CW45 Extractor Problem?

[tony k]

My CW45 has been finicky about ammo since I got it. Feeds ball ammo fine, but only likes a few kinds of JHP. The malfunctions are always Failures to Feed like this:
12173
Note-this is a stock image from internet. I can't get my pics to turn out as good as Greg's

Been studying the case heads of spent casings and started to notice that the ejector gouges the forward edge of the ejector groove like this:
12175
Note-this is also a stock image that I stole from the internet. location of mark is the same, but in my CW 45 it's more of a sharp gouge.

I've always noticed that the extractor sits very deep in the slide, and does not act as a "loaded chamber indicator" as described in the manual (page 23-24, photo 14). This is what mine looks like:
12176
I've looked at other threads, and most people seem to dismiss this as normal variation in extractors. I'm skeptical about that.

When I put a case in the slide, I noticed that the extractor causes the case to tilt because it sits deeper and more forward than I think it should. The image below compares my CW45 (Left) to my CM9 (Right):
12177
As you can see, the CM9 extractor holds the case nice and flush to the breech face. In contrast, the CW45 extractor prevents the case from sitting flush against the breech face. When I force the case to sit flush against the breech, the front edge of the extractor gets cocked against the extractor groove.


Like I said, this CW45 has been a headache since day one. Had the short frame rail issue. Broken trigger bar. Most importantly, frequent failures to feed as shown in the first image. In contrast, my CM9 is BY FAR the most reliable handgun I own, and possibly the most reliable firearm I own.

All considered, I'm pretty confident that this extractor on the CW45 is causing the failure to feed problems. The question is how do I want to address it? Should I:

get an RA and just send it back to Kahr? I've owned this gun for 12 months. Between the frame replacement and the broken trigger bar, it's already spent 3 of those months at the factory, which I'm tired of.
try to rework the extractor on my own? Aside from polishing mag lips and reworking magazine followers, I have no experience with this kind of thing. Plus gun is still under warranty.
ask Kahr to send me a new extractor, front and rear extractor pins, and extractor spring? If replacing those parts doesn't fix it, then maybe the extractor channel in the slide is out of spec, at which point I'll send it back to Kahr.


What say you, Oh Sage Denizens of Kahrtalk?

[shlike]

My CW45 has been finicky about ammo since I got it. Feeds ball ammo fine, but only likes a few kinds of JHP. The malfunctions are always Failures to Feed like this:
12173
Note-this is a stock image from internet. I can't get my pics to turn out as good as Greg's

Been studying the case heads of spent casings and started to notice that the ejector gouges the forward edge of the ejector groove like this:
12175
Note-this is also a stock image that I stole from the internet. location of mark is the same, but in my CW 45 it's more of a sharp gouge.

I've always noticed that the extractor sits very deep in the slide, and does not act as a "loaded chamber indicator" as described in the manual (page 23-24, photo 14). This is what mine looks like:
12176
I've looked at other threads, and most people seem to dismiss this as normal variation in extractors. I'm skeptical about that.

When I put a case in the slide, I noticed that the extractor causes the case to tilt because it sits deeper and more forward than I think it should. The image below compares my CW45 (Left) to my CM9 (Right):
12177
As you can see, the CM9 extractor holds the case nice and flush to the breech face. In contrast, the CW45 extractor prevents the case from sitting flush against the breech face. When I force the case to sit flush against the breech, the front edge of the extractor gets cocked against the extractor groove.


Like I said, this CW45 has been a headache since day one. Had the short frame rail issue. Broken trigger bar. Most importantly, frequent failures to feed as shown in the first image. In contrast, my CM9 is BY FAR the most reliable handgun I own, and possibly the most reliable firearm I own.

All considered, I'm pretty confident that this extractor on the CW45 is causing the failure to feed problems. The question is how do I want to address it? Should I:

get an RA and just send it back to Kahr? I've owned this gun for 12 months. Between the frame replacement and the broken trigger bar, it's already spent 3 of those months at the factory, which I'm tired of.
try to rework the extractor on my own? Aside from polishing mag lips and reworking magazine followers, I have no experience with this kind of thing. Plus gun is still under warranty.
ask Kahr to send me a new extractor, front and rear extractor pins, and extractor spring? If replacing those parts doesn't fix it, then maybe the extractor channel in the slide is out of spec, at which point I'll send it back to Kahr.


What say you, Oh Sage Denizens of Kahrtalk?

For what it's worth, the extractor on my CW45 is not flush with the slide either and, like yours, is a little recessed. That said, I haven't had any problems with FTF or FTE. My gun has been back to the factory twice as well, once for the 'short-rail issue", and then again for Trigger not resetting issues. Both times Kahr had the gun back to me within a week. I think it's finally sorted out. Again, for what it's worth, both times Kahr voluntarily sent me a prepaid return label.

[tony k]

When mine went back for the short rail issue I got free shipping. I think I was one of the first people to send it in for that at least on kahrtalk, which might explain why it took them more than two months to send back IIRC. When it went back for the the broken trigger I had to pay for it,but it was back in about two and a half weeks.

The fact that the extractor is not flush doesn't matter to me so much in and of itself. What matters is that the angle and protrusion of the extractor restricts the case head from being flush with the breech face. My overall hypothesis is that this is causing the round to misalign with the chamber as it feeds.

[Bawanna]

My first thought was 180 degrees off of what you show. I thought perhaps the extractor was too tight and not allowing the case to slide up underneath as it should, but there seems to be plenty of room on yours.

Still it feeds ball ammo without trouble so that kind of points me back to the front end, not the rear.

I'd send those pictures to Kahr along with your good description of the issues your having and see what they say.

Maybe they'd send a new extractor to at least eliminate that part on the list.

[tony k]

With the slide removed, I can very easily slide a round up behind the extractor. Problem is, the round doesn't sit flat against the breech face as it does with the CM9.

I'm fairly confident that the problem is at the rear. My hypothesis is that round nose ammo is more forgiving of all kinds of binding during feeding. Sure most of the time the binding is on the vertical axis (such as nose dives and other feed ramp issues). In this case I think its on the horizontal axis, where the extractor is pushing the nose of the bullet slightly to the left as it attempts to chamber.

LOL listen to me...talking like I know anything.

Thanks Shlike and Bawanna. I'll send them an e-mail.

[robmac]

Thanks for posting this Tony, it jogged a few thoughts. Will be very interested to hear your results. I have the exact opposite issue with the extractor (PM9 however): it always protrudes, even when empty. I am having feed issues as well, which I'm trying to sort out in another thread, with focus on ammunition, magazine, and shooter for the moment. I've been meaning to get around to thinking about how that screwy extractor could play a role. Out on loan right now to see if an experienced shooter can get failures with assortment of ammo, but when I get it back, I will now load some cases as you did to see how it sits. Thanks for the post.

[dbracin]

Send it back to Kahr.

[tony k]

Got an RA yesterday. gonna ship it off as soon as I can. No free shipping, which I got when the frame was replaced, but not with the broken trigger bar. I'm probably going to copy my OP for the gunsmith.

[tony k]

Got my cw45 back from kahr the other day. They reworked the chamber hood and chamber rim. I haven't fired it yet but it seems to chamber rounds really well. It will even chamber rounds when I ride the slide. I'm gonna test it out with hydrashocks and hornady xtps tomorrow's.

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[Redstate]

Tony k, hope it runs good for you. By the way, does the extractor sit as deep as before?

[TennSCN]

TonyK,
Would you mind putting up some photos of Kahr's work? I, for one, would be interested in seeing what they relieved on the barrel.

[tony k]

Redstate: They didn't do anything to the extractor. I guess they disagreed with my assessment. We'll see how tomorrow goes...

Sure TennSCN. I'll put up some photos when I get a chance. The work is really subtle.

[Redstate]

Hopefully it goes well for you.

[tony k]

I put 40 rounds of hydrashocks through it without problem. I then put 100 rounds of ball ammo through it and had one FTF. I can live live with those results. Pics of the chamber hood to come when I have a chance.

[tony k]

1230612306

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[tony k]

Ok, it looks like kahr relieved the chamber entry with a polished bevel. Also looks like they did some relieving and polishing at the top.

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[tony k]

Ok. I've put 20 winchester PDX1s, 40 Federal Hydrashoks, and 40 Hornady XTPs through it. NO FAILURES :D. I've also put a couple hundred rounds of ball ammo through it. had one nosedive with the ball ammo and a seven round magazine with a worn mag spring.

I'm pretty happy. Kahr seems to have made it right.

[Redstate]

Glad to hear you are happy, tony k.