Post your experience with Lehigh XTreme Penetrator (XP) .380 round in the P-380 or CW

[erichard]

If people could post their experience with this round, maybe we can judge whether it's worth carrying. Please include whether you've modified your gun at all, particularly with respect to feeding/chambering the bullet (eg. polished feed ramp/chamber, slingshot mod, magazine release sanding, tip of slide release grinding, etc.). Also include whether your gun has known feeding issues with flat nose rounds like the Winchester White Box stuff found at Wally World (walmart) and whether it feeds other round nose ammo 100%, and maybe how many rounds are through the gun to date.

Issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rzp...zNFJMw&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RzpCcAPp84&list=UUX4Vw6XJMpnPgzbf4zNFJMw&index=1) http://www.kahrtalk.com/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhEAAQAOZ3APf39 Xl5fT09OPj4/Hx8evr6/3 /u7u7uDh4OPi497e3t7e3/z8/P79/X3GbuXl5ubl5eHg4WzFUfb39 Pj4lzGOV7LOPz7 /n6 vn5 ZTLj9/e387Ozt7f3/7 /vv7/ISbePn5 m/JV1nRKXmVbkCnKVrSLDqsCuDh4d/e3uDn3/z7/H6TdVeaV1uSW bn5v39/eXm5eXm5kyHP/f39pzGmVy7J3yRd9/f3mLEKkXCHJbka2TVM5vaZn6Wdfn6 YG/c/r5 ZO/jeLi41aHTIeageLn4f39/vr6 kzNG2PVM5i lomdf2CXYKHVmtzo2YXNeDqsBebl5uHh4HDKWN3g3kKqEH6WeZ HTXIPKdnSPbv79/pfmbE7PHpe1l4O8dTO5DODg4VDLIlKUUtzo2J7SmEWsLlG4NJb FjkrJHP7 /VK5Nfz8 zmnC3KKa Hg4OHh4Y63j/3 /eDg4Ojo6P///8DAwP///wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEAAHcALAAAAAA QABAAAAfWgHd2g4SFhYJzdYqLjIpzgx5bBgYwHg1Hk2oNDXKDF wwfDF5NLmMtcStsn4MhGT8YS04aGmU1QRhIGYMTADQAQlAODll oAMYTgwICRmRfVBISIkBPKsqDBAREZmcVFhYVayUz2IMHB1dWO mImI2lgUVrmgwUFLzdtXTxKSSduMfSD6Aik48MGlx05SAykM0g KhAAPAhTB0oNFABkPHg5KMIBCxzlMQFQZMGBIggSDpsCJgGDOm zkIUCAIM2dOhEEcNijQuQDHgg4KOqRYwMGOIENIB90JBAA7 (http://savefrom.net/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4 RzpCcAPp84%26list%3DUUX4Vw6XJMpnPgzbf4zNFJMw%26ind ex%3D1&utm_source=safari&utm_medium=extensions&utm_campaign=link_modifier)

Lehigh recently put up a video (above) showing that XP bullet being cycled through 5 subcompact guns, including the P380. In that video, it seemed to cycle through the P380 fine, but there is a written disclaimer at the beginning of the video that said the P380/CW380 was the only subcompact that did have issues (off camera apparently) and that the feeding issue was probably related to the steep feed ramp design in these guns. I believe they were getting nosedive issues, which I've experienced with flat nose/truncated WWB ammo.

I'd be curious to hear what other folks experience with this XP bullet, particularly those who have polished the feed ramp and done the slingshot alteration on the follower (which can be found in the new owner's forum as a sticky). That follower mod is meant to help prevent nosedives by keeping the bullet tipped upwards while still held by the magazine lips. I did that mod, and it did help with the Winchester FMJ flat nose bullet feeding.

The ammo is too expensive for one person to test hundreds of rounds, but maybe collectively we can analyze whether the modification makes the bullet useable. It would be a nice carry round since it virtually guarantees both penetration and a large wound channel while staying within FBI limits of 12 to 18 inches of ballistic gel penetration.

Absent that, we could still reliably use it as the first round in the chamber, since that would already have been fed prior to a gunfight. Not the greatest endorsement, but it might prove useful.

I also wonder if the feed ramp could be sanded just a bit to lessen the steepness of the lower aspect of the ramp ever so slightly. Given the video, it seems the ramp is borderline OK, but not 100% reliable. Just a little sanding might push it into the 100% category, but I'm not gunsmith, so I'm all ears on this possible strategy.

My guess is, if your p380/cw380 has trouble with the Winchester white box (wwb) truncated rounds, it will have occasional troubles with this Lehigh xtreme Penetrator. What I wonder is, if you no longer have problems with WWB due to the modification, then does that signal optimism for this XP bullet cycling ~100% in the Kahr 380. I'm guessing/hoping yes. That would allow perfecting your gun with cheap ammo prior to testing out expensive XP ammo.

I do think this could be the defensive bullet of the future, the next design after the long dominant hollow point. This is especially true of the .380, as it satisfies FBI requirements even through denim, where other .380 designs often fail. It makes the 380 a bona fide defensive round.

See ShootingTheBull410 on youtube ballistic get test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw
It's his top pick in .380.

[DavidR]

My CW380 feed ramp has not been modified and my follower have not been modified. I did sand the slide stop pin a little to prevent premature slide lock back.

I fired 20 rounds of Lehigh XP with no problems. My 380 with about 500 rounds through it has never had an FTF (Aguila FMJ, Blazer Brass FMJ, HPR Hyper Clean FMJ, Hornady Critical Defense, Federal Hydra Shok and Lehigh XP). It has had failures to return to full battery with everything except Hornady Critical Defense. It's back at Kahr for a warranty repair. I'll shoot more of the Lehigh when it comes back and post a report.

I would also be interested in anyone's experience with a Ruger LCP.

[kwh]

I bought 3 boxes of the Lehigh for my CW380,will report as soon as I try them.

[DavidR]

I put 20 flawless rounds through a new Ruger LCP today.

EDIT: another 7 rounds successfully through the LCP on 9/11.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/CEA79697-1B50-40C9-96FC-7FFAB5914B08_zps4b7ovj0c.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/CEA79697-1B50-40C9-96FC-7FFAB5914B08_zps4b7ovj0c.jpg.html)

[kwh]

30 rounds Lehigh , 30 rounds PrecisionOne XTP , 30 rounds of LRN reloads , all today at the range with my Kahr CW380. Report : About 400 rounds previously fired over 3 months with the expected occasional FTF during early break in, which took about 150 rounds. Used a variety of ammo since .380 is difficult to find and $30.00/ box FMJ. I was concerned that Lehigh may not feed due to the fact that some flat nose FMJ and H.P. reloads I found at a gun show last week averaged 1 nose dive/ magazine and would almost always nose dive when releasing the slide stop for the first round. That same day, I shot 50 rounds of factory FMJ round nose, which were 100%. Most happy to report a great day today. 100% on all 90 rounds. Only problem was with Lehighs. I Had 2 nose dives when releasing the slide stop to chamber the first round. I found out this was due to a limp wrist syndrome. Stiff wrist loaded just fine. Sling shot loading =no problems. Lehighs may not be the best to top off a mag in my Kahr for emergency quick reloads. Other than that, I am pleased so far.

[DavidR]

Only problem was with Lehighs. I Had 2 nose dives when releasing the slide stop to chamber the first round.

That's consistent with what Lehigh says on their website. Get the first round loaded and the rest of the mag is good to go.

[ltxi]

Not much comfort during a combat reload. Using any bullet with a nose shape like that in a fighting pistol is asking for trouble, imo

[kwh]

Not much comfort during a combat reload. Using any bullet with a nose shape like that in a fighting pistol is asking for trouble, imo

Agreed. Use proper bullet shape to top off mag for combat reload.

[garyb]

Interesting vids. Thanks for sharing.

[erichard]

Update: got some Lehigh XP and CF bullets in the mail. The XP seem a little fatter at the tip than the WWB, so keep that in mind. In hand cycling the ammo, it didn't seem like the XP would be reliable in the top spots of the magazine, so my plan has always been to put CF bullets (controlled fracture) in the top spots and one XP in the chamber for carry. The CF bullets are shaped in a friendly way for feed purposes, and the CW-380 hand cycled them well in all spots of the magazine. One good point about these bullets is that they are very well made in that they do not suffer from setback due to hand cycling, so you can test out load strategies by hand cycling over and over again without wearing out the bullet (which is great since they are so expensive).

Once I got the gun lubed sufficiently (lots), cleaned, and the recoil spring stretched just a little to empower it a bit more, everything fed OK with 2 exceptions in 4 magazines. Two of the XP bullets that were in the 4th and 5th position from the bottom of the magazine hung on the way up the ramp. They seemed to veer a little to the right and were in the "X" orientation looking head on at the bullet. What I found was that if the bullet were in the "+" orientation, I didn't get that hang up.

So to summarize, I think my gun will reliably cycle the XP in the bottom 4 or 5 spots of the magazine when the top (and maybe next one too) XP bullet is in the "+" orientation, and then plan to use a reliable feeder in the upper portion of the magazine, something like the CF bullet or Hornady Critical Defense, and then put one XP in the chamber. With the MagGuts in the extended magazine, that's 5 XP, 3 CF, + 1 XP (in chamber). One less CF in the normal magazine with MagGuts. It might be more conservative to use 3 or 4 XP rather than 5, as the XP get more reliable the lower they are in the magazine. The reason for that, for those curious, is that they maintain the follower orientation upward better the closer they are to the follower (as mentioned in the OP) AND they have significantly less friction leaving the magazine as the magazine spring is pressing much less on the follower and stack of bullets as there are fewer and fewer bullets left.

I can't say this will work for everybody (although they apparently work in every case for some here) because I did work on the gun by polishing and sanding the ramp and magazine lips, by stretching the recoil spring a bit, by polishing the breech and extractor, by adding MagGuts and bending the that follower slightly upward, and finally, I lubed and cleaned throughly before trying.

Finally let me say that the CF bullets are impressive, and may be all you need. I haven't seen official ballistic gel tests through denim, but the gel test I did see looked great:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...tal_comments=3 (https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=736344166403261&comment_id=736476713056673&offset=0&total_comments=3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZEd_kTh6I

These CF seem like better feeding ammo, and while they aren't geared towards penetration like the XP, they seem to have a hand grenade effect once they hit gel will one main body and three pieces of shrapnel triangulating outwards (petals of the CF bullet). FWIW, I took a couple photos. Target was shot from about 22ft or a little over 7 yards, generally thought to be the long side of the typical self defense range. Here are jpgs of the 9 shots taken from the extended mag with magguts (+ one in chamber), 6 XP and 3 CF (target photo) and a jug of water placed behind the target for one of the CF bullets.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/42563sw4m...EXFuYBEAa?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/42563sw4m1b2g8d/AADO440eGVFhuDhIEXFuYBEAa?dl=0)
For the jug, note how wide and symmetrical the 4 exit wounds are. The jug is maybe a gallon jug 6 inches in diameter. The triangle formed by the exit of the petals of the bullet is about 5 inches per side, with the holes being about 1 inch in length (more like a cut or rip than a hole). The center hole was just a little bigger than the other 380 bullets possibly from tumble (can't see other bullet holes in that photo, but they came later). The third photo shows the entry of the CF bullet (was shooting downhill, so the entry is higher than the exits). Would not want to be hit with that CF round.