scary moment at the range

[blackbird94]

Had the CW45 at the range today, along with a bunch of other stuff. Pulled the CW out to try the new Fiocchi XTP defense ammo I just bought. Magazine, rack it, doesn't go to battery. drop the mag, rack it. That round ejects, next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber. Ended the range day. put it in a padded case. Locked it into the trunk. A quick 10 minute run to the gun shop/gunsmith. 5 minutes and $25 later, all is good again. Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol. It's a Horrandy XTP bullet in a Fiocchi case. Yes factory new rounds. Off tomorrow to see if the shop where I bought them will let me swap for core bon or golden saber. Oh yeah, actually dented the tip of the hollow point.:ohmy:

[blackbird94]

oops, wrong forum. thought I clicked the CW section, you can move this if you want

[gb6491]

Had the CW45 at the range today, along with a bunch of other stuff. Pulled the CW out to try the new Fiocchi XTP defense ammo I just bought. Magazine, rack it, doesn't go to battery. drop the mag, rack it. That round ejects, next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber. Ended the range day. put it in a padded case. Locked it into the trunk. A quick 10 minute run to the gun shop/gunsmith. 5 minutes and $25 later, all is good again. Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol. It's a Horrandy XTP bullet in a Fiocchi case. Yes factory new rounds. Off tomorrow to see if the shop where I bought them will let me swap for core bon or golden saber. Oh yeah, actually dented the tip of the hollow point.
"Turns out, the cone on this round is too steep to go up the ramp. Shop said it's fairly common with this short a barrel pistol."
I doubt that's the case. From what you wrote earlier, "next one jams, solid. not into battery, slide will not move. Can't rack it, can't tap it into battery. I'm stuck with an inoperable pistol with a hot round almost into the chamber.", I'd guess that the XTP has engaged the barrel's rifling preventing the round from going into battery and also making it difficult to extract.

This can happen because of the round's overall length or because of the bullet's shape. We see this some in Kahr CW45s. IMO this is because they have a short amount of free bore/leade cut into the barrel. Here's a drawing to illustrate:
http://i42.tinypic.com/10fnptx.jpg
The top barrel has a short amount of free bore/leade in front of the chamber. I think it's pretty easy to see how some rounds might have a length or bullet that could contact the barrel's rifling when chambered.

As a quick test, remove the barrel and lightly drop a round into the chamber. The round should seat with the back of the case flush with or very slightly below the rear of the barrel hood: (image originally posted by John boy on SASS.net)
http://i58.tinypic.com/15d53ic.png
My guess is that your ammo will be slightly protruding (as in the far right above; the photo illustrates correct head spacing, but applies here).
If this is the case, I think you have about three options:
1. switch to an ammo that seats flush when you drop it into the chamber and operates correctly in your pistol.
2. Return it to Kahr for repair.
3. Have a local gunsmith ream the barrel to increase the "free bore".

I guess there's also a chance that your chamber is tight. If you can wiggle the round a little when it's in the chamber then I doubt this is an issue.

Abraxxas posted some excellent photos when he had a similar problem. In his case the free bore/leade was not cut evenly; you can see where he has adequate free bore/leade in the second photo and insufficient in the third:

I've read numerous posts online about Kahr's being picky about what ammo they will chamber and wont due to their tight chambers. I want to share what I found with mine tonight after I locked it up tight today on it's first trip to the range while attempting to chamber one of my target loads after 100rds of Remington factory ball ammo.

I pulled the barrel out for cleaning tonight and attempted to chamber some various ammo by dropping them in while holding the barrel. I found some dropped right in while others stopped short of fully chambering. This is easier than trying to pry my action open like I had to do at the range today I found that hollow points with a pronounced shoulder on them like Hornady XTP's and the Nosler Custom Competition 185's that I love to load so much for my other 45's were what caused the problem.

I took one that wouldnt chamber and dropped it in until it stopped and then grabbed the base of the shell with my fingers and twisted it back and forth about 90 deg while light pressing forward and pulled it out. The barrel is steel, the bullet jacket and shell case are soft metals so I knew the barrel/chamber should leave marks on the cartridge where it is hanging up. It was on the shoulder of the bullet as pictured below. On the left is a Nosler 185 handload and on the right is a Federal HydraShok. The Hydrashok drops right in, the Nosler does not... notice the difference in profiles close to the case mouth. The Hydrashok has a profile very similar to ball ammo until the top, so it chambers.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5811.jpg

Because the marks from me twisting the cartridge in the chamber are on the bullet and not the casing, I started to look at the barrel and not the chamber. The chamber is no tighter than than my other 45's just by feeling the amount of freeplay with a cartdridge fully chambered. Pictured below is the lead-in to the rifling in my barrel.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5804.jpg

It is a steeper angle than my other 45's, but not that much different... why is it touching the bullet before the cartridge is fully chambered I wondered? As Im staring at it scratching my head I noticed that the lead-in is not uniform. Pictured above is the left side of my barrel, pictured below is the right side of my barrel. Notice the difference in the angle of the bevel on the beginning of the rifling.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/Abraxxas/DSC_5803.jpg

THIS is why it will not chamber the bullets with a more pronounced shoulder profile. Is this considered defective? Normal? I dont know, this is my first Kahr. Perhaps some of you could take a look and see if your picky eater looks like this? I could get around this by changing the bullet seating depth of my target loads to work with this gun so Im not terribly concerned about it myself at this point. I did however want to share my findings because I've read a fair amount about folks having picky eaters that wont chamber certain types of ammo. Many of the threads on various forums/reviews seem to have the XTP style bullet causing the problems.

Brian

FWIW, my CW45 had this issue with Hornady 230gr. XTP. It happened with less frequency and became easier to clear as I put more rounds through the pistol, but I eventually bought a reamer and cut more free bore/leade into the barrel. Issue fixed.
http://i58.tinypic.com/rc7tc7.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/w1s1s1.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/1zl9kdy.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[yqtszhj]

I bought a bunch of Fiocchi ball ammo for the range. I think the overall length is a tad too long for my cm45 also because I get the occasional FTF. Hornady doesnt work in my cw45 either. I can run blazer, pmc, and speer gold dots all day long in either 45. Just pick another ammo and you'll be good to go.

[yqtszhj]

Another good post Greg.

[blackbird94]

this dented the tip of the hollow point. right at the end. will be checking fit before getting the next batch. been shooting 230gr fmj with 0 problems. glad I tried them at the range instead of in a critical situation

[blackbird94]

switched to Cor-Bon Power Ball 165gr +P no feed problems at all. Thanks to the gun shop for letting me try the feed action before I bought them.. ON TARGET Kalamazoo MI

[warbird1]

Great choice. Cor-Bon Pow'Rball is what I carry in my CW40. Works perfectly.

[downtownv]

Gregs' The Best, Right?

[Bawanna]

He is yes.

I look at that reamer and for the life of me I can't figure out how it works. No cutter surface where it's needed to increase the freebore. I'm missing something here which is not at all uncommon.

[gb6491]

He is yes.

I look at that reamer and for the life of me I can't figure out how it works. No cutter surface where it's needed to increase the freebore. I'm missing something here which is not at all uncommon.
It's a little hard to see in the photo Colonel (my apologies):
http://i57.tinypic.com/2zrgb9f.jpg
I didn't measure the reamer, so it might be that the cutting section could cut deeper than the groove depth, but I haven't experienced that on the barrel's I've cut.
Regards,
Greg

[gun papa]

Two decades ago, I used to work at a really large outdoor range. Pistol slides stuck in, or just out of battery was an occasional occurrence. Because your arm strength is generally not enough to free this malfunction, it can be very unnerving. We had a simple tool to free the slide and extract the stuck live round.

Some may find this objectionable or unsafe, but I content that having a pistol with a stuck live round in it can be more dangerous.

PLEASE NOTE: When using this device, you are NOT FIRING THE GUN!!!!!!!!!

I made a hasty example of this device. I bear no responsibility for its use/misuse.

1. The device is placed on a soft surface, such as grass (as indicated in the pictures).

2. The pistol barrel/muzzle is placed on the PVC pipe opening.

3. Using the weight of your torso, you push the pistol down against the PVC pipe.

4. The PVC pipe pushes back against the face of the slide, the barrel goes into the PVC pipe, thus freeing the slide and the lodged live round.



http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/gunpapa/slide2_zpsce849090.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/gunpapa/media/slide2_zpsce849090.jpg.html)

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y131/gunpapa/slide3_zps94ca6f72.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/gunpapa/media/slide3_zps94ca6f72.jpg.html)


Another TIP: Never use a fiberglass rod to dislodge a squib or stuck round. The rod can shatter in your barrel and get stuck. (No I did not do this, but I saw it done.)

[Bawanna]

That's a fine idea there gun poppa. I found I had some long cartridges while at the range that apparently allowed the bullet to jamb into the lands. I just used an old short cleaning rod. Put it in the barrel and tapped it against a hard surface while trying to pull the slide back. I ruined one aluminum rod (junk anyhow) tapping hard enough.

Your device is relying on the extractor to pull the case out and should work fine most of the time and is probably safer too. Folks get nervous with a cleaning rod in the barrel of a loaded gun even though its out of battery and not gonna fire.

[gun papa]

Your device is relying on the extractor to pull the case out and should work fine most of the time and is probably safer too. Folks get nervous with a cleaning rod in the barrel of a loaded gun even though its out of battery and not gonna fire.

The slide is stuck forward for any reason, the device I posted should work to free it. If the case after that remains stuck, you would have to tap it out. All of the stuck in battery slides I have encountered were with extractors intact, the extractor holding the rim of the stuck case, thus, slide stuck too.

[Bawanna]

Agreed. Your device allows much more useable force than hands alone and safer too.

If the case remains the extractor is probably damaged or sheared off. Still not a deal breaker when your making the gun safe.