Best practice distance for quick double tap firing

[Allen]

At my last trip to the gun range I decided to see how accurate I could be by picking up my CM9 quickly off a shelf and firing 2-3 rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger instead of seeing how many rounds I could put in a saucer with very careful aiming. At 15-18 feet I could always keep those 2-3 rounds in the human shape target somewhere between the waist and shoulders.

How much further should I be able to do this for personal protection? I figured if I was to wake up in the middle of the night with somone prowling around in my house, or even bedroom, I'm not going to be taking timed careful aiming.

I was surprised I could even hit the target, but hopefully with more practice I'll be able to get my shots more centered in the target. Kind of like shooting a shotgun, you see the sight and the direction it's pointing but don't take time to concentate on it.

[b4uqzme]

We shot an IDPA event Saturday. The target is an 8 inch center-of-mass circle or a 6 inch head shot. We were required to put two shots on target from distances varying from 3 feet to 20 yards. All while moving and/or from various cover. IDPA is training for just the type scenario you mention. I recommend it to everyone. Or practice your double taps from varying distances and you'll find yourself improving quickly. Jm2cents.

[muggsy]

If you can consistently place your shots on a standard sheet of typing paper from 7 yards or 21 feet I'd say that you are reasonably good to go.

[Allen]

Wow. At 15-20 feet I don't do too bad, but 20 yards, that's getting out there some. At that distance I'd be surprised if I could hit an 8" disc with the little CM9 taking all the time I needed. Maybe with my S&W .357 or .44 mag, but I'm going to need much much more practice with this little 9mm.

[Bawanna]

20 yards is really stretching it for the average CCW holder. It would have to be a real bad situation before I'd shoot at 20 yards and it wouldn't be double taps.

The beauty of distance is the bad guy probably can't hit at that distance either but he might get lucky.

If I'm minute of pie plate at 7-10 yards I consider myself good to go.

[Yogi 117]

20 yards is really stretching it for the average CCW holder. It would have to be a real bad situation before I'd shoot at 20 yards and it wouldn't be double taps.

The beauty of distance is the bad guy probably can't hit at that distance either but he might get lucky.

If I'm minute of pie plate at 7-10 yards I consider myself good to go.
+1...I limit my double tap practice to 10 yards. At my gun club, the next available distance is 25 yards, way way too far for double tap practice. YMMV!

[Allen]

Glad to hear I'm not all that far off for beginning double tap practice at 5-6 yards. Next trip I'll try 8-9 yards, but considering almost 30 feet is practically all the way to the alley from my patio and that's a fair distance. (No I'm not shooting there, just visially imaging how far that is). Not sure I'll ever be able to do it but am going to try.

[b4uqzme]

I think the logic is that, if you can practice to hit varying distances (including up to 20 yards), you should be able to be effective if you ever get into a real world situation. I practiced double taps at the standard 7 yards and thought I was pretty good. I found out different at my first IDPA event where I was on the clock and moving and sometimes shooting moving targets, etc. I'm thankful for the training.

[TruckGun]

Great thread, thanks guys!

[Akoustic]

I hit the range twice a month. Session starts with Mozambique Drills using the CM9 at 5 yards, 84 rounds.

Fall back to 10 yards same drills, 84 rounds. Out comes the 1911, 10 yards, same Mozambique Drill, 36 rounds.

Session ends with more deliberate, but not too slow, shooting at 20 yards 36 rounds. It is true when folks say the CM9 is not a range gun, however, spend a little more time pointing and shooting you will find it to be a devastating and accurate defensive weapon.

[TheTman]

Good example of the Mozambique Drill, or Triple Tap done in under a second. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QrWm3Acc0

[TheTman]

Good example of the Mozambique Drill, or Triple Tap done in under a second, including drawing the weapon from the holster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QrWm3Acc0

[CPTKILLER]

Practice at the range you plan to engage a target at. This works for me from my Kahr MK9 to a M60A3 tank.

[TheTman]

Good example of the Mozambique Drill, or Triple Tap done in under a second, including drawing the weapon from the holster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8QrWm3Acc0

Unfortunately, that would get you kicked out of the two indoor ranges I shoot at. They require 1 second between each shot. You can get away with the occasional double tap. It's best to do it when there are a few others shooting so they aren't sure who did it. Or if it was just two different guns going off. You'd best not mess up and hit the wires holding and sending the targets back and forth, or you're banned from the range for a while. And I think they make you pay for the repair, if you want to shoot there again.

[Allen]

That's funny that someone could throw lead that wild cause it reminds me of my trip to the range to qualify on the 1911 .45 during my National Guard days back in the late 50's when I was 18-20 years old. The target was big as a house door, the bullseye was big as a dinner plate, and only about 15-18 feet away. Heck, back home I shot coke cans further away than that with my Hi-Standard .22 pistol. Familiarization went fine but during the 5-round sustained timed fireing I saw dirt fly up once about 2/3s the way to the target. Surely wasn't me, but then I realized I was the only one at the range at that time, so I thought boy I'd better get on the ball and quit jerking on the trigger. I finally qualified "Expert" but realized in a hurry that the 1911 was a lot different from my 6" barrel .22.

[muggsy]

There you go T-man repeating yourself again, but I guess that drill was worth watching twice. :p Nice shooting. Great post. Both of them.

[schtever]

Couple of comments on this:

1) +1 to muggsy's 7 yard suggestion.
2) The video demonstration includes competition holster (low cut in the front), no concealment, very close range, and some superpowers ;).
3) At our club, we have a test where you start from the holster, draw and fire 2 rounds, with both hitting an 8" in. circle, from 7 yards within 2.5 seconds. And be able to do this three times in a row. No concealment. This is not super challenging, but enough to make you keep in practice. Add another .25 or .5 for the third head shot?

[xr1200guy]

7 yards is probably about right,but I practice a lot of ccw stuff at 10 yards.

[garyb]

I think the logic is that, if you can practice to hit varying distances (including up to 20 yards), you should be able to be effective if you ever get into a real world situation. I practiced double taps at the standard 7 yards and thought I was pretty good. I found out different at my first IDPA event where I was on the clock and moving and sometimes shooting moving targets, etc. I'm thankful for the training.

b4uqzme is giving you excellent advice. It is far too common to hear guys say that 20 yrds is a stretch. Not the case at all. There is no better training to stretch your gun handling skills, as b4uqzme suggests. Until you try it, you will not realize how it is possible to shoot well at longer distances, quickly, while moving, targets moving, changing mags, various shooting positions, using cover, etc.... Static range practice is OK practice. However, IDPA offers real world situations and allows you to experienced gun handling that will take you to a new level of SD skill sets.

[Dave Nowlin]

The problem with all this is when you get in court and try to explain that you took 3 shots at a guy 60 feet away with a knife in his hand while your adrenaline was flowing and missed 2 of the 3 shots. The CM9/PM9 handguns are best used in up close and personal SD situations. These situations occur suddenly with no warning and the assailant will in all probability be 7 yards or less from you. At least that's what the statistics compiled by the real experts say. If I find myself in a situation where I must shoot someone in my house those distances would apply. The only way I would shoot at another person at 20 yards is if they were attempting to shoot at me from that distance. The average criminal won't disclose his intent from that great of a distance. If I am preparing for that kind of scenario I will be carrying my Sig 220 Carry SAO or my Sig 229 or my Kimber CDP Pro. They all have a longer sight radius and are easier to shoot well quickly and from a distance. An on duty police officer would consider these little Kahr pistols as suitable for backup duty. The guy shooting the drill in the video wasn't shooting a small pistol. My Glock 19 would be well suited for that. The long trigger pull in these weapons doesn't make them ideal for that type of drill. The reset is too long to allow extreme accurate speed shooting.

[berettabone]

When I am lucky enough to be alone at the gun club, I can get away with doubles, or just faster shooting. With the Kahr, I stay at 7 yds. or under. We have a small part of the range, at the beginning, which is about 7ft. distance. You will see many shooters visit this target at the beginning or at the end, to shoot their smaller conceal firearms. I ran into a guy that was shooting his Kimber .45, and he was showing me how he could pretty much put the bullets through the same hole. He admitted that from 25 yds. was a totally different story. I looked at his firearm, and it was nice, then proceeded to put 3 shots through the same hole on the target with my MK9. I admitted the same about the 25 yds. He smiled and also admitted that the price of the firearm doesn't mean much at 7 ft............................................

[jkar4242]

7, 10, 25, here is a thought. In today's world if you end up in civil court and you will the closer the action the better for you. Me, if it is 25 yds I will do whatever I can to avoid having to shoot.

jkar

[Dave Nowlin]

There we have somebody talking sense. At 25 yards you had better do everything you can to avoid the fight. The prosecutor will introduce you to reality if you don't and will likely win. If the BG is 10 yards or shorter away and attempting to attack you, the balance changes in your favor. Let's face it folks in many jurisdictions no matter how close the BG is you will find yourself in court. Whether or not you have to spend your life savings after a justified SD shooting depends on the circumstances. Please stack the odds in your favor. Don't act like Jason Bourne. That's the movies not reality.

[b4uqzme]

Coulda sworn we were talking about practice. ....

[muggsy]

I use to practice shooting between my legs using a mirror. That's why my wife calls me shorty. :)

[jocko]

teach her alittle etique Muggsy, she could at leat address u aqs Mr. Shorty. Just sayin

[jocko]

what the hell u should know by now our posts are like a railroad terminal. the tracks go everywhere. One starts out on track but sopon gets switched. Justy sayin. Have u ever rEAD THREE OSTS IN A ROW THAT WAS on track?? on this forum. It ckan't er done with guys like Muggsy, Downtown, Bawanna and a few utters. thank god I am not in thgat group either. Just sayin

[Dave Nowlin]

We were talking about practicing but why not practice for reality. The PM9 and CM9 are really up close and personal SD weapons. Most of us have better weapons we can use for 25 yard double taps.

[b4uqzme]

We were talking about practicing but why not practice for reality. The PM9 and CM9 are really up close and personal SD weapons. Most of us have better weapons we can use for 25 yard double taps.


My only point is not to limit your practice. You never know what could really happen. The more proficient you are at various distances, with all your firearms, the better.

[muggsy]

My only point is not to limit your practice. You never know what could really happen. The more proficient you are at various distances, with all your firearms, the better.

That makes sense even to me. The more you shoot the better you get, with one notable exception. I won't mention any names, but his PMJ9 has over 32,000 rounds through it. Course, if he'd uncross his eyes he might do a little better, but that's Jocko for ya. (Dang, I wasn't going to mention his name.) :)

[garyb]

My only point is not to limit your practice. You never know what could really happen. The more proficient you are at various distances, with all your firearms, the better.

Once again, b4uqzme makes an excellent point. If the discussion is about practice...which it seems to be for now....practice is about gaining proficiency at various distances within reason. The better you are at longer distances, the easier and faster it will become at closer SD distances. No one is disputing that we should be engaged in SD at long distances. That is not the point at all. The point which b4uqzme wisely makes, is to train to expand your ability so that you are better trained for close encounters. It is the same in archery where we train to shoot proficiently out to 60-70 yrds. By doing so, when we have a shot at a deer at 20-30 yards, the shot seems much easier and we are much more confident to make that shot. Now please don't confuse what I am saying to mean that we train with a bow at 70 yards or with a handgun at 20 yrds, in order to make a handgun SD shot at 20 or 70 yards....because that would truly be silly. We train at longer distances to become more confident and proficient for SD application at shorter distances. It is that simple and if you don't want to do this... then don't. And if you have other weapons to practice at longer distances because you don't feel the PM should be practiced at long distances...then use them if you wish. Or practice at longer distances with what you carry. It is your choice, but I totally agree with b4uqzme. He obviously knows what he is talking about.

[Dave Nowlin]

While I understand your point in archery, you're forgetting something. You use the same bow for the 70 yard shot that you do for the 20 yard shot. The arrow rest is the same and so are the sights. To practice at longer yardages with a PM9 is little more than a waste of ammo. The sight radius is too short and the gripping surface is too small. I have many other weapons that I caary regularly that are far better suited to the task.

[Barth]

I like 7-10 yards for self defense practice.
Nothing wrong with varying distance.
But nobody is going to attempt to rob me at 25 yards.
At that distance I'm looking for cover.
That's just me talking...

[JGIORD]

I do the opposite of Akoustic. When I get to the range I first do some practice with COM and head shots. Then once i'm settled in I start doing Mozambique drills at 30 feet. I can set up the target to show itself for 2 seconds then hide for 3 seconds as it flips sideways.

[Dave Nowlin]

123

[garyb]

To practice at longer yardages with a PM9 is little more than a waste of ammo. The sight radius is too short and the gripping surface is too small. I have many other weapons that I caary regularly that are far better suited to the task.

Perhaps your statement is true... for you...But there are folks out there who can shoot short sight radius handguns very accurately at 20-25 yrds....or more. To prove this point, my trainer overheard some guys speaking about short sight radius guns not having long distance accuracy...and calling them no more than belly guns. He stepped up to the line with them and fired at the gong with his glock27 and hit it...saying, "yea, these short, sub compacts aren't worth a damn at long distances!" There is no question that there are guns with longer sight radius which make it easier. My PM40 is very capable of shooting 25 yrds and so am I. It is not your gun wasting the ammo my friend.

[KingWulfgar]

Perhaps your statement is true... for you...But there are folks out there who can shoot short sight radius handguns very accurately at 20-25 yrds....or more. To prove this point, my trainer overheard some guys speaking about short sight radius guns not having long distance accuracy...and calling them no more than belly guns. He stepped up to the line with them and fired at the gong with his glock27 and hit it...saying, "yea, these short, sub compacts aren't worth a damn at long distances!" There is no question that there are guns with longer sight radius which make it easier. My PM40 is very capable of shooting 25 yrds and so am I. It is not your gun wasting the ammo my friend.

Yeah, watch some of Hickok45's videos if you think you can't hit long distances with these compacts and sub-compacts. That guy is a good shot! I do ok out to 25 yards with most of my pistols regardless of barrel length. Even my LCR357 is pretty accurate at that distance as long as I concentrate on the trigger.

[berettabone]

If you have the wearwithall, and the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, why not shoot your carry firearm at 25 yds. Probably won't be needed, but what the hey. I usually shoot between 15-25 rds. at 25 yds. It's enough to show me where I'm at, as far as accuracy, from that range.

[bob98366]

Two things.

Varying practice distance helps a lot with shorter range accuracy and consistency. Longer distances quickly point out errors.

Not all scenarios are close range. Our house floor plan is open concept so from our bedroom door to the patio door is a clear shot 15 yds. I'm not going to give a home intruder BG time to get to 5-7 yds before shooting.

[garyb]

KingWolfgar, berettabone and bob98366,
Your statements precisely reflect my exact point. When my trainer shot his G27 at 100 yrds and hit the gong, his point was that they are capable. His statement was being facetious, by saying they aren't worth a damn at long distances. If you can practice at longer distances (20-25 yrds), why not? These PM subcompacts are very capable. Not all shooters are able to shoot them to their full potential as far as accuracy is concerned...and they blame the gun's short sight radius. It's not the gun, it's the shooter. Why not shoot your carry firearm at 25? As berettabone stated, they probably wont be needed at that distance, but for practice and training, the longer distances (ie., 20-25 yrds) will help with shorter distances. It is a fact, and I agree with you three gentlemen.

[Dave Nowlin]

It is your money and your ammo. I have watched many of Hickok45s videos. I've also watched him miss the gong many times. I've watched him shoot all around that last row of animals short of the gong. He doesn't miss much inside 15 yards even when shooting fast. I believe he has that that the gong is at 80 yds. That said the last row of animals is probably about 60 yds. He misses them regularly when shooting fairly slowly and deliberately. The triple tap drill that has been spoken of would definitely be a waste of ammo at that distance. I expect it would also be a waste of ammo at 25 yds if you are shooting as fast as you can manipulate the trigger.

[SlowBurn]

Coulda sworn we were talking about practice. ....

http://youtu.be/Vw-Vu-SyMu4

[b4uqzme]

http://youtu.be/Vw-Vu-SyMu4


;) "...last I checked, practice makes perfect." Karl Malone.

[garyb]

It's about practice....training and pushing your personal limits. Just practice. That's never a waste of ammo.

[kwh]

Nothing wrong with just having fun. Does not have to be always about practice.

[b4uqzme]

...or having fun while practicing. This isn't trombone lessons. :rolleyes:

Back to my original post about IDPA (that started all this hullabaloo about long distances). Garyb is dead right that stretching yourself makes you better at the close stuff that may save your life some day. But you may not be very fast at first at the longer distances. IDPA trains you to keep your shots in an 8 inch circle while also being on the clock. I started by shooting as fast as I could but still close to the target. Over time, I am getting both faster and more accurate. Last event I had the second highest accuracy rating but I was pretty slow. I'll get better. It was tremendous fun and certainly not a waste of ammo.

[garyb]

...or having fun while practicing. This isn't trombone lessons. :rolleyes:

Back to my original post about IDPA (that started all this hullabaloo about long distances). Garyb is dead right that stretching yourself makes you better at the close stuff that may save your life some day. But you may not be very fast at first at the longer distances. IDPA trains you to keep your shots in an 8 inch circle while also being on the clock. I started by shooting as fast as I could but still close to the target. Over time, I am getting both faster and more accurate. Last event I had the second highest accuracy rating but I was pretty slow. I'll get better. It was tremendous fun and certainly not a waste of ammo.

Excellent points. I started like a snail because I was focused on safety. My trainer advised me to go slow and focus on not shooting myself...LOL. Now my accuracy rating and times are better than his. He no longer provides me tips on the game, but that's OK. He got me started and I am WELL on my way. Again, static practice and close range double taps are OK....certainly better practice than nothing at all. But after shooting IDPA, static practice gets kind of boring. IDPA will sky rocket your gun handling and shooting skills....making you much, much better for SD. If you are one of those who feels that you are only good with your SD gun at close ranges....please do yourself a favor and reconsider your potential. That kind of thinking only demonstrates that your training is limited and you are not very confident in your skills. Visit an IDPA match to see what it is about. You will enjoy the people. They are very helpful. You will be better for it.

[b4uqzme]

My trainer advised me to go slow and focus on not shooting myself...LOL.

That kinda brings up a point that I failed to mention. IDPA has rules to follow...safety rules plus procedural rules, etc. The rules are important but even more so is that they force you to THINK while you are under the stress of moving, shooting for accuracy, and doing it all quickly. In a real world situation, it will be paramount to keep your wits about you. I can't see where you get that from static practice.

[SlowBurn]

That kinda brings up a point that I failed to mention. IDPA has rules to follow...safety rules plus procedural rules, etc. The rules are important but even more so is that they force you to THINK while you are under the stress of moving, shooting for accuracy, and doing it all quickly. In a real world situation, it will be paramount to keep your wits about you. I can't see where you get that from static practice.

Just saw this video of a bad ass security guard from a couple years ago. From the way he draws, shoots, moves, keeps focused on the threat, uses cover, etc he almost HAS to be an IDPA shooter. Great real world example of how to do it.

http://youtu.be/mt7TzgRMtB4

[TheLastDaze]

That kinda brings up a point that I failed to mention. IDPA has rules to follow...safety rules plus procedural rules, etc. The rules are important but even more so is that they force you to THINK while you are under the stress of moving, shooting for accuracy, and doing it all quickly. In a real world situation, it will be paramount to keep your wits about you. I can't see where you get that from static practice.

They were holding the IDPA Nationals here at USSA in Tulsa for about a week, was at the range the other day and they had to medically evacuate one of the shooters, not sure what happened but he was obviously hit... I'm really interested in joining, I'm looking for an owb holster and couple mag pouches...

be careful out there