+P+

[marcinstl]

has anybody ever shot Underwood UA131 - 115 GR (gold dot), Muzzle Energy : 501 ft. lbs, Muzzle Velocity : 1400 FPS out of their Kahr? recoil controllable? gun ok with it?

[berettabone]

I never have, but I guarantee you will get answers that say gun not ok with it.

[Ikeo74]

Why would you want to shoot +P+ Ammo with that much pressure and velocity? If you need more power get a bigger gun.

[Redstate]

Simply no need or desire for. Also, as indicated above, the Kahr is not rated for +p+. The Kahr website says Kahrs are rated to +p: http://www.kahr.com/faq.asp#q4

[ripley16]

Early Kahr K9s were indeed advertised as +P+ tolerant. Most any quality handgun these days will function with hot ammo, as will your Kahr, though a steady diet will degrade the gun faster. You will not get the speed advertised as that is most likely measured in a 5" barrel, (a larger duty pistol). The occasional and limited amount of practice will do no harm except to accelerate maintenance.

Many, if not most LE agencies use hot ammo, also in limited consumption without problem. Moderation is the key.

[marcinstl]

Why would you want to shoot +P+ Ammo with that much pressure and velocity? If you need more power get a bigger gun.
most of the targets I'd be shooting are very fat, but well muscled- think of huge charging rhino's(and other dangerous game found around metro areas). a double barrel .500 Nitro would be good, but hard to carry. if you do an amateur study of ballistics and watch gel-test videos, study coroners reports, etc. you'll see that bigger is not always better, it's speed that gets the job done. look at the difference between .38spl and .357mag, the additional 300-400 fps really jumps the muzzle energy up. 9mm +P or +P+, is up there in muzzle energy with the .357mag and .45acp +P rounds. I'm thinking maybe an extra power recoil spring might be in order? more grip tape for the CW9? (Kahr says the guns are +P rated, that's good to know).

[Redstate]

Muzzle velocity certainly makes a difference when you are talking about rifle velocity; however, when it comes to small pistols, not so much. I follow the heavier bullet (Fackler) rather than the lighter faster bullet in small pistols. My preferred carry for my MK9 is the 147 grain HST.

[hardluk1]

Try to find a handgun rated for +P+ is a long shot but law enforcement has used federal and speer over the years regularly. +P+ is nothing new . I have tried there +P+ but stay with there +P ammo for all family 9mm pistols .

I use there ammo in 124gr +P 9mm and 155gr 40 and 200gr +P 45 all gold dots bullets as the price is good , velocity is very consistent and holidays sales has no shipping charges . Practice with normal velocity and shoot the carry ammo in the mags each month . Recoil ?? I don't notice a difference but others may . Even in my small cm9 kahr the +P+ I tried was controllable but more flash and no improvement in velocity over the +P . Longer 4 or 4 1/2" barrel might be different .

[Bawanna]

It's my understanding that +P has a SAAMI specification. +P+ does not so it's a bit of a gray area.

One reason I prefer 45. Even if the threat is too fat and it doesn't penetrate enough to kill it still knocks em down so I can seek a new zip code.

[marcinstl]

if your getting bored waiting for the half time show go over here http://guninstructor.net/Strasborg_Tests.pdf and read about killing goats with various calibers and loads (all very scientific).
the results are rated for velocity, energy, momentum and average time to incapacitation. the winners seem to be the Magsafe and Glaser rounds that go very fast and carry compressed shot inside the bullet. this form of bullet explodes after contact and dumps the full force of the round into the target. holes where the bullet went in, no exit hole, ER surgeons worst nightmare inside. the tests I've seen on the Underwood +P+ gold dot round says that where the average 115 gr. Speer Golt Dot will expand to .4-.5", the Underwood round expands to .8", with about the same energy as a good .45 round. I assume there are no assassins reading this, only CCW/ defensive shooters who would only want to "stop a threat", the average time to incapacitation results should be of interest.

[340pd]

The goat shooting study was interesting but modern technology has made that test very outdated.

I spent all day Friday in our range with a ballistics expert from ATK. A wide variety of SD/police issue ammo of various calibers was shot into ballistic gel.

Summed up by the representative. There is absolutely no significant difference in caliber when shot into gel through denim or auto glass which were the two mediums we used during testing.

I am not speaking for the company, or representative, but what was said, "9mm is perfectly adequate to do anything a 40, 357sig, or .45 will do and the benefit of the 9mm over the others was the ability to control the gun far better which resulted in more accurate shots on target, not to mention the higher capacity round count, and the added cost benefit to municipalities. Quick quote from the rep was "In today's world, a bigger hole does not mean a quicker stop"

Penetration into the gel with both clad and bonded ammo was very close to 12" with every caliber of premium ammo they shot including .223 which fragmented and split into tiny pieces but still made it to the 12" line.

They do make specialty welded ammo that held together for longer distances in gel but over penetration was of concern.

The commercial Federal Prairie Dog ammo was what they recommended for everyday police use in 5.56/.223. The LE name is different, the round inside the box is not.

I asked about pre-fragmented loads and the penetration ran about 4" through two layers of denim into the gel. Not something the cops would ever use.

My deduction from the seminar and demonstration was the 40, and 357sig could be losing a lot of LE business nationally as many agencies are rapidly going back to 9mm as the round of choice.

[marcinstl]

340pd,
thanks for the info. the goat killing was back in the 90's. much more scientific then when the Army was testing the 1911 at the Chicago stockyards. for defense shooting you don't want to kill a goat or cow, but wouldn't it be great to knock it right off it's feet. kind of the difference between a 12ga. slug and a 12ga. "bean bag". here's one of my favorite reviewers, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ7ri9wa728 explaining the compromises in expansion and penetration. here's another test, this time it's +P+ and a 147gr. bullet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c
maybe load the magazine up with some Glaser Silver Safety Slugs for the first 2 shots, then go to the +P or +P+ ammo? (all of this ammo is loaded for .38spl).

[berettabone]

Buy a cannon..................................

[340pd]

The test results on your YouTube reviewer, (I like him as well) were very much the same as I experienced in our test with ATK. 12-14" penetration. ATK, which was actually downselling their higher priced ammo was, why spend the extra money for more speed and less firearm control if the standard round does the same thing and gives the shooter far more muzzle control?

Regardless, I still use in all my carry guns, (after testing for reliability in each of them) the exact same ammo as my local police carry in their guns. Makes it much easier if, god forbid, I ever need to go to court.

[muggsy]

Muzzle velocity certainly makes a difference when you are talking about rifle velocity; however, when it comes to small pistols, not so much. I follow the heavier bullet (Fackler) rather than the lighter faster bullet in small pistols. My preferred carry for my MK9 is the 147 grain HST.

+1 I like that kind of thinking.

[muggsy]

The goat shooting study was interesting but modern technology has made that test very outdated.

I spent all day Friday in our range with a ballistics expert from ATK. A wide variety of SD/police issue ammo of various calibers was shot into ballistic gel.

Summed up by the representative. There is absolutely no significant difference in caliber when shot into gel through denim or auto glass which were the two mediums we used during testing.

I am not speaking for the company, or representative, but what was said, "9mm is perfectly adequate to do anything a 40, 357sig, or .45 will do and the benefit of the 9mm over the others was the ability to control the gun far better which resulted in more accurate shots on target, not to mention the higher capacity round count, and the added cost benefit to municipalities. Quick quote from the rep was "In today's world, a bigger hole does not mean a quicker stop"

Penetration into the gel with both clad and bonded ammo was very close to 12" with every caliber of premium ammo they shot including .223 which fragmented and split into tiny pieces but still made it to the 12" line.

They do make specialty welded ammo that held together for longer distances in gel but over penetration was of concern.

The commercial Federal Prairie Dog ammo was what they recommended for everyday police use in 5.56/.223. The LE name is different, the round inside the box is not.

I asked about pre-fragmented loads and the penetration ran about 4" through two layers of denim into the gel. Not something the cops would ever use.

My deduction from the seminar and demonstration was the 40, and 357sig could be losing a lot of LE business nationally as many agencies are rapidly going back to 9mm as the round of choice.

Too much penetration is far better than not enough penetration. If someone is dumb enough to be standing behind the S.O.B. that I'm shooting into, shame on them.

[berettabone]

Muzzle velocity certainly makes a difference when you are talking about rifle velocity; however, when it comes to small pistols, not so much. I follow the heavier bullet (Fackler) rather than the lighter faster bullet in small pistols. My preferred carry for my MK9 is the 147 grain HST.

I also use this ammo..........................................

[marcinstl]

do you think the jury would like "extreme zombie killer" better than "safety slug"?
I'll look around for a box of Federal 9BPLE (+P+ 115gr. Hy-Shok) one time favored round by Il. State Police, or anything similar. want to see what the recoil, flash is like. also see if it's hot enough to go to a heavier recoil spring.

[berettabone]

There are differences of opinion, when it comes to the legal aspects of certain types of ammo, whether one type or another has an impact on a court or jury..........................