Does Kahr suck that bad??

[TheLastDaze]

obviously my first post and no I'm not trolling... this is a serious question... I've had my LCP pocket rocket for a few years now with zero malfunctions and it has eaten everything I've thrown at it including my handloads.. it always has.... no break in nonsense, kinda reminds me of my beloved glocks but with a really shoddy trigger in comparison... though I've grown used to it...

anyhow I was in the market (still am) for another mouse gun, seriously was debating on a kahr, then I read MOUNDS of bad news... I also bought some of the new Lehigh X tremes off a guy that was getting rid of them because his Kahr P380 wouldn't cylce them, nor any other ammo since he bought it NEW... Kahr told him to overnight it on his dime $60 !!!! He just paid a handsome amount for this piece are they serious??

He has a pm9 and it cycles fine after a few tweaks and has decided to eat it, but feels bad to pass this piece of junk onto someone else, is kahr really charging you guys to send in their overpriced junk?? I mean I'd be pissed to say the least.. Does Kahr even employ someone for QC??

I have since decided its best just to get another Ruger since they have improved their trigger and sights a little, my Elsie will hit 1k rounds after I take it out with me tomorrow and dump 200 more through her, I just added the Hogue grip and 14lb springs and it recoil is at least 1/3 less and if feels great all for a whopping $22 upgrade...

my question is: (now that I'm over the mouse gun debacle as there is no way I'm buying a 380 from kahr) I'm seriously considering picking up a used PM9, most I've seen on GB are from sellers who have pawn shops, probably pawned for a good reason but nonetheless maybe I can pick up a good deal and tweak it here and there to make it run....

I really like kahrs triggers and if glock made a single stack 9 I would've never joined this forum to ask the question...

I'm not going to pick up a gun new so that's not an option as I don't feel like getting hosed, but for a little over $300 if the gun doesn't work after I tweak it then maybe I could sell it to someone here.. ??

should I chance a used kahr pm9?? are they as shoddy as the p380?? a roll of the dice or do they run pretty good?

thx

[Bawanna]

I'm not sure what you want to hear. In the old days the 380's had some teething issues, of late they seem to be good to go.
The majority of all the models are also good to go, I'd venture to say no more issues than any other manufacture.

Kahr has also had some CS teething issues which rumor has it they are working to alleviate.

Buying anything used is a gamble, unless you can shoot it and test it, it's a risk.

I would not be hesitant to buy Kahr new, there's no gamble at all. If it don't run Kahr will fix it.

I haven't drank any Kahr kool aid is quite a spell and so far I've not received any pay checks from them either but their guns work for me.

[CJB]

Three Kahrs a nine and two forty fives. All run great.

[muggsy]

If your friend had requested a prepaid mailing label in all probability Kahr would have obliged, provided that he was the original owner and the gun was still under warranty. They aren't required to do that, but they usually do. Another option is to return the gun through his local FFL. AN FFL can ship a gun for far less than $60. More often than not Kahr pistols function flawlessly, but like most things you are far more likely to hear from people who have problems than from the people who don't. If you like to complain then a Kahr pistol probably isn't for you. If you do buy a Kahr and it doesn't perform to your expectations Kahr's service department is one of the best. Kahr makes some of the finest concealed carry pistols available.

[hardknocks1]

Per the Internet glocks makin a single stack 9 this year.
All 3 9mm kahrs for me been perfect. I have a lcp 380 I'm afraid to trade for the Kahr 380.

[b4uqzme]

You lost me at "my beloved Glocks" (insert smiley face here). Seriously, we all have our own experiences and preferences. Mine have been great with Kahr which is why I stick with them.

You DO know how to make an entrance, I'll give you that. Welcome. Just don't get a sales job.

[CJB]

The problem with comparing the Kahr pistols, especially the PM/CM series, to any other type of pistol, is that the Kahr is purpose built, a speciality pistol. It is made to be small, and must be considered and treated in light of that.

IOW, larger pistols do not need as much, or any "break in". It all has to do with the recoil spring. Larger pistols, better slide travel, breech face over-run, etc etc.... much more forgiving of loads, springs, and holds by the shooter.

You get things very small, there is less room for error. Everything in the mechanism is finely tuned and must operate correctly and perfectly. Look at how much trouble almost any sub 3-3/4 inch 1011 is. You get to 3-1/2 and less length barrels... things get very dicey as far as operation goes. This is not a Kahr issue alone.

[kwh]

Went through the same dilemma several years ago after receiving my CCL All the small carry pistols had their share of problems,according to the internet. Decided on the Kahr CM9 as my EDC pocket pistol because it fit my pocket better than the other small 9's and was not much larger than a lot of the .380"s. Bought new, had a warranty. Saw no need to spend more on the P series. Now also have a CW45 ($350 used) and CW380 ($319.00 new,local gun store). All work just fine,but have to feed ammo the CW45 and CM380 like. You must be willing to break them in. Doubtful if they will be 100% straight out of the box. Another customer bought a $PM380$ from the same store shortly after I did and could not get pistol to shoot more than one round without a failure. He sent the pistol back through the store. I am also a Ruger fan. They all work 100% for me out of the box. However when I field strip my Kahr's and compare the internals & barrel polishing to the Rugers, the Kahrs seem far superior. Also, a feature of the Kahrs almost no one brings up, is that for the same external dimensions the Kahrs always seem to have a longer barrel. Important in the world of short barrel defensive pistol ammo. I would rather carry my CM9 than the CW380. More power and just the right size.

[Jollyrogers]

My used PM9 and new P380 have run fine. The P380 is a little finicky, but not near as bad as the G42 I owned for 5 days. I really like the PM9!!! I took a chance and it was worth it for me... or just wait for that single stack Gxx 9mm, I'll wait until it's been out a while myself before I ever get another Glock, and I too love my Glocks.

[GenericUsername]

FWIW I owned a Kahr and sold it. I only had a single malfunction with it (due to a magazine with a sticky follower) and it was flawless other than that. Kahr makes a great gun however their magazines are terrible. This terribleness is accentuated by the fact that Kahr does very little to ensure the feed ramps so not slam into the follower when firing the last shot of every magazine. As such, it's not uncommon for the front skirt on Kahr magazines to break. You can send your gun in for a few weeks and supposedly they'll fix it but I'm not willing to pay $400 on a product that has a high probability of being flawed straight from the factory.

I keep wanting to get another CM9 but until Kahr has a major overhaul in the QC section I do not see myself returning. YMMV.

[SlowBurn]

My P380 has been sweet. It's a far superior weapon to my LCP. It has been the class of the mouse guns for years according to most independent experts, and I think almost any objective observer would agree. Now that the CW380, which is identical to the P380 in the important features, is available in the same price range as the LCP, choosing the Kahr is a no brainer.

Anyone can have issues with any gun. Sometimes it's the gun sometimes it's the shooter. My LCP was reliable, but Ruger couldn't fix the smiley problem and really wouldn't even acknowledge it. So I don't carry Elsie anymore.

[yqtszhj]

1st kahr cw9
2nd cm9
3rd cw45
4th cm45

All have been excellent. Traded the cw9 for the cm9 ( wish I had just bought it outright). Still have all the rest and don't plan to get rid of any of them.

I have a LCP too but it doesn't get carried any more. Kahrs and a j-frame have taken its place.

[TheLastDaze]

thanks for the responses so far... I really anticipated putting on my flame suit before I checked this thread.....

as far as glocks go I've never had a single hiccup in any of my glocks, I run mixed brass through them and shoot around 1k-1.5k rounds a month, guess you can say I'm a glock fan boy as they simply work... Its a love/hate with glock and I used to be on the hater side, plastic crap etc when they first came to the states... now look at every manufacturer across the board has copied them... gotta say something... if in FACT they do come out with a single stack 9 I'm all over that, and they will kill the market guaranteed, kinda taken back why they came out with the 42 to begin with... I digress

I own and have owned many brands over the years, I like some stuff from Ruger but definitely not everything, in fact I think a lot of what they put out is just nasty from an aesthetics platform... though my lcp has been a dream, its not wore out I'm just after the new one...

again I "wanted" really wanted to buy a kahr 380 either cw or p didn't matter but not sure I want to take the risk in a summer gun.. I love the trigger and really am on the fence about the pm9, I'm no gunsmith but have done a fair share of work to guns, my thoughts are if someone pawned one they were probably new to guns and wasn't aware nor did they care to send it in..

its good to hear they are taking things more seriously at kahr and perhaps need better management and to move out of Massachusetts for a better rep:) I may take the plunge and if I do I'm holding everyone that's posted here personally liable for any hangups....

sold my wife's lc9 with the mickey mouse "loaded indicator" and shoddy trigger and looking to get her the new lc9s striker fire, tried it in a gun store and WOW huge improvement!!! I'm not completely swayed by the internet and sometimes like a challenge so I may make the nestea kahr plunge, again I'll just sell it to the koolaid drinkers and probably buy myself an lc9s as well :p

[TheLastDaze]

apparently my smiley's aren't working in the post above....

[O'Dell]

Seven Kahrs over the last six or seven years, and other than a PM45 and a CW9 that managed to get themselves stolen, not a one has given me any trouble at all. That would be two CW45's, a PM9, an MK40, a CW40, and the afore mentioned PM45 and CW9.

[O'Dell]

perhaps need better management and to move out of Massachusetts for a better rep

:p

I know you were kidding but Kahr is in the process of moving to PA.

[yqtszhj]

I had a glock in the late 80's. Sold it and said I'd never buy another one because the grip was weird. Dont ever say that.

About 3 months ago I held a 30s that has the SF frame. It actually felt pretty good. Bought it. Then traded another gun I never shot for a gen4 19 because they changed the grip with the gen 4 and it felt all right. I still don't like the glock trigger as well as the kahr. If Kahr made a 11 round .45 or a 15 round 9mm the glocks would be gone. The kahr trigger is about the smoothest striker fired trigger there is. I also shoot the kahrs a WHOLE lot better than the glocks because they are so smooth.

[SlowBurn]

apparently my smiley's aren't working in the post above....

I see em in Tapatalk

[TheLastDaze]

checking out a cw9 now.. if the price doesn't get stupid I may have to pick it up.. its new and goes for the used price of a pm9....

though I don't have much trigger time on a kahr, there's no way (for me) its trigger is better than a glock...

[Bawanna]

It's all in what one considers a better trigger. If you desire short pull and fast short reset Glock wins.

If you want a smooth long truly safe (not safe action) like a revolver then Kahr takes the lead.

Depends on the user and the application.

To me the Kahr is very forgiving in a stress situation. You can get away without much practice or protocol.

With glock using the simple mantra, keep your finger off the trigger all is good, but not a lot of movement needed before you send lead down range.

Ironically I used to be a little hesitant of 1911's, c0cked and locked was a little concerning. I carried a Glock without thought.

A detective one day spelled it out for me and I had an ah ha moment.

Don't touch the trigger and the gun don't fire. With a 1911 you got some safeties in there for extra insurance.

Now I carry a 1911 without thought with a PM45 on my ankle. I'm more concerned about the Glock.
I have a 21 in my nightstand with a light. I bought it mostly cause the officers at work carry them and I wanted to have one to play with, good idea since I'm the armorer I reckon.
Now they issued me one so guess I should sell mine. Had it out last night wiping the dust off it but put it back, Guess it don't hurt to have a hi cap gun on hand.

Course I got a 14 round Para LDA so two I guess ain't bad either.

[TheLastDaze]

does anyone know if the cm9 and the pm9 are exactly the same size?? I know the barrels and etching is different, just curious about size... maybe I'm confusing it with a cw or another model??

not that well versed on kahr I must admit...

[GenericUsername]

PM9 and CM9 are effectively the same gun with a few chances. CW9 and P9 are effectively the same gun with a few changes. CM/PM are the 6-rounders while the CW/P are the 7-rounders.

[SGT405]

does anyone know if the cm9 and the pm9 are exactly the same size?? I know the barrels and etching is different, just curious about size... maybe I'm confusing it with a cw or another model??

not that well versed on kahr I must admit...
Same gun basically. CM is the "value series". Priced less than the PM. CM's do not have a dovetailed front sight, have standard rifling vs polygonal in the PM. PM's also have more machining on the slide and lettering. Basically same size though. I have a CM9 for pocket carry and I am very satisfied with it.

I also have a Glock19 and 42 so I am not a basher. Remember, ever since Glock came out in the early 1980s with the 17, they like any maker had problems. They refused to call theirs recalls. They are "upgrades". Ruger had problems with the LCP series, S&W did with the Bodyguard too. My point is anything made by man can be flawed. Human nature is such that you will hear far more people who complain than those who are satisfied.

Be safe

[muggsy]

thanks for the responses so far... I really anticipated putting on my flame suit before I checked this thread..... :p

If you want to be flamed go over to Glock Talk and make the same kind of entrance. I would have flamed you, but I thought that was what you were looking for and I wasn't about to oblige. Besides, I promised Bawanna that I'd try to be on my best behavior. I thought that you were being an a-hole from the start. (Insert smiley face here,) Welcome aboard.

[TheLastDaze]

Yeah I know Id be flamed there, people all want to argue.. havent really participated there in years now.. I know my first post seemed confrontational and rightfully so, I'm a little disturbed that a manufacturer can have such a sweet product yet simply ignore the flaws in design.. another peeve is why does the mag not sit flush?? Design flaw?? Not here to argue just want your answers and really dont want someone to justify kahr because they spent so much money on a gun they feel the need to back up their decision.. I don't understand a 'break in ' period, maybe the wolffe recoil is to stout? All I know is Ive never owned a quality gun that has required such madness.. maybe if jennings, davis, bryco and the others asked much more money for their one shot wonders they'd have a fan base??

[b4uqzme]

Yeah I know Id be flamed there, people all want to argue.. havent really participated there in years now.. I know my first post seemed confrontational and rightfully so, I'm a little disturbed that a manufacturer can have such a sweet product yet simply ignore the flaws in design.. another peeve is why does the mag not sit flush?? Design flaw?? ...

They really aren't design flaws because YOU say so. The mag is designed to make it easier to bump in place and to make it easier to extract if it ever hangs up. It's a design FEATURE.

[b4uqzme]

....Not here to argue just want your answers and really dont want someone to justify kahr because they spent so much money on a gun they feel the need to back up their decision.. I don't understand a 'break in ' period, maybe the wolffe recoil is to stout? All I know is Ive never owned a quality gun that has required such madness.. maybe if jennings, davis, bryco and the others asked much more money for their one shot wonders they'd have a fan base??

I believe you are...but it's a free country.

[TheLastDaze]

I'm not referring to the mag as a design flaw I'm referring to its 'break in' and simply the neglect to address hang up issues etc.. If I didn't hand load I'd be spending $17box for .380 and times that by 4 just to break in a gun that should run from the factory....

I simply asked a question as to the magazine, seems to me to be flawed as it looks out of place somehow....

if I bought a Ferrari I'd expect it to run like a dream, sure I'd take it easy at first and treat it with love but if it sputtered and died all the time during 'break in' period I'd be pretty pissed.. and if asked "how do you like the ferrari?" I most likely wouldn't tell them it ran like crap as I'd look like an idiot for spending so much on something that doesn't work but looks cool, instead I'd probably answer "its okay".... looks good from the shop anyway....:)

[berettabone]

I'm not referring to the mag as a design flaw I'm referring to its 'break in' and simply the neglect to address hang up issues etc.. If I didn't hand load I'd be spending $17box for .380 and times that by 4 just to break in a gun that should run from the factory....

I simply asked a question as to the magazine, seems to me to be flawed as it looks out of place somehow....

if I bought a Ferrari I'd expect it to run like a dream, sure I'd take it easy at first and treat it with love but if it sputtered and died all the time during 'break in' period I'd be pretty pissed.. and if asked "how do you like the ferrari?" I most likely wouldn't tell them it ran like crap as I'd look like an idiot for spending so much on something that doesn't work but looks cool, instead I'd probably answer "its okay".... looks good from the shop anyway....:)

Why do people constantly ***** about a break in? You're going to shoot it anyway, aren't you????????????????

[TheLastDaze]

They really aren't design flaws because YOU say so. The mag is designed to make it easier to bump in place and to make it easier to extract if it ever hangs up. It's a design FEATURE.

not because I said it absolutely not, but it bugs me... I'm sure they could have engineered a poly interchangeable floor plate, some with finger ext, etc... even their larger mags just seem out of place, the base is cut at a weird angle and looks installed backwards or something..

you call it a feature?? that's fine, not sure how having a mag that looks like its out of place and perhaps out of another gun is a feature, not sure how it aids in 'tapping' the mag or a drop drill, anyway different then a flush mag that looks like it fits would....

you can justify it all you want I'm just asking from a newbie, distant lurker standpoint, that has admired Kahr for many years from a distance, why maybe its because people always said they were solid built... I have no personal experience and that's why I'm here....

[marshal kane]

I'm on my first Kahr, I bought a new P9 with night sights. When I handled it in the gun store, I really liked the fit of it in my hand, the heft, and the smooth trigger. I would rate it a 99.5/100 fresh out of the box because during break-in, occasionally a round would fail to chamber. On examining the spent cases, I found score marks on the sides of the case which indicated rough interior feed lips in the magazines causing the slide to drag. A few minutes on each magazine with a burnishing tool fixed that. My second range session with it, all magazines fed perfectly and no reliability problems at all. At the 600 round mark, my confidence in my Kahr returned and now I would rate my P9 a 100/100. While rare that a new gun would malfunction, I have run across two new Smith & Wessons over the years that needed to be sent back to the factory so I realize that things like this may happen. I'm sure many of the Kahr owners here have had no problems at all during their break-in period.

If you are serious about purchasing a Kahr, I would suggest you get a new one that comes with the factory warranty. You may be lucky purchasing a used Kahr and then you may not. It's unlikely that your gun store clerk will tell you why the previous owner traded the gun in. Just my dos centavos, your choice.

[TheLastDaze]

If you are serious about purchasing a Kahr, I would suggest you get a new one that comes with the factory warranty. You may be lucky purchasing a used Kahr and then you may not. It's unlikely that your gun store clerk will tell you why the previous owner traded the gun in. Just my dos centavos, your choice.

I'm dead serious... as I said I'm going for the 9 now... I'm going to buy the newer LCP and match it against my old one and decide which one to keep, I may not like the new trigger/sights who knows?? but I also want a narrower gun then my glocks, as everyone knows sometimes its hard to carry a large caliber/capacity... enter the LCP (enter your choice 380 here) for summer shorts, flip flops etc...but there are times I'd like to carry a thin/light 9mm discretely... enter the kahr pm-cm9....

I'm going to give Kahr a try and have decided to buy a cm9 new, or a pm9 used... right now looks like you get a free mag with purchase of a new gun...

if I do have trouble with gun (highly doubtful) I will not PAY to have it sent to factory, period, under any circumstances..

[Flieger]

I believe you would be hard pressed to find a firearms company that has not had problems with new introductions. Kimber with their Solo and Ruger wither their LCP. While you have had great luck with your LCP, I was one of the unfortunate ones that bought one when they first came out.
Long story short, no matter what I did to treak it, I couldn't get anything including FMJ to feed pass 3 rounds. Then of course there was the LCP recall and after numerous weeks of waiting, it came back with a sticker on the side, but I would not bet my life on it.

Remington is currently going through hell with their new 51. It seems growning pains happen to the best and the worse, but even new models with Cars not just Kahrs.

What I object to is the way in which a company decides to handle the problem. A brand new under warranty firearm should not cost the owner a dime to return it for service.

No matter how good the product is, if the service is bad, my money goes to the company that respects my business.

[skiflydive]

I bought a new CM9 a couple of years ago. Other than 5 (operator induced?) failures in the first 150 rounds it's fired perfectly. It did break a follower but Kahr immediately sent me 2 no charge. I haven't had a problem since. I bought a used P380 from this forum a year ago and it's been flawless - even shooting commercial reloads. I'd buy either model again without another thought.

Re: break in. I just bought a new mountain bike. A good, expensive one...more than either of my Kahrs. For the money you'd expect it to be perfect "out of the box." Did I go flying down the hills on my local trails? Heck no...that would be putting my life in danger. I knew it would take a few rides to make sure it was perfect and indeed it took a little tweeking/cleaning/lubing and 60-70 miles of good riding. It's the same reason I didn't buy my first Kahr and immediately make it my carry gun. I needed to learn it, shoot it, take it apart and reassemble it etc. Whether a gun manufacturer recommends a break in or not it would be stupid (IMHO) to take a gun out of the box and stuff it in your holster. I think even Glock fanboyz run some rounds through them first just to make sure even though they know they could fire a gozillion rounds through it with no attention whatsoever :D

[b4uqzme]

if I bought a Ferrari I'd expect it to run like a dream, sure I'd take it easy at first and treat it with love but if it sputtered and died all the time during 'break in' period I'd be pretty pissed.. and if asked "how do you like the ferrari?" I most likely wouldn't tell them it ran like crap as I'd look like an idiot for spending so much on something that doesn't work but looks cool, instead I'd probably answer "its okay".... looks good from the shop anyway....:)

It appears you've never owned a Ferrari either. ;-). I'm not bashing. That was just a bad example. Ferrari's are expensive, highly precisioned machines...that break ALL the time.

[deadeye]

Their are only 2 kinds of machines produced. Those that break and those that are going to. My CM9 has been flawless for a long time. Is it going to break some day? Sure it will. (like gravity, Murphy's Law reigns supreme.) When it breaks I will fix it.

[TeaDub]

The "break-in" for my new Kahr consisted of cleaning it, lubing it, shooting it......rinse and repeat. No issues.

I went with the CW380. I shot a used one side by side with a gen2 LCP. The Kahr was more accurate and much more comfortable to shoot. That's just me, however.

[muggsy]

I'm not referring to the mag as a design flaw I'm referring to its 'break in' and simply the neglect to address hang up issues etc.. If I didn't hand load I'd be spending $17box for .380 and times that by 4 just to break in a gun that should run from the factory....

I simply asked a question as to the magazine, seems to me to be flawed as it looks out of place somehow....

if I bought a Ferrari I'd expect it to run like a dream, sure I'd take it easy at first and treat it with love but if it sputtered and died all the time during 'break in' period I'd be pretty pissed.. and if asked "how do you like the ferrari?" I most likely wouldn't tell them it ran like crap as I'd look like an idiot for spending so much on something that doesn't work but looks cool, instead I'd probably answer "its okay".... looks good from the shop anyway....:)

In reality every gun requires a break in period. Kahr is the only manufacturer that's honest enough to tell you that up front. A man would have to have a screw loose to carry an unproven gun. Even a Glock can malfunction straight from the factory. Most kahr pistols function flawlessly from the start. A few don't and some of those can be directly attributed to shooter error. When you get a new Kahr pistol it is very tight. After 200 rounds the parts marry quite well. Even you and your old lady enjoyed a honeymoon period. Like my old pal Jocko is fond of saying, "Just shoot that fokker like you stole it."

[O'Dell]

I'm with you Dub. I've never had a failure during the break in of any of my Kahrs either, although they are a bit hard to rack at first. I was given an LCP by my son so I won't get rid of it, however, I always past on it and carry my PM9 if I need a pocket pistol. For me the LCP is the most uncomfortable gun I've ever shot and has the worst trigger known to man. That's saying something because I once owned a KT P11.

[Bawanna]

How very manly of you to admit that. Go ahead and take the paper sack off your head now, the closet door is open and the whole world knows you owned a KTP11.

Hold your head up.

[TheLastDaze]

I believe you would be hard pressed to find a firearms company that has not had problems with new introductions. Kimber with their Solo and Ruger wither their LCP. While you have had great luck with your LCP, I was one of the unfortunate ones that bought one when they first came out.
the early lcp's had a safety recall, there probably has been a million sold and you rarely hear bad press,other than the trigger.. sorry you bought the recall LCP

No matter how good the product is, if the service is bad, my money goes to the company that respects my business.

couldn't agree more... CS is number one!! there is far to much competition with the interlubes nowadays to provide bad customer support


I bought a new CM9 a couple of years ago. Other than 5 (operator induced?) failures in the first 150 rounds it's fired perfectly. It did break a follower but Kahr immediately sent me 2 no charge. I haven't had a problem since. I bought a used P380 from this forum a year ago and it's been flawless - even shooting commercial reloads. I'd buy either model again without another thought.

Re: break in. I just bought a new mountain bike. A good, expensive one...more than either of my Kahrs. For the money you'd expect it to be perfect "out of the box." Did I go flying down the hills on my local trails? Heck no...that would be putting my life in danger. I knew it would take a few rides to make sure it was perfect and indeed it took a little tweeking/cleaning/lubing and 60-70 miles of good riding. It's the same reason I didn't buy my first Kahr and immediately make it my carry gun. I needed to learn it, shoot it, take it apart and reassemble it etc. Whether a gun manufacturer recommends a break in or not it would be stupid (IMHO) to take a gun out of the box and stuff it in your holster. I think even Glock fanboyz run some rounds through them first just to make sure even though they know they could fire a gozillion rounds through it with no attention whatsoever :D

agreed... Wife bought my LCP from her dad who carried it everyday and had never shot it !!!! :eek: I always make it a point to field strip, clean factory grease/lube off, and lube the way I like it.. I won't carry a gun without several hundred rounds and a lot of dry trigger time....


It appears you've never owned a Ferrari either. ;-). I'm not bashing. That was just a bad example. Ferrari's are expensive, highly precisioned machines...that break ALL the time.
LOL, but I thought it was a good example as Kahr's look really sexy for a straight forward gun... sooo


The "break-in" for my new Kahr consisted of cleaning it, lubing it, shooting it......rinse and repeat. No issues.

I went with the CW380. I shot a used one side by side with a gen2 LCP. The Kahr was more accurate and much more comfortable to shoot. That's just me, however.
yeah if you fire other options next to the LCP its trigger does suck even worse then if you just shot it by itself... I took it out today and put around 150rds through it, I sighted in my sr22 first as it needed a small tweak on windage, after that shot the LCP I like to shoot the LCP first so the trigger won't be as noticeable after shooting glocks all day... then I moved on to a destruction test with my gen4 19 :)


In reality every gun requires a break in period. Kahr is the only manufacturer that's honest enough to tell you that up front. A man would have to have a screw loose to carry an unproven gun. Even a Glock can malfunction straight from the factory. Most kahr pistols function flawlessly from the start. A few don't and some of those can be directly attributed to shooter error. When you get a new Kahr pistol it is very tight. After 200 rounds the parts marry quite well. Even you and your old lady enjoyed a honeymoon period. Like my old pal Jocko is fond of saying, "Just shoot that fokker like you stole it."
well said, good info right there, and yes Kahr is upfront about it, I just to want to cycle every round by hand..... I don't mind dumping ammo through it as I handload, but if I didn't it would hurt me just a little more in the pocket book




I'm with you Dub. I've never had a failure during the break in of any of my Kahrs either, although they are a bit hard to rack at first. I was given an LCP by my son so I won't get rid of it, however, I always past on it and carry my PM9 if I need a pocket pistol. For me the LCP is the most uncomfortable gun I've ever shot and has the worst trigger known to man. That's saying something because I once owned a KT P11.
Good to know, hopefully I won't with mine when I get it.. I really do like my little mouse gun it only weighs 8.8oz with an empty mag, not sure how that works out as ruger says 9.4oz but my scale is calibrated and I have two ... to me its about ultralite, I'm used to the trigger and absolutely love the gun and have never had a problem with it whatsoever.. after time at the range today and some reflection I've decided I won't get the new LCP for comparison.. But I do plan on buying a kahr and I will be comparing it to my wifes lc9s (when I can actually pick one up reasonable)...

[TheLastDaze]

Which one of you reprobates out bid me on the pm9 ?? Oh well $30 shipping was steep anyway. Maybe Ill buy a new cm onslicks for 325 shipped, anyone know a better deal??

[Bawanna]

Reprobate? Is Jocko back? Or is he talking about Muggsy?


I DIDN'T DO IT!!!

[yqtszhj]

Now they issued me one so guess I should sell mine. Had it out last night wiping the dust off it but put it back, Guess it don't hurt to have a hi cap gun on hand.
.

Dang, how did you manage that? Is it a 21? Gen 3 or 4? The violets promoted you didnt they.

[Rob K]

My CM9 goes bang, accurately, every time I pull that smooth trigger.

[340pd]

Stupid question. Yes there are a lot of "internet problems" with Kahr handguns. The same can be found with a lot of other manufacturers, i.e. Kimber.

If your LCP functions with a variety of ammo, why change from what works for you? Personally, I think it does make some sense to work within one platform for carry guns. I believe that is what makes the 1911 or Glock platform so desirable as personal defense guns.

[TheLastDaze]

Stupid question. Yes there are a lot of "internet problems" with Kahr handguns. The same can be found with a lot of other manufacturers, i.e. Kimber.

If your LCP functions with a variety of ammo, why change from what works for you? Personally, I think it does make some sense to work within one platform for carry guns. I believe that is what makes the 1911 or Glock platform so desirable as personal defense guns.

agreed the internet is full of it.... people use google to obtain information and without further research consider it fact, I mean after all they googled it, it must be so.. !!! I'll keep elsie for the pocket from a practical standpoint, but unfortunately glock doesn't make a single stack 9 and I want something thinner then my glocks for iwb, while my 26,27 or even my 19 isn't a bear to carry iwb it sometimes just won't fit the needs and I'm more comfortable with a 9 as SD though don't feel a 380 isn't as capable either, ESPECIALLY with the new Lehigh X treme bullets, there's nothing to joke about with them bad boys.. I cycled only 3 so far through elsie with no prob...

even though I can open carry here I feel that to be a bit awkward..

EDIT: oh and while I'm at it and full of coffee let me just add that statistically none of us here on this forum will probably ever have to use a gun in SD, period....
(I probably got the statistics off google sometime ago :) )

[Bawanna]

Dang, how did you manage that? Is it a 21? Gen 3 or 4? The violets promoted you didnt they.

No promotion for me, what are you thinking. They just assigned one of the old 21's, yes they are all Gen 3. I have all the spares locked up anyhow. It's dual purpose really and makes sense, surprised they went for it. Gives me something to tear apart and stay familiar, I'm working on the hanging upside down blindfolded method and the hard part is getting hung upside down.
I also have it and 3 loaded mags at my desk(not sure they are aware of the mags) in case I'm working on an officers gun and they get a call, they can just grab mine and go.
Still won't let me bring my own personal weapon in and lock it up like I did for 16 years. Brilliant. They also don't know about the ankle rig, shhhhh!

[TheLastDaze]

Reprobate? Is Jocko back? Or is he talking about Muggsy?


I DIDN'T DO IT!!!

LOL, you're guilty as charge sir....


They also don't know about the ankle rig, shhhhh!
DID YOU HEAR THAT !!!! ANKLE RIG !!!

that should help you out a bit.... love the blindfold action, I'll have to give that a try :)

[yqtszhj]

... They also don't know about the ankle rig, shhhhh!

Here's a scary thought, from what you described if the violets start "feeling up" your leg you got bigger problems and it ain't Mrs. B. either.

[Bawanna]

There's only one violet in the whole herd that wouldn't bother me feeling up my leg and she's my ally and pal.

The rest I would ask them to hand me the gun and I'd shoot myself in the face.

Think thick, heavy, unpleasant sows with not fully functioning brains.

Everyone here except the brass knows about and is perfectly fine with the ankle rig. The officers even submitted a memo indicating they were completely comfortable in my campaign to wear my 1911 on my hip like a man in the office. Brass just is liability overwrought ya know.

[downtownv]

Muggsy buys all Defective Kahr pistols!
I pay $10 more than what muggy offers, however.
Jocko, Has left the building on his Iron Steed and likely not coming back anytime soon.....

[340pd]

agreed the internet is full of it.... people use google to obtain information and without further research consider it fact, I mean after all they googled it, it must be so.. !!! I'll keep elsie for the pocket from a practical standpoint, but unfortunately glock doesn't make a single stack 9 and I want something thinner then my glocks for iwb, while my 26,27 or even my 19 isn't a bear to carry iwb it sometimes just won't fit the needs and I'm more comfortable with a 9 as SD though don't feel a 380 isn't as capable either, ESPECIALLY with the new Lehigh X treme bullets, there's nothing to joke about with them bad boys.. I cycled only 3 so far through elsie with no prob...

even though I can open carry here I feel that to be a bit awkward..

EDIT: oh and while I'm at it and full of coffee let me just add that statistically none of us here on this forum will probably ever have to use a gun in SD, period....
(I probably got the statistics off google sometime ago :) )

Have you considered a S&W Shield. A bit bigger than a Kahr CM/PM9 series but close, somewhat Glock like with respect to trigger, and totally dependable by all counts. I would say my Shield gets the most carry time of all my guns.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/gnystrom_photos/acc39508-1bdc-4662-9ff6-e8a7c04064e8_zps051fb15f.jpg

[TheLastDaze]

Yeah I don't know what it is but I've never warmed up to s&w auto's, love the revolvers though have two old pinned and recessed. Maybe I need to give it another look, I'll check one out next time at the gun store..

[gb6491]

Nice photo 340pd. It reminded me that I've a Shield stashed in the safe. It's been awhile since I've had it out...might have to take it plinking soon.
FWIW, I find the Shield is closer in size to the P/CW9 than the PM/CM9.
Regards,
Greg

[downtownv]

Think thick, heavy, unpleasant sows with not fully functioning brains.

Like this?

Go ahead pull her finger.....

[Bawanna]

Bigger!

[b4uqzme]

Yu-u-uck!

[TheLastDaze]

Like this?

Go ahead pull her finger.....
why'd you do that to me?? I may go blind after I quit throwing up in my mouth....

[downtownv]

Watch out, she's Gonna Blow!

[Tomorray]

P380 owner here; I've had no issues whatsoever with several brands of ammo. Granted, I haven't put very many rounds down range yet, mostly because finding ammo for it is challenging, to say the least, but so far, so good.

[TheLastDaze]

Okay after browsing the forum here I see lots of people with questions/problems about their Kahrs failing and what do I do to get them running?? etc, etc........

THIS is the reason for my first post being so inflammatory, there is ZERO reason a QUALITY firearm should need some lovin, it should run out of the box, no questions...

I'm reading of people who actually carry their gun even though its "finicky", and are really trying to get it to work out for them, and it should after what they spent...

BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: I've wanted a Kahr PM9 or similar since they came out, the price tag kept me from buying one.... I would admire Kahr from afar but never cared to read about them, watch videos about them etc, no HUGE interest as I have others that fill the bill... BUT, what got me fired up about Kahr is the P380 as I wanted another 380 to go with elsiepea, something for the pocket not like the old walther I used to have many years ago but a real mouse gun... I started my search, and WOW there is more negative on Kahr then on Taurus... I still wanted one though so I joined here to see what others have to say, I really want to like Kahr as they have two products Glock simply doesn't know how to make or something, that's the PM9 and P380 other then those two guns I haven't seen anything else that sparks my interest, who knows maybe down the road we'll see...

BUT if my Kahr PM9 that I have on its way doesn't function and I have a temperamental gun that will only run such and such ammo and it won't eat my handloads like everything else I own, I will try and tweak it and if I can't get it to run right there's no reason to play patty cake with the factory I will simply ditch the gun and not look back....

I'm hopeful here guys as the gun I bought came with 7 mags, that tells me someone liked to shoot:)

[Hawkeye911]

I love the guns I have selected and worked into my "stable" over the past 40(!) years. If I didn't love them, they are long gone. I bought a CM9 when concealed carry finally came to our state, and was so, SO impressed by it that I purchased a CW380 within a couple weeks when I saw a great sale on it. I am so, SO impressed by it, as well, that I have to say these have become two of my very favorite guns... and I'm grateful own some really nice ones!

The Kahrs have impressed me with design, quality, functionality, and "carry-ability." I have one of the two on me every time I leave the confines of my home. Out of 500 or so rounds shot for practice (or fun), I have exactly two failures to eject- one on the second magazine I ever shot from the CM9, the other from the first magazine from the CW380! I consider these two weapons to be dependable, trustworthy, and EXCELLENT. I intend own them until my heirs take possession.

Guns are "different strokes for different folks," but in many ways, and for specific purposes, I like these better than my Spingfields, Rugers, Dan Wesson, Taurus, and S&Ws... all excellent guns in their own right.

I should go back to verify, but I think you posted initially about liking the Ruger LCP. I have 5 Ruger firearms that I really like, but would have NO interest in the LCP after handling it. It's not for me. If you gave me yours, I would ask if I could sell it and put the money toward a Kahr!

I only really know one thing about guns... YMMV. We all have different likes, physical traits, needs, and idiosyncrasies, and only YOU can decide what's best for YOU. Since you asked pages ago, though, Kahrs do NOT suck, I love mine, and they will be my primary self defense weapons for a long time to come.

Best wish in your search!

[WLEEP]

Daze, welcome!

I have three Kahrs (P9C, CM9 and CW 380 and they've all been flawless with one exception.

That said, it seems a high majority of gun problems are with ammo and magazines. I bought three boxes of PMC at a gun show last winter and it was a disaster for my CW 380, FTF, FTE, FTRB, the whole nine yards. Mind you, I'd had no trouble for the first two hundred rounds before this. Bailed on the PMC after the first four mags and returned to Winchester White box, 380s from LGS which has the county sheriffs ammo contract and Precision One, my carry ammo and have not had a problem since. I think the vendor at the gun show stuffed a bunch of reloads in used boxes because after the problem and closer exam, the boxes looked a little beat up.

I realize everyone's experience is different but I carry my CM9 and CW 380 with complete confidence.

Suggest you stay check out ARMSLIST and see if you can find something in your area for sale where you could meet seller at local gun range and try before you buy. I've done this with about five guns and it has worked out great.

Anyway, good luck to you sir.
bp

[O'Dell]

.
THIS is the reason for my first post being so inflammatory, there is ZERO reason a QUALITY firearm should need some lovin, it should run out of the box, no questions...
period.


.I started my search, and WOW there is more negative on Kahr then on Taurus... .

.

I would never trust any new pistol right out of the box, I don't care who built it. Over 45 years of shooting, I have had too many guns from supposively quality companies fail from lack of preparation. I ALWAYS clean, lube, and inspect a new pistol before firing, period.

That statement is hard to swallow. I have had seven Kahrs and all worked from the first shot and none ever went back to the factory. I have owned three Tauruses. One was fine after I prep'ed it, but the other two never worked even after the factory tried to fix them.

To be honest, I'm getting rather tired of you!

[TheLastDaze]

P380 owner here; I've had no issues whatsoever with several brands of ammo. Granted, I haven't put very many rounds down range yet, mostly because finding ammo for it is challenging, to say the least, but so far, so good.
yeah that's the bad thing about 380 nowadays, not only has it gone up in price dramatically but its slim availability


I love the guns I have selected and worked into my "stable" over the past 40(!) years. If I didn't love them, they are long gone. I bought a CM9 when concealed carry finally came to our state, and was so, SO impressed by it that I purchased a CW380 within a couple weeks when I saw a great sale on it. I am so, SO impressed by it, as well, that I have to say these have become two of my very favorite guns... and I'm grateful own some really nice ones!

The Kahrs have impressed me with design, quality, functionality, and "carry-ability." I have one of the two on me every time I leave the confines of my home. Out of 500 or so rounds shot for practice (or fun), I have exactly two failures to eject- one on the second magazine I ever shot from the CM9, the other from the first magazine from the CW380! I consider these two weapons to be dependable, trustworthy, and EXCELLENT. I intend own them until my heirs take possession.

Thanks you touched on a lot of valid points, guns tend to come and go don't they? I have some that won't go anywhere, one I learned to shoot on when I was 7 the others have just made it into the stable for good as you describe..


Daze, welcome!

I have three Kahrs (P9C, CM9 and CW 380 and they've all been flawless with one exception.

That said, it seems a high majority of gun problems are with ammo and magazines. I bought three boxes of PMC at a gun show last winter and it was a disaster for my CW 380, FTF, FTE, FTRB, the whole nine yards. Mind you, I'd had no trouble for the first two hundred rounds before this. Bailed on the PMC after the first four mags and returned to Winchester White box, 380s from LGS which has the county sheriffs ammo contract and Precision One, my carry ammo and have not had a problem since. I think the vendor at the gun show stuffed a bunch of reloads in used boxes because after the problem and closer exam, the boxes looked a little beat up.
Anyway, good luck to you sir.
bp
appreciate it.. and from what I've read pmc isn't kind for some reason or another, maybe slightly larger brass dunno.. Never thought about that one at gun shows, I'd hate to think someone would do that but can see the possibility and it would be a money maker for sure...


I would never trust any new pistol right out of the box, I don't care who built it. Over 45 years of shooting, I have had too many guns from supposively quality companies fail from lack of preparation. I ALWAYS clean, lube, and inspect a new pistol before firing, period.
To be honest, I'm getting rather tired of you!

I never have put any trust in any pistol unless I dump a gob of ammo in it, and have it out several times, and much dry time with it as well.. I do the same thing, field strip wipe dry or clean as necessary and add my own lube, mobil 1 vtwin...

thanks for the warm welcome I think I've made some valid points, and while I've admittedly declared in other threads as well as this one I could have made a better entrance, and you're that easy to make upset and get sick and tired of someone I pity you...

[Bawanna]

One of the things, maybe even the most important thing that keeps our little oasis happy, happy, happy around here is not getting personal, except to Jocko and Muggsy of course.

Lets try to keep that in mind. Hearing negatives gets old, as we've stated a few million times, people don't get on forums to sing the praises and if one does your accused of being a kool aid drinking ride for the brand kind of guy.
Many of us here are just that. Most of us here also are not single brand advocates though either.

I have no doubt your gonna get along fine with that PM9 Lastdaze and you'll be coming over to the dark side too.

[TheLastDaze]

haahaa.. well spoken, who knows I may come over to the darkside but will always ride the fence as Glocks koolaid keeps me cool during the day :)

funny thing is I've been looking at the cw380 (again) just in case.... I even emailed the guy who I spoke of that sold me the Lehigh and Fiocchi 380, asked him if he wants to dump the gun I may give it a chance if the price is right, also offered to try and fix it for him for free just so I can compare it with my elsie... we'll see what happens, but right now I'm tapped out bigtime as I've bought around 4 firearms in the last couple months, but I may fund something selling other stuff so I can keep the wife happy, happy, happy.... :p

[yqtszhj]

THIS is the reason for my first post being so inflammatory, there is ZERO reason a QUALITY firearm should need some lovin, it should run out of the box, no questions...
:)

Don't buy a $1000 Kimber then.

Let us know how your pm9 on the way runs. I think I would be safe to say that the 9mm kahrs are the flagship product so you should be fine.

[b4uqzme]

don't buy a $1000 kimber then.
.

^^^^ +1000. ;-)

[TheLastDaze]

anxiously waiting, should be end of next week I hope... like I said I definitely keep you guys in the loop and do a review of sorts on it... I have a lot of handloads itching to get at it....

[O'Dell]

.

thanks for the warm welcome I think I've made some valid points, and while I've admittedly declared in other threads as well as this one I could have made a better entrance, and you're that easy to make upset and get sick and tired of someone I pity you...

You claim that you came here looking for help and/or advice. Over 70 posts, members with literally hundreds of years of collective Kahr knowledge have tried to provide just that and share their experiences. however, I see no evidence that you listened to any of it. Your last posts seem little different than your first. I hope I'm not around when you decide to make a really major purchase instead of a $400 pistol.

Save your pity for someone who cares!



Sorry, Bawanna. I don't have your diplomacy.

[b4uqzme]

THIS is the reason for my first post being so inflammatory, there is ZERO reason a QUALITY firearm should need some lovin, it should run out of the box, no questions...

I'm reading of people who actually carry their gun even though its "finicky", and are really trying to get it to work out for them, and it should after what they spent...



I'll confess that I always find the above comments irksome. Nothing against you TLD, I've heard them before. A Ferrari demands plenty of lovin' compared to, say, a Toyota. The Toyota is uber reliable. So what makes the Ferrari cost over ten times more? I suspect there is something more to quality than just reliability. I kinda feel the same about Glocks. They are reliable. I'll give you that. But they in no way are the benchmark for quality.

You've taken the leap of faith and ordered your Kahr. I understand you had to overcome a lot of negative press. We all did. But we've been there and done that and we know that the leap is worthwhile. And sometimes you have to apply a little "lovin". But that's worthwhile too if you have the patience. I am looking forward to the chance to say "I told you so".

Good luck.

[b4uqzme]

... I have a lot of handloads itching to get at it....

FWIW. I urge you to heed the Kahr manual and my friendly advice: save your handloads for after the break-in. Nothing against them. It's just easier to troubleshoot (if necessary) when you can eliminate that variable. Use the best quality FMJ ammo you can find.

[TheLastDaze]

@b4uqzme

I hear ya... and also its a used gun... I'm a tinkerer and don't mind messing with something to a point, as long as its quirks get worked out after I do all I can... I bought a Lee Pro 1000 for crying out loud, been a great press, saved a ton over a dillon and I simply modded it here and there and it purrs...yeah ferrari was a bad exp.. you'll let me live it down someday I'm sure..

[garyb]

I'm not stuck on Kahr by any means. At the time I purchased my PM40 for conceal carry, I did so for specific reasons and it has remained flawless. I am very pleased with the quality and performance. Today, I am not sure I would make the same decision, due to changes in the competitive market. But I am keeping my Kahr and am very happy with it. I also own several S&W M&P's for other reasons and they are also flawless.

You are obviously looking at Kahr for your own reasons. Your inquiry indicates that you are being cautious due to the QC issues you hear and read. Most if not every gun manufacturer has them and we often ask how they miss such an obvious problem during QC. It seems to me that Kahr is no different. The Kahr owners who commented to you have given you their best advice. That's what we do here. Take that advice, or not. If you buy a used gun and you buy a problem, that was "your" choice and YOU took that risk. We don't need to hear you crying about your choices if your decision was a bad one. On the other hand, if you buy a new gun, Kahr will make it right. Good luck with your decisions, but please don't lay them on Kahr in the end. The folks here have given their advice. Lots of very happy Kahr owners out there and I sincerely hope you become one of them.

[b4uqzme]

. you'll let me live it down someday I'm sure..

Nah! :-).

[yqtszhj]

Save your pity for someone who cares!



Sorry, Bawanna. I don't have your diplomacy.

So did you hold this specifically for your 3000th post or did it just work out that way? (Big smiley goes here)

[Bawanna]

Dang we should have a party of something. 3000 post.

[O'Dell]

So did you hold this specifically for your 3000th post or did it just work out that way? (Big smiley goes here)

Actually I didn't even notice. I suppose I should have been more civil for my 3000th. Naaaaaaa

[O'Dell]

Dang we should have a party of something. 3000 post.

If we just increase that by a factor of 7, I'd almost be tied with you. How do you do that?!!!!

[TheLastDaze]

Actually I didn't even notice. I suppose I should have been more civil for my 3000th. Naaaaaaa

lol, you're an American I'd have it no other way....

maybe if I spew enough nonsense I can ramp my post count to 100 !!! then maybe I could wear a party hat ??

[JEH]

Purchased a new CW45 and fired 300 rounds with many failures to eject. Returned it. They replaced the barrel and mag. catch and polished the slide stop, ejector and extractor, test fired and said OK. Still failed to eject 100%. Sent it back a second time. They replaced the frame, which requires a new serial number, return to an FFL dealer, and a transfer fee and break-in at my expense. I guess that faulty frame was missed thru manufacturing, inspection, and the first return. Was I firing an unsafe firearm? The failure to eject still seems to be ignored. I said, I don't think so. I've already wasted 300 rounds of ammo, and I don't intend to start over with a parted-out firearm, a transfer fee, and another 300 rounds. They offered new gun with a transfer fee and break-in at my expense. It cost me $150 for wasted ammo or will cost another $200 to start over with the repaired (HAHA) or $200 for new. They expect me to bear the costs including a transfer fee and break-in ammo to recover from "all" of their firearm malfunctions, which basically doubles the purchase price with no assurance that what I get will be any better. I'm cutting my losses. I said I preferred a refund. They agreed. I have yet to receive the check. Before you purchase you should read the volumes of bad reviews, then buy something else that you can depend on for a carry gun.

[JEH]

refer to post number 65...

I refer you to your own statement: "...there is ZERO reason a QUALITY firearm should need some lovin, it should run out of the box, no questions..."

Then you finish with: "...no reason to play patty cake with the factory I will simply ditch the gun and not look back...."

You just contradicted yourself!! ...and it is not cheap because you have to spend $150 on ammo to break them in, IF you are successful!!

What do you mean by "ditch the gun?" ....sell it to somebody else to deal with it or get the unwary victim killed when it fails? ...or cut it in half and eat all the cost and work you've done (that Kahr didn't do)?

My CW45 is junk. I returned it twice. It is still junk, and their repair service is a faulty as my CW45. Read the bad reviews and take them to heart. Kahr Arms CW45 has cost me a lot of money, and I can't use it. I, personally, can't carry a firearm that is not 100% reliable, and I can't sell it to somebody else without telling them the story. Good luck if you think you will have better results.

[Bobshouse]

Most of us have had better results. Sorry to hear of your problems, you got your money back, maybe you could buy something else and hope you have less problems as a result of your decision. Kahrs are fantastic carry guns when you get a good one, but just like anything else, your rolling the dice.

[sierrajb]

Ditto what Bwanna said. I have a PM9 that had some minor issues until I learned how to keep it clean and give it some time to bond with me. I lost count of the number of rounds I've sent through "Kahrla" but I can say it's dependable enough for me to trust for the protection of my life, wife and 2 kiddos. Buy new if you can afford it.

[gb6491]

JEH,
This thread was hashed out over a year and a half ago and folks have moved on. You want a soapbox, start a new thread. This one is closed.