Can we revisit the 380 carry ammo question?

[DavidR]

There's lots of information floating around and disagreement on what ammo to carry in a 380 for self defense. Once I get my CW380 broken in, I'll need to pick a carry ammo. I understand that the first consideration is reliable performance. After that: FMJ, HP, +P? I've watched the "shooting the bull" stuff on YouTube and it looks like Federal Hydra Shok is decent. Hornady Custom XTP (which is no longer available) did well but Hornady Critical Defense XTP didn't do well. Most of the HP, including Speer Gold Dot, didn't do well. What about FMJ - at least it penetrates. What about these HP +P loads? Will they penetrate more than standard pressure hollow point? Now that I'm totally confused I'll pose my question to the experts on the Kahr Talk Forum:

If you carry a short-barreled 380 as a civilian self-defense gun, not a backup gun, what ammo do you use and why?

[pinehtr]

No expert here ,However when I carry a 380 its FMJs . Still looking for something better.

[Bill]

I use the Hornady because it is available and works in my P380. I think we all tend to overthink this. I read in another blog that 2 shots from a .380 started WWI. I did not know the story so I looked it up... Wow.

[b4uqzme]

I use the Hornady because it is available and works in my P380. I think we all tend to overthink this. I read in another blog that 2 shots from a .380 started WWI. I did not know the story so I looked it up... Wow.

+1 use what's available and works.

[Planedude]

I use the Hornady because it is available and works in my P380. I think we all tend to overthink this. I read in another blog that 2 shots from a .380 started WWI. I did not know the story so I looked it up... Wow.

Guess I'm +2

The Hornady CD load has never failed to run in my P380 and that's the most important thing to me. I shoot the little gun well and have "bet my own life" faith that my shot placement would be the biggest factor should the SHTF...

[SlowBurn]

+3

Hornady CD shoots and feeds reliably, and I feel comfortable with it.

There was one video where the tester (using a Kel tec I think) couldn't find a supply of Hornady CD and shot some from an odd box, and it didn't penetrate to 12.' I'm not sure his sample was representative.

There are several other videos where it tested out very well, one specifically using a Kahr 380 and shooting into bare gel and again through 4 layers of denim.

[muggsy]

Let's face it, being shot by a .380 will ruin anyone's day. Having said that I use Federal HST in warm weather and ball ammo for it's penetration in the winter months.

[yqtszhj]

Buffalo bore hardcast 100gr. Make sure it will feed reliably first. It makes a 380 a fire breathing dragon. It does kick too.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

[GLOCKROCKER]

Elsie Pea likes CD also.

[DavidR]

Lots of votes for Critical Defense.

[CPTKILLER]

I use Buffalo Bore Hard Cast +P Flat Nose in my CZ83.

I want to insure excellent penetration and impact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b3ZGmZuT0

[happypuppy]

Critical defense seems to feed the best and is easy to find. I've used in in a couple LCP s , a couple bodyguards as well. Always worked well

No it does not penetrate as far as some and YouTube videos it only penetrates 8 inches or so failing the FBI test. I don't really care as it goes bang every time. The most
Important thing.

[muggsy]

Lots of votes for Critical Defense.

Is this a popularity contest or are you looking for the best ammo?

[DavidR]

Is this a popularity contest or are you looking for the best ammo?

Best is subjective. Looking to hear what you guys use and why. CD seems to be popular here which means that many consider it the "best".

If it was a popularity contest, only jocko's vote would matter as we all know, he's the most popular guy around these parts.

[Bill K]

I can speak to the effectiveness of Corbon DPX (I think it was the 90 grain) out of a P3AT. Light clothing season I feel confident with just about any reliable feeding .380 ammo. For winter I'll go with either CD or truncated cone.

I believe with the .380, more so than with the larger calibers, you've got to think in terms of multiple hits - double and triple taps, regardless of selected .380 ammo.

[torrgar9]

Just finished breaking in my P380. Seems to like Hornday Critical Defense, Fiocchi ball, not at all.

[SlowBurn]

I'm hoping the Xtreme Penetrator round proves as good as the early reviews. If it does, I also hope Lehigh Defense is smart enough to change the name.

[jlottmc]

Once again, I'll leave this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

[DavidR]

Once again, I'll leave this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

4 of the 5 winners are "unobtainium". Hornady doesn't make the Critical Duty anymore, Precision One, Fiocchi and HPR don't ever seem to be in stock. That leaves only the Federal Hydra Shok.

The Hornady results are puzzling. Critical Defense didn't penetrate but Critical Duty did. They both use the FTX bullet. From what I've read, the Critical Defense is the same as the Critical Duty except it has the plug in the hollow point.

Critical Defense runs flawlessly in my CW380 but I had a couple of failures to go into battery with Hydra Shok. I plan to try the Hydra Shok again.

[miketafc]

I also changed my 380 ammo after watching the Ammo Quest results. Unfortunately the federal hydra shock ammo caused several failure to feed and failure to lock open after the last shot problems in my Kahr CW 380.

i researched and found several other tests that had excellent penetration and expansion results using Hornady critical defense FTX ammo. Also the ammo quest results were short of FBI's standards which are not necessarily the only way to measure the effectiveness of personal defense ammo.

I've since gone back to critical defense which has proven to be 100% reliable in my 380. To me that's the most important factor.

[kwh]

My understanding is that Hornady Duty is made more for penetration and Defense is skewed toward expansion. In the strange world of short barrel defensive pistols, the Duty hit the sweet spot in expansion/penetration in the .380. Opposite results in the 9mm short barrel. Agree penetration is most important after reliable feeding , but I would also prefer to dump all of the energy into the B.G.

[Rubb]

Hornady does not and has not made Critical Duty in 380.

[DavidR]

Hornady does not and has not made Critical Duty in 380.

I think you're right. The Hornady ammo in the video is Critical Defense and Custom.

[Ljutic]

I like the testing this guy does. Here's the big list. You'll have to move down the page to the 380 tests.

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/p/ammo-tests.html


Federal Hydra-Shok or Remington Leadless FNEB depending on the time of year.

[DavidR]

Regarding Hornady, the Custom (no longer made) used the XTP bullet while the Critical Defense uses the FTX bullet.

[rwehnau]

Another source of informal and unbiased ammo testing of 380 http://www.bersachat.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?79-380-Ammo-Tests

[100percent]

If I am going to be on the street with my 380 LCP, I try to use Magtec FMJ. I get about 1000fps with them. Never had a misfire since I bought a few bulk packs of them in 08. For fun, I use 105 grain SWC. With as fat and big some of these "gentle giants" are, I want to be able to go through and don't want the parachute to open early

Personally it is better than a sharp stick.

I don't want to go off topic but if you use the same bullet in both 380 and 9 you get roughly 2 extra grains of powder in the 9mm. Significant. If you use a 40 you use roughly the same amount of powder as a 9 but are pushing a bullet maybe 50% heavier.

[happypuppy]

Another option would be underwood ammo. The loads are hot and he has stock in a wide variety of types of bullets and weights. He has +p as well. I have used his ammo in the past and it's high quality new starline brass etc

[CPTKILLER]

I agree with the Buffalo bore hard cast 100gr. I keep it in my CZ 83 that stays all of the time in the console of my Jeep in Texas.

This is legal in Texas. When I forget to carry my Kahr MK9, the CZ 83 is always there and a great backup weapon.

[TheLastDaze]

Shooting the bull is spot on... and yes we can revisit the .380 defensive ammo topic.....

I bought some Lehigh X treme SD from a guy who's p380 wouldn't even cylce ball ammo so he dumped it on me... HAPPILY.... This stuff is a no brainer guys, not sure it will cycle in a Kahr or not but my LCP eats it....

if you haven't already seen the updated video from shootingthebull check it out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw

[DavidR]

The Lehigh ammo looks good for a 380. Only one way to know if it will feed in a Kahr ...

[kwh]

Thanks thelastdaze for the new info. Definitely a find and try round.

[TheLastDaze]

If someone is local with a good running Kahr I will let them try some out as Im eager to see if it will run, it didnt in his at all but nothing else did as well..

I've only fired it and it doesnt seem any hotter then my medium handloads, but seems to me we are on the right track for this caliber, best of both worlds, hardball baby !! I also believe these to be full metal and not plated...

[DavidR]

I ordered a couple of boxes. Will likely be a week or so before I get to the range.

[TheLastDaze]

I ordered a couple of boxes. Will likely be a week or so before I get to the range.

I knew my marketing strategies would pay off :D even though the company isn't public I have vested interest.....

J/K .... I'll be waiting your range report, I hope they feed through your gun as this is the kind defense ammo I don't think anyone could say different after the results...

[Pointblank]

According to this the pistol that started WW1 was a .32 acp.

http://www.guns.com/2013/10/31/infamous-weapons-guns-of-the-assassins/

[SlowBurn]

I ordered a couple of boxes. Will likely be a week or so before I get to the range.
If this stuff proves out I hope they change the name to something less idiotic than "Extreme Penetrator"

[TheLastDaze]

I haven't personally tested it in gel or water bottles or, or, or..... but I have fired it and it feeds fine.... In my mind for a 380 this is the only thing to consider oh and btw, I will never ever again use Hornady in anything after seeing these vids...

[DavidR]

I ordered a couple of boxes. Will likely be a week or so before I get to the range.

Fired 20 rounds of the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator at the range today. It cycled fine through my CW380 - no FTF or FTE. It's a soft shooting round and was accurate.

Unfortunately, I'm still having some intermittent problems with failure to go into battery with 2 of my 3 mags. Mag #1 is perfect with any ammo I run. Mags 2 and 3 have occasional failures to go into battery with FMJ and Federal Hydra Shok. Hornady Critical Duty seems to run well period - never had an issue.

For carry I'm good with Lehigh in mag 1 and if I carry a spare mag, it'll be Critcal Defense.

I'm open to suggestions on the battery failures. I've polished the insides of the gun and had 75 flawless rounds with mag 1 and 2 on my last range trip. It's been almost 3 weeks since I last lubed the 380 so it may have been a little dry when I fired it today. Maybe I need to lube it every week. I hand stretched the springs in mag 2 and 3 when I cleaned them today to see if that helps. Any other ideas? I'd like to avoid sending it back to Kahr if I can.

[TheLastDaze]

Awesome man !!!! really good news to hear it cycled..... tell me isn't it the best looking ammo you've ever laid eyes on?? I really am hyped about this ammo bigtime.... new innovations man... gotta love it....

sorry about your mag issues, seems odd they would both do the same thing at the same time.....

have you looked at the follower and maybe compared it to mag 1?? are 2 and 3 larger capacities?? factory mags??

[100percent]

I had intermittent failures with my pm40 from a tight extractor. Not sure if you evaluated for that.

I think it great that your penetrator ammo is working. If there is any weakness with a 380 with a short barrel it is penetration.

[DavidR]

Awesome man !!!! really good news to hear it cycled..... tell me isn't it the best looking ammo you've ever laid eyes on?? I really am hyped about this ammo bigtime.... new innovations man... gotta love it....

sorry about your mag issues, seems odd they would both do the same thing at the same time.....

have you looked at the follower and maybe compared it to mag 1?? are 2 and 3 larger capacities?? factory mags??

The range officers thought the ammo looked very cool. They'd never seen anything like it. All 3 mags are factory 6-rounders. Mag 3 is brand new.


I had intermittent failures with my pm40 from a tight extractor. Not sure if you evaluated for that.

I think it great that your penetrator ammo is working. If there is any weakness with a 380 with a short barrel it is penetration.

I don't know how to evaluate for a tight extractor. How is it done?

[100percent]

How I evaluated mine was by comparison to known similar working guns. Dissassembled the weapon, removed barrel. and tried pushing brass up through the extractor. You can feel how much friction it has as the brass intersects the extractor from the bottom.

My gun was older so i chose to try polishing the sharp bevel at the bottom. Runs 100 percent now.

[TheLastDaze]

just read the entirety of the thread for the first time... some people talking about how some ammo wont feed into their gun... when I first joined I posted a thread "does Kahr really suck that bad"?? the reason why is, I read ALL THE TIME about kahrs malfunctioning.... this shouldn't be happening in such an expensive gun, you shouldn't have to modify it to get it to run properly, period....

I wouldn't carry a gun that didn't run anything I threw at it, there isn't a gun I own that wont eat any ammo, and I've thrown unclean and nasty reloaded brass through them.. my elsie pea eats everything, I have almost a 1000 rounds through her with zero issues..

when my kahr pm9 comes in and I have to tweak it, I'll dump it and never return to kahr again... so we'll see

[DavidR]

just read the entirety of the thread for the first time... some people talking about how some ammo wont feed into their gun... when I first joined I posted a thread "does Kahr really suck that bad"?? the reason why is, I read ALL THE TIME about kahrs malfunctioning.... this shouldn't be happening in such an expensive gun, you shouldn't have to modify it to get it to run properly, period....

I wouldn't carry a gun that didn't run anything I threw at it, there isn't a gun I own that wont eat any ammo, and I've thrown unclean and nasty reloaded brass through them.. my elsie pea eats everything, I have almost a 1000 rounds through her with zero issues..

when my kahr pm9 comes in and I have to tweak it, I'll dump it and never return to kahr again... so we'll see

I hear ya ... not thrilled that my CW380 isn't flawless but I absolutely love the pistol. The size is amazing, the trigger is great and it's accurate enough for self defense. I've been corresponding with Kahr about the problems and I sent them an email this morning asking for a prepaid shipping label. Hopefully we can get this one working right.

I had a CW9 which a few FTFs early on but the problem disappeared by itself by the end of the break in period. Sold the CW9 after I got a CM9. The CM9 has been fine right out of the box. It has reliably fed, fired and ejected everything I've put through it.

[TheLastDaze]

Just to clarify my post above; I meant if I have to continually tweek the gun to no avail I prob wont send to kahr but get rid of it.. (sometimes I type to fast before I can process the information) ...

[DavidR]

Awesome man !!!! really good news to hear it cycled..... tell me isn't it the best looking ammo you've ever laid eyes on?? I really am hyped about this ammo bigtime.... new innovations man... gotta love it.... ??

I picked up some of this ammo in 38 special - 140 grain +p. I hope to shoot a cylinder or 2 this week. Lehigh ships very fast. Twice I've ordered on a Thursday and the ammo arrived Saturday (PA to FL via FedEx). The 38 ammo uses Winchester brass with the Lehigh bullet. It looks great but the packaging was crummy - cheap cardboard that tears when you open the box. At $1.50 a round they need to include a plastic tray.


http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/EB5DD574-42ED-4561-AC11-85B567BD8A60_zps7xdfwu1v.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/EB5DD574-42ED-4561-AC11-85B567BD8A60_zps7xdfwu1v.jpg.html)

[erichard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RzpCcAPp84&list=UUX4Vw6XJMpnPgzbf4zNFJMw&index=1

Lehigh recently put up a video (above) showing that XP bullet being cycled through 5 subcompact guns, including the P380. In that video, it seemed to cycle through the P380 fine, but there is a written disclaimer at the beginning of the video that said the P380/CW380 was the only subcompact that did have issues (off camera apparently) and that the feeding issue was probably related to the steep feed ramp design in these guns. I believe they were getting nosedive issues, which I've experienced with flat nose/truncated WWB ammo.

I'd be curious to hear what other folks experience with this XP bullet, particularly those who have polished the feed ramp and done the slingshot alteration on the follower (which can be found in the new owner's forum as a sticky). That follower mod is meant to help prevent nosedives by keeping the bullet tipped upwards while still held by the magazine lips. I did that mod, and it did help with the Winchester FMJ flat nose bullet feeding.

The ammo is too expensive for one person to test hundreds of rounds, but maybe collectively we can analyze whether the modification makes the bullet useable. It would be a nice carry round since it virtually guarantees both penetration and a large wound channel while staying within FBI limits of 12 to 18 inches of ballistic gel penetration.

Absent that, we could still reliably use it as the first round in the chamber, since that would already have been fed prior to a gunfight. Not the greatest endorsement, but it might prove useful.

I also wonder if the feed ramp could be sanded just a bit to lessen the steepness of the lower aspect of the ramp ever so slightly. Given the video, it seems the ramp is borderline OK, but not 100% reliable. Just a little sanding might push it into the 100% category, but I'm not gunsmith, so I'm all ears on this possible strategy.

My guess is, if your p380/cw380 has trouble with the Winchester white box (wwb) truncated rounds, it will have occasional troubles with this Lehigh xtreme Penetrator. What I wonder is, if you no longer have problems with WWB due to the modification, then does that signal optimism for this XP bullet cycling ~100% in the Kahr 380. I'm guessing/hoping yes. That would allow perfecting your gun with cheap ammo prior to testing out expensive XP ammo.

I do think this could be the defensive bullet of the future, the next design after the long dominant hollow point. This is especially true of the .380, as it satisfies FBI requirements where other .380 designs fail. It makes the 380 a bona fide defensive round.

[DavidR]

I fired 20 rounds through my CW380 with no feed problems. I have 500 rounds through the CW380 and it has never jammed. Unfortunately it has intermittent failures to go into full battery with any ammo (except Hornady Critical Defense). We'll see if it still feeds when I get it back from Kahr.

I've been thinking about getting an LCP. Does anyone know if it feeds in the Ruger?

[muggsy]

I don't put much stock in bullet performance results taken from ballistic gel tests. I prefer bullet performance results taken from autopsy reports. :)

[WLEEP]

PRECISION ONE is the best (I think) never failed in any way and great penetration (at least that's what she said!)

[DavidR]

PRECISION ONE is the best (I think) never failed in any way and great penetration (at least that's what she said!)

Precision One is made of unobtanium.

[KingWulfgar]

Precision One is made of unobtanium.

Just ordered 2 50rd boxes this morning. Sold out in under an hour. Email them and ask them for a heads-up. It was the only way I knew it was going to be available. Sounds like they are selling it faster than they can make it. She told me they had 12k rounds sell out in less than an hour a couple days ago.

[DavidR]

Just ordered 2 50rd boxes this morning. Sold out in under an hour. Email them and ask them for a heads-up. It was the only way I knew it was going to be available. Sounds like they are selling it faster than they can make it. She told me they had 12k rounds sell out in less than an hour a couple days ago.

Nice!
I spoke to them some time ago and they put me on the list to be notified but I haven't heard from them. I've moved on to Lehigh Defense XP for my LCP.

[Pointblank]

Precision One is now offering the XTP loading in +P for the 380. I wonder how that would perform?

[muggsy]

Since I've never been assailed by a block of ballistics gel wearing four layers of denim, I'm not overly impressed by ballistic gel tests. With the .380 I'm more concerned with under penetration than I am over penetration. Most .380 hollow point bullets don't penetrate deeply enough unless they plug with cloth and don't expand. In that case they perform just like ball ammunition. With the .380 or any other concealed carry round your goal should be multiple center mass hits. In other words, don't just shoot once and then step back to admire your work. These guns were designed around a ball load and that seems to be what functions best in them. If the gun does not go bang every time you pull the trigger you might as well have a rock in your hand. You can buy twice as many ball rounds for half the price of the latest pocket rocket loads.

[Phantom]

Corbon Powerball is great ammo. The ball insures reliable feeding. I use it in all my Kahr Pistols.

[TheTman]

I was looking at Buffalo Bore .380 since their ammo always seems to run a bit hot. They advertise a Barnes +P 80 Gr TAC-XP Lead free HP Bullet, in a brass case, as running at 1136 FPS out of a P380. That sounds like a serious contender to me. Their 100 gr lead flat nose cartridge runs at 1061 FPS out of a Keltec. And a 90gr JHP at 1100 FPS out of a Keltec.

[Whaleman]

I carry the Buffalo Bore +P 90 grain JHP in my P380. Dan

[McE]

Anyone carry the Lehigh products? Either Max Expansion or Xtreme Penetrator?

They make special notes about Kahrs, but mention only trouble is with first round loading. If you carry hot then it shouldn't really be a reason to miss out on seemingly promising ammo.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/shop/ammunition/118/21/xtreme-penetrator-%28xp%29-ammunition/380-auto-90gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition-detail

[SlowBurn]

Not being much of an experimenter, I and my guns like Hornady CD. I don't worry a lot about expansion, but its seems to do that. Its such a good shooting and loading round and I've had no problems with it in 380 or 9mm, in any of my 3 handguns, ever. A lot of people were discouraged by the Ammo Quest series, but I think his result with the Hornady was an outlier. Like choosing a Camry instead of a smart car or something, Hornady is CD just a safe kind of boring reliable round. Price has come down a little lately too.

I like the idea of the xtreme penetrator (not the name) but I want to wait for it to prove out over time and become widely available.

[Pointblank]

The Hornady Custom XTP is the round that favors penetration with moderate expansion. The Critical Defense will give you much shallower penetration. I don't trust it in short-barreled pistols like the CW380.

[DavidR]

Anyone carry the Lehigh products? Either Max Expansion or Xtreme Penetrator?

They make special notes about Kahrs, but mention only trouble is with first round loading. If you carry hot then it shouldn't really be a reason to miss out on seemingly promising ammo.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/shop/ammunition/118/21/xtreme-penetrator-%28xp%29-ammunition/380-auto-90gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition-detail

I had failure to return to battery issues mid-magazine with Lehigh XP in my CW380 but I also had that problem with Federal Hydra Shok. I never had a jam loading the first round.

I really like the XP. I think it maximizes the effectiveness of a pocket 380 - adequate penetration and a wound channel larger than round nosed FMJ. I sold my CW380 because it wouldn't reliably cycle my preferred choices of ammo.

[muggsy]

I've always shot what the gun prefers. What I think is of little consequence. The problem with today's generation is that they expect instant gratification. Any gun can be made to function properly. In most cases it takes very little time or effort. All that you have to be is smarter than the gun.

[jocko]

I've always shot what the gun prefers. What I think is of little consequence. The problem with today's generation is that they expect instant gratification. Any gun can be made to function properly. In most cases it takes very little time or effort. All that you have to be is smarter than the gun.

geez christ, Muggsy, u ACTUALLY made some sense this time. Kudos to Muggsy. Lets all give Muggsy the clap. Just sayin

[dsk]

I use Hornady Critical Defense simply because A) it's high-quality ammo, B) in .380 it functions the most reliably of any JHP round I've tried (0 malfunctions attributable to the ammo so far), and C) it's readily available at most gun shops I frequent. In the spirit of what muggsy just said, I couldn't care less if some tester claims that XXX load is better until I've had a chance to shoot several boxes of it for reliability.

[Ron AZ]

I've always shot what the gun prefers. What I think is of little consequence. The problem with today's generation is that they expect instant gratification. Any gun can be made to function properly. In most cases it takes very little time or effort. All that you have to be is smarter than the gun.

Muggsy, what is up with bumping up a 4 month old post? Have you been on a sabbatical? LOL You've got mucho seniority. So I would never be critical … just wondering what's up when start reading and it is an old post.