Would a CW380 with self defense HP ammo penetrate a car windshield?

[pr42]

I know it probably depends on angle etc, but I'm just curious... what would happen to self defense HP rounds like Hornady Critical Defense 380? Would they penetrate at all? Or just go "squish" and cause the windshield to crack? Or penetrate through to the interior, but be too deformed to do much damage? Let's assume a shot from someone standing in front of a car, from 10-20 feet away. Anybody want to take a guess what would happen?

This is 380 and self-defense ammo specific, of course larger calibers and other types of ammo would have no problem. Just wondering about what a lot of us carry everyday for personal defense, which is a CW380 for me.

[Whaleman]

Not sure but I would bet $20.00 it would. Dan

[DavidS]

Not many situations where 'defense' ammunition would need to penetrate a windshield.

[pr42]

Not many situations where 'defense' ammunition would need to penetrate a windshield.

I know. It's just a mind experiment. Haven't we all wondered about this sort of thing? I'm sure those of us who are thoughtful enough to carry a gun and a particular ammo also wonder about the outer limits of its capabilities, that's all.

[ReManG]

I have no idea why people believe there is such a gulf between "big" pistol calibers like 9mm, .40 and .45 vs the "small" .380 In reality, it may or may not penetrate the windshield, but the same goes for the "big" calibers... The real gulf is most centerfire rifle rounds or shotgun rounds vs almost all handgun rounds... big deficit on the handgun rounds.

For whatever reason you would need to shoot a windshield defensively, just starring up the glass to without penetrating the windshield would still be to your advantage, take the enemies eyes away (starred windshield and/or glass shards in the eyes) and you can more than likely own the situation, if you can get out of the way of the moving vehicle in time.... The gun and particular ammo are not the limiting factor, your resolve is...

[Rob007]

YouTube vid demo shows penetration & no deflection of 380 round


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[muggsy]

I just went out and put three through my mother-in-laws windshield. Unfortunately she wasn't in the car at the time. Went right through. :)

[pr42]

YouTube vid demo shows penetration & no deflection of 380 round

Ok, I assume you're talking about this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhfKSXWLNxg

They were using FMJ bullets for that test. I would expect those to have no problem, because they are solid, and well-known to penetrate a lot more than HP. I was curious about self-defense HP bullets, of the type that a lot of us (including me) carry in our .380. Those are made to deform, so it's an open question how they would do with a windshield. For example, one of the comments on that video above is as follows:


After thirty years in Law Enforcement I can tell you I have seen a lot of cases where 380s, 38 specials and even 45s from comanders have bounced off windshields. In all these cases the shooter used hollow points and not FMJs. The lesson I took away from these cases is that you need the heavest FMJs you can get if you are carrying a short barrel, low velocity, pistol and think you might have to shoot through anything to hit your target. In most civilian CCH shotings this is not the case. Most shootings are close up with nothing in between. But, as my old instructor use to say, plan for the worst and hope for the best. My first two rounds are HP the rest are all FMJFP.

I don't want this thread to be interpreted as "intent". I certainly have no intention of shooting at a car windshield with my CW380. As someone pointed out, that's quite an unlikely scenario given the purpose of the gun - self defense. But like I said earlier, it's just an interesting mind experiment. I'm sure we all think about the outer limits of what our guns and ammo can do. Also, in the real world, despite the best of intentions, you just never know what situation you might encounter one day. Reality has a way of messing with the most tidy plans and expectations. So it's best to know your equipment's capabilities and limits, especially when your life may literally depend on it.

[Longitude Zero]

It would depend upon the angle of incidence and distance. I have seen every common caliber penetrate AND I have seen every common caliber glance off. HP's are by definition more prone to glance off.

[erichard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tujq9nMCR0
Start at 3:52 mark

The above video, starting at 3:52, compares Lehigh Defense XP 380 to Hornady Critical Defense 380 (labeled Brand X often but noted to be "Critical Duty" in one slide. There is only Hornady Critical Defense in 380 though) going through a windshield and denim into ballistic gel. They both penetrate although the Hornady round separates the jacket off and only penetrates 7 inches, which while good considering the windshield, doesn't match the 14 inches by the XP round, which also has the wider permanent wound cavity to boot. Anyhow, your question isn't about Lehigh, but the video does establish the 380 in HD hollow points will penetrate a windshield, though not to FBI standards. Perhaps a Hydra Shock would do it to 12 inches of gel after the windshield. XP does work, but question is, does it cycle in your gun.

One thing interesting to remember regarding the XP round is that the 380 wound channel is actually wider than the maximum size of a 9mm, .40, or .45 caliber expanded hollow point which basically go up to about a 3/4 inch diameter, while the .380 XP wound channel is over an inch wide. (As a side note, what's really impressive is the 2 inch wide wound channel of a .45 XP rounds, and these wide wound channels are going over 9-12 inches in depth, followed by several inches of a narrower wound channel, totaling over 18 inches altogether... a bit further than FBI standards.)


I know it probably depends on angle etc, but I'm just curious... what would happen to self defense HP rounds like Hornady Critical Defense 380? Would they penetrate at all? Or just go "squish" and cause the windshield to crack? Or penetrate through to the interior, but be too deformed to do much damage? Let's assume a shot from someone standing in front of a car, from 10-20 feet away. Anybody want to take a guess what would happen?

This is 380 and self-defense ammo specific, of course larger calibers and other types of ammo would have no problem. Just wondering about what a lot of us carry everyday for personal defense, which is a CW380 for me.

[pr42]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tujq9nMCR0
Start at 3:52 mark

The above video, starting at 3:52, compares Lehigh Defense XP 380 to Hornady Critical Defense 380 (labeled Brand X often but noted to be "Critical Duty" in one slide. There is only Hornady Critical Defense in 380 though) going through a windshield and denim into ballistic gel. They both penetrate although the Hornady round separates the jacket off and only penetrates 7 inches, which while good considering the windshield, doesn't match the 14 inches by the XP round, which also has the wider permanent wound cavity to boot. Anyhow, your question isn't about Lehigh, but the video does establish the 380 in HD hollow points will penetrate a windshield, though not to FBI standards. Perhaps a Hydra Shock would do it to 12 inches of gel after the windshield. XP does work, but question is, does it cycle in your gun.

One thing interesting to remember regarding the XP round is that the 380 wound channel is actually wider than the maximum size of a 9mm, .40, or .45 caliber expanded hollow point which basically go up to about a 3/4 inch diameter, while the .380 XP wound channel is over an inch wide. (As a side note, what's really impressive is the 2 inch wide wound channel of a .45 XP rounds, and these wide wound channels are going over 9-12 inches in depth, followed by several inches of a narrower wound channel, totaling over 18 inches altogether... a bit further than FBI standards.)

Thanks, that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

So, is the Lehigh Defense XP 380 the new wunderkind of 380 defense ammo? What's the catch? There's always a catch, isn't there?

[DavidR]

Thanks, that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

So, is the Lehigh Defense XP 380 the new wunderkind of 380 defense ammo? What's the catch? There's always a catch, isn't there?

The catch is they caution against using it with a Kahr 380. I had return to battery failures when I used it with my CW380.

[marshal kane]

Yes, angle is important. Distance, velocity, and type of bullet and weight is important too.

[ripley16]

That is pretty impressive results in the video above. I didn't think a .380 would perform that well. The "through the windshield" test is one that most LE agencies reguire as it is used in both offensive as well as defensive situations. Stopping a driver is one use but shooting from inside the car at a aggressor is the other reguirement and is the reason many people who carry in civilian life desire a round that penetrates a windshield.

Good question. Good thread. Good info.

[erichard]

Thanks, that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

So, is the Lehigh Defense XP 380 the new wunderkind of 380 defense ammo? What's the catch? There's always a catch, isn't there?

Read the threads on the XP round for more info, but in short, the Kahr 380 was the one gun that had some problems cycling the round, though it seemed to handle them well if placed lower in the magazine. The problem I think is the steep feed ramp combined with a lot of resistance for going forward for the top rounds in the magazine (due to max spring pressure) combined with the squarish tip of the XP round. I hadn't heard about failure to return to battery, but some of my rounds got hung up on the feed ramp (bullets in the lower four slots of the magazine didn't seem to have this issue, so I do use the XP in the lower four slots of the mag as well as one in the chamber.)

The beauty of these rounds is, apart from what was already mentioned, that they do not depend on expansion for their devastating effect, which is important because, one, hollow points are known to clog with clothing and not expand, and, two, once they do expand, the bullet slows down, inhibiting further penetration due to friction/resistance. The XP simply barrels through, and generally speaking, the bullet looks almost like new when you pry it out of the target. So this lets it go through barriers, etc. and then still have a large wound cavity when going through tissue (whereas a plugged hollow point would act like an FMJ, which leaves a very narrow permanent wound cavity). Importantly, it meets all the limits of the FBI requirements, penetrating not too far, not too short while still leaving a big hole, one that compares to larger caliber hollow points.

[pr42]

Read the threads on the XP round for more info, but in short, the Kahr 380 was the one gun that had some problems cycling the round, though it seemed to handle them well if placed lower in the magazine. The problem I think is the steep feed ramp combined with a lot of resistance for going forward for the top rounds in the magazine (due to max spring pressure) combined with the squarish tip of the XP round. I hadn't heard about failure to return to battery, but some of my rounds got hung up on the feed ramp (bullets in the lower four slots of the magazine didn't seem to have this issue, so I do use the XP in the lower four slots of the mag as well as one in the chamber.)

The beauty of these rounds is, apart from what was already mentioned, that they do not depend on expansion for their devastating effect, which is important because, one, hollow points are known to clog with clothing and not expand, and, two, once they do expand, the bullet slows down, inhibiting further penetration due to friction/resistance. The XP simply barrels through, and generally speaking, the bullet looks almost like new when you pry it out of the target. So this lets it go through barriers, etc. and then still have a large wound cavity when going through tissue (whereas a plugged hollow point would act like an FMJ, which leaves a very narrow permanent wound cavity). Importantly, it meets all the limits of the FBI requirements, penetrating not too far, not too short while still leaving a big hole, one that compares to larger caliber hollow points.

Wow, that sounds revolutionary. Shame it won't work reliably in my CW380. I won't carry anything that has qualifiers like "put it lower in the magazine", it has to work every time otherwise I can't trust it. Of course that's not a bad reflection on the XP, or the CW380 for that matter. Everything has compromise of some sort or other built in. And often you can have two excellent products, but for whatever reason they just aren't compatible. In the case of the steep feed ramp on the CW380, I'm sure Kahr had their reasons for doing it that way.

So is the XP now seen as the new king of self defense ammo, as long as your gun can cycle it reliably? How about in other calibers like 9mm? My other gun is a Springfield XD-S 3.3 9mm.

[erichard]

I think in general the bigger calibers and more full sized guns cycle various rounds more reliably, and I would expect that to apply to Lehigh stuff as well. I have the XP round in 9mm for my Glock 17, which of course cycles most anything. There are equally interesting bullets at Lehigh. Look at their controlled fracturing (CF) bullet, which does cycle in the CW380, and their maximum expansion bullets. Their penetration tends to be a little shorter due to their increased resistance upon hitting tissue, but in the +p versions, they are getting 15 inches of penetration in the CF rounds (speaking calibers above 380). The maximum expansion bullets look impressive, but their penetration is too short for me. They'd be good if you lived in an apartment complex and wanted low penetration with maximum damage, though.

As an aside, Lehigh does have a sale going on now till December 8th. Enter "FRIDAY" in the coupon box during checkout for the discount. I think that's as good a sale as they have. Some stuff is out of stock, but I just placed an order from them today because the .40 caliber XP just came in stock. I like the XP and +P CF in 9, 40 and 45 (and 380, but no +P is available yet in 380). $5 flat rate shipping which is excellent. Bullets are very expensive, but if it makes your gun a caliber better in theory, then it's worth it for personal defense ammo (not range ammo obviously). It really makes the 380 a viable round.

Check out the youtube videos and the videos on Lehigh's site under "Library"

(not affiliated with them)

BTW, agree with reliability being important, so you need to test it out in your gun. You can get combo packs of CF and XP or ME bullets, although they don't offer +P versions in the combo packs. Those are good for testing the waters. Underwood has started making ammo with Lehigh's bullets too.

[muggsy]

I'm not a big proponent of the FBI standards. I'm more concerned with under penetration than I am over penetration. Most hollow points perform just like ball ammunition when the cavity becomes plugged with cloth. I've never had a block of ballistic gel try to attack me and I don't expect to have to shoot an assailant through a cinder block wall or a windshield. Multiple hit center mass is usually my goal. Up close and personal is how I like it. :)

[Armybrat]

I'm not a big proponent of the FBI standards. I'm more concerned with under penetration than I am over penetration. Most hollow points perform just like ball ammunition when the cavity becomes plugged with cloth. I've never had a block of ballistic gel try to attack me and I don't expect to have to shoot an assailant through a cinder block wall or a windshield. Multiple hit center mass is usually my goal. Up close and personal is how I like it. :)

Same here, except not up too close.