Help Figuring Out the Kahr's Long Reset

[McE]

I was at the range today and I had trouble being accurate with somewhat rapid multiple shot strings with my Kahrs (CW45 and PM9).

Slow fire, I can have the holes on the paper touching, no problem at 20-30ft, but I just couldn't keep them reasonably grouped when trying to fire as rapid as sight picture is reacquired. I can get in decent double taps with my other guns, but on the Kahrs it was seemingly futile. It was still minute-of-bad-guy, but I can do better with literally all of my other guns that happen to have shorter resets.

Does anyone have any tips on how to improve with shooting Kahrs?
I noticed myself paying extra mind not to short stroke the trigger, but there was some hesitation between shots as it felt weird having my finger come off the trigger for a moment once it had reset. Other guns that have an early reset point of course allow your finger a decent margin where you can remain in contact with the trigger past the reset point. Seemed like I was slapping at the trigger for the worst of it.

[Photoman]

I think what you will find is that more rounds downrange will help. When I decided to master the DAO Airweight J frame S&W's, I didn't shoot any other guns for a while and put a ~lot~ of rounds through my 642. Your body will figure out the trigger pull in due time and you will be able to get some satisfactory double taps.

[b4uqzme]

Agreed, All it should take is more practice. In my case, practicing with my Kahrs made me better with other pistols too. You may find the same. And experiment with trigger finger placement. Too much or too little can make a difference.

[muggsy]

I have no problem with the Kahr trigger, but then I cut my teeth on S&W revolvers. My only suggestion is to build speed slowly. You'll get it in time.

[Scarywoody]

I'm in the process of getting used to the trigger of my CM9. I'm a Glock shooter. I'm consistently a little low left. I think it's my head angle. I'm slowly getting used to the sight picture. I added a Pachmyr grip and that gave me a fuller hand which helped accuracy. Double tap with Glock is a natural, with Kahr, not so much. I guess that's part of the break in time with Kahr pistols. Practice helps the pistol and shooter loosen up and work together.

[ripley16]

Some guns, by design, are very quick to shoot. The Kahr trigger design does not lend itself to really fast shots, or at least not as fast as possible with other brands of pistol. This is just a fact. For example, Walther in particular has aimed at producing a quick trigger, (as found on the P99 QA and current PPQ). Don't compare your Kahr with your other guns.

My advice would be to forget about "shooting to the reset". Retrain your finger to "full stroke" the trigger. The only way I can shoot a Kahr fast is to break a rule and put my finger fully on the trigger, (not the pad) and muscle the trigger back. I'm less accurate, but faster. About the best I can do is a 6" group at 7 yards. When I practice, I shoot 4 groups of two, attempting to shoot each group a tiny bit quicker than the previous. However, my goal is to get as fast as possible with a Kahr, which is not as fast as with most other pistols.

[JohnR]

No, don't just keep flinging lead! If you're not getting the accuracy you want, change how you're shooting (finger placement most likely). Don't keep repeating the same "error" or you'll waste a bunch of money on ammo.

Kahrs aren't meant for precise rapid fire. Get a 1911 if that's what you want in a carry gun. Look at the advantage of the Kahr - long smooth trigger with no safety; it's simple point-n-shoot. And if you're stopping a bad guy, you do not want four bullets in the same hole. If you hit meat with a 4-6" group, that's multiple wound channels for faster bleed-out and a better chance of hitting his off-switch. Think of it as a slow-fire shotgun. Embrace the scatter!

[TheTman]

I agree with John, you don't want a tight group oh a bad guy, you want to spread the shots out, with more chances of hitting vital organs.
If I thought I was having a problem with my shooting technique, I would have an experienced pistolero watch me, and see if he could see what I was doing wrong.
The range masters at the indoor ranges I go to are always happy to spend a few minutes with you and let you know what they think is going on.

[Bazooka]

No, don't just keep flinging lead! If you're not getting the accuracy you want, change how you're shooting (finger placement most likely). Don't keep repeating the same "error" or you'll waste a bunch of money on ammo.

Kahrs aren't meant for precise rapid fire. Get a 1911 if that's what you want in a carry gun. Look at the advantage of the Kahr - long smooth trigger with no safety; it's simple point-n-shoot. And if you're stopping a bad guy, you do not want four bullets in the same hole. If you hit meat with a 4-6" group, that's multiple wound channels for faster bleed-out and a better chance of hitting his off-switch. Think of it as a slow-fire shotgun. Embrace the scatter!

Well said JR!

[CPTKILLER]

In my opinion, getting used to Kahr sights may be part of this.

[berettabone]

If, when a time comes for you to have to protect yourself from someone who is determined to hurt or kill you............you will not remember finger slap, the space left between your finger and the trigger during rapid fire/reset, lining up your sights, etc. You will remember when it's done. Just like the ketchup packet with your fries. Squeeze until empty:o

[McE]

In my opinion, getting used to Kahr sights may be part of this.

I don't have a problem with the sights, I really like them and line them up very quickly. It's the trigger finger exodus between shots that's throwing me off.

Should I try keeping the trigger fully held back until ready to fire again, then do a quick release and press? or get off the trigger until ready to fire then do a full press? or actually try to take up some of the trigger as I reacquire my sights?

Sounds odd but the smooth, light, non-stacking qualities of the trigger make that last option seem a more delicate operation than, say, my M&P45 where I can bring it in to the breaking point until ready to give it a click to fire.

[jocko]

adrenalin dump is not measurable, each of us have a different level. I have bowhunted most all of my life and I am sure any of u guys whgo have bowhunted know what buck fever is. It isdifferent in all people. If ur a veteral bowhunter and have bow killed many an8imals then the adrenalin dump is far less than a first timer who pulls back on a nice buck at 10 yards. Itis just IMO human nature to get excited.Ihave missed many a deer at close range 15 yards and under where as in my back yard practicing, I can say I could pu7t every arrow somewhere in a deertarget. WHY IS TAT?? U canpt practice shooint a person, u can shoot at a person target but it is no different than my deer target. So IMO not sure u can tray to over come an adrenalin dump when it comes time to "shoot to kill". Most trained officers cannot tellu how many shots they even fired, so why is it that some of these bleeding liberazls feel that every time a cop has to fire his gun tha the is gonna be dead on target and never miss. Most officers are probably like ol jocko in that tree stand when that big bucks comes within 10 yards. IT IS THERRE FIRST TIME AT SHOOTING AT A LIVE PERSON. There certainly is a difference. U can train allu want which is fine but u will never know for sure andhopefully never have to cross that line either.

I have always felt thtI can take some verbal abuse and some physical abuse, butplease don't fopkk with my family. Being Macho to me also means finding a betterway out of abadsituation than drawing ur weapon . Just sayin
If deercould shoot back I would have quit deer hunting many years ago. Just sayin

[Longitude Zero]

Each weapon has its own unique MOA. Lots of practice is my suggestion.

[berettabone]

IMHO......Kahr's were never meant to be rapid fire firearms. If they were, they would have a different trigger. I don't know about you, but I can stack my trigger on an older MK, slow fire. I also grew up shooting revolvers first, so letting the trigger reset isn't that big a deal to me. I can understand how anyone who is used to other firearms would have some difficulty. It's been said many times, cm, pm,mk, they're not target guns. If you can shoot one a second, and have all shots hit a man size target in the middle of the torso, that's respectable in my book.

[Antarius]

It should also be said that some people, no matter what, don't ever get used to or like double action triggers.

In the day and age of "safe action" strikers, or DA/SA and true single action -- some people never get around to learning a good double action trigger.

Personally I love DA triggers, if smooth and light, and while I can't fire as fast as a SA, I am as accurate.

Remember, you should only be firing as fast as you can while still hitting what you want. If you aren't, you need to slow down. There will be a point where either the gun, or you, are physically incapable of staying on target at a given speed. In double action pistols, this will almost always be a little bit slower than a single action 1911 for example.

[McE]

My first gun was a revolver with a hefty DA, so I'm no stranger to the pull, I'm just a little reluctant to have to classify the Kahr semi in that category to justify how it performs. Does that make sense?
Frankly I'm probably going to part ways with the CW45 as my M&P45 really is not all that much bigger in ways that matter, but I want to get better with my PM9 as it is my winter carry choice.

I would say my target goal is to get 2 sets of doubles (4 shots) in 2 seconds inside of a 6" circle at 7 yards. Is that a reasonable goal?

[leftysixty]

To shoot a Kahr pistol well you need to work the trigger like you would a double action revolver. Double action revolvers can be shot very fast and accurate.

If you can fire it smooth and accurate (don't worry about fast doubles) you will find that under stress you will shoot faster than you ever believed possible. If you have a quick, smooth trigger pull, the fast doubles will come automatically.

It is easy to teach in person, not so much by written word. Good luck. You can learn to do what you want, you just have to do the work.

[Firemedic]

I'm in the process of getting used to the trigger of my CM9. I'm a Glock shooter. I'm consistently a little low left. I think it's my head angle. I'm slowly getting used to the sight picture. I added a Pachmyr grip and that gave me a fuller hand which helped accuracy. Double tap with Glock is a natural, with Kahr, not so much. I guess that's part of the break in time with Kahr pistols. Practice helps the pistol and shooter loosen up and work together.

I'm also low/left with my PM9. I learned not to shoot with the dot right over the bar and have a small gap between the two which works for me. As long as I keep practicing this way, it will be muscle memory when I shoot.

[Redstate]

To shoot a Kahr pistol well you need to work the trigger like you would a double action revolver. Double action revolvers can be shot very fast and accurate.
...
...

Agreed. Ask Jerry Miculek about double action revolvers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTHc4H_i8DY

[muggsy]

I can clear and empty my CM9 in under three seconds. How fast do you have to be?

[Photoman]

...and with only six rounds, do you really want to be fast?

[ripley16]

I don't have a problem with the sights, I really like them and line them up very quickly. It's the trigger finger exodus between shots that's throwing me off.

Should I try keeping the trigger fully held back until ready to fire again, then do a quick release and press? or get off the trigger until ready to fire then do a full press? or actually try to take up some of the trigger as I reacquire my sights?

Sounds odd but the smooth, light, non-stacking qualities of the trigger make that last option seem a more delicate operation than, say, my M&P45 where I can bring it in to the breaking point until ready to give it a click to fire.
This;
"or get off the trigger until ready to fire then do a full press?"

[McE]

...and with only six rounds, do you really want to be fast?

Yes?

[muggsy]

I reset the trigger while the gun is still in recoil. As soon as I reacquire the sight picture I begin the next trigger press.You can be just as quick with a Kahr pistol as any other.

[b4uqzme]

Yes?

Good answer. :)

[McE]

I can clear and empty my CM9 in under three seconds. How fast do you have to be?

Faster, with acquiring different targets. A mag dump into one target is going to sound a lot like excessive force.

[Antarius]

Newsflash: Unless you make sure the person you're shooting is white, or there is video of you being actively shot at, you're going to have the media out for your head saying it was excessive force.

Bottom line, shoot when you need to - to survive. Not a moment before, not a moment after; And shoot until you are safe.

Deal with the cards you're dealt after the fact -- but make sure you survive.

[muggsy]

I continue to shoot until the threat is over. Be that one shot or a dozen. I don't give a damn about the media or the perp. I care about lovable old Muggsy. I got to be an old man by not screwing with any old men.

[Antarius]

I continue to shoot until the threat is over. Be that one shot or a dozen. I don't give a damn about the media or the perp. I care about lovable old Muggsy. I got to be an old man by not screwing with any old men.

Exactly. Protect yourself and your family lawfully, and with Xtreme Prejudice if it
comes to that point. We all hope it never does -- but make sure you win if it does. There is no second place.

[b4uqzme]

I've heard a lot lately questioning why the Ferguson cop shot so many times. What was he supposed to do? Shoot once and check to see if it worked...then shoot again...check again...and repeat? I'd rather shoot one too many vs. one too few. Just sayin'.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ wow...just realized how far off track we got on this one. ;)

[McE]

Anyway, I got a lot of good info nonetheless through the grain of internet-tough-guy-salt. I never thought about that "embracing the spread" comment, so that was definitely a new thing to consider on my part.

I will keep practicing with my PM9 and accept that I will never be quite as fast as I can be with a different gun. To be fair, I had a Sig P239 DAK which I also couldn't get as fast as I wanted on, but I still carried it confidently which I will do the same with the PM9.

Maybe down the line Kahr will further enhance the trigger on the models with external safeties because the rationale that the long trigger pull being the safety is redundant.

[b4uqzme]

...

Maybe down the line Kahr will further enhance the trigger on the models with external safeties because the rationale that the long trigger pull being the safety is redundant.

Actually they already do.

[McE]

Enhance, further than the current enhanced, which I have.

[marcinstl]

here, try this-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4OE78spknk
bump firing a revolver, that girl's got talent.

[muggsy]

Faster, with acquiring different targets. A mag dump into one target is going to sound a lot like excessive force.

There's no such thing as excessive force in a gun fight. You shoot until your assailant can no longer return fire.

[muggsy]

Some guns, by design, are very quick to shoot. The Kahr trigger design does not lend itself to really fast shots, or at least not as fast as possible with other brands of pistol. This is just a fact. For example, Walther in particular has aimed at producing a quick trigger, (as found on the P99 QA and current PPQ). Don't compare your Kahr with your other guns.

My advice would be to forget about "shooting to the reset". Retrain your finger to "full stroke" the trigger. The only way I can shoot a Kahr fast is to break a rule and put my finger fully on the trigger, (not the pad) and muscle the trigger back. I'm less accurate, but faster. About the best I can do is a 6" group at 7 yards. When I practice, I shoot 4 groups of two, attempting to shoot each group a tiny bit quicker than the previous. However, my goal is to get as fast as possible with a Kahr, which is not as fast as with most other pistols.

Me thinks that people are far too concerned about trigger reset. How many of you think that you are going to hear the click or feel the reset in a gun fight? There is no longer reset than that found on a S&W revolver. Let's see how well Jerry does with a long trigger reset. Get some! I rest my case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

[bugs]

practice your basics during range time, 1.front sight,front sight,front sight 2. trigger press, not squeeze (think military rifle trigger) after many rds. down range your finger will start to feel "take up"until the striker release; the more cycles your finger learns = less time between starting "take up" and release (controlled pairs will become true double taps).
3.start gripping with your support hand as hard as you can (think squeezing bad guys cahones; we WILL fight dirty) this will be the hardest drill to learn because we naturally want to use "strong hand"; maintain your normal freestyle grip pressure w/strong hand but squeeze like the b'jesus !

this will work if given the reps.(many,many, reps)
4. end your range time on a positive note; ie: do a drill you do really good. this will help give you confidence in your ability and the desire to return and improve in other drills.

NRA LIFER
IDPA BELEIVER