Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

[muggsy]

If you handgun enthusiasts want to read the FBI PDF on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness then google - firearms statistics pfd fbi hwfe where you can read all about it. If Jocko is interested he'll have to find someone who can read it to him. :) Page 11 tells you what you should look for in a bullet.

[Harrylee]

hey muggsy is this the one your talking about?

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[Ikeo74]

Hmm, Old study done in 1989, that is 25 years ago. There has been a lot of changes done to bullets and velocities since then. Bullet construction has changed. However information about wounds and incapacitation may be similar.

[muggsy]

hey muggsy is this the one your talking about?

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

That's the one. I couldn't get the link to copy and paste. A lot of good info there. Thanks much, Harrylee.

[muggsy]

Hmm, Old study done in 1989, that is 25 years ago. There has been a lot of changes done to bullets and velocities since then. Bullet construction has changed. However information about wounds and incapacitation may be similar.

There is nothing new under the sun. Everything in the report still holds true today. The projectiles may have changed, but men are still the same. I've always held that penetration is far more important than expansion. That's why the 100 year old 230 Gr FMJ ball ammo is still so effective. This is where the ballistic gel test incorporating four layers denim came from.

[SlowBurn]

Here's FBI's current take. No difference in principle, but modern law enforcement grade 9mm ammo penetrates and makes a bigger hole than it used to. And the same size gun in 9 will have more capacity than a 40 or 45.

fbi-training-division-justifies-9mm-caliber-selection (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/26/fbi-training-division-justifies-9mm-caliber-selection/#)

Bottom line then and now is no pistol caliber has “knock down” capability, so a bullet that will penetrate at least 12” from an angled shot, and make an enlarged hole, is going to be about as effective as pistol ammo can be.

[muggsy]

What you said is true, SlowBurn and I'm not here to debate caliber. The reason that I posted the information is to show that penetration is more important consideration than expansion. A hollow point plugged with cloth behaves like ball ammunition. Most important of all is shot placement. A fifteen round magazine capacity is no advantage unless you can score hits. Over penetration shouldn't be a concern as trained police officers miss with 70% to 80% of their shots in a gun fight. If you are going to stop someone from doing harm you must score multiple hits in vital areas and the bullets must penetrate deeply to affect vital organs.

[TheLastDaze]

Maybe I'm just ignorant but I've always been perplexed when people talk about penetration needed for vital organs... I mean the organs aren't that far from the torso flesh/meat/fat are they?? I'm in the camp for shot placement as well, but hitting a bone the bullet will still deflect and hit something else doing even more damage... I posted a thread about my old Federal 147gr Hishok ammo, it used to fare well back in the day and I really think its very close to the HST at least in spec... Its what I carry at the moment as I haven't found anything locally that I'm interested in using... I don't feel that ball ammo is a good choice personally and think the bigger and nastier the wound can be the better.. A good penetrating and expanding (no fouling) hollow point is ideal sd ammo imo....

[RRP]

There is nothing new under the sun. Everything in the report still holds true today. The projectiles may have changed, but men are still the same. I've always held that penetration is far more important than expansion. That's why the 100 year old 230 Gr FMJ ball ammo is still so effective. This is where the ballistic gel test incorporating four layers denim came from.

The study also highlights the importance of velocity in the wounding capacity of a round. Newer studies have shown that small and fast projectiles may be as effective as big and slow.

I'm not here to debate caliber, either. I have 'em all. I like 'em all. But the study convinced me that predicting incapacitation is complex and that diameter and weight of a projectile is only part of the equation.

That report was a good find, Muggsy. I enjoyed the read and sent it to a few of my instructor friends.

[marcinstl]

old, lazy, out of shape? huh, ya talkin to me? hehehehe, " point at the belt buckle and muzzle raise will take care of the rest".
start off about 6-8" below the buckle(pelvis and hip bones) (downward shots help with rule #4). let the gun help you work your way up. after reading accounts of defense shootings, rounds fired to stop the threat, it seems like high capacity is the way to go.
(earlier this past spring, 4 thugs jumped a guy and his girlfriend in the park at night, the guy identified himself as a cop as he was drawing his pistol and began firing, he stopped firing after he had loaded the 3rd magazine. cop and girlfriend are ok, thugs not good. sounds like a Glock17 can do a decent impersonation of a Glock18.)

[Longitude Zero]

Two Words...Shot Placement. In general a 22LR to the head is more deadly than a 44Mag to the foot. Unless you disconnect the brain form the body aka spine shot the mechanism of death is exsanguination. So the larger the diameter and/or the more bleeding the bullet causes the better. Dr. Martin Fackler of the International Wound Ballistics Group debunked the "temporary wound cavity" theory decades ago. Unless tissue is actual touched by the bullet and its castoffs aka fragments the "shock" of the bullets passage is negligible in causing incapacitation.

[SlowBurn]

Even prior to, and therefore more important than, shot placement is the first rule of gun fighting.

I love my old Glock 17 (Gen2) and it would be great to have, with 2 loaded mags, when trouble comes. If I was a leo or security whose job is to run towards trouble, that's what I'd chose on my belt.

But I'm not, and that's just not going to happen. Its usually in my vehicle. By carrying a pocket gun, in my mind I'm doing better now than I did just having a G17 in the car. The P380 is no wmd, but I've watched and read enough accounts where somebody saved the day with a little gun to know its not useless either. It doesn't have the highest velocity, or capacity. But I am getting better at shot placement. ;)

I want to mention, because you never hear this, that I'm very grateful to all of you who carry. I feel better knowing that there are responsible armed people out there. Thanks

[muggsy]

A large slow moving bullet disrupts more tissue and penetrates deeper than a high speed projectile that expands. If I was in a fight for my life I would want to be carrying a double stack .45 automatic. Unfortunately, full size double stack .45 automatic pistols are a bit hard to conceal. Life is full of compromises, so I carry a CM9 and back it up with a P380.

[Barth]

I'm a big believer in any service caliber gun with quality HP ammo can serve you well.
It's more important to be comfortable and proficient with the platform and caliber you carry.
Your worst day at the range is likely going to be much better than how you'll shoot in a defensive situation.
Adrenalin dump, shaking hands and tunnel vision is no fun.
Not that I know anything about that...

[TheLastDaze]

old, lazy, out of shape? Huh, ya talkin to me? Hehehehe, " point at the belt buckle and muzzle raise will take care of the rest".
Start off about 6-8" below the buckle(pelvis and hip bones) (downward shots help with rule #4). Let the gun help you work your way up. After reading accounts of defense shootings, rounds fired to stop the threat, it seems like high capacity is the way to go.
(earlier this past spring, 4 thugs jumped a guy and his girlfriend in the park at night, the guy identified himself as a cop as he was drawing his pistol and began firing, he stopped firing after he had loaded the 3rd magazine. Cop and girlfriend are ok, thugs not good. Sounds like a glock17 can do a decent impersonation of a glock18.)


outstanding !!!!!!

[muggsy]

A lot is made of the stretch cavity caused by hollow point bullet in ballistic gel. While impressive stretch cavities are usually confined to the first two or thee inches in a block of ballistic gel. That same tearing does not occur in human or tissue. Human tissue stretches rather than tears. Most the vital organs are well beyond the first two or three inches unless you shoot the person in the head or back.

[yqtszhj]

The Colonel always says shoot em in the face. Since he likes those .45s thats gonna be ugly.