Is "In the Gravest Extreme" Bad For You?

[OldLincoln]

I read the 10 Commandments of Concealed Carry by Massad Ayoob (http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/35965-massad-ayoobs-ten-commandments-cc.html) from the post by Wynn and thought once again about his famous "In the Gravest Extreme" book. I want to read it but then again don't want my mind filled with indecision in an incident.

I am very analytical and tend to over think things, so if a threat starts walking my way, would I start reciting warnings from the book on all the trouble I'll get into if I don't let the SOB kill me or focus on what to do to protect myself.

Yes I've read just about every article and post about what justifies lethal force and most scenarios here and at the DC Forum. I think I'm okay but see all the stuff about everyone should read that book.

So, would "that book" be good for me or bad for me?

[Dietrich]

Anyone who decides to arm themselves should read "In The Gravest Extreme" and then re-read it periodically.Ayoob has probably saved a lot of people a tremendous amount of grief with his knowledge of the laws and the aftermath of using a firearm in self defense.In this field,he is an expert`s expert.There are parts of the book that are dated because many modern firearms and ammo brands weren`t invented when it was written but the guidelines concerning your rights and responsibilities when you arm yourself are still the same.

[medezyner]

I know what you mean Ol Lincoln, but never forget the old saying that knowledge is power. When the balloon goes up (& hopefully it doesn’t), trust your instincts and training. It's all we can hope for when it’s all on the line.

[Bawanna]

I agree with Dietrich, I'd read it. I don't know how Massaad has had time to do all the things he's done and still have time to read a book but it's a very informative book. One of our guys has been to his classe's twice now and spoke very highly of him. Some of his ideas are awesome but perhaps a bit over the top. Lacing a mirror into your shoe to look around corners is a stretch. Get it read it. It's good.

[OldLincoln]

Lacing a mirror on your shoe will get you arrested! Pervert! Looking up skirts - shame on you! But officer, it's in self defense!! Yeah.. right. Book 'em Charlie!

[OldLincoln]

OK, I'll read it, but it's all your fault!

[Bawanna]

OK, I'll read it, but it's all your fault!

Blame it on Dietrich, he thunk it up.

It's good information and tons of food for thought. I laughed also at the part where he has a good firearms defense attorney lined up for every place he visits. Gotta sort it out a bit. You gotta copy or need to find one?
As a side note, the officer here who went to his class beat Massaad. He has a deal during the shooting part of his class, if you tie him you get a signed dollar bill, if you beat him you get a signed 5 dollar bill. My guy has one of each. Was using a Beretta 92. He's a firearms instructor and a pretty good shot. Massaad is no slouch himself, pretty darn good according to first hand rumor.

[OldLincoln]

OK, Bawanna, time to stand before the bench! I was looking through old posta and came across this one:
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"Sadly it's this same legal mine field that I believe gets alot of police officers killed. Trying to make split second decisions and having the legal consequences running around in the back of their minds. Everything from race issues, to size, gender you name it. Someone mentioned you lag you lose and if your thinking of the consequences (which we all have to regardless) your already in a big disadvantage with the bad guy.
I just avoid places where I think trouble might lurk and hope for the best. Hope if the time ever comes I'll make the right choice, so far so good."
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Can you name the feller who wrote that? It is EXACTLY what prompted this thread. And you want me to read the book. You trying to get me kilt? Hell if the book learnin about after shooting consequences gets lots of cops killed what about me? I'm smart about a lot of things but not street smart and I assume that for the most part cops are.

So which is it? Read / Don't Read?

[Bawanna]

OK, Bawanna, time to stand before the bench! I was looking through old posta and came across this one:
--------
"Sadly it's this same legal mine field that I believe gets alot of police officers killed. Trying to make split second decisions and having the legal consequences running around in the back of their minds. Everything from race issues, to size, gender you name it. Someone mentioned you lag you lose and if your thinking of the consequences (which we all have to regardless) your already in a big disadvantage with the bad guy.
I just avoid places where I think trouble might lurk and hope for the best. Hope if the time ever comes I'll make the right choice, so far so good."
--------
Can you name the feller who wrote that? It is EXACTLY what prompted this thread. And you want me to read the book. You trying to get me kilt? Hell if the book learnin about after shooting consequences gets lots of cops killed what about me? I'm smart about a lot of things but not street smart and I assume that for the most part cops are.

So which is it? Read / Don't Read?

I still say read it. Take what works for you and leave the rest. The above post, I'm a little foggy on the jist but I know we were already at the shoot don't shoot point. And its even worse for officers because the public assumes they are highly trained robots who don't have to make judgement calls. My statement above refered to an officer near here who responded to a call of a naked man on a busy thorofare harassing and threatening people. He arrived alone, drew his gun (mind running 1000 mph) reholsters gun, goes hands on with larger naked male. Fully equiped white cop, very large naked black suspect. Would you shoot him? Officer didn't, he got beat shot and killed with his own gun. Had he shot, what do you think would have happened to the veteran highly trained officer who shot a naked black man.
That's what I was referring too. Read the book, you'll love it.

[Bawanna]

OK, Bawanna, time to stand before the bench! I was looking through old posta and came across this one:
--------
"Sadly it's this same legal mine field that I believe gets alot of police officers killed. Trying to make split second decisions and having the legal consequences running around in the back of their minds. Everything from race issues, to size, gender you name it. Someone mentioned you lag you lose and if your thinking of the consequences (which we all have to regardless) your already in a big disadvantage with the bad guy.
I just avoid places where I think trouble might lurk and hope for the best. Hope if the time ever comes I'll make the right choice, so far so good."
--------
Can you name the feller who wrote that? It is EXACTLY what prompted this thread. And you want me to read the book. You trying to get me kilt? Hell if the book learnin about after shooting consequences gets lots of cops killed what about me? I'm smart about a lot of things but not street smart and I assume that for the most part cops are.

So which is it? Read / Don't Read?

By the way I wrote that in case I wasn't clear last post.

[Tack]

I read In The Gravest Extreme years ago, several times. As a matter of fact, if anyone comes across my copy, let me know as I loaned it out, (not to anyone here) and it never returned home.

As an LEO I was in a shooting several years ago. I'm a Firearms Instructor and knowing what would happen as far as the reactions of the mind and body beforehand was very helpfull.

I've read alot of what Massad has written, and spoke with him after my shooting. I think his greatest contribution to the shooting and training community are his debriefs of those of us who been involved in critical incidents.

Knowing the potential pitfalls and aftermath of a shooting, didn't stop me from doing what I had to do. I thought about my wife and sons, and I remember thinking "The SOB is gonna make me do it". I don't think that you'll avoid those reactions and thoughts whether you've read a book or not. Knowing what to expect doesn't mean you'll experience any or all of those reactions. I had auditory exclusion. I shot a 12Ga. and my ears didn't ring afterwards. As far as recoil, I would swear to this day, I shot a .22 rifle.

I did experience what Massad calls "The Mark Of Cain Syndrome". People you know, and one's you don't look at you funny, and you get the "That's the Guy sort of thing". One of my partners was looking sidewards at me a few days afterwards while I was typing a report. I got that someone's watching me feeling, and caught him watching me. I looked at him and told him that if he didn't stop looking at me that way, I was going to shoot him too! He knew I was alright then.

Not an experience I'd want to repeat, but given the same circumstances, I'd do it the same way again.

Hope this helps your decision.
Be Safe Out There.

[medezyner]

Tack, sorry to hear that you had to experience something that I’m sure all LEO’s dread, but you’re training and instincts saved you and I appreciate you sharing some of that experience. My son majored in Criminal Justice, just graduated, and looks forward to a career in LE. As a certified trainer, I’m always learning and have done my best to pass my knowledge and training on to my son. He’s ready to take his training to another level and I hope I’ve laid good ground work for him. Just as your life depended on it, so does his. I sent you a PM.

[Longitude Zero]

Read it and learn it well. Ayoob is very good on preparing you for the aftermath when the gunsmoke clears. You will come across many "so called" cogescenti who contradict him. Pay them no heed as most have not faced the demon.

I had one fool try to tell me that you don't have to have fired in self defense to know what it feels like. He was and is so wrong.

[Bawanna]

Read it and learn it well. Ayoob is very good on preparing you for the aftermath when the gunsmoke clears. You will come across many "so called" cogescenti who contradict him. Pay them no heed as most have not faced the demon.

I had one fool try to tell me that you don't have to have fired in self defense to know what it feels like. He was and is so wrong.

I've been avoiding the +1 thing due to the scent deal but I gotta plus one this one. One advantage Ayoob has is all his interaction with people who have experienced shootings. Alot of input to draw from and he sure brings up lots of things the average person doesn't think of. Most who would contradict him are probably wannabes or jealous of how well know and respected it truely is.
I've never shot another person but even the gun in hand, threat and adrenaline dump, even not having to shoot is traumatic. Pulling the trigger has to move things up the ladder 10 times. I prefer not to go there given the choice.

[OldLincoln]

There's a guy named Bruce who in another forum told his story of being confronted by a man with a knife - story (http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/carry-defensive-scenarios/97862-folks-finally-happened-i-pulled-my-gun-afternoon-self-defense.html). He didn't have to shoot and the BG ran off, but the meat of his thread is dealing with the incident afterward. It appears to be traumatic but not everyone reacts the same.

As a near teenager, I answered the door and 3 guys forced their way in trying to get to my older sister. They knocked me down and I ran into the kitchen and got the biggest knife we had. When I got to them they ran and that was that. My mind set was they were not going to harm sis and I was fully prepared to run them through.

Other than adrenaline, I didn't have a problem with the incident. Funny, that was over 50 years ago and the memories came back like it were yesterday. Now, what did I have for breakfast 30 minutes ago?

OK, I'll read the book. Heck I'll even buy it first.

[Bawanna]

There's a guy named Bruce who in another forum told his story of being confronted by a man with a knife - story (http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/carry-defensive-scenarios/97862-folks-finally-happened-i-pulled-my-gun-afternoon-self-defense.html). He didn't have to shoot and the BG ran off, but the meat of his thread is dealing with the incident afterward. It appears to be traumatic but not everyone reacts the same.

As a near teenager, I answered the door and 3 guys forced their way in trying to get to my older sister. They knocked me down and I ran into the kitchen and got the biggest knife we had. When I got to them they ran and that was that. My mind set was they were not going to harm sis and I was fully prepared to run them through.

Other than adrenaline, I didn't have a problem with the incident. Funny, that was over 50 years ago and the memories came back like it were yesterday. Now, what did I have for breakfast 30 minutes ago?

OK, I'll read the book. Heck I'll even buy it first.

You emphasize a good point. It isn't even really all about the gun. It's the whole adrenaline soaked incident experience itself. Be it gun, knife, baseball bat. Things are happening fast, decisions have to be made in very little time. Everyone reacts differently and experiences different things afterwards. As Ayoob states in the book often times people don't even recall parts of the whole deal. Don't remember hearing a shot, don't remember aiming or even reloading. It messes with the head big time apparently.

[Longitude Zero]

Many times the shooter reacts in the manner that they believe the public/family/friends want them to react. Basically they are mirroring what they see and reacting in a consistent manner.

Winning a life threatening encounter is mostly great exhiliration and thrill at having survived. You are not "thrilled" you have shot someone but you are ecstatic that you have survived. Giddy would be an appropriate terminology.

Unfortunately society does not want you to be thrilled and happy you won and therefor looks down upon being glad that you and your training carried the day/night. Society wants you to feel sad/sick/impotent/outcast for what happened.

Choose to survive the encounter and thrive in conquering the aftermath. Sadly to avoid being sued into bankruptcy you often have to play the "society reaction" game. Even if you do the lawsuit can and frequently is ruinous if you are not in a jurisdiction that grants civil immunity in justifiable homicide cases.

To each their own.