Sig 250

[marcinstl]

I was just wondering if anybody has or has shot a Sig 250? does the trigger compare to a Kahr?

[ScottM]

I have a gen-2 Sig P250 subcompact in .45 and love it. Solid build quality, great balance, highly visible sights and no problems feeding during its break-in period. Fantastic trigger too, IF (and this is a big IF) you are experienced with revolvers. See, the P250 has a DAO hammer that involves a long draw, but the break is clean with absolutely no stacking like a revolver has. In fact, it's as smooth as the first shot out of my Beretta 92FS, with just a little longer draw. I'm able to shoot 1" centers, one-handed, at 20' with mine. The P250 is double-strike capable.

But that's not exactly what you asked. I have a CM45 as well, and the triggers are totally different other than they're both very smooth. Striker vs. Hammer. Pseudo SA vs. DAO. My CM45 is smaller and 1/3 lb lighter. The P250 is easier to grip, sight and shoot.

[marcinstl]

on fun day at the range, I'll rent a S&W mdl.66. on serious days I practice with a CM or CW 9mm Kahr. to me, both have a long, smooth DA trigger pull. (to me, J-frames suck and Glocks are just to "Glocky"-- that explains a lot, huh?) I've shot some DA/SA pistols (Ruger P-89, Beretta 92) and I can see where the first DA shot is a "warning shot", before getting down to business with the following SA shots. so the P250 has a smooth trigger, as smooth and long as the Kahr, better than a Kel-Tec? I have to find one of these in a gun store and take a closer look. thanks.

[ScottM]

The P250 models can be found at great prices especially now that Sig is doing a name reboot with the P320, which is mostly a P250, just with striker fire. If you do buy a P250, avoid gen-1 models which had reliability problems and caused a couple agencies to cancel their orders. Get P250s with "Sig" stamped high on the frame, not in the middle of the grip. There are full frame, compact and subcompact option of multiple calibers. All are fantastic guns - even that "Nutnfancy" vlogger guy loves them.

[CPTKILLER]

$375 for a P250 Compact 9mm

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_28/products_id/69735/Sig+Sauer+250C-9-B+P250+Compact+15%2B1+9mm+3.9%22

$378 for a P250 in .380

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_28/products_id/69735/Sig+Sauer+250C-9-B+P250+Compact+15%2B1+9mm+3.9%22

[ScottM]

Nice, looks about right. I paid $355 plus tax for my NIB .45 SC at a gun show after a little haggling.

[marcinstl]

(a little off topic, sidebar for ScottM)
went to the range this morning and they didn't have a P250, I'll catch up with one at a gun store after the holidays, I have to see if the 25oz. weight is going to be worth it. anyway, while I was at the range and had some christmas money, I rented a .45. this is pure fantasy coming to life. H&K .45 Tactical. huge, heavy thing, biggest sights I've ever seen(and I could see them). knife thru butter DA pull. scary light SA pull. little recoil, no pain--nothing at all like a CW45. a box of 50 left the center of the target shot out. fun to shoot a gun that knows the job. I can't afford it and couldn't carry it, so the world is safe.

[O'Dell]

I looked at a 250 45 several years ago since I'm a SIG fan. To me the trigger pull seemed much longer than a Kahr, and that with the weight turned me off.

[ScottM]

I looked at a 250 45 several years ago since I'm a SIG fan. To me the trigger pull seemed much longer than a Kahr, and that with the weight turned me off.

Agreed, their subcompact is 30% heavier than Kahr's PM45/CM45 and all its dimensions are a little bigger too. A lot of people do carry it concealed in the winter OK but the reason why I bought a CM45 is because the latter is decidedly easier to carry. Sure hope it shoots nearly as well because my P250 is as pleasurable to fire as I'd hope for a sub-$400 pistol. I'll probably keep both.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ good insights Scott from someone who owns both. I've always been drawn to the P250 but have yet to try one.

[O'Dell]

(a little off topic, sidebar for ScottM)
went to the range this morning and they didn't have a P250, I'll catch up with one at a gun store after the holidays, I have to see if the 25oz. weight is going to be worth it. anyway, while I was at the range and had some christmas money, I rented a .45. this is pure fantasy coming to life. H&K .45 Tactical. huge, heavy thing, biggest sights I've ever seen(and I could see them). knife thru butter DA pull. scary light SA pull. little recoil, no pain--nothing at all like a CW45. a box of 50 left the center of the target shot out. fun to shoot a gun that knows the job. I can't afford it and couldn't carry it, so the world is safe.

I'll agree about the HK's. I have an HK45c, a compact Stainless USP45, and a FS USP40. All are very accurate and easy to shoot well. The USP40 is a bit large for me to carry, but with excellent night sights and a 14 round mag, it makes a good home defense pistol. I do carry the two compacts occasionally when I can cover a belt holster.

[marcinstl]

the CW45 would just wear me out, finally traded it for a CM9. I can't imagine punishing myself with a CM45--yikes! I think a lightweight .45 is a young mans gun. I shoot big, heavy guns with big sights much better than carry guns. for a while I was playing with the idea of cross chest strap, "messenger " bag with a built in holster to carry a large, high capacity gun-- never got past the prototype stage. better to have a small gun on your body.

[ScottM]

True, better to have a small gun than no gun at all when you need it, and to be honest an LCP or a CW380 beats both the CM9 and CM45 in carry comfort. But sometimes a larger gun just feels right :-).

[O'Dell]

I don't have a problem with my CM45, nor did I have one with the PM45 that was stolen. I've also had two CW45's and they're pussycats to shoot, IMO. I think that all of them are easier to shoot than the PM or CM 40, but my heavier MK40 is one of my favorite shooters.

BTW, I'm on the wrong side of 70.

[ScottM]

That's great O'Dell - I sure hope I'm target shooting as well as you when I'm on the wrong side of 70!

[downtownv]

Funny. Just read this about the Army's quest for a new Sidearm. The Sig250 was discussed.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

[ScottM]

Funny. Just read this about the Army's quest for a new Sidearm. The Sig250 was discussed.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

Very interesting, thanks for the link!

I just got back from the range putting 100 rounds of Winchester white box through my new CM45, and 50 rounds through the P250sc45 (including a magazine of Hornandy CD). I'm enjoying both guns, so here are some more words of comparison.

Not a single failure with the P250, not two-handed, not one-handed, not with the white box nor the critical defense ammo. Very accurate gun - 4" centers at 50'. The trigger pull is loooong compared to the CM45 and takes some getting used to, though the break is flawless. I'm finding that my hand position is changing as I get to learn the gun. Note that I shot this one at the end of my range session, when my hands were getting tired and a little shakey, and I did feel that the long pull could be a disadvantage in a tired or super-stressed situation. On the other hand, having to pull that far might actually be quite good, to avoid an accidental discharge when you're under threat but not yet justified. The gun feels perfectly sized and balanced - really is nice to shoot if you can get over the long pull.

The CM45 failed to feed 8 times in its first 100 rounds, I think mainly due to tight factory tolerances and a grip not tight enough. I did managed to get through the last 5 magazines without failures by bolstering my grip. I didn't like getting impaled in the head 4 times with spent cartridges though. Nice trigger and accurate gun - I don't remember my group sizes because I was focusing on improving my grip, but I didn't see any goofy flyers. I thought the gun was comfortable and its cheese-grater grips weren't nearly as bad as I had predicted.

I'm looking forward to cleaning the guns and going to the range again after Christmas. Good times!

[O'Dell]

Funny. Just read this about the Army's quest for a new Sidearm. The Sig250 was discussed.

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

I find it interesting that they are considering a Detonics design since I own an early [1980] Detonics Combat Master.

[ScottM]

Size comparison between a Sig P250sc45, Kahr CM45 and a Ruger LCP:

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/25/04ca8a339ae6820facd41694fb1a9940.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/25/48c138f02e56775d11062b2e1c300f88.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/25/ab96f438a6d098513759729b8dd72a47.jpg

[CJB]

The reason I got my first Kahr is that the Sig SubC .45auto was late getting to market. Very late in fact. Sig themselves gave mixed responses as to if/when it would ever be released at all. So, I went with Kahr, a PM45 and never looked back. Four Kahr pistols so far (one went missing, sadly).

Kahr is not pseudo-SA it is DA. And so is the Sig 250. The difference beting striker vs hammer, not the "action" of the trigger.

[CJB]

I find it interesting that they are considering a Detonics design since I own an early [1980] Detonics Combat Master.

Loved and carried my Detonics, sadly sold to help pay for my house!

One of these days, I'm going to build another, as close as I can, to the Detonics. Great little .45

[ScottM]

Kahr is not pseudo-SA it is DA. And so is the Sig 250. The difference beting striker vs hammer, not the "action" of the trigger.

No, the 250 is true DA but the Kahr is not. Break down your Kahr and examine the rear belly of the slide carefully and look at what the sear action does. It's neither SA nor DA, hence my term pseudo-SA because "pre-set striker" and "striker fired action (SFA) are sort of clunky terms. From Wikipedia:

Pre-set strikers and hammers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially cocked position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. While technically two actions, it differs from a double-action trigger in that the trigger is not capable of fully cocking the striker or hammer. It differs from single-action in that if the striker or hammer were to release, it would generally not be capable of igniting the primer. Examples of pre-set strikers are the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Springfield Armory XDS (only), Kahr Arms, and Ruger SR series pistols. This type of trigger mechanism is sometimes referred to as a Striker Fired Action or SFA. Examples of pre-set hammers are the Kel-Tec P-32 and Ruger LCP pistols.

[marcinstl]

ScottM, it takes a brave man to venture into this DA, SA, striker fired, etc. definition thing. I like to go back to revolvers and say a SA requires the hammer to be cocked by a thumb, where as a DA just needs a finger on the trigger to do both cocking and shooting. anything beyond those two types of actions are some sort of jumble. a DA pistol that doesn't have second strike capability like the DA revolver, is not a true DA pistol. the amount of pre-cock on a hammer or striker can produce various results-- I would call a Walther PPQ a single action, a Glock is just "glocky" and a Kahr is more like the DA revolver, possibly safer to carry than one of the light triggered guns. the SCCY is second strike capable, the Kel-Tec isn't. is second strike capability a deciding factor in gun selection? (I was watching a Hickok45 video where he is reviewing the Ruger SR9c and says, although he doesn't like a thumb safety on a carry gun, the very light trigger on the SR9c would force him to use the safety if he was carrying it. that must be one light trigger to get a "glock guy" to say that.)
so anyway, why would somebody want a Sig 250? smooth, but long trigger and 16 round capacity? might be a gun to have until Kahr builds a double stack 9mm (not holding my breath for that.)

[ScottM]

You're right, it all gets complicated - engineers can be disruptive to conventional terms if left on their own for too long :-). At least we're not discussing anything truly controversial like which engine oil is better... ;-)

[CJB]

Good lord....

Ya can't cock it first via other means, has a long stricker cocking trigger pull, so that ain't pseudo-single action to me.

I'll concede that the rest of the argument is rather murky, but the beast acts more DA than anything (unlike say, Glock). Whether the hammer and/or striker can be recocked is irrelevant in my way of thinking (and I'm open to studious correction on that).

[ScottM]

Yea, I think in the end what complicates things is the original definition of DA. The first action cocks the hammer and the second action releases its sear and drops the hammer against the firing pin. This is how a revolver works and the P250 too (the P250 being DAOnly). Grab either in any firing condition and you'll always be able to cock and fire with a trigger pull. Not true with a SA 1911 or a striker Kahr or Glock.

With Striker Fired Action guns like most (all?) of Kahr's, yes, there technically are two action - a small amount of final safety cocking and release of the sear, but it only works once the gun has been prepared, or half-cocked with a slide rack. Based on classical definitions, that makes Kahrs different from true DA because you can't fully cock and fire a striker gun from full mechanical rest.

[CJB]

Actuallly, unlike the Glock, the Kahr has very little pre-tension on its striker, and the trigger tensions it quite a bit before release - one thing that I like about the Kahr, and why I consider it intrinsically safer than the Glock for pocket carry.

[ScottM]

Actuallly, unlike the Glock, the Kahr has very little pre-tension on its striker, and the trigger tensions it quite a bit before release - one thing that I like about the Kahr, and why I consider it intrinsically safer than the Glock for pocket carry.

I completely agree. The Glocks, while fine pistols, just don't feel they require as much pull as I'd want when I'm about to plunge my life into a 2-year-or-more legal morass for defending myself with armed force.

[marcinstl]

well there ya are, kicked back in the fancy club, sipping a $100 martini, when the Glock falls out of the waistband and goes down a pant leg, you try to retrieve it but somehow get a finger on the "Safe action trigger" and BOOM! hehehehehe, had to go to jail and don't play football no more, do ya? (that's totally unfair to Glock, the idiot had the gun stuffed in his pants, no holster and don't know how many drinks he had--- total operator error.)

[gb6491]

... the SCCY is second strike capable, the Kel-Tec isn't. is second strike capability a deciding factor in gun selection?...
Might I interject here young sir? While it's true that some Kel-Tec pistols require slide manipulation to reset the trigger, I believe that SCCY's CPX-1 (and CPX-2) most closely compare to Kel-Tec's P-11. The P-11 is "second strike" capable (if the HEAVY trigger pull hasn't worn your trigger finger out:().
Regards,
Greg

[marcinstl]

the P-11 is second strike capable? hmmm, you know 15 round S&W 5906 magazines work in P-11's. interesting, very interesting. thanks, Greg.

[Stingray]

I have a pretty good supply of S&W 5906 mags, including a couple of 30 rounders :)

[marcinstl]

I have a pretty good supply of S&W 5906 mags, including a couple of 30 rounders :)

looks kind of silly hanging out the bottom of a P-11. maybe I need to shop for a SUB-2000 that fits those S&W mags?

[gb6491]

looks kind of silly hanging out the bottom of a P-11. maybe I need to shop for a SUB-2000 that fits those S&W mags?
I went with the Glock magazine version:)
http://i53.tinypic.com/33u2vkk.jpg
Regards,
Greg

[ScottM]

Want want want want

[marcinstl]

hey ScottM,
I was looking at the Sig site and happened to notice this-- http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p250-sub-compact-nitron-380.aspx
has anybody ever seen, or shot one of these?

[ScottM]

Nice capacity but big for a .380.

[CPTKILLER]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnCxJbxlikw

One of the better reviews of the P250.

[ScottM]

Agreed. Also: http://youtu.be/MrbBRw3IjLA

[marcinstl]

Agreed. Also: http://youtu.be/MrbBRw3IjLA
Kahr shooters will get a kick out of Nutjob staging the DA trigger. that's the way you learn on a Kahr. after a couple of hundred rounds, shooting like a newbie, you take it up a notch and practice a faster, smooth, continuous pull that goes from 0 to bang with no pause. now your on the way to shooting fast double taps.
when it comes to engineering, I like simple and I like quality. so far the P250 looks like a high capacity gun a Kahr fan could like. I looked at a parts diagram for the P250, compare to Glock or M&P, amazing. (there's almost nothing inside, they should knock another $100 off of the price, hehehehe.)

[ScottM]

You gave me ideas for my next range visit, thanks!

Agreed about simplicity and quality. I also like that you take off a P250 slide without removing any parts - makes it dumb-simple to lube its works at the range in just a couple minutes without additional tools, just Remlube it and keep going.

[marcinstl]

You gave me ideas for my next range visit, thanks!

Agreed about simplicity and quality. I also like that you take off a P250 slide without removing any parts - makes it dumb-simple to lube its works at the range in just a couple minutes without additional tools, just Remlube it and keep going.

Ah, Ha! a wet lube kind of guy. do ya get a little oil spray on your glasses when shooting? I was just watching a video of a guy who assembled his dry gun with dry graphite "lube" . I have to surf around and see if I can find any comparison articles. (I'm a 20th century mechanic and I believe in oil and grease, also in cleaning and re-lubing. the dry lube argument is that it attracts less "dirt" and cuts the maintenance down. ) (maybe start a new thread for that topic?)

[O'Dell]

I've had a lot of SIG's and Kahrs, and have found the both prefer to be run wet. However, not to the point of oiling up your shooting glasses.

[ScottM]

I used Hoppes cleaners and oils for 20 years until a about year ago, when a gunsmith turned me on to synthetic greases. That's what I use now, and use spray lubricants at the range to save time rewetting surfaces when I'm going through a lot of ammo. But I'll use whatever works. [emoji1]

[stevec5ws6]

I have shot a 250 I liked it a lot, probably one of the better triggers i have felt on a SIG. I would definitley own at the prices they have been going for around here.

It was pretty accurate also.

[ScottM]

I think the P250 might be a real sleeper, especially with the striker-based P320 coming out (to replace it?). I think that's what is driving prices down, plus there are so many other guns that are smaller, have more capacity, more sex appeal, etc. It's like the Suzuki V-Strom if you're a motorcycle guy - it excels at nothing but does everything exceedingly well, with boring reliability if you treat it even half-well. I though I'd sell mine after getting a CM45 but I don't know - that P250 just fits me right.

[marcinstl]

shopping guns--
Glock 26- set up for carry with "New York trigger" and 3.5 connector, 15 round mag.
Sig P250 subcompact with 15 round mag.
Walther P99c with 15 round mag.
all are about the same size and weight(5-6 oz. heavier than a Kahr CW9). I like 15 round magazines for more capacity and more handle. (don't care about "printing"). everybody knows what the Glock is. the Sig P250sc is revolver simple. the Walther P99c is a DA/SA striker fired gun with a decocker. so the P250 and P99c start out with a DA trigger, the Glock starts out with however you have it set up.
so, over a thousand rounds of first shots from a draw, which was the fastest, most accurate, safest? which got the most rounds on target in 5 follow up shots?

[ESAFO]

2 1/2yrs ago i took my CC test with my P250C 45 9+1, i bought it because the feel in my hand was amazing & it was on sale @ local gun show.
it took me no time at all to decide this trigger was'nt for me after our range time & sold it shortly after, i just wish the pull was alittle shorter because it fit like a glove.
but everyone has there own taste & some may love the feel of the trigger action on the 250's, not saying i would never own another but if the price's continue to fall :cool:

[Gene Hackman]

I had a p250 sc .40 cal. I also own a kahr. The 250 had a smooth but very long and heavy trigger. Nothing like a kahr. The p250 turned out to be a lemon. Sent it to sig sauer and they said it was good but I still had trouble. They managed to sell me about 200 dollars worth of crap and parts for it even though I had bought it brand new in september 2014. I sold that paperweight for next to nothing and sig sauer can go screw themselves. I will never buy anything sig related ever again. I'm trying to get my dad to carry something else too. He carries a p238.

[jeepster09]

All my Sigs are great guns. No complaints at all.