New CW380 - Help!

[ky1911]

Just bought a new CW380 from Bud's on Black Friday - been wanting one for a while and the price was insane. I'm not new to handguns and not new to Kahrs, but I have an odd problem that I've never encountered and need some feedback.

When dry firing the CW380 without a magazine inserted or with an EMPTY magazine seated, the handgun dry fires fine and you can hear/feel the striker engage (very similar click and feel to my CW9). However, when I dry fire with a loaded magazine inserted [not chambered] the striker is hitting the top round in the magazine and nudging it forward. It is hitting with so much force that it is 1) leaving a mark on the rear of the case rim; 2) is moving the round 1/3 of the way forward on the magazine follower, so much so that the mag will not drop free and you have to force it out; and 3) is causing bullet setback in the top-most round. I have not live fired the handgun and am now afraid to do so. I've never encountered this problem with any handgun. When this occurs it also does not feel or sound as if the striker is fully engaging - sort of a muffled 'click.'

I removed the magazine and flipped the handgun over to view the internals through the magwell. When pulling the trigger I can see the striker slam forward (whatever the piece of the striker is that contacts the sear). This is the piece hitting the next round in the magazine.

Anyone else encounter this? Doesn't seem at all right.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

[ulflyer]

I have a nearly new CW380 but never thought about dry firing with a loaded mag. Frankly, don't see any reason for it. I suggest you jack the bullets in/out and if that works ok, go shoot it. If you have one in the chamber, I don't see how there can be any harm in firing it. Either it works or it don't.
Let us know what happens.

[topgun1953]

My P380 doesn't do that. If you could get another mag from someone you possibly determine if the mag is the problem. It seems to me that the cartridge is sitting too high, allowing the rear tab of the striker to strike it.

I dry fire all the time with a snap cap in the chamber and one in the mag.

[ky1911]

I've tried the mag that came with it as well as an identical OEM Kahr magazine bought new separately. I thought perhaps one was deformed or had widened feed lips, but it happens identically with both magazines.

[ky1911]

Here's a quick video I made describing and showing the problem.

http://youtu.be/xSyaHSQhocA

[addictedhealer]

Why dry fire with loaded mag inserted? Seem like a ND waiting to happen.

[ky1911]

How about you help answer the question?

[b4uqzme]

It does seem a bit like you are trying to manufacture a problem. FWIW it's not uncommon for me to remove a loaded mag from my MK9 and find the top cartridge bumped forward a tad just like in your video. It hasn't seemed to cause any problem. I didn't try the dry firing loaded thing...nor will I. Sorry I cannot be of more help. Just be safe...OK?

[SlowBurn]

I'd say the concern is that during actual fire, the striker might damage the round in the mag before it's chambered. But possibly a round in the chamber stops the forward motion of the striker when the firing pin hits it before the lower part reaches the round in the mag, which would make it a non issue.

I would want to test it out with snap caps, one in the chamber and one in the mag, to see if the same thing happens. Or just take it to the range and shoot it.

I also get a little queasy watching the gun dry fired with a round in the mag.

[ky1911]

Thanks for the feedback. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to fire it at the range. And I do appreciate your safety comments.

[TheLastDaze]

Why dry fire with loaded mag inserted? Seem like a ND waiting to happen.

no doubt... I was absolutely blown away reading this.......

its probably an issue no one can directly answer as I'm sure none of us have loaded a gun to dry fire it.... or perhaps I'm just speaking for myself....

just sayin

[gb6491]

Just bought a new CW380 from Bud's on Black Friday - been wanting one for a while and the price was insane. I'm not new to handguns and not new to Kahrs, but I have an odd problem that I've never encountered and need some feedback.

When dry firing the CW380 without a magazine inserted or with an EMPTY magazine seated, the handgun dry fires fine and you can hear/feel the striker engage (very similar click and feel to my CW9). However, when I dry fire with a loaded magazine inserted [not chambered] the striker is hitting the top round in the magazine and nudging it forward. It is hitting with so much force that it is 1) leaving a mark on the rear of the case rim; 2) is moving the round 1/3 of the way forward on the magazine follower, so much so that the mag will not drop free and you have to force it out; and 3) is causing bullet setback in the top-most round. I have not live fired the handgun and am now afraid to do so. I've never encountered this problem with any handgun. When this occurs it also does not feel or sound as if the striker is fully engaging - sort of a muffled 'click.'

I removed the magazine and flipped the handgun over to view the internals through the magwell. When pulling the trigger I can see the striker slam forward (whatever the piece of the striker is that contacts the sear). This is the piece hitting the next round in the magazine.

Anyone else encounter this? Doesn't seem at all right.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
I checked this on my P380 and found that the striker did hit the top round (in this case a snap cap) in the magazine with enough force that it "2) is moving the round 1/3 of the way forward on the magazine follower,...".

I must say that I haven't had any light strikes with my P380 since replacing the cocking cam, still I find this development a bit disconcerting.
I don't think it's much of a reach to believe that the striker hitting the top round in the magazine might contribute to a light strike.
Then again, I found this only happened with the top round seated fully to the rear of the magazine. If you consider that the top round's position in the magazine changes with recoil, slide movement, rounds feeding, even inserting the magazine can change the position, I wonder how likely this is to cause an issue. It might even be that the striker isn't hitting the top round until after it's already popped the primer of a chambered round.

FWIW I've modified another striker I had on hand to preclude it from hitting the top round in the magazine when there's a round in the chamber (see my thought above about the cap being popped before the top round is hit). It will still move the the top round (if seated all the way to the rear) about an 1/8 of an inch if the pistol is dry fired, but I can live with that (won't be dry firing with a loaded magazine in the gun). I've shot about 50 rounds using the modified striker and have had no issues. Yeah, I love to tinker:madgrin:

Regards,
Greg

[muggsy]

Someone please help me out here. I've read my owners manual from cover to cover and nowhere in it can I find anything about dry firing a Kahr pistol with a loaded magazine in place. Maybe it's just me, but I find that a very odd thing to do and well outside of the parameters of normal operation of any firearm. I have also found that if I use my Kahr pistol to hammer nails that it mars the finish. Is this normal, or should I contact Kahr Service for an RA# and a prepaid mailing label? :rolleyes:

[topgun1953]

Someone please help me out here. I've read my owners manual from cover to cover and nowhere in it can I find anything about dry firing a Kahr pistol with a loaded magazine in place. Maybe it's just me, but I find that a very odd thing to do and well outside of the parameters of normal operation of any firearm. I have also found that if I use my Kahr pistol to hammer nails that it mars the finish. Is this normal, or should I contact Kahr Service for an RA# and a prepaid mailing label? :rolleyes:
If the Kahr drives the nail into the wood, then keep hammering the Fokker like you stole it...or something like that! ;)

[gb6491]

Someone please help me out here. I've read my owners manual from cover to cover and nowhere in it can I find anything about dry firing a Kahr pistol with a loaded magazine in place. Maybe it's just me, but I find that a very odd thing to do and well outside of the parameters of normal operation of any firearm. I have also found that if I use my Kahr pistol to hammer nails that it mars the finish. Is this normal, or should I contact Kahr Service for an RA# and a prepaid mailing label? :rolleyes:
It's not about dry firing with a loaded magazine in place (that's just how the OP found it).
The issue to me is that the striker on his 380 and my P380 will hit the top round of a loaded magazine (if positioned fully to the rear of the magazine) with enough force to send it forward about a third of it's length. Using snap caps, I verified this will happen even with a round (again a snap cap) in the chamber. This makes me wonder if this could possibly (or not) cause a light strike. Hammer away.
Regards,
Greg

[b4uqzme]

It's just amazing how you guys find some of these things. Makes me wonder what I'm missing for just handling a firearm like a firearm. ;)

[muggsy]

It's another one of those damn Kahr design flaws. What was Justin Moon thinking? You couldn't give me Kahr pistol as a gift, except possibly an MK9. My birthday is next week, but there's no rush. :)

[muggsy]

I just tried dry firing my Kahr pistol with one in the chamber and the damn thing went off! Is this another case of a Kahr design flaw? Should have worn ear protection. Wife's upset about losing the cat. :) (I'm sorry. Sometimes I just can't stop myself.)

[muggsy]

If the Kahr drives the nail into the wood, then keep hammering the Fokker like you stole it...or something like that! ;)

Sounds like good advice. :)

[ulflyer]

It's not about dry firing with a loaded magazine in place (that's just how the OP found it).
The issue to me is that the striker on his 380 and my P380 will hit the top round of a loaded magazine (if positioned fully to the rear of the magazine) with enough force to send it forward about a third of it's length. Using snap caps, I verified this will happen even with a round (again a snap cap) in the chamber. This makes me wonder if this could possibly (or not) cause a light strike. Hammer away.
Regards,
Greg

Maybe they all do it...that is, push the next round forward a bit. Anytime I've dropped
my mag, with one in the chamber, the top round is slightly pushed forward. Has not caused any light strikes or misfires so far. In fact, mentioned this to a buddy the other day as we were plinking and he said his little compact Kimber (1911 type) does the same.

[erichard]

Maybe they all do it...that is, push the next round forward a bit. Anytime I've dropped
my mag, with one in the chamber, the top round is slightly pushed forward. Has not caused any light strikes or misfires so far. In fact, mentioned this to a buddy the other day as we were plinking and he said his little compact Kimber (1911 type) does the same.

I tried it on mine, and after dropping the mag out, I noticed the top bullet was pulled forward maybe an eighth of an inch after dry firing. It's possible that it serves a purpose by 'unlocking' the top two rounds. The rear of the top two bullets tend to kind of lock together by the rear of the casings as the bullets are angled upward and the mag spring is pushing hard upwards. By getting that top bullet forward a little and 'unlocking' them from each other maybe it allows the slide to feed the top round more easily out of the mag into the chamber when it's time to cycle that round. Just a theory.

I used to think the bullet got pulled forward by drag from the bullet before it, but this thread has shed light that it doesn't require drag from a prior bullet to pull the bullet forward (because there was no prior bullet in dry firing). I'm not clear on the mechanism that causes this, if it's just the slap on the-gun-as-a-whole from the striker going forward and coming to a quick stand still or what (doesn't seem like anything is physically touching and pushing the bullet forward).

[gb6491]

Maybe they all do it...that is, push the next round forward a bit. Anytime I've dropped
my mag, with one in the chamber, the top round is slightly pushed forward. Has not caused any light strikes or misfires so far. In fact, mentioned this to a buddy the other day as we were plinking and he said his little compact Kimber (1911 type) does the same.
Thanks for the input ulflyer.
As I mentioned earlier, "If you consider that the top round's position in the magazine changes with recoil, slide movement, rounds feeding, even inserting the magazine can change the position,...". It's pretty common to see that the top round has slid forward if you drop the magazine once the pistol has operated.
I also mentioned that " I wonder how likely this is to cause an issue. It might even be that the striker isn't hitting the top round until after it's already popped the primer of a chambered round." I should add that the potential for this causing an issue is probably only present after chambering a round then topping off the magazine.
Regards,
Greg

[SlowBurn]

I just tried dry firing my Kahr pistol with one in the chamber and the damn thing went off! Is this another case of a Kahr design flaw? Should have worn ear protection. Wife's upset about losing the cat. :) (I'm sorry. Sometimes I just can't stop myself.)

Where's the "like button" when you need it?

[SlowBurn]

I checked this on my P380 and found that the striker did hit the top round (in this case a snap cap) in the magazine with enough force that it "2) is moving the round 1/3 of the way forward on the magazine follower,...".

I must say that I haven't had any light strikes with my P380 since replacing the cocking cam, still I find this development a bit disconcerting.
I don't think it's much of a reach to believe that the striker hitting the top round in the magazine might contribute to a light strike.
Then again, I found this only happened with the top round seated fully to the rear of the magazine. If you consider that the top round's position in the magazine changes with recoil, slide movement, rounds feeding, even inserting the magazine can change the position, I wonder how likely this is to cause an issue. It might even be that the striker isn't hitting the top round until after it's already popped the primer of a chambered round.

FWIW I've modified another striker I had on hand to preclude it from hitting the top round in the magazine when there's a round in the chamber (see my thought above about the cap being popped before the top round is hit). It will still move the the top round (if seated all the way to the rear) about an 1/8 of an inch if the pistol is dry fired, but I can live with that (won't be dry firing with a loaded magazine in the gun). I've shot about 50 rounds using the modified striker and have had no issues. Yeah, I love to tinker:madgrin:

Regards,
Greg

Greg, did you notice any actual damage to a top round which had been moved forward by the striker?

[muggsy]

I'm sorry, but if the gun goes bang every time I pull the trigger I'm not really concerned about quirks like this. A very wise sheep herder once told me to just shoot the fokker like I stole it and I've taken his words to heart. Another wise old man once told me that if you go looking for trouble you're sure to find it. He had a lot on the ball, too. Thanks, dad.

[gb6491]

Greg, did you notice any actual damage to a top round which had been moved forward by the striker?
I wouldn't call it damage, but it does leave a mark on the case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkJQpz9LlKY
Regards,
Greg

[Buzzard45]

:confused: a tidbit of info that seems to have been overlooked-"and 3) is causing bullet setback in the top-most round."
is anyone else concerned about this? i know my four 45s all push the next round a bit, but not nearly enough force to cause set back. just askin`:confused:

[Photoman]

Very confusing thread!

For just about every semi-auto pistol out there, when you close the slide, the top round in the mag will move forward just a bit due to the the bullet nose dragging on the bottom of the slide. Is this what you guys are talking about? I can't imagine how the striker tip could push the bullet in the mag forward when the slide is in battery.

[SlowBurn]

I wouldn't call it damage, but it does leave a mark on the case:
Regards,
Greg
I see what you mean. Thanks for the vid. I'm going to check mine out.

[SlowBurn]

Very confusing thread!

For just about every semi-auto pistol out there, when you close the slide, the top round in the mag will move forward just a bit due to the the bullet nose dragging on the bottom of the slide. Is this what you guys are talking about? I can't imagine how the striker tip could push the bullet in the mag forward when the slide is in battery.

its not the firing pin. I think they're talking about the lower portion of the striker which protrudes down and is drawn back by the cocking mechanism as the trigger is pulled, then released. Evidently when released that lower portion of the striker springs forward far enough to hit the bullet in the mag and push it forward, at least in dry fire. I suppose it might not do it in live fire because the round would be the one auto loaded into the chamber. But I'm gonna look at mine and see.

[BEARDOG]

Very confusing thread!

For just about every semi-auto pistol out there, when you close the slide, the top round in the mag will move forward just a bit due to the the bullet nose dragging on the bottom of the slide. Is this what you guys are talking about? I can't imagine how the striker tip could push the bullet in the mag forward when the slide is in battery.

No. Watch Greg's video and you will be able to see what this thread is talking about clearer then anyone can describe in words.

[BEARDOG]

My CW380 is doing the exact same thing as what Greg shows in the video.

The take away from this IMO is... When the trigger is pulled the striker is hitting the top round in the mag with enough force that it knocks the top cartridge forward so that it is 1/3 to 1/2 wayout of the feed lips.

This has to be reducing the amount of force the striker/spring has to hit the chambered round with and "could" cause a light strike/no fire situation. The OP is also reporting it is causing bullet setback.

I agree it goes against all normal safety practices to dry fire with a loaded mag.
But as a test it is proof of a valid concern, if for no other reason reliability. I just tried this test with my other caliber Kahrs both are also C series 9mm and .45 and they DO NOT do this.

My CW380 has run perfectly so far (~300ish rds) And as with all my carry guns I load it +1 and always make sure the top round, and all rounds are firmly seated to the rear of the mag with a few firm slaps into my palm.
But with this new info, and the testing I have done I am of the opinion that it maybe better to load my CW380 with the top round in the mag seated slightly forward so that the striker doesn't hit the top round as hard. But I need go to the range and test this theory out to check that it doesn't cause feeding issues.

[muggsy]

Did any of you stop to think that when the striker contacts the primer of a loaded round that the forward travel of the striker might be a bit shorter that when there isn't a round in the chamber. That could account for the forward movement of a round in the magazine when the chamber is empty. As long as my gun goes bang and cycles properly when a round is fired I'm personally a not going to worry about it. If if ain't broke, don't fix it. Just shoot the fokker like you stole it.

[BEARDOG]

I checked this on my P380 and found that the striker did hit the top round (in this case a snap cap) in the magazine with enough force that it "2) is moving the round 1/3 of the way forward on the magazine follower,...".

I must say that I haven't had any light strikes with my P380 since replacing the cocking cam, still I find this development a bit disconcerting.
I don't think it's much of a reach to believe that the striker hitting the top round in the magazine might contribute to a light strike.
Then again, I found this only happened with the top round seated fully to the rear of the magazine. If you consider that the top round's position in the magazine changes with recoil, slide movement, rounds feeding, even inserting the magazine can change the position, I wonder how likely this is to cause an issue. It might even be that the striker isn't hitting the top round until after it's already popped the primer of a chambered round.

FWIW I've modified another striker I had on hand to preclude it from hitting the top round in the magazine when there's a round in the chamber (see my thought above about the cap being popped before the top round is hit). It will still move the the top round (if seated all the way to the rear) about an 1/8 of an inch if the pistol is dry fired, but I can live with that (won't be dry firing with a loaded magazine in the gun). I've shot about 50 rounds using the modified striker and have had no issues. Yeah, I love to tinker:madgrin:

Regards,
Greg

Greg inquiring minds want to know what mod you made?

I am guessing that you ground back the front/face of the striker "follower" (part that engages the cocking cam.) If that is what you did, how much did you remove? Did it change the break of the trigger? Thanks!

[muggsy]

It isn't necessary to make any modifications to Kahr Pistols. Kahr pistols were CAD designed by mechanical engineers. They have been extensively tested and there are literally thousands in daily use that work just fine without any modifications what-so-ever. Pretend that your kahr is a sore Richard and stop fokking with it. No one but a certified gunsmith should ever make any modification to the firing mechanism of any firearm.

[SlowBurn]

Did any of you stop to think that when the striker contacts the primer of a loaded round that the forward travel of the striker might be a bit shorter that when there isn't a round in the chamber. That could account for the forward movement of a round in the magazine when the chamber is empty. As long as my gun goes bang and cycles properly when a round is fired I'm personally a not going to worry about it. If if ain't broke, don't fix it. Just shoot the fokker like you stole it.

Greg's video shows it happens even if there's a snap cap in the chamber. Still I'm going with your plan. Here's why:

I just checked mine out at an indoor range over lunch. Same thing happened when dry fired with a round in the mag - the round in the mag is shoved way forward. BUT when actually firing, NOTHING. The top round in the mag is only very slightly forward, but more important there's no evidence whatsoever that the round now in the chamber was hit by the striker before it went in. Not a scratch. Nothing. Tried 4 times, with 2 different mags just to be sure. I would have videoed, but I didn't have anything to hold the camera and I need 2 hands to extract a round from the chamber.

I don't know if that means the top round gets up into the chamber before the striker gets to it, or what. But I couldn't see any indication that the striker hits anything its not supposed to when the gun is actually fired.

[Busted Knuckle]

sorry didn't read the whole thread
fully rack the slide b4 inserting a mag (loaded or unloaded)
and this "issue" will cease to exist

Dan T @ the BKG