the trigger or guess when it will fire. Just pull it through, release then repeat.

I do think that the smaller Kahrs are harder to grip than a similar sized revolver.

Sorry for the long post. I could show you in person way easier than I can write it out.

In short, shoot it like a revolver, not like a glock :D:D

You will learn to shoot it well :D:D:D

[muggsy]

kahr pistols weren't manufactured for bullseye shooting. They are manufactured for SHTF situations. They are accurate enough for the job. Most of the time I can keep all of my shots within a 3" circle at 21' rapid fire. How accurate does a defensive pistol have to be. Learn to shoot it and you'll love it.

[C0untZer0]

I've got a 10 round shot group at 21 feet under 1.5" Seven rounds went through the same 3/4" hole.


The shot group is left, but it's not low. I don't use 6 O'clock hold with my CM9 - I treat it like it has combat sights

[timmy]

i just had a set of dawsons sights put on my cm9 and went shooting today and it helped with my groups

[Southerngunner]

I keep a copy of one of these with the rest of my targets. It may help.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608045671391039472&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

[thomjb]

Agree with Muggsy, have had the same problem over the years.
Instructor proved it to me, had me hold the pistol and sight it on the target and he pulled the trigger, was right where I was aiming....

[muggsy]

I'm not bitter. I just think it's funny when followers of certain gun manufacturers become cult-like. I drifted the sights left on my Glock as well. For me, the elevation and windage on the Glock is dead on. The Kahr still shoots low (for me). I f adjusting the sights allow me to shoot better, I prefer that over training your eyes or trigger pull to accommodate the manufacturer's imperfection if it indeed exists. I'm no marksman at all. If I can hit an 8" target more often then not at 15 yards, then I'm happy. But if I can hardly hit an 8" target at 7 yards, then what am I doing with a handgun in the 1st place? Then I'm fricken dangerous!! Sorry about sounding bitter. If someone jabs me, I have a tendency to jab back instead of shying away. PS: I hate the trigger pull on the CM9, but I LOVE the size, dependability, looks, carry-ability, and power. I will carry this weapon every day of summer! I even carry this one around the house forgetting I'm wearing it!

So now the gun shoots to point of aim in spite of your poor trigger control. I guess that's why they put training wheels on bicycles. Some day you'll learn to ride. What are you going to do if you're forced to pick up a gun that hasn't been adjusted to compensate for your shooting errors. All Kahr pistols should shoot to point of aim at normal combat range as they come from the factory. Every Kahr firearm is test fired before it leaves the factory. Now that wasn't a jab. That was a punch to the gut . :) P.S. It's a poor shooter who blames his gun.

[gmcjetpilot]

Speaking of trigger does anyone know of a CM9 trigger kit of some instructions to disassemble and polish moving parts.


To echo I shoot the CM9 just fine, but it is not ego stroking, like shooting my Glock 26.... I agree if Glock makes a single stack 9mm derivative of their new .380 single stack, I will likely get it.


As far as triggers for sub compact 9mm the Kahr is pretty good out the box. Go shoot a Ruger LC9..... it is long, stacks and the pull is not light. However they do make kits for these guns to reduce travel and pull.... and eliminate the stacking (where the pull force changes as you pull).

[jocko]

So now the gun shoots to point of aim in spite of your poor trigger control. I guess that's why they put training wheels on bicycles. Some day you'll learn to ride. What are you going to do if you're forced to pick up a gun that hasn't been adjusted to compensate for your shooting errors. All Kahr pistols should shoot to point of aim at normal combat range as they come from the factory. Every Kahr firearm is test fired before it leaves the factory. Now that wasn't a jab. That was a punch to the gut . :) P.S. It's a poor shooter who blames his gun.

my fokking fguns don't shoot where I aim. It can't be ol jocko:Amflag2:

[jocko]

Speaking of trigger does anyone know of a CM9 trigger kit of some instructions to disassemble and polish moving parts.


To echo I shoot the CM9 just fine, but it is not ego stroking, like shooting my Glock 26.... I agree if Glock makes a single stack 9mm derivative of their new .380 single stack, I will likely get it.


As far as triggers for sub compact 9mm the Kahr is pretty good out the box. Go shoot a Ruger LC9..... it is long, stacks and the pull is not light. However they do make kits for these guns to reduce travel and pull.... and eliminate the stacking (where the pull force changes as you pull).

kit is needed. damn few moving part sin kahrs trigger system. Most find that rounds down range will do all the smoothinbg u ever need or will notice. U can go to wolffs gunsprings and buy the 5# dro in striker spring which will do very nicely. Other than that unless u get a gritty kahr, lube and rounds will do the trick. I think karhs triger system is the sootheest of any gun maker gn right out of the box. U can stage most semi'
s, kahrs are just smooth right up util the bang thing happens. How can we make that any better??? Just sayin

[CC Hoosier]

I'm sorry, Tilos. You are right. I became defensive and disrespectful to the veterans on this thread without going through initiation first. Do I need to walk through a line of baseball bats or something first before I'm allowed to be condescending as well?....just kidding.......wait........too soon?......sorry again........:D

[jocko]

fear not hoosier, ur OK, we "veterans" seem to think we can say things and it is gospel, so sometimes we (myself ) can get over bearing. I try hard to be a better person every day than Muggsy, course just waking up every day is a better person than muggsy, if u get my point, He can also be hard on this forum but his heart is in the right place, just that sometimes it skips a few beats. These "vets" are really knowledeable on this forum, some of the best guys I have ever worked with but realize also, we have different personalities. Not all can be as congenatal as ol jocko, certinly none ae as knowledeable, but they are trying. so drink a beer on ol jocko and give us anutter try. Just sayin

Gotta love those Cub fans, I et most of them if u trace their ancestry back it would go to he familyies of Muggsy and Downtown, as they are true loosers, and seem to like it that way. Just sayin

[CC Hoosier]

pssst, hey Jocko, don't tell any of those vets that I really appreciate all the info they gave me. I've been using it at the range and it just might be working for me a bit. I also have been working on shooting with both eyes open (tip from youtube). So this old dog can learn a few new tricks even from other old dogs (vets) on this forum. Now if I can just stop my arthritic wrists from shaking, I might be able to make a hole in a 25 yard target. :59:

[muggsy]

my fokking fguns don't shoot where I aim. It can't be ol jocko:Amflag2:

In you case it's gremlins Jocko. Either that or your cross-eyed. Might even be that your cockeyed shown by the amount of typing errors that you can squeeze into one sentence. But then again, I don't want to be accused of being too critical. :)

[muggsy]

pssst, hey Jocko, don't tell any of those vets that I really appreciate all the info they gave me. I've been using it at the range and it just might be working for me a bit. I also have been working on shooting with both eyes open (tip from youtube). So this old dog can learn a few new tricks even from other old dogs (vets) on this forum. Now if I can just stop my arthritic wrists from shaking, I might be able to make a hole in a 25 yard target. :59:

Well CC you passed the trial by fire. I have to admit that on occasion I do have a hair trigger, especially when someone bad mouths Kahr. I am a forgiving soul except when it comes to that old reprobate Jocko. His heart would be in the right place, too, if he had one. :)

[b4uqzme]

I'm sorry, Tilos. You are right. I became defensive and disrespectful to the veterans on this thread without going through initiation first. Do I need to walk through a line of baseball bats or something first before I'm allowed to be condescending as well?....just kidding.......wait........too soon?......sorry again........:D

Wedgies....many many wedgies. Just sayin'. :p

[CC Hoosier]

Wedgies....many many wedgies. Just sayin'. :p

oh..oh...with my thong underwear, that would be painful..:eek: I prefer the ball bats. :19:

[pwguy26]

I am not a very experienced pistol guy but recently took a concealed carry class and a couple of weeks ago I took a defensive pistol class.

During the cc class I found myself shooting low left with my old Smith & Wesson pistol and researched why that might be. That particular S&W has a horrible trigger, which I realized when I purchased a more modern carry gun.

After all this I purchased a Glock 19, which I shoot much better with.

During the defensive pistol exercises one of the participants started complaining that the sights were off on his gun. He was shooting low and left. From my research I knew what was coming and just sat back and watched. One of the instructors took shots with the pistol, which were right on the center of the target. Hard to argue much with that, and the guy didn't. He accepted that he needed to improve his technique.

[b4uqzme]

I am not a very experienced pistol guy but recently took a concealed carry class and a couple of weeks ago I took a defensive pistol class.

During the cc class I found myself shooting low left with my old Smith & Wesson pistol and researched why that might be. That particular S&W has a horrible trigger, which I realized when I purchased a more modern carry gun.

After all this I purchased a Glock 19, which I shoot much better with.

During the defensive pistol exercises one of the participants started complaining that the sights were off on his gun. He was shooting low and left. From my research I knew what was coming and just sat back and watched. One of the instructors took shots with the pistol, which were right on the center of the target. Hard to argue much with that, and the guy didn't. He accepted that he needed to improve his technique.

Good post...all except that part about the Glock :rolleyes:

[muggsy]

On a good day when I've cleaned my bifocals I can keep all of my shots inside a three inch circle at 21' shooting rapid fire. My good days seem to be fewer and further apart lately. Across a card table I hardly ever miss. :)

[jocko]

wow 21 inches, that is sure soe good shooting muggsy. Ur really talented. Just sayin

Lets see 4" barrel at 21 inches, leaves u 17 actual inches. I am lost for words!!