It is now illegal to shoulder a "stabilizing brace" while shooting a pistol AR or AK

[thefirearmguy]

Well, many gun owners along with others questioned the ATF and inquired the legality of shouldering a pistol with a stabilizing brace. Yesterday, 1/17/15, the ATF ruled that a stabilizing brace must be used for single handed shooting. The thousands of people who purchased these braces now have glorified paper weights. Here my take on the matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuJHeF7y9q4

[b4uqzme]

Yeah. I kinda figured that was coming.

[CJB]

Sorry, can someone verify the 'ruling'

[RRP]

For those who haven't followed this issue, the SB-15 Sig brace is not illegal to purchase or illegal to attach to an AR pistol. Nor is it illegal to fire a Sig brace-equipped AR pistol from the shoulder, if the gun is registered as an NFA firearm. That requires the filing of Form 1 and the payment of a $200 tax stamp, which is why most folks are up in arms over this (pardon the pun).

When Sig sought the ATF's approval on the SB-15, ATF responded that the attachment of the stabilizing brace does not change the classification of the gun if used as designed. In other words, merely attaching a Sig brace to an AR pistol, whose barrel is shorter than 16", does not automatically create a short-barreled rifle. In that original approval letter, ATF never said the U-shaped rubber forearm brace could be wrapped in velcro and used as a butt stock. But that is exactly how many people used the brace. The legality of using the brace as a stock was questioned repeatedly, and the ATF recently posted clarification, linked below. In this letter, the ATF states that using the brace as a stock to be fired from the shoulder, rather than as a stabilizing brace which attaches to a forearm, changes the intended design of the brace, and therefore requires registration as an NFA firearm.

Here's the most recent letter on the matter, directly from the horse's mouth; the ATF.
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/FirearmsIndustry/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces. pdf

If one uses the SB-15 as a brace attached to a forearm, the ATF has no objection. If one uses the stabilizing brace as a shoulder-fired stock, the ATF says that changes the designed intent of the stabilizing brace, crossing the line into the world of NFA firearms. Pay the tax stamp or risk being caught with an unregistered NFA item.

[pwilson]

how exactly would the ATF know if Joe Shmo happens to put the brace up to his shoulder while firing off a few rounds at the local range?

[RRP]

how exactly would the ATF know if Joe Shmo happens to put the brace up to his shoulder while firing off a few rounds at the local range?

Unless there was an ATF agent present, or it was caught on tape, they wouldn't know.

Which reminds me of a quote I read a long time ago: Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

[downtownv]

They never cease to amaze, do they?
Thanks for posting.

[pwilson]

Unless there was an ATF agent present, or it was caught on tape, they wouldn't know.

Which reminds me of a quote I read a long time ago: Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.
kinda like how you dont run a red light in the middle of the night even though no one is there.. lol

[marcinstl]

the bad guys are chasing me across the backyard, I take cover behind the maple tree and use the tree to brace my arm/body against while I take some shots. what is the ATF's position on stationary(non-mobile) braces? what about a "lanyard" that can function like a "sling"? can we just go back to the old days when a "pistol" was shot with one hand and a rifle or shotgun was usually shot with 2 hands?
can we fire some lawyers and stop trying to write a law for every little thing?

[RRP]

~~~ can we just go back to the old days when a "pistol" was shot with one hand and a rifle or shotgun was usually shot with 2 hands?


That's sorta what the ATF is saying, isn't it? One handed is good-to-go. Shoot it with two hands, held against your shoulder, and they call it a rifle.

[CJB]

So, beyond comfort, wtf is the difference if you put the buffer tube right on your shoulder, as many, many have done?

Seems to me that this is either el-stupido (mas loco for those in Rio Linda), or its a first attempt at puttin' the kabosh on all AR-pistols

[yqtszhj]

how exactly would the ATF know if Joe Shmo happens to put the brace up to his shoulder while firing off a few rounds at the local range?

Joe Shmo post himself on youtube. I saw that very thing after i heard about the ruling and thought to myself "well that wasn't very smart of him."

[yqtszhj]

So, beyond comfort, wtf is the difference if you put the buffer tube right on your shoulder, as many, many have done?

Seems to me that this is either el-stupido (mas loco for those in Rio Linda), or its a first attempt at puttin' the kabosh on all AR-pistols

Exactly. I don't see the purpose in the SBR restrictions these days myself. When someone can carry a glock with a 30 round mag in their jacket why the big deal over SBR's?

[jeepster09]

The big deal on "short barell rifles" is PENETRATION. :2eek: No pistol round has the same penetration as a rifle....ok ok some may argue the 5.7 has the penetration.

[marcinstl]

That's sorta what the ATF is saying, isn't it? One handed is good-to-go. Shoot it with two hands, held against your shoulder, and they call it a rifle.

yeah, it's a rifle and I don't care what the barrel length is. pistols is pistols, rifles is rifles, why all the rules and definitions?
https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-4570-Revolver-10-inch-Barrel.asp a revolver, chambered in a classic rifle caliber. put a scope and a stock on it for backyard squirrel hunting, spray it flat black, write "tactical" on the barrel-- it's a lot more dangerous now? ATF gonna raid you? how does that joke go-- Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms should be the name of a convenience store? how much would the taxpayers save if the ATF and DEA were shut down?

[yqtszhj]

The big deal on "short barell rifles" is PENETRATION. :2eek: No pistol round has the same penetration as a rifle....ok ok some may argue the 5.7 has the penetration.

Maybe so but in the 30's it was more about concealable weapons including pistols. Now from a total firepower position i think its outdated. Keeping automatic weapons, ok maybe. But SBR's, they need to just drop it. Bag guy will carry what he wants anyway.

[Longitude Zero]

Placing the buffer tube against your shoulder was and probably still is legal. This reversal was caused IMHO by a bunch of over zealous asshats. Many of them in the gun press and YouTube fools.

[RRP]

This reversal was caused IMHO by a bunch of over zealous asshats. Many of them in the gun press and YouTube fools.

This I agree with.


Placing the buffer tube against your shoulder was and probably still is legal.

Please show us where ATF ever said this was legal.

[TheTman]

I posted the following in the comments on the youtube video:
It's only a problem if you get caught. If you use it for home defense, who is going to see you? Just don't do it out in public. Or use as intended when in public. People were using a product sold as one thing, for a different purpose, and I understand why, but they should have known this was coming. I don't see much advantage in having a short barrel rifle anyway, what is a 4-8 inch shorter barrel going to accomplish for you? Other than reduce your ballistics. And maybe make it easier for criminals to hide. Why not mount a cheek piece on the buffer tube, and add a flat piece at the end to place against your shoulder, using clamps so they could be removed quickly? Someone with a 3D printer and a decent CAD program could probably make up those pieces pretty easy. Or you could probably come up with something using common wood working tools, some screws and some hose clamps. You could probably come up with something less bulky and lighter than those arm braces, and say they were to brace the pistol against your waist or hip or something, for point shooting. Use your imagination, I can think of all sorts of things that would be better than that shoulder brace.

Plus if you made up your own parts, you could customize them exactly to your specs and probably end up with something much better than that arm brace. If I can find the dimensions of the buffer tube, I could probably whip up something in the shop pretty quick. I bet The Colonel could too with all his wood working tools. Might be a nice way to pick up a few extra $$$, selling "hip or waist rests" for point shooting from the hip to chest area. I'm really wishing I had a 3D printer right now. Might as well go with black plastic to match the rest of the furniture on the AR pistols. If you have camo colored furniture, a couple cans of spray paint for plastic would probably work out to make the parts match well enough.

[addictedhealer]

Honestly not surprised. Sucks for all those who bought into it. I didn't and won't.

My 16" is short enough to me. Get a 14.5 with a fully collapsed stock gets better performance and shootability.

[srk468]

According to this letter shouldering the buffer tube is illegal. The problem here is their language, the have claimed that you "redesigned" the brace when putting it to your shoulder with no physical alterations. If this ruling stands then using two hands when shooting a pistol is a "redesign" of the grip and you now have an AOW and you are guilty of the same consequences. The ATF must rule if this is a pistol brace or a stock and I hope everyone contacts both their representatives and the ATF directly and demands this. This redefining words cannot be allowed to stand otherwise we are all in trouble. Just my $.02

[Longitude Zero]

I agree the BATFE muddied the waters even further. What IMHO will eventually happen is the "arm brace" will be outlawed in its entirety that is about the only way out without making it even more of a joke. The BATFE will take the easy way out and that is it. I knew from the start that the BATFE bofoed in allowing it in the first place.

[Longitude Zero]

This I agree with.



Please show us where ATF ever said this was legal.

They NEVER said it was not and that is the point. Until the Brace was brought to their attention they never had any reason to answer the question of putting the pistols buffer tube against your shoulder was illegal and thus they let it alone. In the past I saw AR pistols being shot this way thousands of times and nobody batted an eye. Once the Brace came to the fore now there is a reason for the BATFE to react. This is another example of letting sleeping dogs lie.