Kahr's CS reputaton is suffering

[O'Dell]

I was on two very active gun forums today, and Kahr's CS seems to be taking a beating. The thread on Firing Line generated two pages just today and a lot of the posts were negative. I don't know if this is the result of Ian leaving, but I've never seen this before regarding Kahr. I'm not sure if the Company monitors this site, but it appears that something needs to be done and quickly. If not, I can see lost business resulting from posts like I saw today. People are saying that they are getting the runaround from Kahr. I would hate to see Kahr become another Taurus.

[rholmes69]

I recently traded pistols on here with another member, he is having the same problem depsite flawless experience in the past with his three other Kahr firearms. If someone spends the money to buy 4 different firearms, you better treat them well. That is kind of a slap in the face otherwise...

[ripley16]

In the years I've read gun forums, Kahr has always suffered from a higher than usual amount of posts dealing with quality problems, compared to some other brands. IMHO, this is nothing new. The most common topics seem to be;

* the break-in period
* slide release V. slingshot
* rounds that submarine/ feed problems
* lightstrikes
* ejection problems

[O'Dell]

In the years I've read gun forums, Kahr has always suffered from a higher than usual amount of posts dealing with quality problems, compared to some other brands. IMHO, this is nothing new. The most common topics seem to be;

* the break-in period
* slide release V. slingshot
* rounds that submarine/ feed problems
* lightstrikes
* ejection problems

What I'm seeing is new, because it is the Kahr CS that's under fire. Kahr has chosen to place itself on the cutting edge of very small, concealable pistols of an effective caliber. I, for one, am glad, but being on the cutting edge means you have to have an excellent design, and you must be willing to correct problems resulting from the close tolerances. It's easy to build a big clunky pistol with reliability, but much harder to build a very small one.

When I read a review of a Kahr pistol either online or in a magazine the excellent quality of the gun is usually found in the first paragraph, and my experience has borne this out. However, knowing how tightly these gun are designed, Kahr must go above and beyond to make sure if a problem develops, they will fix it. The recent "gap" issue with the PM45's comes to mind. They fixed mine, and I hope they have handled the others the same way. If they don't they have a CS problem, and the word will spread like wildfire.

I have a Taurus 24/7 Pro c 45, and it has been a reliable pistol. However Taurus CS has become a joke in the last few years, and as a result, their products have become a laughingstock. If some asks me what guns I own, I seldom mention the 24/7, because of the ridicule. I don't want the same thing to happen to Kahr, because I want to be proud of my Kahr pistols, and I want them to keep coming.

[wyntrout]

I don't remember if I posted this note from the new guy(??) This is after sending two emails with pictures of my replacement PM45 DLC slide compared to the original to Ian and those were unanswered. I then just sent it to customer service. I never did get an answer or any mention of the emails I sent about my P380 continuing to have premature slide locks... with ammo left in the magazine.

Anyhow, how do you feel about this attitude?

"Tue 6/22/2010 9:44 AM

Good morning.

While I understand your frustration with this situation. I have consulted with my supervisor and been informed that the roll mark is within factory tolerances. Parts outside these cosmetic tolerances only (all parts failing safe or mechanical tolerances are discarded) are put aside to be used on Blemished guns which are sold at a significant discount. As this slide is with in factory tolerances I am unable to replace a fully functioning slide.

Eoin Pryal.
Kahr Arms."

I posted the pix below. I really have to get the light just right to even tell there's "engraving" on the slide. My original could be read across the room.
Now I can get it Mag-Na-Ported because it won't make it look much worse. It's hardly an example of Kahr "craftmanship" that I can proudly point to.

Wynn:(

[jocko]

One would think if it was as bad as other forums are saying that we would have heard of it on this forum from those who are unhappy. Gotta analyze what gun forum it is being said on also. In the past 2 years I would have to rate kahrs CS as excellent to above excellent. Yet still there can be some who receive poor service, of which we will never fully know the entire story either.
Wyn's case from the photo's are a very good indication that they still might have a way to go to get even better customer satisfaction.

Personaly Wyn, I would not settle for such a bad roll marks. That is just terrible and I think I would just send it back and let them have a close look at it in person. Or at least forward those photos to CS and someone other than a phone answering person...If u don't care what it looks like then indeed go ahead and have it ported, but then you can't go back either. Do it right....

[OldLincoln]

Pics 3&4 look like my PM9. I figured it must be the black finish process. They say they build cosmetic imperfection guns at a HUGE discount, so if it really bothers you, I'll give you $250 for it!

[wyntrout]

One would think if it was as bad as other forums are saying that we would have heard of it on this forum from those who are unhappy. Gotta analyze what gun forum it is being said on also. In the past 2 years I would have to rate kahrs CS as excellent to above excellent. Yet still there can be some who receive poor service, of which we will never fully know the entire story either.
Wyn's case from the photo's are a very good indication that they still might have a way to go to get even better customer satisfaction.

Personaly Wyn, I would not settle for such a bad roll marks. That is just terrible and I think I would just send it back and let them have a close look at it in person. Or at least forward those photos to CS and someone other than a phone answering person...If u don't care what it looks like then indeed go ahead and have it ported, but then you can't go back either. Do it right....

Yeah, that's what I thought. I was ready to send it for porting and thought I would at least give them a chance before that was done.
It seems the only criteria they are "worried" about is safety and whether it will shoot. I'm sure sick of apologizing or excusing this kind of stuff. Looks are very important and this is what I'm stuck with, I'll just make it a better tool and try to keep it shooting reliably. I'm still laying in .45 ACP range ammo whenever I go to WalMart and see some for $17 or less... Federal or WW100.

I don't understand complete silence on my P380 and I just decided to wait until I try the original springs again and then ask for another slide stop and spring to see if that help. I did ask about that in the P380 emails
I sent to Ian and then to CS.

Wynn:confused:

[O'Dell]

One would think if it was as bad as other forums are saying that we would have heard of it on this forum from those who are unhappy. Gotta analyze what gun forum it is being said on also. In the past 2 years I would have to rate kahrs CS as excellent to above excellent. Yet still there can be some who receive poor service, of which we will never fully know the entire story either.
Wyn's case from the photo's are a very good indication that they still might have a way to go to get even better customer satisfaction.

Personaly Wyn, I would not settle for such a bad roll marks. That is just terrible and I think I would just send it back and let them have a close look at it in person. Or at least forward those photos to CS and someone other than a phone answering person...If u don't care what it looks like then indeed go ahead and have it ported, but then you can't go back either. Do it right....

I would agree - my experience has been excellent, as has most of the people's on this forum. The problem posted on TFL forum was a gap issue on a PM45. We know that this problem exist as does Kahr, but the poster claimed he was getting the runaround. If his pistol would not load the top round from the mag as he stated, he has a legitimate complaint.

This being a "Kahr" forum, we generally are a bit myopic when it comes to our guns and their issues - we love them anyway. In general [and widely read] forums like TFL and THR, people are not so forgiving. We are in the information generation, and problems or perceived problems are spread quickly and far. QC or design issues won't kill a manufacturer. Just ask S&W, Colt, Glock, SIG, or anyone else. They have all had them. But the refusal to acknowledge them and the reluctance to handle them will. I am certainly not anti-Kahr, but as I said, they are on the cutting edge and are more vulnerable. I just want them to remain viable.

[rholmes69]

That sucks!

I called them when I first got my MK9 and complained about the recoil spring. Ian sent me another one no questions asked. I was thinking, Holy crap, these guys are on point.

Then, there was an attempt to get the replacement (beveled) slide stop because the original one can eat your thumb to pieces. No dice from Kahr.

[OldLincoln]

Re: Jocko's post: We have heard from a few that their service wasn't up to par but they were directed to Ian and ended well.

All of you have been my tech support and I'm thankful for it. The gun isn't a work of art, but the reason I have it is to use as a tool for self defense and I'll take care of it like the fine tool it is.

[wyntrout]

I talked to Eoin's and his supervisor's boss yesterday about my Kahr problems and some of the ones I've seen online here... especially the ones that were "within spec's." From my descriptions, he was alarmed that things like this were not being taken care of and customers satisfied. That was certainly not the customer service that the company intended.
Some things were discussed with the people who handle our support. The supervisor that Eoin consulted about my poorly "engraved" slide had only looked at the first photos I sent -- the "before" or original slide pictures, which looked within spec's to him.

I talked to him for over half an hour(I apologized for taking up so much of his time, but you know me :blah::D) It's evident that our support wasn't up to what the company expects, so he's taking steps to make it better.
Both my P380 and my PM45 should be about there by now. I shipped those back by FedEx last evening with direction to his attention. Getting that done was kind of a funny story.

I went online around 4:15 PM and set up shipping for the package, and ordered pickup(I thought). The time slot was 4:30 to 6:00 PM and I scramble to get the guns ready and packaged, along with documentation and notes about the problems.
I had intended to go pickup my shotgun until I got a chance to talk with Kahr's guy in charge of the Customer Support about my guns. Then I wanted to get them up to CS ASAP before the holiday stops everything.
Well, I waited and waited and 6:30 passed... no FedEx. I waited until after 7PM and then started looking for FedEx contact info to see what was happening. After getting out of the phone maze and reaching a real person, the guy (who might have been in Pakistan:confused:) checked my package and said there was no pickup scheduled. Hmmm.... I got a label printed and got the addresses correct, but I must have not done everything required.
Okay, where's the nearest place that 's still open and staffed by FedEx personnel who can receive guns for shipping? There were only two and one was closing in 15 minutes, so I got the address of the one open until 8:30 PM... or rather I got the general area where it was located. I couldn't understand the guy. I just looked again for locations and got the address and started putting it in my GPS. The GPS wasn't receiving satellites and went into simulator mode and asked if I wanted to simulate driving there... NO! I finally got everything together, with my PM9 as my CCW now. I hooked the GPS up in the car... still in simulator mode, backed the van out and checked my left front tire which loses a few pounds air pressure over a few days... it looked like it could use a little air, so I put some in the tire, and then backed out of the garage fully. The GPS was still in simulator mode and I tried to get it to go to the FedEx location... okay, but STILL in play mode. Dang! Can't fool around... got to go! The dang thing is giving me directions but still in simulator mode, so I continued trying to get into real-world mode.
Here I was in traffic now screwing around with an electronic gadget. My GPS mount/base is on the top of the dashboard in line with the road ahead. People who have them anyplace else are crazy. I'm too distracted with it there. It's idiotic to put those things where the radio is the the lower middle of dashboard... it ought to be against the law.
Anyhow, I finally got the damn thing in real mode and continued on my way. I had about 40 minutes or so until closing when I left home. I had about 18 miles to go and I was in somewhat of a hurry.
I made it to the pickup location with 20 minutes to spare, but not without a few wrong turns... the GPS can be helpful, but if you're completely clueless about where you're going, you can definitely have trouble.
When the GPS said I was there, I didn't see anything familiar and had to really look around. I finally saw a FedEx sign on a street off the one I was on. Whew! I got it on the way, though they probably won't get it until Tuesday after the holiday. What fun!

Thursday, I was watching UPS tracking on my shotgun and saw that it was delivered at 5:37PM and my dealer closes at 7PM, so I hauled butt 12.7 miles over to his store at about 6:35 to find he had closed early and was gone. Yesterday I got caught up with the shipping the guns. I hope to connect with my new Charles Daly Tactical Semi-Auto shotgun today.

See what I mean about having to apologize to the poor guy?? Hopefully, all CS will improve now. Oh, BTW, the new guy is a Brit -- Eoin Pryal, and his first name is pronounced "Ian".:rolleyes:

Wynn:D

Hey! I put in a plug for a K4544N. too... an all-steel .45... K45... no news there, though.

[jocko]

nice report Wyn. I think they will get you right. Sh-t happens as u well know but you proceeded with ease with this issue and the results were what you expected. Now hopefully kahr will do what is right also.

I make no alibies for Kahr or Smith or Glock, or ruger, but if one thinks any of these companies don't have issues and sometimes poor quality product being shipped out, then they are in a dream world. When one gets a product tha tis not right, normally a nice phone call and rtalking to the RIGHT person will get it resolved. again wyn, nice report.

I may have stated this before. But a few years back I bought a new Porsche, great vechicle indeed, but at 600 miles it refused to run. Not happy, I called Porsche, Porsche sent a slider truck over 125 miles to pick up the car at my home. 3 days later they re delievered it back to my home and stated it had a faulty misbehaving electrical part. all in all I was happy with the service, now to top it off about 2 months after I get a check in the mail for $600 from Porsche America with a full apology for the incident . to me they went far beyond what I expected but for them they also expect perfection from their products so they did all they could be make me even more happy. I took the $600 and bought my PM9:banplease:

[wyntrout]

I told him about hsart's new P380 and its bad DLC finish. He was concerned and wanted to look into that.
Sometimes the worker bees are trying to be "efficient" and save the company money, when the company would be more concerned with customer satisfaction and a good reputation. Now, if we could just get better QC... so we don't need so much CS.
Wynn:D

[O'Dell]

I told him about hsart's new P380 and its bad DLC finish. He was concerned and wanted to look into that.
Sometimes the worker bees are trying to be "efficient" and save the company money, when the company would be more concerned with customer satisfaction and a good reputation. Now, if we could just get better QC... so we don't need so much CS.
Wynn:D

Thanks for your report and efforts on behalf of Kahr owners. Since I'm the one that started this mess, I feel better now.

[O'Dell]

nice report Wyn. I think they will get you right. Sh-t happens as u well know but you proceeded with ease with this issue and the results were what you expected. Now hopefully kahr will do what is right also.

I make no alibies for Kahr or Smith or Glock, or ruger, but if one thinks any of these companies don't have issues and sometimes poor quality product being shipped out, then they are in a dream world. When one gets a product tha tis not right, normally a nice phone call and rtalking to the RIGHT person will get it resolved. again wyn, nice report.

I may have stated this before. But a few years back I bought a new Porsche, great vechicle indeed, but at 600 miles it refused to run. Not happy, I called Porsche, Porsche sent a slider truck over 125 miles to pick up the car at my home. 3 days later they re delievered it back to my home and stated it had a faulty misbehaving electrical part. all in all I was happy with the service, now to top it off about 2 months after I get a check in the mail for $600 from Porsche America with a full apology for the incident . to me they went far beyond what I expected but for them they also expect perfection from their products so they did all they could be make me even more happy. I took the $600 and bought my PM9:banplease:

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that everyone has had problems at one time or another. It's how they handle them that makes all the difference.

You just had to mention a Porsche problem didn't you? Now I'm starting to look sideways at the Boxster in the garage.;)

[jocko]

cayman S

[JodyH]

If you think Kahr has "excellent" cs, then you've never dealt with S&W.
S&W is excellent, Kahr is mediocre to poor at best.

Kahr is a PIA. Ship it back at my expense when I've proven my case via emailed photos. Might get reimbursed, probably not. Might fix the issue, probably not. Might be back in a week or two, probably longer.

S&W sends a Fed-Ex label and arranges pick-up with no questions asked.
Usually follow up with a phone call once they receive your gun.
Quick turnaround.
A few "goodies" (magazines, stickers, hat) tossed in as a mea culpa.

I love my PM9 and CW9, but Kahr has yet to make my P380 work to my satisfaction.
I'm tired of wasting $50 for Fed-Ex trips back to them.

[O'Dell]

If you think Kahr has "excellent" cs, then you've never dealt with S&W.
S&W is excellent, Kahr is mediocre to poor at best.

Kahr is a PIA. Ship it back at my expense when I've proven my case via emailed photos. Might get reimbursed, probably not. Might fix the issue, probably not. Might be back in a week or two, probably longer.

S&W sends a Fed-Ex label and arranges pick-up with no questions asked.
Usually follow up with a phone call once they receive your gun.
Quick turnaround.
A few "goodies" (magazines, stickers, hat) tossed in as a mea culpa.

I love my PM9 and CW9, but Kahr has yet to make my P380 work to my satisfaction.
I'm tired of wasting $50 for Fed-Ex trips back to them.

I've dealt with both. I sent my new SW9VE back for a factory trigger job last summer when they were still doing them. They sent me a label, paid for shipping both ways, did a nice job, and had it back in six days.

In April I called Kahr about the "notch" not being cut on a PM45 I bought USED. The pistol was fully functional, but I was worried about not having the notch. They had it picked up at my LGS [my choice because I'm not home a lot], Paid shipping both ways, replaced the slide with a notched and beveled one, also replaced the recoil assy and polished the ramp, and had it back at my LGS in five days.

Almost a draw, but Kahr went above and beyond what I requested on a used gun, plus beat S&W by one day.

Decision: KAHR

[jocko]

both good companies, leave it at that..

[O'Dell]

cayman S

Mine's an S too. Similar cars except that I don't need a can opener to take the top off. :)

[jocko]

Mine's an S too. Similar cars except that I don't need a can opener to take the top off. :)

IMO is really not soft top country..

[O'Dell]

All this talk about CS reminds me of a program for you SIG owners out there. As previously posted, I bought a Nickle plated P220 two weeks ago. With a bit of polishing, the gun looks and shoots like new, but it's fourteen years old and the night sights are dim. I called SIG yesterday to inquire about installing new sights since this is my bedside gun. The CS rep said that they would install the sights, and that was $119, but he had a better idea. For $129 they do the following:

Detail strip, inspection of all parts and detail clean [ultrasonic]
Install all new springs including recoil assy
reassemble and lube to factory specs
Install SIGLITE sights
Zero sights and function check
Send in back in a factory case [which I don't have]

I have to pay shipping, but he sent a label and it's $55 round trip next day air. Not a bad deal, since I don't want to fool with it.

[jocko]

hell of a deal, best jump on that...

[Bawanna]

Agreed, let them check it all out for you. Great piece of mind.

[O'Dell]

The P220 was shipped to SIG today. I guess I'll have to play with something else for two weeks.

[Jim K]

From this view Kahr CS is good. The hit & miss quality issues are something that can be improved. Some folks get firearms from Kahr that are perfect and are happy. Others wonder why they spent top dollar to buy hype and apologies. Kahr pistols are great when you get one without issues. I think that Kahr can be a great firearms manufacturer and have little need for CS if the QA & QC issues are taken care of at the factory. Just my opinion, colored by good purchases from CZ, HK, HK, Glock.