Firing arms instructor killed by 9 year old

[340pd]

One dead, one life ruined.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/27/firing-range-instructor-hands-9-year-old-an-uzi-now-hes-dead/?tid=hp_mm

[TheTman]

I don't think I'd hand too many 9 year olds a full auto Uzi. Maybe some .22 or possibly a .32 converted to full auto, but not a 9mm.

[marcinstl]

"A 9-year-old girl at a shooting range outside Las Vegas accidentally killed (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/instructor-accidentally-shot-girl-9-dies) an instructor on Monday morning when she lost control of the Uzi he was showing her how to use."
well, another crap, totally wrong news story. this was no accident, there are no gun accidents. the gun fired because something(finger?) moved the trigger. that is properly called, a "negligent discharge". there are no accidents, only negligence. range shootings, cleaning shootings, gun store handling shootings-- all negligent shootings.

[ced_56]

While I am all for showing your kids guns and teaching them respect for them and how to properly use them why does a 9yr old need to fire a full auto anything. That is asking for trouble. Sad but totally preventable

[Longitude Zero]

This is criminally stupid by everybody except the little girl. I have seen full grown adult males loose control of a select fire UZI. Allowing a 9 year old child to fire one is so far beyond the curtain of intelligence. I pray for the girl only. As for the adults involved including the instructor I have ZERO sympathy as educated adults would not have made or allowed this monumental blunder.

[jocko]

boy u hit that nail right on the head. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES. I can't believe the video. This guy had to have zero brains, a real shame he ha dto die to prove the supidity of his actions though. I feel sorry for the little gal for maybe right now she is clueless as to what it will effect her life down the road. She did nuttin wrong IMO and WTF where was her parentsin alalthis ****. A real shame and a black mark to the shooting industry to. the liberals will go with this like thereis no tomorrow, I guessif any good can be siad of this, the little girldid not shoot herself...

[TheLastDaze]

no matter how you look at it accidents happen, negligent or otherwise doesn't matter how you dot your i.... where's the compassion here?? pointing fingers like any of us are any better, sometimes you just don't think of the consequences to your decision at the spur of the moment...

fact is someone lost a dad,a husband, brother etc... we need to get off the high horse and acknowledge this as a tragedy..... plain and simple we lost a brother in arms who thought was doing a good thing by letting a little girl shoot, he made a deadly mistake that cost him his life.... he won't get a "why did I do that" like alot of us have had in the past over something stupid we've done, and if you haven't had one of those moments you're lying to yourself...

at the end of the video as soon as she starts shooting it it veers to left, right at his heart....

I for one will be praying for everyone on both side of the family's.....

[getsome]

Holy smokes how stupid can you get!!!....While you're at it why not let your 9 year old wrestle a 10 foot alligator and play with some cobras for God's sake....At the very least that Uzi should have been chained down to the bench for even an adult to shoot one...I feel horrible for the little girl I pray she understands it wasn't her fault at all and as for the parents I bet they were playing with their cell phones when it happened........Just Damn is all I can think of to say....

[downtownv]

Even smart people do stupid things.....

[ltxi]

I feel bad for the kid. As to the "instructor"....natural selection.

[knkali]

WOW I know we are all praying for that little girl and the family of the retarded instructor.

[hardknocks1]

Wow
While I agree this was not smart and should never have happened I'm surprised of the responses where people don't feel bad someone died.
Just wow!

[jocko]

I feel bad for the guy, i really do, can't take back what happened, Just gotta hope that sopme damn good cmes from this, I'm not sure what though. IMO common sense should have prevailed here, not making a quick buck... Its sad, this was a young man to, not some ol foggy like Muggsy who is expendable. Just sayin

[muggsy]

I feel bad for the guy, i really do, can't take back what happened, Just gotta hope that sopme damn good cmes from this, I'm not sure what though. IMO common sense should have prevailed here, not making a quick buck... Its sad, this was a young man to, not some ol foggy like Muggsy who is expendable. Just sayin

One thing is for sure. He'll never do that again. I may be expendable, but I'm not entirely worthless like one old sheep herder whose name will go unmentioned, Jocko. (Oops, I mentioned his name.)

[Harrylee]

My lord why was this little girl shooting a full auto and from what I heard she was a New Jersey girl not saying that’s a bad thing but you can’t handle full auto in jersey so how can you teach it or did she ever handle a gun before? I believe with such a young person you need to build up and not go for full auto. Get a bolt action one shot at a time this how a skill is learned , you don’t hand a 357 snub nose to someone that never shot before and say go ahead . It’s a shame and now it’s the presses to turn this into a gun issue we as gun owners need a dumb mistake. Now the press will have there way with this

http://abcnews.go.com/US/girl-accidentally-kills-instructor-firing-uzi/story?id=25139216

[gunmut]

I think the reason many of us come down hard on this guy is he had responsibility for the girl's safety, it could have been the girl that took one to the head; even with this outcome the girl is going to come out of it with some damage.

[TheLastDaze]

I for one cant imagine ANYONE on a PUBLIC range allowing an inexperienced 9yo shoot a full auto in any caliber, but its apparent he wasnt thinking this through.. not sure his experience or the range rules but none of it changes anything..it js what it is

[ltxi]

I think the reason many of us come down hard on this guy is he had responsibility for the girl's safety, it could have been the girl that took one to the head; even with this outcome the girl is going to come out of it with some damage.

Pretty much what I was thinkin'. With less than half a thought the potential, and now actual, outcome could have been easily foreseen. No sympathy here at all for the guy. I have no patience at all with adults who endanger innocent children, whether intentionally or through simple plain stupid. Just glad the little girl didn't get killed, hope she realizes it wasn't her fault, and is resilient enough to come out of this without long term damage.

[ltxi]

Wow
While I agree this was not smart and should never have happened I'm surprised of the responses where people don't feel bad someone died.
Just wow!

Dead people happen and natural selection deaths are in all our best interests. He's now no longer available to damage any more kids. Nothing to feel sorry about.

[muggsy]

Itxi, what were the parents of the girl thinking, or were they?

[ltxi]

Assuming they were there, as per the reported range rules, methinks they are complete morons if they knew what was coming/about the full auto. Irrespective, wth...an Uzi?

[TheLastDaze]

Complacency is dangerous, just when you think you know everything you find out just how little you know..

Many people are killed annually by ND from being to complacent, guns are no more dangerous than the people that use them, I think what we can learn from this is never be to complacent around firearms...

In fact just a little over a month ago I stopped shooting at in door ranges, last time I was there I stepped back and observed others around me, scary scene... People are to sure of themselves, even those that have been around firearms their whole life...

Shamefully I've had two ND's my whole life, can I blame the gun?? not even close, even though both were with the same gun 7yrs apart.. Me and the gun soon parted as it was obvious we didn't get along.... still my fault however no matter how I tried to blame the gun..

[knkali]

Itxi, what were the parents of the girl thinking, or were they?

not sure Muggs if this is a rhetorical question but I bet the parents were not gun people otherwise this probably would never have happened. Instead they put their trust in the "instructor" and he failed big time.
Am I sorry this happened? Heck yes, I am human(sic). BUT I am also mad as hell for reasons I cannot articulate at this juncture.

[knkali]

Complacency is dangerous, just when you think you know everything you find out just how little you know..

Many people are killed annually by ND from being to complacent, guns are no more dangerous than the people that use them, I think what we can learn from this is never be to complacent around firearms...

In fact just a little over a month ago I stopped shooting at in door ranges, last time I was there I stepped back and observed others around me, scary scene... People are to sure of themselves, even those that have been around firearms their whole life...

Shamefully I've had two ND's my whole life, can I blame the gun?? not even close, even though both were with the same gun 7yrs apart.. Me and the gun soon parted as it was obvious we didn't get along.... still my fault however no matter how I tried to blame the gun..

I have to admit I am with you regarding indoor ranges. When I do go I am in and out .

[addictedhealer]

Full auto shouldn't be handled lightly. Ridiculous, now he is dead and the girl is traumatized for life. Such a ridiculous idea, what's next? What is next let a 9 year old operate a nascar?

[TheLastDaze]

Full auto shouldn't be handled lightly. Ridiculous, now he is dead and the girl is traumatized for life. Such a ridiculous idea, what's next? What is next let a 9 year old operate a nascar?
Exactly... The rules where I shoot most USSA you can teach your own kid how to shoot but you must be parent or guardian with children 6 and up you have to be there at their side regardless if you have an instructor... My son has shot since he was 6, obviously started with a BB gun, learned fundamentals, shot .22 and at 8 had shot my Glock 26, even now at 11 with his minimal off and on experience I would never let him shoot an uzi of any caliber without me being there and you bet I'd have my hands on the weapon for control....

sad, sad situation here and I just can't wrap my mind around it.. Oh and my kids all have driven on my lap at the age of 6 as well but I'd never give them the keys to the truck...

[TheLastDaze]

OOPS... double tap

[marcinstl]

I shoot and would like the general population to see shooting as a socially acceptable sport. I'd like to see more sports tv coverage of ISSF events. even Biathlon is good PR for shooting. what the sport doesn't need is tv coverage of hillbilly duck guys or crazy wayne shooting his face off.
a gun "accident" is when a gun in a drawer goes off all by itself, (actually that's a design or maintenance error, or an "act of god" if your into voodoo, whatever).
gun "negligence" would cover the other 99.9% of finger on the trigger incidents. the little girl was holding and shooting the Uzi in full auto, it was her finger that pulled the trigger and she killed the guy. 9 yr. old girls are not legally responsible to be "negligent", so it goes to the instructor, the range and the parents. if you want to rewrite that as criminally stupid(and dead) instructor, criminally stupid range and way criminally stupid parents, be my guest.

[Ohsheepdog]

What a tragedy for all involved, & I'm amazed at the lack of empathy on this forum for the instructor's death. A momentary lack of wisdom on his part doesn't reduce the fact a fellow human, and firearm instructor, lost his life & a young lady is traumatized for life.
I've instructed numerous people, some minors, to shoot a full auto weapon, including an Uzi. However, I always hold the gun with them, especially the front grip, to control the muzzle. I also keep their finger off the trigger until I'M comfortable they're ready...
The joy of firing full auto weapons is an experience few outside the military will have, so make it as safe as possible!

[knkali]

What a tragedy for all involved, & I'm amazed at the lack of empathy on this forum for the instructor's death. A momentary lack of wisdom on his part doesn't reduce the fact a fellow human, and firearm instructor, lost his life & a young lady is traumatized for life.
I've instructed numerous people, some minors, to shoot a full auto weapon, including an Uzi. However, I always hold the gun with them, especially the front grip, to control the muzzle. I also keep their finger off the trigger until I'M comfortable they're ready...
The joy of firing full auto weapons is an experience few outside the military will have, so make it as safe as possible!

Not every joy in life has to be shared with everyone at any time. Sometimes waiting is needed. There are reasons that kids have to be a certain height before they can go on certain carnival rides. So be it with firearms. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. Perhaps you should reconsider what your minimum age limit is that you are willing to instruct children with fully auto firearms. Take this tragedy and make something positive from it. The lack of empathy that you feel here is not what it appears to be. Instead, I propose that what you are feeling here from the forum members is outrage for what just happened. After the initial anger subsides, the empathy will automatically trickle in. I know that is what is happening to me regarding this tragedy. I saw the incident on video. It was horrible. Words cannot describe how sickening it was to watch. I learned that things happen very fast. I am not sure that a well placed hand on shoulder or muzzle is adequate given the fractions of a second needed to react to prevent such a terrible thing to happen again. Furthermore, there is a bit of self interest going on here that we need to address. We have all been around long enough to know that a tragedy should never go to waste in order to take away personal liberties. We will soon have pundits and legislation being ready to be passed with minimum age limits that children can shoot or risk child protection services coming to take your kid away. Also, this is another feather in the anti-gunnners cap as to the evil of these weapons in civilian's hands. No one wanted to say this but I feel we can respectfully do so now. Finally, I see the State pressing charges on the parents. I hope this is not the case. They have paid enough for what has happened.

[Ohsheepdog]

Knkali, well put post, & I agree with what you said. A select few that shoot with me are given the chance, & only when my fellow instructor & I personally know the individual, have shot with them before and/or have proven themselves safe with other weapons & have the ability to listen & do exactly as they are instructed. Keep in mind as well, I didn't say I let 9 year olds shoot them, I said some minors.

[knkali]

Knkali, well put post, & I agree with what you said. A select few that shoot with me are given the chance, & only when my fellow instructor & I personally know the individual, have shot with them before and/or have proven themselves safe with other weapons & have the ability to listen & do exactly as they are instructed. Keep in mind as well, I didn't say I let 9 year olds shoot them, I said some minors.

understood...

[Longitude Zero]

Not every joy in life has to be shared with everyone at any time. Sometimes waiting is needed. There are reasons that kids have to be a certain height before they can go on certain carnival rides. So be it with firearms. Just because they can doesn't mean they should. Perhaps you should reconsider what your minimum age limit is that you are willing to instruct children with fully auto firearms. Take this tragedy and make something positive from it. The lack of empathy that you feel here is not what it appears to be. Instead, I propose that what you are feeling here from the forum members is outrage for what just happened. After the initial anger subsides, the empathy will automatically trickle in. I know that is what is happening to me regarding this tragedy. I saw the incident on video. It was horrible. Words cannot describe how sickening it was to watch. I learned that things happen very fast. I am not sure that a well placed hand on shoulder or muzzle is adequate given the fractions of a second needed to react to prevent such a terrible thing to happen again. Furthermore, there is a bit of self interest going on here that we need to address. We have all been around long enough to know that a tragedy should never go to waste in order to take away personal liberties. We will soon have pundits and legislation being ready to be passed with minimum age limits that children can shoot or risk child protection services coming to take your kid away. Also, this is another feather in the anti-gunnners cap as to the evil of these weapons in civilian's hands. No one wanted to say this but I feel we can respectfully do so now. Finally, I see the State pressing charges on the parents. I hope this is not the case. They have paid enough for what has happened.

Absolutely agree.

[knkali]

and so it starts....
http://news.msn.com/us/gun-tourism-grows-in-popularity-in-recent-years

[marcinstl]

the family was on vacation and for something to do, mom and dad signed off on their 9 yr. old daughter shooting an automatic weapon with minimal training by a marginal instructor at a very marginally operated range. (what if you were shooting in the next lane? comfortable with a 9 yr. old and Uzi next door? did you get sprayed to? good grief). what's the Army term I'm looking for to describe this, hmmm, "Cluster Fuxx"? little girl in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people.
now the little girl has to testify at trials, go to therapy and worst of all go back home with the "parents". good luck to the little girl in 9 more years she can get out of there and keep on going.

[wyntrout]

It has only been a year or so since an 8-year-ld boy fatally shot himself in the head with a full-auto Uzi in a similar situation... just crazy. A BB bun or AirSoft full-auto maybe, but a 9mm is just too much... maybe even a 22LR full-auto would be too much.

Wynn :rolleyes:

[ltxi]

The first full auto I fired was an issue Grease Gun. Well Now!! And I was a trained shooter adult.

I think the comment about the parents not being gun people, not understanding, and trusting the instructor was correct. So I'll back off my "they're morons" comment go with "too trusting". This is most firmly on range management and the instructor.

[TheLastDaze]

This is most firmly on range management and the instructor.

agreed.... keep your whits about you while around guns, especially kids with guns....

I've been handloading for about two months now and nothing keeps me focused more then loading and shooting...

[yqtszhj]

I feel bad for the guy, i really do, can't take back what happened, Just gotta hope that sopme damn good cmes from this, I'm not sure what though. IMO common sense should have prevailed here, not making a quick buck... Its sad, this was a young man to, not some ol foggy like Muggsy who is expendable. Just sayin

I have to say ole jocko has the best post so far. Well stated. You must have been hanging out with Greg while you were away.

[downtownv]

and so it starts....
http://news.msn.com/us/gun-tourism-grows-in-popularity-in-recent-years

Front page on the Newark Star Ledger, too!

[ltxi]

I have to say ole jocko has the best post so far. Well stated. You must have been hanging out with Greg while you were away.

Methinks ole jocko be going soft in his old age. Unlike "no pity here" me.

[DanTana]

How tragic and sad. This should of been prevented. Hard to believe an experience instructor would give a fully auto weapon to a first time shooter, and small child at that. Should of kept it at single shot.

[b4uqzme]

The first full auto I fired was an issue Grease Gun. Well Now!! And I was a trained shooter adult.

I think the comment about the parents not being gun people, not understanding, and trusting the instructor was correct. So I'll back off my "they're morons" comment go with "too trusting". This is most firmly on range management and the instructor.

Responsibility is firearms rule #1: the range, the instructor, the parents... Even with everyone attempting responsibility, accidents (negligence) will happen. I have a backyard range. Some friends, after a few beers, wanted to go shoot. "Nope! You are welcome to come back any day." I may seem like a jerk today but I may have just saved your life.

[TheLastDaze]

Responsibility is firearms rule #1: the range, the instructor, the parents... Even with everyone attempting responsibility, accidents (negligence) will happen. I have a backyard range. Some friends, after a few beers, wanted to go shoot. "Nope! You are welcome to come back any day." I may seem like a jerk today but I may have just saved your life.
good man... that's really hard to do when you're buzzed, normally Its like yeah man that's cool as everything is OKAY when you're buzzed but when it comes to guns, umm not so much.... Wished more people thought like that when cars are involved.... as it is a deadly weapon...

[ltxi]

I've long had a firm rule...never operate anything with whirling blades after the third beer. Euphemistically phrased...it extends.

[DavidS]

I've long had a firm rule...never operate anything with whirling blades after the third beer. Euphemistically phrased...it extends.
I pretty much burned myself out on alcohol consumption in high school, college, and younger adult life. Nowadays, except while on vacation cruises or at all-inclusive resorts, I like a glass of wine when out to dinner in a fancy restaurant on our anniversary. Other than that, I prefer soda or water. If the waiter or anyone else pushes me, I say "designated driver" and that ends that.

[muggsy]

Should a nine year old girl be allowed to ride a 1,000 pound horse? Should a nine year old girl be allowed to engage in gymnastics? Should a nine year old girl be allowed to ride a two wheel bike. Dive off the high board? What about roller blades? The problem here isn't with the nine year old girl. The problem was with a foolish instructor. He allowed this nine year old girl to fire an UZI full automatic after she had fired only one single shot. He should have put no more than three round in the magazine for her first full auto experience and only after she had fired a number of single rounds to get used to shooting. He should also have told her what to expect in the way of recoil. He paid the ultimate price for his foolishness.

[TheLastDaze]

Should a nine year old girl be allowed to ride a 1,000 pound horse? Should a nine year old girl be allowed to engage in gymnastics? Should a nine year old girl be allowed to ride a two wheel bike. Dive off the high board? What about roller blades? The problem here isn't with the nine year old girl. The problem was with a foolish instructor. He allowed this nine year old girl to fire an UZI full automatic after she had fired only one single shot. He should have put no more than three round in the magazine for her first full auto experience and only after she had fired a number of single rounds to get used to shooting. He should also have told her what to expect in the way of recoil. He paid the ultimate price for his foolishness.

good post.... and that would have been thinking it through, feeding little ammo at a time, but his head was somewhere else that day

[muggsy]

good post.... and that would have been thinking it through, feeding little ammo at a time, but his head was somewhere else that day

And today, too. (Call me insensitive.)

[TheLastDaze]

And today, too. (Call me insensitive.)

na I stepped into that one, after I posted I had a DOH moment... (in best simpson voice)

[larryz]

Doesn't the Uzi come with a loop strap at the front to help keep it stable? I didn't see one in the video...

[knkali]

Should a nine year old girl be allowed to ride a 1,000 pound horse? Should a nine year old girl be allowed to engage in gymnastics? Should a nine year old girl be allowed to ride a two wheel bike. Dive off the high board? What about roller blades? The problem here isn't with the nine year old girl. The problem was with a foolish instructor. He allowed this nine year old girl to fire an UZI full automatic after she had fired only one single shot. He should have put no more than three round in the magazine for her first full auto experience and only after she had fired a number of single rounds to get used to shooting. He should also have told her what to expect in the way of recoil. He paid the ultimate price for his foolishness.
those ideas are good for any age shooter going to full auto

[Buzzard45]

I hear that the range is installing restraints for full auto.....better late than never? In my humble opinion, I think the range should be held responsible, at least pay for counseling for the child.

[jocko]

gosh, knkali. reading Muggsy comments, he realy7 is sharp today. He is dead right, and I know now he willnot be ableto get in his own home for his head now willbe to big to get thrugh the door but he makes good sense. sahme a guy had to die, a shame parents would even consider letting a 9 year old shoot a full auto anything, but he paid the price for stupidity no doubt. Not sur ethe 9 year old will get the full feelings of any guilt until she gets older in life and then it might hit her, but I think counseling now might not do as well...

[garyb]

Very sad event and bad media for guns...period. I feel bad for the trainer and the little girl...and their families. I have grandchildren this age group and would never put a fully auto in their hands. We shoot single shot under very controlled and fun conditions. JMO. Very sad.