View Full Version : Shoot first, call 911 later.
muggsy
06-16-2014, 05:31 AM
Let the debate begin.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/shoot-first-call-911-911-call-video/
Longitude Zero
06-16-2014, 06:29 AM
IF you have a precursor event that tells you that trouble is coming, and you can dial 911 and drop the phone and let it be your recorder. If caught flat footed deal with the situation and call 911 when the event has concluded.
muggsy
06-16-2014, 06:36 AM
I like the idea of having back-up, but in several cases 911 calls have been used to prosecute home owners. In the event of a home invasion I'm going to defend myself first and call 911 later. I'm also going to be very careful what I tell the operator.
Longitude Zero
06-16-2014, 07:25 AM
If you conduct yourself properly the recording can be your friend. Truth is in the light...Lies prefer the darkness.
IMHO Most of the prosecuted homeowners messed up and got what they deserved. It is VERY RARE that the truth hurts an honest use of force.
100percent
06-16-2014, 07:48 AM
I live in an home that the phone doesn't work unless I am on the porch. I don't think that I am going to dance around looking for a phone signal.
Most anything that I say can and will be used against me, the best thing I can do is survive. Hard to say if everything that I do under moments of extreme stress are going to look 100percent to a courtroom who have the luxury of seeing events unfold in slow motion.
But since I live in Missouri in a rural environment it is my castle and I am the master.
JohnR
06-16-2014, 08:13 AM
I read a lot of scenarios on forums where people say they'll call 911 with one hand, drive away with the other, and fend off the attack with their left foot or something, instead of focusing 100% of stopping the attack. I can't believe the person in the news story got a recording when calling 911!
knkali
06-16-2014, 10:00 AM
Let the debate begin.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/shoot-first-call-911-911-call-video/
Interesting in that my response to a home invasion has changed because of a long ago thread that you and I had. In it IIRC you rec arming yourself in your home, finding a safe place call 911 and wait for the cavalry. If the cavalry hasn't come and the BG is trying to get at you, then kill the SOb(s). I am not sure if you are still of that mindset. While everyone's scenario is a just a little different and the one with the link is, are you still an anti Rambo guy?
wyntrout
06-16-2014, 12:47 PM
:boink: Calvary as in the biblical hill, or as in a cavalry charge... armed military on horseback... or motorized attack??
Wynn:D
muggsy
06-16-2014, 01:03 PM
Interesting in that my response to a home invasion has changed because of a long ago thread that you and I had. In it IIRC you rec arming yourself in your home, finding a safe place call 911 and wait for the Calvary. If the Calvary hasn't come and the BG is trying to get at you, then kill the SOb(s). I am not sure if you are still of that mindset. While everyone's scenario is a just a little different and the one with the link is, are you still an anti Rambo guy?
That scenario only applied when in the middle of the night I hear a noise. Someone kicking in my door when I'm up and about calls for another response all together. Since I armed when up and about and not likely to have time to make it to a safe room, or to call 911, I'll shoot first and call later. There is also an alternate plan B to every scenario. Since I'm a sedentary old man I have time to think about these things. :)
getsome
06-16-2014, 01:05 PM
The following is from a firearms magazine article by attorney Jason Squires who has defended many firearms related cases....His suggestions come from real life court room jury cases and make sense to me....
1. Never cross the threshold of your home with a gun in your hand...In law a detached garage or other out building on your property but not part of the physical residence are called "curtilage" and generally the law affords less protection to curtilage as they usually contain possessions rather than humans in danger so in other words if you hear someone stealing your car at 2am and you go out to confront them and it ends up in gunfire you're likely to be in legal trouble....His advice is to call 911 and get the Police involved and to stay inside.....
2. Call 911...He says to ALWAYS call 911 before doing anything....Jurors always ask "Why didn't he call 911" It's almost implied that in a civilized society a law abiding citizen doesn't take the law into their own hands but calls in the Police to do the dirty work...
3. Proportionality....He says not to bring a gun to a shouting match but to go inside and get away from the confrontation and calmly call 911 and let the Police sort it out because if you don't and the argument turns into a fist fight which escalates into gunfire, somebodys going to the hospital or morgue and sombodys going to prison...
4. Be Afraid....If you're not afraid for yours or a loved one's life you shouldn't unholster your weapon....Every jurisdiction recognizes the right of self defense but you must be able to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you were in fear of death to use a firearm and have a normal jury find you innocent and the shooting self defense...Remember most jury members wont be "gun friendly"....
5. No Cars...While this rule is unpopular he says the best course of action is to use the accelerator to get away from danger if at all possible then when a safe distance from the danger to call 911 and report the incident...He says in his experience a jury almost always associates a gun in a car or when a firearm is used in a traffic situation with "road rage" and the defendant is often seen as a participant in the situation no matter what really happened....He goes on to say that witnesses rarely come forward after seeing an incident in traffic and most people don't want to get involved which leaves the defendant in a he says, she says situation when the Police arrive after a shooting....
6. Last thing he says and this really makes sense if you stop and think about it is instead of buying additional weapons, holsters, magazines or ammo to reserve some money to seek legal advice and to have an attorney who is knowledgeable about firearms defense on retainer if God Forbid you ever really have to use your weapon to defend yourself....George Zimmerman used a pistol to save his life but his attorney and legal team saved him from life in prison...
Take the previous legal advice for what it's worth but it is something to think about because this fellow does this for a living and has seen what really happens in a court of law and how juries think when a firearm is involved in a self defense shooting case........Your mileage may vary
Bawanna
06-16-2014, 01:14 PM
Won't be no lawyer piggy bank in my house. Everything you said makes good sense.
I always say let common sense be your guide. When you mention lawyer, all that goes right out the window.
Course they do it for a living, probably has 6 cars, 4 boats and a mansion while I drive a 14 year old van and need to start a piggy bank for him.
getsome
06-16-2014, 01:32 PM
You are correct again oh wise one...Common sense is your best bet...I don't have a lawyer fund either, heck I can hardly afford the bullets to shoot the bad guy with much less have an attorney available on speed dial....I don't necessarily agree with the no guns in the car deal either because I always have a gun on me where it's legal to do so and I had to use a car to get to those places so if I'm in the car so is my pistol....I do see his point in not letting road anger get out of hand to the point of gun play though....I just smile and say thank you to the nuts that cut me off and tell me I'm number one ....Works way mo betta
knkali
06-16-2014, 01:35 PM
:boink: Calvary as in the biblical hill, or as in a cavalry charge... armed military on horseback... or motorized attack??
Wynn:D
Thanks Wyn! Corrected it
knkali
06-16-2014, 01:36 PM
That scenario only applied when in the middle of the night I hear a noise. Someone kicking in my door when I'm up and about calls for another response all together. Since I armed when up and about and not likely to have time to make it to a safe room, or to call 911, I'll shoot first and call later. There is also an alternate plan B to every scenario. Since I'm a sedentary old man I have time to think about these things. :)
Got it thanks
knkali
06-16-2014, 01:40 PM
The following is from a firearms magazine article by attorney Jason Squires who has defended many firearms related cases....His suggestions come from real life court room jury cases and make sense to me....
1. Never cross the threshold of your home with a gun in your hand...In law a detached garage or other out building on your property but not part of the physical residence are called "curtilage" and generally the law affords less protection to curtilage as they usually contain possessions rather than humans in danger so in other words if you hear someone stealing your car at 2am and you go out to confront them and it ends up in gunfire you're likely to be in legal trouble....His advice is to call 911 and get the Police involved and to stay inside.....
2. Call 911...He says to ALWAYS call 911 before doing anything....Jurors always ask "Why didn't he call 911" It's almost implied that in a civilized society a law abiding citizen doesn't take the law into their own hands but calls in the Police to do the dirty work...
3. Proportionality....He says not to bring a gun to a shouting match but to go inside and get away from the confrontation and calmly call 911 and let the Police sort it out because if you don't and the argument turns into a fist fight which escalates into gunfire, somebodys going to the hospital or morgue and sombodys going to prison...
4. Be Afraid....If you're not afraid for yours or a loved one's life you shouldn't unholster your weapon....Every jurisdiction recognizes the right of self defense but you must be able to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you were in fear of death to use a firearm and have a normal jury find you innocent and the shooting self defense...Remember most jury members wont be "gun friendly"....
5. No Cars...While this rule is unpopular he says the best course of action is to use the accelerator to get away from danger if at all possible then when a safe distance from the danger to call 911 and report the incident...He says in his experience a jury almost always associates a gun in a car or when a firearm is used in a traffic situation with "road rage" and the defendant is often seen as a participant in the situation no matter what really happened....He goes on to say that witnesses rarely come forward after seeing an incident in traffic and most people don't want to get involved which leaves the defendant in a he says, she says situation when the Police arrive after a shooting....
6. Last thing he says and this really makes sense if you stop and think about it is instead of buying additional weapons, holsters, magazines or ammo to reserve some money to seek legal advice and to have an attorney who is knowledgeable about firearms defense on retainer if God Forbid you ever really have to use your weapon to defend yourself....George Zimmerman used a pistol to save his life but his attorney and legal team saved him from prison...
Take the previous legal advice for what it's worth but it is something to think about because this fellow does this for a living and has seen what really happens in a court of law and how juries think when a firearm is involved in a self defense shooting case........Your mileage may vary
Solid. Thanks for the post
I'll mention this business in light of the above post. I am a subscriber but that's all I can say about it. CCWSAFE.
Bawanna
06-16-2014, 01:41 PM
You are correct again oh wise one...Common sense is your best bet...I don't have a lawyer fund either, heck I can hardly afford the bullets to shoot the bad guy with much less have an attorney available on speed dial....I don't necessarily agree with the no guns in the car deal either because I always have a gun on me where it's legal to do so and I had to use a car to get to those places so if I'm in the car so is my pistol....I do see his point in not letting road anger get out of hand to the point of gun play though....I just smile and say thank you to the nuts that cut me off and tell me I'm number one ....Works way mo betta
I'm rationing bullets but I got quite a few if you need some, I'll send ya some.
I don't get too excited over road rage. I'm usually the ragee rather than the rager. I just use the Hawaii Good Luck sign freely and move on.
jocko
06-16-2014, 02:09 PM
nice post getsome. everything makes perfect sense to.
I would add #9 to that list though.
If all else above fails give the fella a few dopuble taps topmake sure there is only one side of the story. if the glove doesnt fit u must aquit. Or in Zimmermans case, Travon can't get on the stand and say he was just returing from praying for te sick \and under priveledged and took this shortcut home. Justy sayin
SlowBurn
06-16-2014, 02:39 PM
For some reason, this thread reminds me of one of my favorite movie scenes, Julia Roberts calls 911 first, but speaks in the past tense.
from Sleeping with the Enemy, (wish I could find the video):
"Laura holds Martin at gunpoint while she calls 911. She then tells the police that she just killed an intruder, hangs up the phone and shoots Martin three times."
Bawanna
06-16-2014, 03:04 PM
That's exactly the stuff that will not bode well for you involving 911. Don't try to pull the paper sack over 911 or the police.
Somebody hears those shots and notes the time, your caught in a not so white little lie and things are bound to go down hill rapidly from there.
You've all heard the shoot em on the porch but drag em inside. Bad, bad idea. With the CSI now days they'll know.
If your righteous, the truth will set you free. Maybe you done just right but you do something to make it look even more right, now your in trouble.
jocko
06-16-2014, 03:12 PM
I would appreciate it colonel if u would change the name of wool to sumpin like a paper sack. It hurts some of us animal lovers. Just sayin
Bawanna
06-16-2014, 03:34 PM
All fixed. What was I thinking? Obviously not about some of our more sensitive members with idiosyncrasy's.
Definition for for some of our sensitive members with idiosyncrasy's and lower grasp of english language.
Idiosyncrasy= Pervert
DavidS
06-16-2014, 05:01 PM
I think most agree that a 911 call is required, whether it is before or after any shooting occurs will depend upon the situation.
However, contrary to some of the comments, our concealed carry class instructor told us to make the call, give the minimum details and hang up. Your next call should be to your lawyer. Leaving the phone off the hook or giving too much information, even though you think it is right for you, can and will be twisted around by prosecutors in criminal trials and by the opposing lawyers in the civil cases that will be filed against you.
You have right to remain silent, exercise that right. Let your lawyer help you decide what and how to say what happened.
knkali
06-16-2014, 05:06 PM
I think most agree that a 911 call is required, whether it is before or after any shooting occurs will depend upon the situation.
However, contrary to some of the comments, our concealed carry class instructor told us to make the call, give the minimum details and hang up. Your next call should be to your lawyer. Leaving the phone off the hook or giving too much information, even though you think it is right for you, can and will be twisted around by prosecutors in criminal trials and by the opposing lawyers in the civil cases that will be filed against you.
You have right to remain silent, exercise that right. Let your lawyer help you decide what and how to say what happened.
dude has a point
jeepster09
06-16-2014, 05:23 PM
I think most agree that a 911 call is required, whether it is before or after any shooting occurs will depend upon the situation.
However, contrary to some of the comments, our concealed carry class instructor told us to make the call, give the minimum details and hang up. Your next call should be to your lawyer. Leaving the phone off the hook or giving too much information, even though you think it is right for you, can and will be twisted around by prosecutors in criminal trials and by the opposing lawyers in the civil cases that will be filed against you.
You have right to remain silent, exercise that right. Let your lawyer help you decide what and how to say what happened.
When I went through police acadamy years ago.....we were told never volunteer any info when talking either....make them ask direct questions and only answer the question asked with out volunteering more info because it might get twisted and used against you.
North Carolina recently passed a Castle Law which helps but the burden on the BG to prove he is not quilty rather on the home owner which now is assumed innocent. Still law is to shoot only to protect lives. Can't shoot to protect property. I believe Massad Myood recommends calling 911 and report as a "home invasion" for faster Police response . For those who know, true or not? Also Myood says stay put until Police arrive , so they don't think you are the BG with a gun.
Longitude Zero
06-16-2014, 08:45 PM
Leaving the phone off the hook or giving too much information, even though you think it is right for you, can and will be twisted around by prosecutors in criminal trials and by the opposing lawyers in the civil cases that will be filed against you.
You have right to remain silent, exercise that right. Let your lawyer help you decide what and how to say what happened.
Anecdotal information at best. Do you have any sources for confirmation of where it was used negatively?
muggsy
06-16-2014, 09:36 PM
When I went through police acadamy years ago.....we were told never volunteer any info when talking either....make them ask direct questions and only answer the question asked with out volunteering more info because it might get twisted and used against you.
You never answer any questions, period. Your standard reply should be that you were in fear of losing your life and are too upset by the ordeal to answer any questions at this time, but that you'll be happy to make a full statement at the police station after you have spoken to your lawyer. The police are more than capable of investigating a potential crime scene on their own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au4_EdPwTkE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1t3vtr0kxk
DavidS
06-16-2014, 10:56 PM
Anecdotal information at best. Do you have any sources for confirmation of where it was used negatively?
Nope. Only relaying what I was told by my cc class instructor.
"President and chief instructor, Paul Abel, is respected as being one of the most knowledgeable small arms, tactical, defensive, and competitive shooting instructors in the world. Paul has been a working Police Officer, Sheriff, and State of Oklahoma and NRA Certified Police Combat Instructor for the past 40 years. He holds a USPSA/IPSC, and several NRA Master Ratings in various competitions. He is now retired from active competition. During his career in law enforcement, he was involved in numerous shooting encounters. Paul knows how to survive in dangerous situations and will pass this knowledge on to you."
Armybrat
06-17-2014, 07:50 PM
I think most agree that a 911 call is required, whether it is before or after any shooting occurs will depend upon the situation.
However, contrary to some of the comments, our concealed carry class instructor told us to make the call, give the minimum details and hang up. Your next call should be to your lawyer. Leaving the phone off the hook or giving too much information, even though you think it is right for you, can and will be twisted around by prosecutors in criminal trials and by the opposing lawyers in the civil cases that will be filed against you.
You have right to remain silent, exercise that right. Let your lawyer help you decide what and how to say what happened.
Correct. Both my CHL instructors said the same thing, and one of them is retired military & LEO and is presently affiliated as a lobbyist for the Texas State Rifle Association.
100percent
06-17-2014, 09:26 PM
Thanks for the refresher.Davids and Muggsy.
DavidS
06-19-2014, 02:46 PM
One other little piece of wisdom along this line, again from the same guy:
Once you receive a carry permit, it is a good idea to find a lawyer. You do not need to retain a lawyer, just find one that says he will take you on as a client and defend you if the need should ever arise. And don't go looking for a divorce attorney or tax attorney or some such. Find a criminal defense attorney. His job is not to be your friend or a good guy, find the most bad-a$$ one available. And get his card to keep in your wallet.
knkali
06-19-2014, 03:23 PM
again....CCWsafe.com
Longitude Zero
06-20-2014, 12:13 PM
again....CCWsafe.com
Probably better than nothing but everything has its limitations.
knkali
06-20-2014, 07:13 PM
Probably better than nothing but everything has its limitations.
Its a gamble. Might be an expensive piece of plastic in my wallet. Heck, I blow the yearly cost of membership on a nice dinner with Mrs. Knkali so........
AIRret
06-21-2014, 07:04 AM
Great thread, thanks for starting it Muggsy.
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