Open carry rant

[Gene Hackman]

Hello again. This has nothing to do with Kahr but just thought I'd see what other peoples opinions were. I like guns I own several and have been shooting since I was a child. I'm all for carrying concealed weapons (legally) But I really can't stand open carriers. Especially the people who carry an ar15 down the street because ''it's our right'' Open carry a pistol on your hip, sure that's cool but you're going to be the first target if crap goes down. But the ar15 people or the people who walk around with a rifle and 3 or 4 pistols attached to them are just morons. The way I see it is these retards are just begging for tighter gun control. They are an enemy to the 2nd amendment. What do you think?

[RRP]

I am not opposed to open-carry. I do not support, however, organized open-carry rallies where people sling long guns and target businesses merely to make a point about their rights. I think these rallies are counter-productive to our efforts to protect the second amendment. And, I have sometimes wondered whose side they are really representing.

[Bill K]

I CC even though it is legal for me to OC. I'm not one of the folks you're talking about BUT I see a point that they're often trying to make. The point about a right NOT exercised being easier to loose than one that is exercised. I agree that often their tactics are often counter productive especially when they get in peoples faces or look for confrontations with the police.

[ripley16]

I CC even though it is legal for me to OC. I'm not one of the folks you're talking about BUT I see a point that they're often trying to make. The point about a right NOT exercised being easier to loose than one that is exercised. I agree that often their tactics are often counter productive especially when they get in peoples faces or look for confrontations with the police.

I pretty much see it this way. I don't think open carry is as good a method of self defense, but in some cases it's the only avenue open. An over armed rally participant may be looked upon as over zealous, but how does a society measure that? If I go to church four times a week, or read four newspapers a day or openly complain about inferior elected leadership - does that make me as much of a zealot? How much use of a right is too much?

What I see as the main erosion factor in the country today is the erosion of responsibility. We, as a society, have chosen to accept mediocre as the norm and when confronted by extraordinary, we are shocked. I'd rather see ten thousand mega-armed mall commandos at a rally than ten thousand disarmed mall commandos begging for a lost freedom to be returned.

[berettabone]

Since you can't conceal a rifle, it makes it pretty tough to conceal carry. That's why they make handguns. In every part of society, there are idiots. The firearms world is no different. The posers are doing no good, and stirring up the sheep.

[Longitude Zero]

I approve of OC of handguns if the person so chooses. Open carry of rifles is profound stupidity and counter productive. Those that say you are not a true believer in the 2ND Amendment if you do not approve of OC of long guns are IDIOTS AND FOOLS!!!

[tomrkba]

Hello again. This has nothing to do with Kahr but just thought I'd see what other peoples opinions were. I like guns I own several and have been shooting since I was a child. I'm all for carrying concealed weapons (legally) But I really can't stand open carriers. Especially the people who carry an ar15 down the street because ''it's our right'' Open carry a pistol on your hip, sure that's cool but you're going to be the first target if crap goes down. But the ar15 people or the people who walk around with a rifle and 3 or 4 pistols attached to them are just morons. The way I see it is these retards are just begging for tighter gun control. They are an enemy to the 2nd amendment. What do you think?

Please read the following article that is still applicable despite its focus upon politics.

http://blog.joehuffman.org/2015/01/22/carrots-versus-sticks/

You are doing nobody a favor by attempting to use shame and negative remarks regarding people who open carry long guns. You are only generating bad will amongst the "Activist" portion of gun owners. You have ZERO power to stop them and the more you rant, the more they will carry in a way you do not like. It is far better to encourage them to lawfully open carry a handgun through positive means and pointing out any gun safety violations they committed in front of you. Logic and reason, along with good social skills, work on gun owners!

In the case of Texas, long gun open carry is the only lawful means available to exercise the right. Concealed carry is a privilege in Texas and therefore is not a right.

Long gun open carry has two purposes: 1) protect people who use a rifle to defend themselves and/or others in a public place (as in an emergency situation) and 2) it is a political reminder to politicians that if they go too far we will correct them.

I agree that general daily carry of a long guns (LGOC) is not something that should be done except in specific circumstances. The exceptions are handgun restrictions due to age and in states like Texas who ban the free expression of carry of a handgun through unconstitutional laws. I am opposed to daily long gun open carry for gun safety reasons; I have seen LGOC'ers sweep people as they flipped the muzzle up to sit. Poor handling is in excuseable and a holstered handguns is perfectly safe. It is far better to convince the person engaging in LGOC through logic and reason than it is to make them upset. They will ignore you in the future even though you may be 100% in the right.

[ScottM]

I'm a bit surprised that I agree with every post in this thread. Usually when the topic comes up on the Internet, you get a small number of vocal die-hards who can't fathom why open carry would be undesirable, or why a dozen guys showing up at Starbucks with their AR15s could be counterproductive. Then things usually polarize and go quickly downhill from there.

Same as the above posters, I don't OC because of the tactical disadvantage and I'm just not the type who likes to freak out the public for shock's sake. But I am glad I could, if it was the only way. And I'll also admit that if people didn't get freaked out about it, I sort of see a group of AR guys at Starbucks as performance art. Hey, if avante-garde artists can be all weird and (legally) irreverent in public, there's no need to freak out about ARs. Or Fez hats. Or motorcycle jackets. Or old dudes wearing pink motorcycle jackets wearing fez hats carrying ARs blowing kazoos.

Ok, sorry, that went in a weird direction for a moment... :-D

[Bawanna]

Crap, that reminds me I can't find my kazoo anyplace and I've looked everywhere.

[JohnR]

I don't like open carry of body piercings and tattoos, saggy pants, sideways baseball caps, burkas, liberalism, and texting while walking (that one especially makes you a mugger's first choice of victim. Ban those before banning open carry, because someone on the internet said so.

[ScottM]

Crap, that reminds me I can't find my kazoo anyplace and I've looked everywhere.

You do have a permit and training I hope...?

Also there's always the chance that a loved one intervened and secured that kazoo.

[sas PM9]

Hello again. This has nothing to do with Kahr but just thought I'd see what other peoples opinions were. I like guns I own several and have been shooting since I was a child. I'm all for carrying concealed weapons (legally) But I really can't stand open carriers. Especially the people who carry an ar15 down the street because ''it's our right'' Open carry a pistol on your hip, sure that's cool but you're going to be the first target if crap goes down. But the ar15 people or the people who walk around with a rifle and 3 or 4 pistols attached to them are just morons. The way I see it is these retards are just begging for tighter gun control. They are an enemy to the 2nd amendment. What do you think?

GH:

I sort of agree with you, not likely that I would do it. But, it sort of depends on the situation/location. In the heart of the city no way, no how. Out in the country, possibly but not obtrusively. Look at pictures of citizen warriors in Israel with long guns slung. riding the bus and walking casually down the street.
So, depends.

PS. Referring back to a different post; the situation in the US might (I hope not) come to a point that it becomes "open season" on a certain population, at which time we may wish to carry more, bigger, longer guns with us to insure our safety.

-steve

[muggsy]

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I think that says it all. The exercising of a right is a personal choice. It's only an issue to those who choose to make it an issue. Don't tread on me.

[LD48750]

I'd really be interested in more information on those "first target" & "tactical disadvantage" things.

I've been looking for years now & can't find a single example of an open carrier being shot first in a robbery attempt.
I can't even find an example of someone trying to rob a store where an open carrier was present.

How is hiding your gun a tactical advantage in a defensive situation?

[JohnR]

I'd really be interested in more information on those "first target" & "tactical disadvantage" things.

I've been looking for years now & can't find a single example of an open carrier being shot first in a robbery attempt.
I can't even find an example of someone trying to rob a store where an open carrier was present.

How is hiding your gun a tactical advantage in a defensive situation?
Someone on the internet said so; therefore it's true. Like FMJ overpenetrating and hitting an innocent bystander, I can't find evidence that's ever happened either.

[ScottM]

Someone on the internet said so; therefore it's true. Like FMJ overpenetrating and hitting an innocent bystander, I can't find evidence that's ever happened either.

That's possible and I haven't done the research to say. That said, another aspect is that I don't love guns enough to let them so limit my experience of the world to such a degree, where every public interaction starts with the knowledge that at least one of us is carrying a deadly weapon (my awesome wit and guitar skills notwithstanding).

Case in point - I was at an Apple store and a guy came in openly carrying a very schmantzy Kimber 1911 with pearlized handles and one of the nicest custom Galco holsters money can buy. All top-end stuff. All I saw was the amount of money and pride he had in this sidearm, and I'm sure I would have asked about it if I'd had the chance without being weird about it. All good, right? A lot of people didn't seem to care or even notice. But it immediately put a lot of others at unease, like happens when there's someone dressed all gangsta in low pantz, teeth grillz, unpredictable swagger, etc. I didn't see a single person smile at him (though Apple customer service was professional but not exceedingly friendly). Then armed security arrived and asked him to put the sidearm in the car because of complaints. He complied and returned to finish his purchase, still wearing his OWB holster.

What did he accomplish in the process other than impressing a single person in the store (me) with his gear? Sure, he forced the world around him to stand up and take notice, and I'm sure he struck a withering blow to gun-haters everywhere (rolling eyes), and he may have even relished in other's emotional response to his carry, but that's about all he got to experience of the world that evening. How considerate was that to the kids and parents and students and general public just out to have a drama-free time?

I'm fortunate to have friendly interactions with random people every day as a course of my job, hobbies and day-to-day living. Why on earth would I want to limit my experience of the world to only the most fearful, cynical and potentially drama-filled moments? We shape those interactions as much as other people do.

[Longitude Zero]

Like FMJ overpenetrating and hitting an innocent bystander, I can't find evidence that's ever happened either.

Hitting an innocent I have never seen. Exiting the body of the one shot with it seen it many time in homicide and assault investigations. The term thru and thru comes to mind. Virtually every doctor or nurse in and emergency room has seen it.

[Ikeo74]

Hitting an innocent I have never seen. Exiting the body of the one shot with it seen it many time in homicide and assault investigations. The term thru and thru comes to mind. Virtually every doctor or nurse in and emergency room has seen it.
Don't forget LBJ was shot with a bullet that entered and exited through JFK. (That is the claim) I don't believe it.

[JohnR]

No one dares complain that the saggy pants and the penguin strut make them nervous, the Apple employees would throw out the complainers for being "racist." Think about the typical Apple consumer demographic. (We have Apple products, but are NOT the typical demographic. I always feel very out of place in their store.)

People don't kill people, wackos and thugs kill people!

[Longitude Zero]

Don't forget LBJ was shot with a bullet that entered and exited through JFK. (That is the claim) I don't believe it.

I think you are referring to Governor Connelly. LBJ was not even in the same car.

[Bawanna]

In a conspiracy facts seldom really matter.

[RevRay]

Many years ago I listened to a symphonic orchestra comprised of only kazoo-concocted instruments. It was quite good actually ... though a little nasal sounding!

[ScottM]

Many years ago I listened to a symphonic orchestra comprised of only kazoo-concocted instruments. It was quite good actually ... though a little nasal sounding!

Couldn't possibly be any worse than bagpipes I suppose! :-D

[tomrkba]

I think there was one instance of an OCer being targetted, but I do not have the article. I do know one man in Centreville, Virginia was jumped and his gun was stolen. This happened recently again to some other guy. Theft is my primary fear with OC.

On the other hand, we have the Waffle House incident where the thugs saw two men open carrying and the group decided to wait in their car until they left. Only a local cop's intuition stopped the robbery because he saw them sitting there and decided to investigate. There is also a convenience store robbery where the robber did not see the openly carried gun. The OCer was in line waiting for the register. He drew his single action revolver and fired only a few times before the trigger on his POS revolver broke. He won the fight, but I hope he made a better firearm choice.

There are a few more incidents for and against, but it is generally 50/50 and rare in any event. This tells me that good guys tend not to get into many fights (which is good and the 2013 FBI data on justified homicides support this) and that everything is situational. Criminals psych themselves up before the crime and can get tunnel vision too, miss obvious things (such as a guy with a gun a few feet away), and make other mistakes.

[Armybrat]

Most of the guys discussing this topic on Texas Gun Talk are pretty angry about some of the dumb tactics employed by a local OC advocate group in Austin because they are triggering more negative backlash than positive with the media & politicians.

I am in favor of OC for those who wish to do it, but intimidating people by walking around in a Starbuck's with your AR "at the ready" and crowding into a state representative's office packing M4geries isn't the brightest way to go about "educating" the opposition & ignorant. It just fuels the "look at those crazy redneck gunnuts" attitude.

Rallies outside the state capitol & peaceful public street marches are more likely to win support instead of alienating the undecided. Don't put the private businesses on the spot, as we have already seen some of the negative results.

And as for the kazoo fanboys here, those things are pretty annoying like those dam horns the soccer nuts toot at the World Cup games.

I prefer my Jew's Harp any day...

https://christopherfountain.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/jews-harp-jpeg.jpg

[Longitude Zero]

Most of the guys discussing this topic on Texas Gun Talk are pretty angry about some of the dumb tactics employed by a local OC advocate group in Austin because they are triggering more negative backlash than positive with the media & politicians.

I am in favor of OC for those who wish to do it, but intimidating people by walking around in a Starbuck's with your AR "at the ready" and crowding into a state representative's office packing M4geries isn't the brightest way to go about "educating" the opposition & ignorant. It just fuels the "look at those crazy redneck gunnuts" attitude.

Rallies outside the state capitol & peaceful public street marches are more likely to win support instead of alienating the undecided. Don't put the private businesses on the spot, as we have already seen some of the negative results.

Agreed. As a corollary, you can drive a car with your feet but that DOES NOT make it a good dang idea. Long gun OC is playing directly into the anti's hands. That is a pure and simple FACT. If you do not believe this reality look at the backlash that happens at OC of rifle events. Nuff said.

[Armybrat]

Got a chuckle seeing this tactic at the Capitol rally today by some guys from Texarkana:

http://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10173658_1037694572911242_5519945362936602778_n.jp g?oh=36e839128c01407cc2223bcfd83c2183&oe=55582891

[JimBianchi]

RRP said it best.

[berettabone]

That's possible and I haven't done the research to say. That said, another aspect is that I don't love guns enough to let them so limit my experience of the world to such a degree, where every public interaction starts with the knowledge that at least one of us is carrying a deadly weapon (my awesome wit and guitar skills notwithstanding).

Case in point - I was at an Apple store and a guy came in openly carrying a very schmantzy Kimber 1911 with pearlized handles and one of the nicest custom Galco holsters money can buy. All top-end stuff. All I saw was the amount of money and pride he had in this sidearm, and I'm sure I would have asked about it if I'd had the chance without being weird about it. All good, right? A lot of people didn't seem to care or even notice. But it immediately put a lot of others at unease, like happens when there's someone dressed all gangsta in low pantz, teeth grillz, unpredictable swagger, etc. I didn't see a single person smile at him (though Apple customer service was professional but not exceedingly friendly). Then armed security arrived and asked him to put the sidearm in the car because of complaints. He complied and returned to finish his purchase, still wearing his OWB holster.

What did he accomplish in the process other than impressing a single person in the store (me) with his gear? Sure, he forced the world around him to stand up and take notice, and I'm sure he struck a withering blow to gun-haters everywhere (rolling eyes), and he may have even relished in other's emotional response to his carry, but that's about all he got to experience of the world that evening. How considerate was that to the kids and parents and students and general public just out to have a drama-free time?

I'm fortunate to have friendly interactions with random people every day as a course of my job, hobbies and day-to-day living. Why on earth would I want to limit my experience of the world to only the most fearful, cynical and potentially drama-filled moments? We shape those interactions as much as other people do.

My business with Apple would have ended, when they asked me to put my firearm in the car because of complaints. I then would have made a purchase elsewhere. If my experiences of the world are limited, so be it. These fearful gun haters are missing out on meeting some of the nicest people on the planet, legal firearms owners, because they allow their fears to get the best of them.

[ScottM]

It wasn't Apple that asked him to leave, it was shopping center security. Apple was busy selling him something expensive and pretty.

[Dbholfo]

I spend a few hours Wednesday thru Saturday pulling orders for the members of a Sam's Club. We have a guy who comes in occasionally with a pistol on his side. Few people give him a second glance.

I'm glad NC is an open carry state for 2A reasons but also because if my concealment is revealed it becomes open carry. I never expect that to happen nor do I expect to have to draw. Who know? I'm ready.

[berettabone]

It wasn't Apple that asked him to leave, it was shopping center security. Apple was busy selling him something expensive and pretty.

Unless they had no firearms allowed postings, I would have told security to go f themselves, and even if they did have postings, I would have suggested to Apple, that they may want to move to a more friendly location..............................still would have walked out with nothing but my firearm and a smile......................

[ScottM]

Unless they had no firearms allowed postings, I would have told security to go f themselves, and even if they did have postings, I would have suggested to Apple, that they may want to move to a more friendly location..............................still would have walked out with nothing but my firearm and a smile......................

That location is pretty good for retailers - very vibrant combination of indoor and outdoor shopping, entertainment and restaurants, so I doubt Apple is hurting because of the plaza's gun policy. That's just the reality of it. There are affluent customers within 15 minutes in every direction. but it's not far from a less affluent part of town, so while you and I would agree that's a prudent place to lawfully carry, property management decided to post CPZ signs in their parking garages, probably thinking that thugs can read and won't risk being charged with criminal trespassing if they bring a gun. Stupid, I know, and indeed to your point another plaza 20 miles away is (mostly) CHL-friendly, so you can always visit that other Apple Store instead.

[TheTman]

The only reason I can think of to open carry a long gun into a town, is that perhaps you were bird hunting on the outskirts of a small town, and ran out of ammo and walked a little ways to the hardware store for a box of shells, and you needed to take your shotgun with you or it might not be there when you return. That seems pretty far fetched to me, but was the only thing I could think of. Or else as part of the honor guard in a parade or some event.

[tomrkba]

The only reason I can think of to open carry a long gun into a town, is that perhaps you were bird hunting on the outskirts of a small town, and ran out of ammo and walked a little ways to the hardware store for a box of shells, and you needed to take your shotgun with you or it might not be there when you return. That seems pretty far fetched to me, but was the only thing I could think of. Or else as part of the honor guard in a parade or some event.

Or a good guy just shot one or more bad guys who deserved it. Cops will charge people with ridiculous charges in the hopes something sticks. Open carry of long guns prevents such silliness.

[ScottM]

Or a good guy just shot one or more bad guys who deserved it. Cops will charge people with ridiculous charges in the hopes something sticks. Open carry of long guns prevents such silliness.

Prevents? Really?!

Ok, I'm curious. Have there been actual self-defense shootings in public places where the good guy was carrying a rifle? And was he/she then exonerated by the court? How about any cases where the rifle was a military assault-styled one?

In an environment where at least one well-known self-defense attorney cautioned against Zombie Max bullets for concern that a prosecutor might convince a court you couldn't tell the difference between reality and movie fantasy and were looking for a reason to reenact 28 Days Later, one has to wonder how a court would view an *assault rifle* in a public self-defense case. Hint: I bet it would be rare for the defendant to prevail over an impression that he was out to provoke confrontation, Call of Duty style. Heck, even armed with just a handgun, Zimmerman faced critique that he was spoiling for a hero situation. Imagine how his case would have gone had he slung an AR.

[tomrkba]

Prevents? Really?!

Ok, I'm curious. Have there been actual self-defense shootings in public places where the good guy was carrying a rifle? And was he/she then exonerated by the court? How about any cases where the rifle was a military assault-styled one?

In an environment where at least one well-known self-defense attorney cautioned against Zombie Max bullets for concern that a prosecutor might convince a court you couldn't tell the difference between reality and movie fantasy and were looking for a reason to reenact 28 Days Later, one has to wonder how a court would view an *assault rifle* in a public self-defense case. Hint: I bet it would be rare for the defendant to prevail over an impression that he was out to provoke confrontation, Call of Duty style. Heck, even armed with just a handgun, Zimmerman faced critique that he was spoiling for a hero situation. Imagine how his case would have gone had he slung an AR.

Your response is based upon emotion and speculation (except for the bit about a case--not sure we have had one yet). The point I was making is that if someone had to use a long gun in defense off private property, they would not be charged with a POP (pissing off police) or other BS charge.

This also protects hunters and sport shooters in public for whatever reason. Perhaps they are walking to the gunsmith and forgot the case; people do all sorts of weird stuff. They are not committing a crimer merely because some anti-rights wanker gets on their cell phone and whines to authorities.

Regardless, it is very clear to me that many gun owners demand others carry as they do. The fact of the matter is that people will open carry their long guns in public. I would rather they did not as a general rule. But, the more we apply negative pressure on them, the more we embolden the antis (they sense weakness and want to take advantage). This is something they will attempt to regulate--and tack on more gun control if they can. Furthermore, it also removes us from the conversation because those OC'ing will IGNORE anything we have to say. We have no recourse at that point--except a new law forbidding open carry. Such a law does no good for anyone considering that concealed carry is a PRIVILEGE is most states and open carry is a RIGHT in most states. Keep this in mind the next time you start bitching at someone open carrying. All they have to do is walk away and nothing you say matters. Any action you take politically only helps the antis--let's not help them.

[muggsy]

The liberals like to divide and conquer. Any gun owner who opposes open carry is helping the the liberals to divide us. I never criticize another man for doing something legal particularly when what he is doing is supported by our constitution.

[ScottM]

The liberals like to divide and conquer. Any gun owner who opposes open carry is helping the the liberals to divide us. I never criticize another man for doing something legal particularly when what he is doing is supported by our constitution.

We don't need groupthink to be rightous about 2A. Saying that OC rifle demonstrations at Starbucks aren't helpful, isn't the same as sleeping with Jane Fonda.

[Armybrat]

There is a smart way to get OC passed, and there is a dumb way to get it deep-sixed by cowardly politicians.

I'm rooting for the smart guys and am assisting their approach.

[Longitude Zero]

Cops will charge people with ridiculous charges in the hopes something sticks. Open carry of long guns prevents such silliness.

WRONG. Officers arrest based upon probably cause. If a person is "charged" it is the decision of the Prosecuting Attorney. Thus endeth the lesson on legal facts. Open carry ends the silliness of WHAT?

[ScottM]

WRONG. Officers arrest based upon probably cause. If a person is "charged" it is the decision of the Prosecuting Attorney. Thus endeth the lesson on legal facts. Open carry ends the silliness of WHAT?

Decorum. Unless a person likes self-righteous AR-15 fans painted into Norman Rockwell scenes. Lordy I hope we don't adopt that as a new American norm, or truly the terrorists will have won by turning us into a paranoid, polarized and militarized nation.

[tomrkba]

WRONG. Officers arrest based upon probably cause. If a person is "charged" it is the decision of the Prosecuting Attorney. Thus endeth the lesson on legal facts. Open carry ends the silliness of WHAT?

.

It is clear to me that most gun owners desire only the appearance of liberty. The behavior of many posters in this thread reveals how fractured our side is and how we are willing to politically ostracize those we do not like. Many of us are not willing to work with such people in an attempt to influence their behavior. Fortunately, organizations such as VCDL exist to counteract this behavior because they will work with any reasonable person while working on the Virginia legislature. Their numbers are also suppressed because of gun owners who refuse to come together in common cause (it only has around 3,000 paid members in a state with hundreds of thousands CHP holders).

Look at the behavior of the Republican party today. They were given a very powerful mandate on the ACA, guns and immigration. We helped put them there and they have funded the ACA and all but given up on illegal immigration. Mark Levine noted recently that the party is acting like it lost. Michael Bane pointed out in his blog that we have significantly influenced many elections over the past two decades, but have received very little in return from Republicans. They forget us the moment the election party ends. They can afford to since we do not know what we want as a group and refuse to speak as one loud voice. As a group, we are selfish assholes who don't work well together. Why would the Republican party follow through for us when we act like this and they can get our votes for free?

[Nytcrawler93]

Umm...Republicans are going to take a major beat down in the 2016 election. The numbers reverse for them in a bad way. This was not a mandate election, it was a numerical fluke election. Research a bit. Anyway, in Colorado we still don't have enough votes to undo the mag ban which REALLY pisses me off. The Republicans need to stop being for idiotic stuff so we can take our state back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[berettabone]

Decorum. Unless a person likes self-righteous AR-15 fans painted into Norman Rockwell scenes. Lordy I hope we don't adopt that as a new American norm, or truly the terrorists will have won by turning us into a paranoid, polarized and militarized nation.

Agreed...........................carry around a handgun on your belt....................it sends the same message..............whatever message your trying to send.......................................

[JohnR]

Decorum. Unless a person likes self-righteous AR-15 fans painted into Norman Rockwell scenes. Lordy I hope we don't adopt that as a new American norm, or truly the terrorists will have won by turning us into a paranoid, polarized and militarized nation.
I respectfully disagree.

http://www.nps.gov/mima/historyculture/images/Minute-Man-cms.jpg https://danwoog.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/minuteman-statue.jpg

http://cointrackers.com/img/coins/2000-d-massachusetts-state-quarter.png

With what ISIS is doing, we damn well better turn into a militarized nation.

[Longitude Zero]

.

It is clear to me that most gun owners desire only the appearance of liberty. The behavior of many posters in this thread reveals how fractured our side is and how we are willing to politically ostracize those we do not like. Many of us are not willing to work with such people in an attempt to influence their behavior. Fortunately, organizations such as VCDL exist to counteract this behavior because they will work with any reasonable person while working on the Virginia legislature. Their numbers are also suppressed because of gun owners who refuse to come together in common cause (it only has around 3,000 paid members in a state with hundreds of thousands CHP holders).

Look at the behavior of the Republican party today. They were given a very powerful mandate on the ACA, guns and immigration. We helped put them there and they have funded the ACA and all but given up on illegal immigration. Mark Levine noted recently that the party is acting like it lost. Michael Bane pointed out in his blog that we have significantly influenced many elections over the past two decades, but have received very little in return from Republicans. They forget us the moment the election party ends. They can afford to since we do not know what we want as a group and refuse to speak as one loud voice. As a group, we are selfish assholes who don't work well together. Why would the Republican party follow through for us when we act like this and they can get our votes for free?

This is more of the If a right is not exercised it is lost tripe. Discretion is almost always the better part of valor. You can legally drive a car with your feet but it is incredibly stupid to do so. In case you have not noticed the number of guns sold is at record numbers oh yeah and here is an educated newsflash that the number of anti-firearms laws proposed and passed is at historic lows. The antis' are being turned back in droves because of concerted and inclusive efforts. They have had such non existent effect nationally and on statewide basis they are going to each individual town and city to get traction. I have no clue what you are looking at but the so called schism you mentioned is illusory and imaginary.

[berettabone]

IF some of these rifle carrying 2nd amendment people were serious, professional, tactful , concerned, respectful people, I can agree with their statements and their public responses.............but 80% of these people, when you see or talk to them, are the same people you view on the TV, and say, WTF????????????

[Longitude Zero]

IF some of these rifle carrying 2nd amendment people were serious, professional, tactful , concerned, respectful people, I can agree with their statements and their public responses.............but 80% of these people, when you see or talk to them, are the same people you view on the TV, and say, WTF????????????

Exactly!

[Bawanna]

I see the same thing at our gun shows. The way some of them dress and act just really don't do anything to help any sort of pro gun effort.

I trip them up quite frequently, I sometimes dress up sort of business casual, I don't go so far as to wear a tie or nothing insane like that but nice dress clothes (at least by my standards).

The 350lb dudes with the boonie hats and camo pants down to their knees don't do anything to make us look good.

[b4uqzme]

I see the same thing at our gun shows. The way some of them dress and act just really don't do anything to help any sort of pro gun effort.

I trip them up quite frequently, I sometimes dress up sort of business casual, I don't go so far as to wear a tie or nothing insane like that but nice dress clothes (at least by my standards).

The 350lb dudes with the boonie hats and camo pants down to their knees don't do anything to make us look good.

Well said! Same goes for pretty much all of life IMHO.

[ScottM]

Discretion is almost always the better part of valor.

You sir, are at risk for being called insightful.

We have a gun range/store near me that's clean, brightly lit, has nice restrooms, has friendly staff great at fielding beginner questions, holds women-only classes on self-defense and introduction to shooting, and you see people of all races, genders, religions and political proclivities there, even folks who never grew up around guns. It's great, and I've met so many people who got their start with firearms there, including a few that I started. That place does so much to legitimize gun ownership.

Contrast that with a range just north of me that shut down last year. They had a long-standing reputation for being darkly lit, poorly ventilated, dirty shelves and bathrooms, and grumpy with newcomers, not to mention condescending and downright leery towards women. I went there by myself, but rarely with girlfriends or beginners because I didn't want my friends to feel like they were walking into a scary underculture that viewed them with almost a fanatical contempt.

I think that's exactly the kind of comparison we're drawing here. Dirty, frothy tacticools slinging AKs at a genteel coffee shop don't make most people comfortable, least of not when they're carrying kids who aren't yet ready to glimpse the world's gnarly bits. Typical folks, when later presented with gun laws, will remember how they felt the last time they saw that gun in person - rudely imposed upon and possibly downright scared at their favorite Java joint.

I once overheard a political strategist say "faced with the choice of feeling righteous or feeling effective, I'll take effective every time." I think it comes down to what we as gun owners truly want to accomplish with the general public. Self-righteous indignation in the face of our political enemies, or effective acceptance and even support of sensible rationale.

[Longitude Zero]

You sir, are at risk for being called insightful.

I once overheard a political strategist say "faced with the choice of feeling righteous or feeling effective, I'll take effective every time." I think it comes down to what we as gun owners truly want to accomplish with the general public. Self-righteous indignation in the face of our political enemies, or effective acceptance and even support of sensible rationale.

Thanks and perish the thought of insight, LOL. Your analogy is perfect and spot on. An old politician told me something similar. He said, I will let you write legislation and I will wright the rules of procedure and beat you and your legislation every time.

[ltxi]

^^^^...x2

[knkali]

This is more of the If a right is not exercised it is lost tripe. Discretion is almost always the better part of valor. You can legally drive a car with your feet but it is incredibly stupid to do so. In case you have not noticed the number of guns sold is at record numbers oh yeah and here is an educated newsflash that the number of anti-firearms laws proposed and passed is at historic lows. The antis' are being turned back in droves because of concerted and inclusive efforts. They have had such non existent effect nationally and on statewide basis they are going to each individual town and city to get traction. I have no clue what you are looking at but the so called schism you mentioned is illusory and imaginary.

doesn't seem so where I am from---Kalifornia. Sales are high but the DOJ approval of guns for sale here is dwindling away.

[Longitude Zero]

Sales are high but the DOJ approval of guns for sale here is dwindling away.

Troubling and sadly true.

[el_presidente]

I am not opposed to open-carry. I do not support, however, organized open-carry rallies where people sling long guns and target businesses merely to make a point about their rights. I think these rallies are counter-productive to our efforts to protect the second amendment. And, I have sometimes wondered whose side they are really representing.

perfectly said.

[tomrkba]

Open carry in Arkansas as a political tool worked and it now appears that the state has constitutional carry:

http://www.ammoland.com/2015/02/controversy-about-arkansas-constitutional-carry-over/

I would love to know the story of what went on behind the scenes. I am sure people worked long and hard to get the clarification passed. This seems to me to be the way that works since it has worked here in Virginia (more as a defense against bad laws) and other states. The OC movement appears to need a political arm in addition to an activist component. They compliment each other and individuals can operate in either or both, as they see fit.

[tv_racin_fan]

Trouble is in many of these states where people have carried long guns the open carry of a handgun is illegal but the open carry of a long gun is legal. They are protesting the absurdity of the laws in relation to the second amendment. There was a time when only those who had nefarious intent concealed a handgun.

As someone else pointed out it is amazing how many who profess to support the second amendment who don't actually seem to believe the words therein. Seems to me you either believe the right is not to be infringed or you don't. In my opinion forcing me to conceal carry is an infringement no different than forcing me to get a permit to carry is. Perhaps one day some will get their wish and only the musket will be legal to keep and bear, I imagine those same people will be shocked when I walk in with a brace of sea service pistols hanging off my belt.

[CPTKILLER]

Say what you like. I'm going on one at 3:00 PM here in Austin, Texas at SXSW!

In Texas, we are working hard to bring this about.

[ScottM]

Say what you like. I'm going on one at 3:00 PM here in Austin, Texas at SXSW!

In Texas, we are working hard to bring this about.

Smile a lot, be open to conversation, calm and light-hearted. If you guys are going to speak for gun owners everywhere, then at least make us look like we're normal-ish. ;-)

[muggsy]

Gun owners are perfectly normal. Where are you coming from?

[ScottM]

Gun owners are perfectly normal. Where are you coming from?

{Sigh} You can't possibly be serious? Read the 7 pages of thread posts about fellow owner's concerns over open carry events, and them potentially causing more harm than good by forcing non-owners to perceive a threat to social decorum and safety. You and I may see gun owners as normal, but the non-owning public does not, and if their first exposure to guns is at a Starbucks with kids in tow, with grizzly-looking tacticools sporting "look at me I'm fabulous" tricked-out ARs, how would you expect them to react? Probably the same way YOU would at a Gay Pride rally.

My suggestion is that if this group absolutely must exercise their rights and foist upon the public an intrusion into other's decorum, then at least be friendly, happy and open-hearted about it to win over as many people as they repulse.

Is that so hard for you to understand? Beautiful day here. I'd headed out for a motorcycle ride with friends. Enjoy the bunker.

[xsailer]

I'd like to say that was a tongue in cheek comment from Muggsy but one may wonder from time to time.

[ltxi]

Gun owners are perfectly normal. Where are you coming from?

Usta be, anyway.

[LD48750]

{Sigh} You can't possibly be serious? Read the 7 pages of thread posts about fellow owner's concerns over open carry events, and them potentially causing more harm than good by forcing non-owners to perceive a threat to social decorum and safety. You and I may see gun owners as normal, but the non-owning public does not, and if their first exposure to guns is at a Starbucks with kids in tow, with grizzly-looking tacticools sporting "look at me I'm fabulous" tricked-out ARs, how would you expect them to react? Probably the same way YOU would at a Gay Pride rally.

My suggestion is that if this group absolutely must exercise their rights and foist upon the public an intrusion into other's decorum, then at least be friendly, happy and open-hearted about it to win over as many people as they repulse.

Is that so hard for you to understand? Beautiful day here. I'd headed out for a motorcycle ride with friends. Enjoy the bunker.

So... Your answer is to run off with a motorcycle gang & terrify all the elderly ladies & children?

Is that the image you want to project?

[ScottM]

So... Your answer is to run off with a motorcycle gang & terrify all the elderly ladies & children?

Is that the image you want to project?

Good point. My motorcycle gang IS pretty scary looking...

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/16/43fda80d245e715df46689e575613a12.jpg

[knkali]

hold me mommy I am scared

[ScottM]

hold me mommy I am scared

That must be the soulless ginger chick. She's the meanest of the gang. I saw her tell kids to stop running through the halls once.

[knkali]

That must be the soulless ginger chick. She's the meanest of the gang. I saw her tell kids to stop running through the halls once.

yeah and they didn't even have scissors.

[LD48750]

She the one that cut off that dudes hand off?

I've seen Hells Angles before, I know what you people do......

I'm gonna call a cop with an open carried GUN to protect me.

[ltxi]

I've seen hell's angles(sic), too. For the last 28 years exclusively with current wife. :spider:

[ScottM]

I've seen hell's angles, too. For the last 28 years exclusively with current wife. :spider:

Oh snap! [emoji13]

[Armybrat]

As soon as Texas OC goes into effect, I may get a rig like this for my walker:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/motorcycle-revolver-holster-leather-saddle.jpg

[ltxi]

^ Seen that before and have always admired that rig! Don't know owns it but I'd be mighty pleased to buy him or her a fifth or two of good Tennessee whiskey and/or a case of great beer.

[Bawanna]

Ditto that here. Fine, fine looking rig. Seen it and something about the guy that makes them but it's been a long while, can't remember the details.

[ScottM]

Hand tooled leather. Three of the best words in the English language.

[xsailer]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the car in the background.

[ltxi]

No need for anyone who's seen this pic before. And/or otherwise...your point?

[xsailer]

Had it been seen before? I have no point other than observing the juxtaposition of subjects, what's your point?

[Bawanna]

Juxtaposition??? Is that kind of like the Japanese basket trick? I gotta go look that one up.

[Armybrat]

This here is a juxtaposition:

http://globerove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/antique-belgian-double-barrel-shotgun-480x380.jpg

[Bawanna]

Well heck I got one of them, I always called it a scattergun. Or sometimes a persuader.

[muggsy]

Juxtaposition? I thought that meant that she was on top? Now I'm confused. :confused: :)

[b4uqzme]

Smiley asked me the other evening; "Where'd you learn that move?" Juxtaposition I picked up from reading the Kama Sutra baby! :cool:

[ltxi]

Had it been seen before? I have no point other than observing the juxtaposition of subjects, what's your point?

I don't see it as that. Police and nice bikes, guns, and saddles ain't exclusive. Particularly in the southwest.

[Armybrat]

Juxtaposition? I thought that meant that she was on top? Now I'm confused. :confused: :)

Now you're talking about over & unders. Ain't got nuthin' to do with the discussion.