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View Full Version : PM45 6-round magazine spring catatrosphic failure!



wyntrout
10-29-2014, 02:46 PM
I sure wasn't expecting this as I emptied all my PM45 mags while getting ready to take it to the range. This magazine was a replacement given me by Kahr after my first PM45 was destroying all of the magazines... 08-16-2010. I got the pistol back with a new frame and all new mags, including the 6-rounder. It's been loaded with defense rounds and unused since around 09-23-2010 after getting the pistol and replacements back from Kahr. I tested them that day.

I'm sure that mag made it to the range a few times, but it was a shock that after pushing the top round out of the magazine, the rest didn't pop to the top. I suspected the spring was stuck, but it took awhile pushing from the bottom and the top get all of the rounds and magazine parts and spring bits out of the tube!

I was going to the range, but it's getting late and I wanted to post this. I had just gotten my P380 ready for the range and couldn't find but 7 mags... should have 10 or so. I still have to figure where those went, too.

I had planned to shoot the PM45 and the P380 since it has been a while!

The other mags seem okay, but will be watching for any other spring failures.

Pictures follow.

Wynn :)

Bawanna
10-29-2014, 02:59 PM
Holy smokes. Broken in numerous places too, not just one spot.

Looks like some faulty spring wire there. Never seen the likes of that before.

wyntrout
10-29-2014, 03:02 PM
I just counted 10 pieces... pretty brittle, I guess.

I fired off an email with the pictures to Kahr just for their info. I have spare springs, but not sure for the 6-rounder.

Stuff happens!

Wynn :)

gb6491
10-29-2014, 03:58 PM
Wow, that's quite a failure.http://www.pic4ever.com/images/waaaht.gif

b4uqzme
10-29-2014, 04:52 PM
Follower looks OK though...:rolleyes:

I've never left a mag loaded for four years...is that what I can expect to happen?

BEARDOG
10-29-2014, 05:13 PM
Follower looks OK though...:rolleyes:

I've never left a mag loaded for four years...is that what I can expect to happen?

No. I have never seen anything like that before.
I have left lots of different brand pistol mags loaded longer then that with no issues. Some of my AR mags had been loaded since the early 90's! I got all new no-tilt Magpul followers to upgrade them last year so I unloaded them to install and all the springs were fine.

Bawanna
10-29-2014, 05:17 PM
I had two Colt 1911 mags loaded on Korean soil during the war. I shot them like 5 years ago and they shot perfectly. Old korean ammo, loaded all those years.

I no longer get too concerned about spring fatigue.

BEARDOG
10-29-2014, 05:31 PM
I had two Colt 1911 mags loaded on Korean soil during the war. I shot them like 5 years ago and they shot perfectly. Old korean ammo, loaded all those years.

I no longer get too concerned about spring fatigue.

There you go, whats that like 50 yrs?... It is the cycling that wears out a spring. What Wynn shows is exactly what you said "faulty spring wire".

wyntrout
10-29-2014, 08:45 PM
Follower looks OK though...:rolleyes:

I've never left a mag loaded for four years...is that what I can expect to happen?

I have a bunch of 7-round extended grip mags and several 5-rounders that are okay. I haven't looked, yet, to see if I have a spare 6-round mag spring.

Most mags are fine.

Wynn :)

yqtszhj
10-30-2014, 01:20 AM
I had two Colt 1911 mags loaded on Korean soil during the war. I shot them like 5 years ago and they shot perfectly. Old korean ammo, loaded all those years.

I no longer get too concerned about spring fatigue.

This is where you are supposed to say "see jocko, this is what you can do to a 1911/.45 that no one would ever think of doing with a 9mm."

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Bawanna
10-30-2014, 11:02 AM
Frankly I was shocked. The guy that gave me that Colt took it out of his duffle bag, told this story many times. He started to unload it and I asked him to just leave it as is. I thought that was good thinking on my part.
It was fully loaded but empty chamber. All I did was inspect the gun to make sure nothing was obviously broken or missing or anything that would blow up. No cleaning, a couple drops of oil on the rails as I recall and it ran like it was made yesterday.


I also got his M1 Carbine that was in the same duffle bag and had been since Korea as well. It's mint. Not a speck of rust or even wear. In the canvas type carry case they had. I think he was an officer of some sort. The 45 is well worn, character worn, not abused. The M1 looks like it never came out of the bag.

I've never shot it YET.

wyntrout
10-30-2014, 11:17 AM
Update: I heard from Kahr about the magazine. They have offered to replace the mag if I send it in. A new spring would be better, so I just replaced the spring with an old 1911 magazine spring that seemed to fit with a little alteration for the coil at the top to fit the follower. It's just not worth the time and expense of sending the magazine back to Kahr.

I have lots of random springs from various 1911 makes and just grabbed something that fits. In this case a S&W 645 magazine spring from a mag with a broken tube. The 6-round mag is not something I carry... just for the range. I carry the 5-rounder in the pistol for CCW and carry a 7-round extended-grip mag as a reload.

Wynn :)

RRP
10-30-2014, 02:39 PM
Wyntrout's experience should be a lesson to all of us. Guns are mechanical devices and they can (and will) fail. Thank goodness wyntrout discovered and fixed the problem before he needed the pistol to save his life.

We wouldn't go on a long trip without first checking tire pressure and oil level. We should perform the same due diligence if we're going to trust our lives to a pistol. Four years is way too long between test drives.

CJB
10-30-2014, 08:06 PM
Col. don't be shocked.

The US ARMY Ordnance did a test, that was printed in The American Rifleman back in the early 60's (or maybe it was late 50's... don't crucify me!). They basically had 1911 magazines, that for some reason, were found to be charged with seven rounds of ammo, what that had been in storage since the first 1911 was still in warranty. Old stuff. WWI era.

They tested the ammo, and the magazines and found zero defects in either - which is not surprising. For the old clorate primed 45 ammo, the saving grace was the bitumen seal on the bullet, and the lacquer seal on the primer. For the magazines - it has been established that compression within the designed range of the spring does not kill the spring, or alter it significantly. Repeated flexing will weakin the spring to a great degree. This is why locking back the slide on a new pistol is more or less useless, and so is hand racking. And why charged magazines - with decent quality springs - wont be greatly effected.

So, the question remains, did Wyn load and unload that magazine a few gazillion times in his sleep?

Bawanna
10-30-2014, 08:11 PM
I'm convinced in my head that it was just spring material gone very bad from the get go.

Too brittle or something. Even if loaded a gazillion times it would just be weak and girly man, still shouldn't break like that.

Faulty material.

b4uqzme
10-30-2014, 08:37 PM
I'm convinced in my head that it was just spring material gone very bad from the get go.

Too brittle or something. Even if loaded a gazillion times it would just be weak and girly man, still shouldn't break like that.

Faulty material.

That's what killed my comedy career........faulty material. :rolleyes:

TheLastDaze
10-30-2014, 08:49 PM
this was probably HT the same time the problem strikers were.....

that's a bummer for sure.....

Bawanna
10-30-2014, 09:04 PM
That's what killed my comedy career........faulty material. :rolleyes:

Oh man, you too huh? Dang near pandemic.

wyntrout
11-01-2014, 09:49 AM
UPDATE:

The 6-round failed at home before the range trip. At the range a 5-round PM45 mag failed... shattered spring like the 6-rounder. I also had a few malfunctions with one or two of the 7-round extended-grip mags... failure to feed and the slide not locking back on empty magazine.

I cleaned the pistols... PM45 and G21 SF that night... pretty quick for me... and found more problems with the PM45 mags as I tried to set some up for home defense. The other 5-round mag had a broken spring, too, and I decided to look at all of the magazines and took them apart. I also used my wooden mag depressor to test the springs before disassembly to see if any would fail. At the range, after the 5-round mag failed, I loaded all of the remaining mags at least once more to test them and then put about 5 magazinefulls through the remaining 5-rounder.

I'll post some pictures of this, but I noticed that the 7-round mags all had wimpy springs that were pretty weak and didn't seem correct. I had a spare each for the 5 and 7-round mags, so I counted the coils. The new 7-round spring had 18 coils and the new 5-round one 14. ALL of the 6 7-round mags and the 5-rounders had 14-coil springs! I couldn't tell what the 6-rounder had because it broke into 10 pieces... shattered.

I must have spent 20 minutes and lots of cussing trying to get that 18-coil spring into a 7-round magazine! That's the hardest thing I ever had to do with a Kahr! And yes, I DID try to use a straight pick to hold most of the coils in place, but that didn't work as the remaining coils couldn't be depressed enough with the pin in place. Anyhow, I finally got the danged thing together and loaded it with 7 rounds to see what that will do as it takes a set. I put the 14-coil one into the 5-rounder and loaded it, too.

I know that my wife was glad when I finally stopped screaming and cursing! Oh... and a little oil on the springs really help! :D

All of those magazines were replacements from Kahr back in January 2013... 7 when I had problems with splitting magazines and two more shortly thereafter that I had bought at Ivanhoe, so all 9 mags were from the same period. I don't know why, but it seems that someone used the wrong springs... easier to load?? And, maybe the temperature got too high during tempering of the wire so it was brittle.

I sent another email to Kahr about those findings and asked for replacement springs for all of the mags.

Man! The saga continues with my PM4544N (New 03/05/10) "Boomer", A.K.A. "Franken-Boomer"**Only original part may be slide lock after 5 trips back to the factory!

Wynn :)

Harrylee
11-02-2014, 09:28 AM
Sounds like a bad run that no one caught except for you good luck with Kahr at least you didn't find this out when you really needed the gun!!!!

CJB
11-02-2014, 09:43 AM
Wyn, may I politely inquire about your magazine cleaning?

Reason I'm asking - and I can't tell from images online - is I'm wondering if you've put the springs in the mags totally clean and dry, or if they had an oily film.

For this to happen on more than one magazine is almost unheard of, especially on magazines with springs of different production runs - such as you experienced. I do know that pains are taken in manufacturing of wire formed springs, to not nick or damage the wire as it will be a place the spring eventually breaks, with higher strength springs being more prone than mild ones. Same as when you forma leaf spring for a gun, the spring must be polished before heat treatment or you'll just end up breaking the spring, same goes for reforming one later on. You alter the spring - even if no heat was used or created in its alteration - you gotta polish it smooth again or it will snap easy.

So... the question is.... could some sort of surface rust have caused those two springs to be prone to breakage?

This is a most curious situation!

wyntrout
11-02-2014, 10:18 AM
I think they were badly tempered, the way they shattered... the 6-rounder into 10 pieces and the the 5-rounders into 6 and 4 pieces.

My standard preparation of new magazines is to thoroughly clean the tube of the grease gunk they have when new... forcing paper towels through the tube with a flat wooden slanted on one end piece of wood that I formed for that purpose. I then put Tetra oil on my fingers and rub it all over the spring/coils so that there's a light coat of oil. I also make sure that the follower falls freely from the base to the top when the mag is inverted and the follower is is released.

I don't regularly take the mags apart for cleaning since I don't really overuse them. I generally have 10 or more mags per pistol and load all of them for the range. The .45 ones I kept loaded for home defense... the extra ones in a dry, low humidity condition(<40%) tool chest of drawers that I use for my pistols.

I think that Kahr had a bad batch of mag springs from overheating during the tempering process. I'm no metallurgist by any means, but I've never seen springs do this kind of disintegration without a lot rust being involved.

Wynn :)

CJB
11-02-2014, 10:31 AM
I'd let Kahr have. That aint right

wyntrout
11-02-2014, 10:40 AM
I hope that they will send me replacements for all of the magazines. I can't see sending them all of my mags. I still have two of 4 6-round P45 mags that I bought from someone here. I wound up selling a few at the gun shows and two of those left. I haven't dug them out of the gun show bins to check their springs... number of coils, etc.

It was another big surprise that ALL of my six 7-round extended-grip mags had the 14-coil 5-round mag springs in them... totally inadequate for reliable slide lock back and feeding. The correct ones have 18 coils and are a b!tch to get assembled!

I was just going to use some 1911 officer spare mag springs for a few, but went ahead and used the spare springs I had more for sale at the gun shows. But after finding the same springs in both the 7 and 5-rounders, I used the spares and got 4 mags back into service.

Wynn :)

wyntrout
11-02-2014, 11:24 AM
I did load the 4 magazines with my defense rounds and test cycled them rapidly through the pistol... no problems. I WAS kind of worried about the 7-round mags' springs being too strong as they were so difficult to install!

Wynn :)

wyntrout
11-04-2014, 02:07 PM
Update. I sent an email on Friday and hadn't heard back, so I sent another today and got the same canned "send them in and we'll replace them", so I called and talked to Matt at Customer Service and he's going to send me replacement springs, saving us both a bunch of money. Their sending me 9 springs will be a lot cheaper than 9 mags! And, more importantly, faster for me!

Wynn :)

muggsy
11-08-2014, 06:18 PM
I think they were badly tempered, the way they shattered... the 6-rounder into 10 pieces and the the 5-rounders into 6 and 4 pieces.

My standard preparation of new magazines is to thoroughly clean the tube of the grease gunk they have when new... forcing paper towels through the tube with a flat wooden slanted on one end piece of wood that I formed for that purpose. I then put Tetra oil on my fingers and rub it all over the spring/coils so that there's a light coat of oil. I also make sure that the follower falls freely from the base to the top when the mag is inverted and the follower is is released.

I don't regularly take the mags apart for cleaning since I don't really overuse them. I generally have 10 or more mags per pistol and load all of them for the range. The .45 ones I kept loaded for home defense... the extra ones in a dry, low humidity condition(<40%) tool chest of drawers that I use for my pistols.

I think that Kahr had a bad batch of mag springs from overheating during the tempering process. I'm no metallurgist by any means, but I've never seen springs do this kind of disintegration without a lot rust being involved.

I've been known to have a bad temper and I've never shattered. I've come apart at the seams a few times, but never shattered.

Wynn :)

I've been known to have a bad temper and I've never shattered. I've come apart at the seams a few times, but never shattered. ;)

wyntrout
11-11-2014, 03:08 PM
Well, my springs came in today... Veterans' Day... and required an adult signature. :D I signed for them anyhow.

There were 3 14-coil springs for the 525 and 625 mags and 6 18-coil ones for the 7-rounders... what fun those were!

I got all four remaining 7-rounders done in less time than it took to do one of the other two last week... still cussing and making my wife very uncomfortable... sitting at the dining table. :D

I deburred the followers with 320-grit sandpaper and lightly lubed the springs... which really helps on installation... NOT! But it wasn't too bad... the lubing. I used Tetra Oil and a Q-tip for getting the insides of the coils lightly covered before using my fingers to add a bit to the outsides.

I did resort to using my straight pick to hold the springs in place after the first one.

All of my PM45 mags are back in service! Yay, Kahr Customer Service!

Wynn :)

smokersteve
11-11-2014, 09:40 PM
That many springs breaking is crazy. I've never seen one break let alone that many.
Why are you having such a hard time putting the springs in? The springs on my cw380 and cm9 are easy to put in. Is it because it's .45 acp?

wyntrout
11-11-2014, 10:54 PM
I can put those in with my eyes closed. The brand new springs for the 7-round .45's are 18-coils long and over twice the length of the magazine tube. The ones for the longer 9mm and .40 are similar, but not quite as strong and "wiggly". I have the P380, PM9, P9, P40 and the PM45. I have the largest Kahr mags for all of those and carry them as spares.

As I said... I routinely take new mags apart and degrease the tubes, deburr the parts as needed, and lightly oil the springs before reassembling them. The springs in assembled mags have take a little set and aren't as hard to install as a new uncompressed and un-set spring, especially the LONGER ones. The springs are designed and made longer so that when they are compressed and used, they take a set shorter length, but perform as designed.

Only three shattered. The 7-round mags all had the wrong springs... 14-coil ones used in the 5 and 6-round mags. The 14-round ones had taken a set and were too short and weak to work reliably in place of the correct 18-coil ones.

Wynn :)

wyntrout
11-11-2014, 11:25 PM
Here's the picture from earlier in this post with the original springs and mags. I also placed one new 18-coil spring for the 7-round magazine in the lineup for comparison.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11849&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1414853326

I just took some pictures of the six 14-coil springs on the left, then two new 14-coil springs, and then two new 18-coil springs. The leftmost six have taken a set which is too short for the 7-round mags. This you can see in the first photo where they only protrude an inch and a half or so... totally inadequate in the longer tube.

And, yes, the .45 springs are stronger, having slightly larger coils.

Wynn :)

livefreeordie1
11-12-2014, 12:29 AM
10 mags for a 380 pocket pistol? I call BS.

wyntrout
11-12-2014, 01:08 AM
Dang! I can only find 8 and only two of those are 7-rounders. I thought I had more of those. I may have misplaced a few 7-rounders after prepositioning them or packing them for our last road trip.

I did find 14x 9mm, 11x .40, and 9x .45 Kahr mags... actual personal ones, not counting those 1911 Officer models I have for the PM45... or the 9mm or .45 Kahr mags I have in my 200+ inventory of Glock, 1911, Kahr, and Ruger pistol mags that my wife and I try to vend at local gun shows.

I did have a dozen P380 mags when I had two of them briefly.

I really have a lot of Glock mags. I load up a dozen or more for the range, especially when my son visits and we go to the range.

I don't skimp on mags.

Wynn :)

wyntrout
11-12-2014, 01:29 AM
Yep! I found a picture of the two P380's with 11 mags shown and one not shown... the one where I blackened the baseplate and made that one spare parts after trying to modify the feed lips too much. So I have two mags somewhere... probably loaded and in a box for a trip.

I briefly had two P380's and sold the later one because my wife couldn't rack it... or any of my Kahrs. Two mags went with it.

Wynn :)

wyntrout
11-12-2014, 11:37 AM
10 mags for a 380 pocket pistol? I call BS.

BS? Is that hostility? I prefer to not put my faith in one... two... or even just three mags. Things break, get lost, and it's handy to have defense loaded mags as well as a bunch for the range. I don't have to empty and reload with all FMJ for a trip to to the range.

Wynn:)

livefreeordie1
11-12-2014, 03:57 PM
My apologies, I'll try to be nice.

DavidS
11-12-2014, 05:02 PM
............................................I don't have to empty and reload with all FMJ for a trip to to the range.

Wynn:)
Hmmmm. I had not thought of that when trying to figure out why I would need more mags. Guess I will start looking. Thanks.

b4uqzme
11-12-2014, 05:12 PM
You can never have too many mags. Problem is...I always have never enough money. :o

Bawanna
11-12-2014, 05:13 PM
Especially in 380. More mags the merrier.

wyntrout
11-12-2014, 09:28 PM
My apologies, I'll try to be nice.

No problem! Just yankin' your chain. Most people think two are enough... some... even the ONE that came with their pistol. They cry the loudest when their only mag breaks... we've seen that happen a lot with the chea... er, value-priced models. 3 mags is a minimum, because I carry a spare with every pistol and 3 becomes 2 becomes 1 and even 0. One of my favorite pistols... the PM45... had ALL of the Kahr mags fail... 9! That's why I should rotate guns through trips at the range instead of just a few favorites. The PM45 is one that I had for home defense... positioned with extra loaded mags... all of which were found to be broken or unreliable.

When my wife could rack my G23C but not my Kahrs, I sought a G19 for her "battle pistol". The first thing I did was try to get at least 10 mags before I even got the pistol. At the time, I was lucky that a fellow member here had what I needed and at a decent price... before things really got crazy.

I have a lot of magazines and ammo that will be worth more than paper money if things go to hell, which is a good thing, because we don't have much money as my wife has been without a job for about a year and a half. And... my lottery investments have been less than uplifting... financially!

Wynn :)

wyntrout
12-13-2014, 09:16 PM
I did find the two missing .380 mags in a drawer kitchen where I have a lot of stuff as well as the usual resting place for for the P380. holsters, and extra loaded mags. There were one 6-rounder and one 7-round extended grip. That makes 10 serviceable .380 mags. I knew they were someplace, but they had been pushed to the rear of a deep drawer.

I saw a couple of CT-380's at the gun show today... one was only $299.99, but I need money to pay off credit cards that I used to buy inventory for our gun show vending "hobby"! We did manage to pay for the table today... $90, though I had greatly reduced prices and washes on some sales... trying to reduce inventory and free up some of the probably $5k+ that I have in magazines!

Wynn :)