View Full Version : CM9 cleaning - afterwards there are problems
odn08
08-11-2014, 11:02 AM
So i've put around 400 rounds through this weapon by now. Last time i took it to the range it performed awesome, no jams, no issues. I've had it at home for 2 days now and finally got around to cleaning it today. After i put it back together, i slapped in a 6 round mag, hit the slide catch and boom, a nosedive. I've never seen that before. I tried it again, another nosedive. The rounds were totally pushed in and deformed. I racked it a couple times to lube it/smooth it out. Then hit the slide catch, and it chambered the round, however upon inspection, the round (hollow point) is deformed. The hollow point is pushed back into its cartridge. This is pissing me off. How can you clean a gun, and it ends up being worse than before? I dissasembled, reassembled a couple times to make sure it was put together right. It seems to be.
Now it will chamber rounds, but deform them as said earlier.
Kahr wants me to send it back, the tech rep was completely unhelpful, not giving any advice/or information saying he's never heard of this before (really??). this is turning into a major pain in the ass.
Anybody come across this issue?
DavidR
08-11-2014, 11:20 AM
Did you check the magazine? I had the same issue with my CW380. Flawless at range. Clean, lube, nosedive. It was a mag problem.
yqtszhj
08-11-2014, 12:24 PM
Did you check the magazine? I had the same issue with my CW380. Flawless at range. Clean, lube, nosedive. It was a mag problem.
Exactly what I was thinking. If you took apart the mag spring make sure the spring is angled at the top the same direction as the follower. Oh, make sure the follower isn't damaged too.
odn08
08-11-2014, 01:07 PM
I didn't touch the magazines at all. Been working flawlessly at the range. The only thing changed in the equation is the gun that i took apart, cleaned and minorly (small small amount) lubed with clp.
odn08
08-11-2014, 01:13 PM
also i noticed before it was taken apart that the feed ramp was angled a little to the right upon inspection of the chamber, i though that weird but it worked great. After the dissasembly/cleanup/assembly, i noticed it straight up and down, neither angled to the right or left. Could this be a part of the problem?
deadeye
08-11-2014, 05:43 PM
Do you have another mag to try?
codegeek
08-11-2014, 05:56 PM
Ah, the notorious nose dive issue. *sigh* CM9s seem to be more resistant to this phenomenon. Kahr is in denial about that and their broken follower issue. The follower mod solved this problem with my CW9. My CM9 doesn’t have this problem.
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odn08
08-11-2014, 06:35 PM
I used it on all three mags. Two 7's, 1 6. When i chamber a round again, it just keeps smashing that hollow point inside its expensive cartridge lol. ****** A.
DavidR
08-11-2014, 06:41 PM
With the slide open, insert a loaded mag slowly and see if the bullet is contacting the slide release and being pushed nose down.
DavidR
08-11-2014, 06:59 PM
I guess you could double check that the recoil springs are oriented correctly. Open end toward the muzzle. Beyond that you're going to need more help than I can offer. Linking to a picture might be helpful.
muggsy
08-11-2014, 07:08 PM
The first place to look is at the last thing that was done to the gun. You shot it. You field stripped it. You cleaned it. You reassembled it. My guess would be that you reassembled incorrectly. Did you read the manual? Did you watch the field strip video. Might be a good place to start.
odn08
08-11-2014, 07:36 PM
thanks guys for your help. i'm gonna send it back to kahr, i'll let you know what they say.
AnthonyC
08-12-2014, 06:40 AM
I guess you could double check that the recoil springs are oriented correctly. Open end toward the muzzle. Beyond that you're going to need more help than I can offer. Linking to a picture might be helpful.
I agree with this. It solved a couple of my problems. Make sure the point of the recoil spring on the guide did is pointed towards the barrel.
Good luck!
sluggo48313
11-08-2014, 11:20 AM
This is the exact problem I'm having with my new CM9. I cleaned mine before going to the range. Fired 125 rounds through two 6 round and one 7 round clips, no problems. Come home last night, took it apart, cleaned it, and when I went I went to rack it the bullet nose dived and the slide stuck back. I've tried all three mags. I took it apart again and now if I put just one or two bullets in a clip I can rack it and the slide doesn't stop at all. If I try to insert a full clip it nosedives. What did I do wrong? How can anyone trust this gun as a carry piece if its that sensitive or defective. I am really disappointed.
MBSL500
11-08-2014, 06:01 PM
This is why I always put the old dirt back in after I give my PM9 a good cleaning.
codegeek
11-08-2014, 06:04 PM
This is why I always put the old dirt back in after I give my PM9 a good cleaning.
Aww milbus, you're so cute when you aren't crying about broken followers.
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muggsy
11-08-2014, 06:05 PM
This is why I always put the old dirt back in after I give my PM9 a good cleaning.
That's a classic. :)
MBSL500
11-08-2014, 06:31 PM
Now Mr. Geek,
If you'll check, you'll find that I've never cried about a broken follower.
I've only pointed out that Kahr continues to sell guns with known problems to unsuspecting customers.
That's not crying, it's simply pointing out what is a well known and persistent problem to potential Kahr customers.
And now Mr. Geek, it seems that along with broken followers and putting magazine springs in backwards, customers should probably
avoid cleaning them too.
Sloman
11-08-2014, 07:10 PM
Is Kahr beta testing their guns through their "warranty"? We buy, we find the problems on our dime?
Ok, first off... field strip the gun again, check everything, put it back together, paying close attention to the relationship of the little spring that controls the slide stop.
Check the underside of the slide. There should be a little bevel at the front edge. If that bevel is missing, upon magazine insertion the top round might not get fully engaged on the breech face, and if so... it nosedives. You might need a hair more bevel. Could have been the way you slammed mags home that got it working ok.
My first PM9 had that issue, but I caught it before I ever fired it. A 45 degree bevel about oh... 1/32 wide is all ya need, just a little relief so the round in the magazine can positively move upward into its feed position.
Just some stuff to check.
And - if that don't work, back to the mudder ship!
Sloman
11-08-2014, 07:29 PM
You know, I never had problems like this with my Glocks. What's going on at Kahr?.? Let the flames begin. LOL! seriously though. I've had more problems with Kahrs than any other guns I've had, and I've had plenty. What's with their quality control?
Google -
Suffolk County Glock
No flames, they all screw up from time to time, and under production stress.... I can see more going out with an issue.
The workers get paid by the piece. They're supposed to check lots of stuff, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. If it comes back I'm sure their piece work dollars take a hit. Hey you got a thousand out the door this month, but seventeen came back... ya know how that goes.
MBSL500
11-08-2014, 08:19 PM
You know, I never had problems like this with my Glocks. What's going on at Kahr?.? Let the flames begin. LOL! seriously though. I've had more problems with Kahrs than any other guns I've had, and I've had plenty. What's with their quality control?
Some excellent questions.
smokersteve
11-09-2014, 11:19 AM
You know, I never had problems like this with my Glocks. What's going on at Kahr?.? Let the flames begin. LOL! seriously though. I've had more problems with Kahrs than any other guns I've had, and I've had plenty. What's with their quality control?
Ditto
smokersteve
11-09-2014, 11:23 AM
Google -
Suffolk County Glock
I did and don't see what you are getting at
Glock suppressed it then. Suffolk County PD in LINY had an officer drop the slide, chambering a round, and it went off. The PD blamed him, and he swore up and down, his finger was noplace near the trigger. That was case zero. After that, other (I believe Gen 2) Glocks started slam firing in the SCPD. Its a large PD by the way, my dad was high up in its seniority and position when he retired from there.
Anyway, the problem got found in PD's all across the USA, and also in private hands... and Glock never really.... ya know... put their arms around it.
Just sayin.
Ok, google "dangerous glocks" and start reading.
Lots of folks have perfectly fine Glocks that run well.
Lots of folks have perfectly fine Kahrs that run well.
And Ruger, and Smith&Wesson, and Browning, and Colt, and Sig, and so on.
You hear about problems on line, precisely in a place as this. Kahr does not supress issues. Glock has been known to spare no expense in digging a deep hole for its issues and burying them in all sorts of spin, hyperbole and deflection.
Glock rep said "Every time you see a promotion, contest or giveaway from Glock, its because we F'd up and need to keep customer relations positive. We hand out freebies and the problem goes away". Its what they do. Its about image and the PD's using the Glocks. They will preserve that image at all costs. But, they are not problem free.
Alfonse
11-09-2014, 12:42 PM
I didn't touch the magazines at all. Been working flawlessly at the range. The only thing changed in the equation is the gun that i took apart, cleaned and minorly (small small amount) lubed with clp.
New Kahrs like to run wet. I don't know how much the small, small amount of lube is, but that could be the problem.
I have lube on the barrel, rails, and a bit most everywhere. I racked a new CW9 at a store the other day and remembered how tight a new Kahr can be. Stainless can gall, it is not naturally slippery. Even my old, blunt nosed, PM9 gets a thin coat of grease on the barrel and lube on the rails.
I bet I could get any of those Kahrs that "aren't reliable" to work flawlessly.
MBSL500
11-09-2014, 01:19 PM
Ok, google "dangerous glocks" and start reading.
Lots of folks have perfectly fine Glocks that run well.
Lots of folks have perfectly fine Kahrs that run well.
And Ruger, and Smith&Wesson, and Browning, and Colt, and Sig, and so on.
You hear about problems on line, precisely in a place as this. Kahr does not supress issues. Glock has been known to spare no expense in digging a deep hole for its issues and burying them in all sorts of spin, hyperbole and deflection.
Glock rep said "Every time you see a promotion, contest or giveaway from Glock, its because we F'd up and need to keep customer relations positive. We hand out freebies and the problem goes away". Its what they do. Its about image and the PD's using the Glocks. They will preserve that image at all costs. But, they are not problem free.
You are absolutely correct. Every gun manufacturer ships out a bad gun every once in a while.
But this isn't about a manufacturer letting a bad gun slip through the cracks
Kahr has known about this issue for months (if not years) and still continues to ship out guns knowing that there is a darned good chance the gun
will need to come back.
That is simply not the way to do business.
Sending the gun back to be repaired is not the solution.
The solution is stop shipping guns until you know for certain that your customer's gun won't have to come back to be fixed by the "mudder ship".
They could start by dedicating an employee to file / grind / rampectomize every single barrel they have in their inventory so that not one more
gun leaves the Kahr factory with a bad barrel.
It's beyond simple.
Apparently Kahr has decided that it's more cost effective just to continue inconveniencing their customers than it is to actually fix the problem.
The best customer service is not needing customer service.
Alfonse
11-09-2014, 02:13 PM
Kahr, like all companies, might just realize that some people are never going to be happy.
.... ship out guns knowing that there is a darned good chance the gun will need to come back....
Oh really? A darned good chance? REALLY?
And tell me, where do you get such information?
Do you account for, and speak for the thousands of Kahr customers that have no problem?
Or are you one of those who did have a problem and had to have it corrected and carries a chip on their shoulder waiting to be knocked off?
This forum is a place to kvetch. You'll see the problems, and solutions happen here. We account for a small, small percentage of Kahr owners, and Kahr's produced - DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE REST OF THEM.
They deserve better from you, and you know better.
muggsy
11-09-2014, 03:10 PM
Kahr, like all companies, might just realize that some people are never going to be happy.
Amen to that Alfonse. I don't mind a legitimate gripe, but when someone says that the gun worked flawlessly at the range and after cleaning it it doesn't work anymore, I'd say that the problem isn't in the gun. I've never heard of cleaning a gun causing it to malfunction. Neophytes buy these guns, don't take the time to read the manual or watch the dis-assembly/reassembly video. They load them with the cheapest crap ammo that they can find and then blame Kahr when they fail to function properly. There isn't a gun manufacturer in the world that has a perfect track record. They have all had recalls and have all made improvement to their products while in production. My advice to those who come to the site to complain is to go elsewhere. We don't want to hear it.
smokersteve
11-09-2014, 04:04 PM
It cracks me up when someone complains that someone else is complaining.
MBSL500
11-09-2014, 04:12 PM
Oh really? A darned good chance? REALLY?
And tell me, where do you get such information?
Do you account for, and speak for the thousands of Kahr customers that have no problem?
Or are you one of those who did have a problem and had to have it corrected and carries a chip on their shoulder waiting to be knocked off?
This forum is a place to kvetch. You'll see the problems, and solutions happen here. We account for a small, small percentage of Kahr owners, and Kahr's produced - DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE REST OF THEM.
They deserve better from you, and you know better.
My turn
What percentage of CM9's / PM9's have to go back for repair, for the same problem that has plagued customers for months and months, before YOU deem that number to be unacceptable?
Are you ok with 3% having to go back? 5%? 10% of them? 20% of them?
You tell me what number is acceptable to you.
Let me help you here. The answer is 0%.
After knowing the problem for this much time, Kahr should not be sending ANY guns out the door with even the slightest chance of having a follower problem.
None, Zero, Nada.
I assure you, you don't speak for those who laid out good money for a gun and had to send it back....or new buyers who will have to in the future.
Stop defending Kahr when you know darned well that the problem should no longer exist.
Period.
Sloman
11-09-2014, 04:35 PM
I for one have had at least five polymer Kahr's, ALL of which broke or had a problem from the factory. I lost count how many I've had because everyone of them broke and I got tired of dealing with a gun I could not depend my life on. So for a long time I swore I would never buy another Kahr.
One was a PM45 with a trigger that blew out in less than 50 rounds. Then it came back and had ANOTHER problem it did not originally have when I sent it in. And that's just one of the five stories I could tell you.
So why do I have a PM9 now? (and oh, that one just came back from the factory too due to broken followers). Because the Kahr is the best feeling auto I've ever shot and I hope and pray to God that maybe, just maybe, this is the one that will NOT break on me in less than 700 rounds. Keeping my fingers crossed.
I can see and feel MBSL500's pain. I've put out so much money on Kahr's and EVERY ONE (except an all steel K40 I had) have broken or had a factory "defect". And then when you get it back, you end up putting another 100-200 rounds through it JUST TO BE SURE it works! That's about $30-60 worth of ammo.
Kahr's have cost me a LOT of money!
We do not live in a zero percent world. We live in the real world.
To calculate the acceptable rate of failure on the line, you need to look at the impact in direct dollars, and exposure in the market. Direct dollar impact is calculated in rework labor and additional parts, "customer service" costs such as maintaining phone support externally, infrastructure to handle support within the rework department, web support, direct costs of shipping both ways, etc. Impact on market exposure is calculated from direct and indirect feeback, and close monitoring brand sales versus overall market sales.
When the costs related to the problem(s) become a significant impact, then Kahr will take steps to remedy those issues. Thats the way manufacturing operates, or they go out of business.
Justin Moon is smarter than that.
I have no idea why you're pissin' in Kahr's Wheaties, but whatever reason you have, its pretty much not tolerted here. We strongly defend the faith.
Now go bugger off.
Alfonse
11-09-2014, 05:06 PM
@MBSL, what does a broken follower have to do with this thread? The OP is about nosedives and he checked for broken followers, not. While a broken follower may be the most dramatic loss you've suffered, it doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
codegeek
11-09-2014, 05:53 PM
@MBSL, what does a broken follower have to do with this thread? The OP is about nosedives and he checked for broken followers, not. While a broken follower may be the most dramatic loss you've suffered, it doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
He's merely responding to me picking on him.
Now Mr. Geek,
If you'll check, you'll find that I've never cried about a broken follower.
I've only pointed out that Kahr continues to sell guns with known problems to unsuspecting customers.
That's not crying, it's simply pointing out what is a well known and persistent problem to potential Kahr customers.
And now Mr. Geek, it seems that along with broken followers and putting magazine springs in backwards, customers should probably
avoid cleaning them too.
OK. You got me there.
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
One was a PM45 with a trigger that blew out in less than 50 rounds.
Oh I just gotta hear this story.... and tell me... exactly what do you mean by "blew out" after 50 rounds?
MBSL500
11-09-2014, 06:55 PM
Oh I just gotta hear this story.... and tell me... exactly what do you mean by "blew out" after 50 rounds?
Let me take a shot at this one.
My guess is that he used the term (blew out) as merely creative phrasing to indicate that the trigger on his new gun malfunctioned, and he was
no longer able to "shoo t he fokker like he stold it".
@MBSL500
Ya know, you irritate me.
Lookin thru your posts, all you've mostly done is rag on Kahr about one thing or another.
You say you own a PM9, but just a few days ago, it was a PM9 and CM9. Inconsistancy.
You offered two followers for $10 to a guy, the one for $10 to a guy. Inconsistancy.
And that was goin' back just a ways in your online word-tripe.
I thnk you just have an axe to grind, and are making it up as you go.
In fact your only consistant item at all, is your constant whine about Karh this and Kahr that, mostly about busted followers.
Ya know, if you were to be helpful to folks, it might be different. But instead, you ***** and kvetch like an old washwoman.
Sorry.... I'm done with you and I apolgize to the OP for the extreme thread drift. My apologies ODN08... hope your problem gets solved quick n easy!
b4uqzme
11-09-2014, 08:18 PM
I can see and feel MBSL500's pain.
!
Sloman,
I can feel your pain and the pain of others who come here with issues and frustrations. But imbecilefivehundred? I got nothing. He knows his role here and he enjoys it. (I self-edited out the rest of my post because I have too much respect for my fellow members here --- but no respect for imbecile -- not 3%, 5% or 20%, ---ZERO respect ---- period!)
Sloman
11-09-2014, 08:24 PM
By "blew out" I mean the trigger broke. I've had 3 Kahrs with broken triggers.
MBSL500
11-09-2014, 08:33 PM
Matlock,
I had the followers up for for sale here for a while and because they didn't sell, I sold them on E-bay.
If you'd like the E-Bay item number for verification, you just go ahead and ask.
I traded my CM9 for a beautiful FDE Nano...and I love it.
My PM9 is in the capable hands of my son where it now sits in his gun safe.
He carries a Shield 9.
I carry a G27 Gen 4.
You might want to stop taking this gun stuff so personally.
I assure you, you can beat up my Glock, PPQ or Beretta to your heart's content.
I don't identify with my guns so you won't hurt my feelings in the least.
They're just guns for God's sake, not our family members.
Kahr makes some great guns. Most function excellent.
If they get their proverbial cr*p together with the CM9 and PM9, they'd have two more excellent guns.
And like you, I hope the OP get's it sorted out as well.
@MBSL500
Ya know, you irritate me.
Lookin thru your posts, all you've mostly done is rag on Kahr about one thing or another.
You say you own a PM9, but just a few days ago, it was a PM9 and CM9. Inconsistancy.
You offered two followers for $10 to a guy, the one for $10 to a guy. Inconsistancy.
And that was goin' back just a ways in your online word-tripe.
I thnk you just have an axe to grind, and are making it up as you go.
In fact your only consistant item at all, is your constant whine about Karh this and Kahr that, mostly about busted followers.
Ya know, if you were to be helpful to folks, it might be different. But instead, you ***** and kvetch like an old washwoman.
Sorry.... I'm done with you and I apolgize to the OP for the extreme thread drift. My apologies ODN08... hope your problem gets solved quick n easy!
sluggo48313
11-09-2014, 09:06 PM
wow, didn't mean to start a huge flame thread. I did exactly what someone here said. Slept on it. Took it back apart. I did find a small piece of poly (probably 3 or 4 mm) sticking out in the housing that could've effected the movement of the action, (or not?) like a piece of slag. Pulled it off with a pair of needle nose pliers. Re-oiled the main spring and barrel (that were installed correctly BTW). My main problem, I was trying to rack this like a normal 9mm. Put the clip in, and rack it. With this gun the slide comes all the way back and locks back past the slide stop and the round nose dives. Now, after cleaning the mags and making sure the springs are in correctly, and pre-setting the slide in the slide lock position, the gun is working fine.
I will admit I'm sort of a novice, but I do own two other "glock style" 9mm guns, a Ruger LC9 and a Walther PPX. They break down, clean, go together, and rack the same. This gun, while the same style, is different. Now I know how important those differences are. I still like the gun as its smaller than the LC9 and has a slightly shorter trigger. I just hope over time (after another couple hundred rounds) the trigger gets lighter.
codegeek
11-09-2014, 09:16 PM
Matlock,
I had the followers up for for sale here for a while and because they didn't sell, I sold them on E-bay.
If you'd like the E-Bay item number for verification, you just go ahead and ask.
I traded my CM9 for a beautiful FDE Nano...and I love it.
My PM9 is in the capable hands of my son where it now sits in his gun safe.
He carries a Shield 9.
I carry a G27 Gen 4.
You might want to stop taking this gun stuff so personally.
I assure you, you can beat up my Glock, PPQ or Beretta to your heart's content.
I don't identify with my guns so you won't hurt my feelings in the least.
They're just guns for God's sake, not our family members.
Kahr makes some great guns. Most function excellent.
If they get their proverbial cr*p together with the CM9 and PM9, they'd have two more excellent guns.
And like you, I hope the OP get's it sorted out as well.
Dayum milbus. Sounds like you have no need to frequent these parts any more. Thanks for coming around.
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Alfonse
11-09-2014, 09:37 PM
I just hope over time (after another couple hundred rounds) the trigger gets lighter.
Glad you have it working. Lots of folks replace the striker spring with a Wolf spring. It is a 5 lb spring and reduces the trigger pull some. Here is an old thread on it. Seems to work fine for folks. http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?13250-Wolff-5-Striker-Spring
@MBSL500
Ya know, you irritate me.
Pssst.....do you suppose you could try not to make this personal? Posts like this do nothing to enhance this site.
I could avoid making it personal.
But ya know... he's a man on a mision, so I have no real desire to let his little game continue.
Pointblank
11-10-2014, 06:11 AM
Is Kahr beta testing their guns through their "warranty"? We buy, we find the problems on our dime?
All gun companies do that. That is why you should never buy a gun during the first year of issue or redesign.
muggsy
11-10-2014, 03:40 PM
wow, didn't mean to start a huge flame thread. I did exactly what someone here said. Slept on it. Took it back apart. I did find a small piece of poly (probably 3 or 4 mm) sticking out in the housing that could've effected the movement of the action, (or not?) like a piece of slag. Pulled it off with a pair of needle nose pliers. Re-oiled the main spring and barrel (that were installed correctly BTW). My main problem, I was trying to rack this like a normal 9mm. Put the clip in, and rack it. With this gun the slide comes all the way back and locks back past the slide stop and the round nose dives. Now, after cleaning the mags and making sure the springs are in correctly, and pre-setting the slide in the slide lock position, the gun is working fine.
I will admit I'm sort of a novice, but I do own two other "glock style" 9mm guns, a Ruger LC9 and a Walther PPX. They break down, clean, go together, and rack the same. This gun, while the same style, is different. Now I know how important those differences are. I still like the gun as its smaller than the LC9 and has a slightly shorter trigger. I just hope over time (after another couple hundred rounds) the trigger gets lighter.
That OK Sluggo. All is forgiven. All of us were novices at one time or another. Heck, I thought that even I had made a mistake once, but thankfully I was wrong. :) Your trigger will improve with age, but if you just can't wait a 5# striker spring available from Wolff will work wonders. Glad you got your issues worked out. And remember, if you carry a Kahr you are our friend.
muggsy
11-10-2014, 03:41 PM
It cracks me up when someone complains that someone else is complaining.
Who'd do something like that? :)
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