Lets Get to the Bottom of Kahr Magazine Questions!

[OldLincoln]

People have been asking about loose rounds in their pocket when carrying spare mags. Additionally several people have sticky mags that don't drop free. I'm now questioning the construction of Kahr mags.

In another thread, I wrote about modifying the mag well and mag catch to allow mags to drop free. In there I added a couple points that bothered me. My mags are flared outward on top which makes the mag hold only the bottom 1/4" or so of the cartridge.

This can be seen by holding a straight edge along the fully loaded mag resting on the mag lip and just above the bottom edge. Doing this up to the light you can see the gap. One side may be greater than the other.

This allows the top round to wiggle side to side a lot. The top lips are tensioned and keep a hold on the very end of the round as it slides out, but I contend the full length of the mag lips should be in contact with the round.

This may be considered 'normal', however, why does my Colt Commander hold the top round tightly along the full length of the round? Also, note the 'mag mods' that add a notch for the cartridge bottom lip to catch holding them in the mag. I don't have one to look at but I suspect that also allows more of the lips to hold the round.

Is this by design? If so then why do each of my mags differ in amount of contact? I suspect the issue is that the back side of the mag has cross sectional support so the lips start out even, however as the lips get further away from the back side they flex allowing the cartridge to be loose.

OK, this is my starting point. Before saying I'm full of it, please check out your mags looking for space along the sides of the top round. Space that increases the further you look toward the bullet. If you have trouble seeing it, wiggle the round side to side and compare all this to your non-Kahr guns.

I'm looking for answers.

[captorpedo]

My TP9 mags can't hold their bullets. They habitually loose the top round while in my pocket or in my mag pouch! What's the deal?

[jocko]

Old Lincoln: IMO your post raises some good point but we would all be "speculating" as to what should be and what should not be. I would think the best way to maybe even get to the bottom of this is to talk to IAN at kahr and try to pin him down . the loose rounds things I do not think is gonna go away. Kahr mags for some reason are designed differently and it could quite possable be the offset feed ramp design also, which makes the gun thinner than most all others by running the trigger system downt he offset side of the feed ramp. Just my two cents on this, but like my opinion here also, it is mere speculation. I try not to compare my kahr to my Glocks, Paras or others and vice versa. I have two glock mags for my G19 that came with the gun, one drops free every time the other not, neither bother me one way or the other.

My PM9 has never dropped any mags freely (I have 3 mags) but I have over the past 3 years got to like that, for if I hit the mag release by accident, the magazine don't leave the gun. I never carry a spare mag on me so "speed" tactical loading matters nadda to me. I feel it I can't do it in 7 then probalby I ain't gonna do it. Again my two cents.

I have carried for 48 tears and never ever had to pull my weapon . I don't tend to be paranoid or "rambo" in my dress either, BUT I will never be a victim again. IMO the 15 year old who got shot on the border got due justice. age in that area is a very debateable thing and in a defense situation, just not sure one is asking for another persons age either. when is Mexico ever going to wake up????? It's always our fault???? Bull sh-t...

sorry kinda got off track there, thats what happens at age 67,,,, attention span is about the length of a good "fart".

[jlottmc]

My P45 mags hold their rounds just fine, I keep them in my back pocket, brass to the grass as the friendly DI's used to tell us. Have not a problem one with rounds even coming unseated in the magazines. I checked the fit inside the pistol and they drop, they don't leave in a big hurry, but they drop free. Just my two cents.

[PigButtons]

I know what you mean about the rounds coming out of the mags. Poor situation but fixable. One was is the grinding of the notches that you and others have mentioned. I staked mine on both sides at the point where the gap in the casing rim sits in the mag lips.


My understanding for why the lips flare out: Since the Kahrs have an offset feed ramp (I don't know if they all do but the M sizes do) the bullets have to have some side to side play to properly track in the ramp. Otherwise it would bind as it travels on the slight diagonal that it moves through from bottom of the ramp to the chamber.

[OldLincoln]

I don't have Ian's direct email address but sent an email to service@kahr.com with his name in the subject.

[OldLincoln]

I got a reply stating that Kahr doesn't participatehttp://picasaweb.google.com/oldlincoln99/PM9 in forums. I'm disappointed as this forum is sponsored by them, at least I think that's so. Anyway I responded with the issues I presented in the first post of this thread and got a response as follows:
==================

From: joe.mayo@kahr.com

Good Afternoon,

I'm sorry to hear about the problem you are having. If you would like you can send in your magazine(s) for replacement. Our shipping address is:
K.A.I.
130 Goddard Memorial Drive
Worcester MA 01603
Attn: Service Dept.

Please include a note containing your name, shipping address, contact info, and why you are sending in the magazine(s).

However you can also try to bend the feed lips inward slightly. This may cause the rounds to bind up if bent inwards too much.

The best recommendation I can make is to use a magazine pouch for your spare magazines. The use of the pouch prevents the top round from bouncing around and thus preventing it from exiting the magazine. We sell many types of pouches on our website www.kahrshop.com (http://kahrtalk.com/www.kahrshop.com)

All of the magazines Kahr makes have flared feed lips and are designed that way for the best results during feeding. Drastically altering this design can and will cause feeding problems in our pistols.
========================
http://picasaweb.google.com/oldlincoln99/PM9
I suppose that are designed that way, but when I load just 1 round in a mag, the lips are flush the entire length of the round. With a full mag they are spread. A single round loads fine and a full mag loads fine, so I don't see an advantage to the spread. So....

I used my trusty long nose pliers and very carefully shaped the lips on 1 of my spare mags. The result is in the attached pic, with the modified mag on the left. Both 7rd mags are full and the only difference is the left one holds my defense rounds (I can't find more in my town). The difference is clear and the left one appears as I would expect it to from the factory (and as my Colt Commander does).

There is no wiggle in the left mag and I doubt rounds will be released in my pocket. I took it to the range and it shot without a blink. I will modify the other spare soon and shoot it also. In theory I don't need to modify the carry mag as it will be in the gun, so I'll at least wait a while to be sure.
http://picasaweb.google.com/oldlincoln99/PM9

[Bawanna]

Looks really good. As long as it works which it apparently does I think you've found the cure. There's nothing that would indicate that it wouldn't work that I can see. I have to take a look at mine first chance I get although I've not experienced losing rounds as I've heard some do.
Were the feed lips difficult to bend? Some of them can be pretty tough.

[OldLincoln]

They were a bit difficult as they spring back to the original shape and I was very cautious. I bent them inward in general with a spacer in place about 1.5 rounds down inside the mag. I also shaped them a bit working the lips themselves.

All this said, I'm still "testing" the mod so don't hurry into it. While the Kahr never feeds smoothly, it does feed. When I hand rack it slowly I can see the nosedive of the round into the feed ramp. Both rack consistently if I keep the motion going, racking too slow lets it hang up although the loose mags have less of it.

If Jocko is up to it I'd like to send him the modified mag so he could shoot a few hundred rounds through it. He shoots several hundred rounds a week and I'm almost out of ammo (and money). The only catch is I'd want it back.

[jocko]

no need to do that, I am not questioning what you have done. I don't carry spare mags, so loose rounds don't bother me. I would think someone who carrys spare mags would be a better tester than I. As long as it goes bang in your gun, then IMO, ur good to go. I could see from the photo that you have tightened up the mag lips some and if that solves the issue you were having, then indeed continue on testing. I think you are wise to not do it to all magazines until you get some through testing through it.what may work in ur kahr, might indeed not work in mine and then we would be back to the drawing board. I do appreciate the offer though and not trying to push you off either.

I just never have feed issues in my PM9. I can hand rack it with ease now to, course 19,300 rounds should makes something alittle looser I would think also. My kahr feels tight as hell but I know it has smoothed out alot, as I could not hand rack it with the ease that I can now. I also credit myself with better knowledge of my kahr and its differences. A kahr will feed smoothly, one cannot baby the slide though, and I don't fault the gun in that. Most all auto need racked fast to insure proper feeding.

[Moto_joe]

I find ths interesting to read, as I have neither of the indicated issues with my p40.

My magazines drop free. Not a hint of hanging up even. VERY smooth.

My feed lips are also parallel. And the first round takes some effort to pop out of the magazine. The top round is tilted up into the lips, and its rim sortof hangs slightly on the rim of the round below it. I have not carried one in my pocket though, so I cant say if a round would pop free in my pocket or not.

[jfrey]

I got curious after reading this so I checked the mag in my CW9. Sure enough you can wiggle the top round a little left to right in the mag. I never noticed that before but all 3 of mine function well so I guess I don't have any problems. Unlike others, I prefer my mags to shoot out when empty. At first they wouldn't so I returned the pistol to Kahr after emailing Ian and now they shoot out like my 1911 mags. Some like 'em like that and some don't and that's OK too.

[Moto_joe]

I got curious after reading this so I checked the mag in my CW9. Sure enough you can wiggle the top round a little left to right in the mag. I never noticed that before but all 3 of mine function well so I guess I don't have any problems. Unlike others, I prefer my mags to shoot out when empty. At first they wouldn't so I returned the pistol to Kahr after emailing Ian and now they shoot out like my 1911 mags. Some like 'em like that and some don't and that's OK too.


I am with ya on that. I want them dropping out very freely. By the time it clears the bottom before it even hits the ground I plan on shoving another mag in. If i have to pull the old mag out that is time wasted IMO

[jfrey]

Moto joe, I feel the same way. That is what always bothered me about my Hi-Power too. I finally fixed that problem. Got those mags dropping like the rest. It's just personal choice how you want them to function.

[OldLincoln]

... I returned the pistol to Kahr after emailing Ian and now they shoot out like my 1911 mags.Do you know what they did to fix it? I sanded the rails down a little in mine but it was doing some work on the mag release that really seemed to make a difference. So I'm curious if Kahr replaced your mag release, modified the mag well or both.

[jfrey]

I don't know for sure exactly what they did. The work order only indicated they did some work on the mag well. I can tell by looking inside it that they must have milled down the inside in some way. I went back and checked the work order and it says "polished frame". If they replaced the mag catch, it doesn't say so. What ever they did it is working now. Sorry I can't be more specific.

[mbv6988]

I have a K9 with about 650 rds through it. I the only mag problem I had was that the plastic magazine follower broke. The rear vertical guide portion broke, allowing it to tilt forward when it shouldnt. I emailed Kahr service and Ian sent me out a free replacement. I think the followers should be made of metal or at least beef them up so they cant break.

[hobbydad]

I recently replaced the polymer magazine release in my PM9 with the steel version (Thanks Ian), and it helped magazine ejection immensely.

[sheepdog22]

Im going to bring this back from the dead. I had the same issue as the OP. The bullet would not sit tightly in the magazine, which made it vomit bullets inside my Remora mag pouch. I followed the OP suggestion about tweeking the feed lip which removed all the side to side but the CW9 wont cycle by hand properly. I have to slingshot the slide and even then sometime it hangs up.

I may be putting my CW9 back in the safe till I can get it figured out.

[OldLincoln]

Tweaking the lips is a try/fail/try thing. Once I had my feed lips perfect looking, it fed round nose well but not HST. I opened them just enough to feed HST and all has been well since. They have just a little wiggle room but hardly anything like the sloppiness from the factory.

Just look it over for any pinch and loosen up just enough to feed. Go shoot range and defense ammo and if necessary tweak again. I recommend doing 1 mag at a time.

[paperpuncher]

The mags for my P238 and my CM9 are so similar in size that I had to label them, but the quality difference between the two are so apparent, that really it's a joke that Kahr would think so little of such an important part of their product and contract out and pay for junk. These are the sorriest mags of any gun I own, including laughed at Bersa.
Sent from my DROID RAZR

[sheepdog22]

Tweaking the lips is a try/fail/try thing. Once I had my feed lips perfect looking, it fed round nose well but not HST. I opened them just enough to feed HST and all has been well since. They have just a little wiggle room but hardly anything like the sloppiness from the factory.

Just look it over for any pinch and loosen up just enough to feed. Go shoot range and defense ammo and if necessary tweak again. I recommend doing 1 mag at a time.

Yea. I have been tweeking my spare 8 rounder. I will give it another go and see if I can get it functioning better. Thanks!

[saltydog452]

I have a K-9 and a P-9.

Had them since mid 90s and late 2000 respectfully.

Both are still reliable but the OEM mags are beginning to seperate at the aft weld seam. No way that a 'before and after' comparison can be made.

Just guessing, but I imagine the feed lips have spread since the weld splits have begun. They all still work though.

salty