Found solution to FTF and failure to return to battery on CW 380

[tigman250]

Bought a CW 380 in December, I shot 200 rounds through it in the first couple outings, 100 rounds of Remington and 100 of Fiocchi. The Fiocchi was terrible, it fell short of battery about 90% of the time, the Remington ran "better" but still failed at least 30% of the time. The problem seemed to be the extractor, when the round was at an angle going into the chamber it was binding on the hook of the extractor, the Fiocchi rims were .015" thicker than the Remingtons and both were gouged from the extractor. Originally I tried simply deburring and softening the sharp corners on the extractor, this defiantly helped but failure to return to battery was still a huge problem. I wanted to try adding a little more clearance between the breech face and extractor hook but the extractor was already pretty minimal so I didn't want to machine anything off the hook, and removing material from the breech face is not an option, after some thought (and buying a spare extractor!) I decided to remove some material off of the front of the pin located at the rear of the extractor which would allow the extractor to move forward. I removed about .015" of material and I am happy to report that after 100 rounds (50 Fiocchi and 50 Remingtons) I had zero, thats right ZERO FTF and failure to return to battery! Just a lack of clearance, the gap between the extractor hook and breech face was too tight to allow the shell to tip in as it was stripped from the mag on it's way into the chamber. I still need a full range trip with a couple hundred rounds to be sure but going from such a high failure rate to zero I'm pretty sure I can call this thing fixed.

[kwh]

Thanks for the post. Good diagnostics.

[b4uqzme]

good post. Hope the Kahr engineers are reading this.

[TennSCN]

The round lug on the back of the extractor?

[tigman250]

The round lug on the back of the extractor?


Yes, you remove material from the front side of the round lug. This allows the extractor to move forward creating more space between the hook and breech face

[Robert1]

Have a picture? It would be helpful.


Yes, you remove material from the front side of the round lug. This allows the extractor to move forward creating more space between the hook and breech face

[BEARDOG]

Nice job on your fix tigman! Please let us know how it works after some more testing.

Fiocchi has been a known issue for most people in their Kahr 380's. I sorted out all my Fiocchi brass before I even fired any of my reloads in my CW380. It has run 100% with the mixed headstamp brass from all the other manufactures, but your mod sounds like a easy fix for the problem.

[tigman250]

Have a picture? It would be helpful.

I knew I was going to get spanked for not including a picture, lets just say I am better at trouble shooting mechanical things than navigating forums. I will post up some pictures when I figure out how, I have not used a file sharing site in probably 10 years and all the ones I use either are no longer around or are pay sites and I don't care to do a paid membership to post 2 pictures a year haha! It will be later today or tomorrow.....

[SlowBurn]

I knew I was going to get spanked for not including a picture, lets just say I am better at trouble shooting mechanical things than navigating forums. I will post up some pictures when I figure out how, I have not used a file sharing site in probably 10 years and all the ones I use either are no longer around or are pay sites and I don't care to do a paid membership to post 2 pictures a year haha! It will be later today or tomorrow.....

Thanks very much for this thread.

I'm mechanically challenged so I'd really like to see the pix. If you have a smart phone, you can take pictures with that and use Tapatalk to access KahrTalk. Makes it really easy to upload pictures directly from the phone to the forum. If not, load the photos from the camera onto your computer. Then, when drafting your post or reply, click on the picture frame thingy in the top margin of the draft. You have to navigate to where the picture is on your drive, and remember to click "upload" after you select the picture file and before you post, but it works fine.

Please, when you next test the CW380 out, try using a seven round spare mag (if you have one) fully loaded with a round already in the chamber. From what I've read here recently that seems to be the acid test. I just tried it and did have a couple of problems which I didn't experience otherwise (I have the same gun bought at the same time). If that works, (and if you'll clue us how you removed the material) I'll give it a try. Otherwise, gun's new and I don't have your mechanical skills so I'm just sending it in.

[berettabone]

The Fiocchi ammo is also longer than most fmj ammo......................................

[tigman250]

and to think I thought taptalk was just an annoying pop up, here is the pic, it's my first time posting with taptalk so if something goes haywire please be gentle!

I have some diamond coated stones that I used to remove the material, I didnt check it to see if it was hard or not or if a file would cut it or not. Beginning dimension was .115" and because the Fiocchi were .015" thicker that was the amount I decided to start with, my pin now measures .100" from front to back (from the area where the pen is pointing to the opposite side). I tried to get a pucture at the point that it used to hang up but no matter how much I rode the slide forward I couldn't get it to stop anymore. I do need to put more shots down range but because of the dramatic difference in performance (zero failures from 90% failures) and the fact that the slide now chambers effortlessly I'm pretty confident it's fixed. I have not shot it with a extended mag, I bought it for deep concealment so all the spare mags I have are 6 round so I can't test that theory out for you but like I just said I'm pretty confident its fixed. If anyone needs any more photos let me know.

Kahr, if you are hiring for R&D let me know LOL!!



http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/07/4c2b4b68d64a3fde747a8e2320ca3c84.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tony k]

I've got my cw45 at kahr right now for a failure to feed issue. I'm pretty convinced that the problem is the extractor. It might be something like yours. Thanks for the great post!

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

[SlowBurn]

Thanks very much. Good post

[tigman250]

I am calling this a 100% fix for the FTF, extraction and out of battery stuff that was affecting my CW380. I have a couple hundred more rounds through it with ZERO failures of any kind.

here is a recap for those that don't care to wade through my previous babbling and in case I forgot to mention anything previously. The Fiocchi ammo would not run at all, probably 90% failure. The Remington was better but still had 10 maybe 20% failure. Because the problem was obviously ammo related I began measuring all the differences between all the 380 ammo I could get my hands on. The biggest thing I noticed was the Fiocchi rim was .015" thicker than all the other ammo, (I originally blamed the issue with short battery on the funny ring Fiocchi has rolled in the middle of their brass.....oops) I began to hand cycle the different rounds through the gun and realized the problem was really with all ammo and it occurred when the round was trying to slide up under the extractor, so I turned my attention to it and it's components. I then noticed that even when you forced the slide closed on a Fiocchi the extractor stuck out farther than on other brands of ammo (this is when I started measuring rim thickness) the extractor was not able to get a hold on the brass because it was too thick, this defiantly explained why the gun would not extract Fiocchi ammo LOL! Because the extractor was so tight to the breech face the round didn't have enough room to tip up behind it out of the mag creating a binding situation which explains the difficulty getting it into battery. By removing the .015" off of the extractor pin that allowed the extractor .015" more clearance between it and the breech face giving even the chubby Fiocchi the room it needs to tip up and allow the gun to complete it's cycle trouble free. Hope this info is able to help someone else out!

[OnTop]

Excellent post. Thanks OP for the info.

OT

[East River Guide]

Very insightful. Thank you.

[Higgy Baby]

Good news... I wonder ....does Kahr have a rep on this forum? If not, perhaps someone could shoot them a link to this fix.


And thanks for the info on Tapatalk......I thought it was just an app designed to frustrate old men so they would throw away their cell phones.

[Bobshouse]

Thanks for linking this thread muggsy....tagged!

[alsheppard]

I am calling this a 100% fix for the FTF, extraction and out of battery stuff that was affecting my CW380. I have a couple hundred more rounds through it with ZERO failures of any kind.

here is a recap for those that don't care to wade through my previous babbling and in case I forgot to mention anything previously. The Fiocchi ammo would not run at all, probably 90% failure. The Remington was better but still had 10 maybe 20% failure. Because the problem was obviously ammo related I began measuring all the differences between all the 380 ammo I could get my hands on. The biggest thing I noticed was the Fiocchi rim was .015" thicker than all the other ammo, (I originally blamed the issue with short battery on the funny ring Fiocchi has rolled in the middle of their brass.....oops) I began to hand cycle the different rounds through the gun and realized the problem was really with all ammo and it occurred when the round was trying to slide up under the extractor, so I turned my attention to it and it's components. I then noticed that even when you forced the slide closed on a Fiocchi the extractor stuck out farther than on other brands of ammo (this is when I started measuring rim thickness) the extractor was not able to get a hold on the brass because it was too thick, this defiantly explained why the gun would not extract Fiocchi ammo LOL! Because the extractor was so tight to the breech face the round didn't have enough room to tip up behind it out of the mag creating a binding situation which explains the difficulty getting it into battery. By removing the .015" off of the extractor pin that allowed the extractor .015" more clearance between it and the breech face giving even the chubby Fiocchi the room it needs to tip up and allow the gun to complete it's cycle trouble free. Hope this info is able to help someone else out!

I used the search box for "return to battery and found this thread. I could not of hoped to find a better post than this. I am having the exact same problems with my CW380 including the Fiocchi business. I read this whole thread yesterday then ordered a new extractor, rods and spring from Kahr. When they get here I am going to follow your instructions and grind the post on the extractor. Sounds like an easy fix. Thanks for sharing. You have to be pretty pistol wise to see stuff like that.

[Laneman]

I had this exact same problem on my CW9. I found another member here who fixed his, so I did the same repair to mine and it worked perfectly. It is a different repair than what you did. I ground some length off of the pin that is part of the extractor spring group. There are two pins, one in front of the spring and one to the rear of the spring. We ground some material off of the rear pin. I think we all effectively did the same thing but in different ways. We reduced some pressure from the extractor spring, which allows the slide to close easier. My CW9 now goes fully into battery, even when slowly closed by hand. No failures of any kind ever since.

Here is a quote from his repair


"KP9093A. Extractor spring measured 64 OZ. Shortened rear extractor pin 0.045" .
Extractor tension is now 32Oz. and pistol feeds perfectly. no problems after 500 + rounds".

[alsheppard]

I used the search box for "return to battery and found this thread. I could not of hoped to find a better post than this. I am having the exact same problems with my CW380 including the Fiocchi business. I read this whole thread yesterday then ordered a new extractor, rods and spring from Kahr. When they get here I am going to follow your instructions and grind the post on the extractor. Sounds like an easy fix. Thanks for sharing. You have to be pretty pistol wise to see stuff like that.

Well, I did grind .015" off the front of the extractor pin on my CW380. I reassembled it and put 115 rounds through it with zero malfunctions. I'll go back out to the range next week for further testing. I'm going to take a box of fiocchi ammo I abandoned in the cupboard and see how it runs. It seems the fix described by Mr. tigman is a winner.

[SGT5711]

When I first received my P380, it shot Fiocchi with no problem, but I started getting light strikes and FTRB. I eventually sent it back to Kahr, and they replaced the frame because they said mine was cracked. Since I received it back, mine has been nearly perfect, but it won't feed Fiocchi at all now.

[CPTKILLER]

Interesting.

[tigman250]

I spent the time to document this fix hoping it would help others. I just dug this thread up to update it to say I have also repaired a friends CW 380 and its worked beautifully on that firearm as well. It's wonderful that so many are finding it helpful!! Hope Kahr is reading, .005" more clearance is all they need for these little fellas to feed reliably.

[Macc]

Thanks to you Tigman250,
I apparently may have the similar issue.
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?28293-CW380-fresh-out-the-box

[Macc]

Tigman,
Is there a better way you could show the surface that you machined down?
I saw the one photo, but I'd like to be certain.
Thanks again for your efforts and skills.

[gb6491]

Tigman,
Is there a better way you could show the surface that you machined down?
I saw the one photo, but I'd like to be certain.
Thanks again for your efforts and skills.
If you'll excuse me interjecting my 2 cents worth here: after noticing that Fiocchi rims were thicker, I did what tigman suggested when I was rebuilding my PM380. Here's a photo showing the area that I addressed:
https://i.postimg.cc/kX9rByvk/ex1-copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Regards,
Greg

[ODGreenThumb]

Thanks for the illustration. I'm looking for something similar for polishing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Macc]

Thanks Greg, for the extra photo/illustration.That clears it up for me.

[topgun1953]

Greg, did you just file and create a flat spot on the round pin, or did you try to keep it rounded. I filed mine flat. Relative to the slot in the slide, my leading edge of the extractor is now a little bit beyond it, into the ejection port. In otherwords, the edge from which your horizontal blue arrow extends, protrudes slightly beyond the slot in the slide (or into the ejection port).. That's a measure of now much I've removed. I haven't used it enough to see if it makes a difference. I didn't have a major FTF problem before, but I've got a new barrel and slide (Kahr replaced them when they replaced my broken striker) and I am experiencing some...

[gb6491]

Greg, did you just file and create a flat spot on the round pin, or did you try to keep it rounded. I filed mine flat. Relative to the slot in the slide, my leading edge of the extractor is now a little bit beyond it, into the ejection port. In otherwords, the edge from which your horizontal blue arrow extends, protrudes slightly beyond the slot in the slide (or into the ejection port).. That's a measure of now much I've removed. I haven't used it enough to see if it makes a difference. I didn't have a major FTF problem before, but I've got a new barrel and slide (Kahr replaced them when they replaced my broken striker) and I am experiencing some...

I kept in rounded. The top, front edge of my extractor is just about even with the ejection port:
http://i63.tinypic.com/2v152ck.jpg
With your extractor sitting forward of that, does the barrel interfere with it?
Regards,
Greg

[topgun1953]

Here is what mine looks like. I see that mine is crooked a bit compare to yours. I put in a new extractor to compare, and it too sat the same way. It is still clear of he barrel.

[Macc]

Good question topgun.

[erichard]

It would be interesting to know if people who report no problems with ftf and/or battery have an extractor that lines up where yours does in the picture. Mine does not quite come forward enough to be even (round in the chamber I assume). My guess is if it's just a little too tight that it will slow the overall cycling process and affect feeding in various ways, particularly with thick rimmed casings. I wonder if it could change the feeding of the Lehigh rounds by speeding up the return to battery. There should be some physical explanation as to why some feed the XP and XD rounds and some guns don't (as well as other rounds of course).



I kept in rounded. The top, front edge of my extractor is just about even with the ejection port:
http://i63.tinypic.com/2v152ck.jpg
With your extractor sitting forward of that, does the barrel interfere with it?
Regards,
Greg

[Bobshouse]

Great idea, I'll be the first to chime in. My extractor appears to be flush with the ejection port. I have had zero problems with my p380 after the break in period.

[Alfonse]

I looked at mine today after seeing this thread. Without any work on it, it lines up with the edge of the slide like GB6491's.

I think I would have to hit Perfecta rounds with a hammer to get them in the chamber. I understand that isn't always a recommended procedure. I just won't buy those anymore, but was trying to test a variety of ammo.

[tigman250]

I apologize for my lack of attendance, looks like you guys are getting along nicely without me anyway :-)

I hesitate to use looks as the deciding factor as to weather or not you have a problem extractor, we are only talking about removing.005-.010" to get them to work, that's pretty hard to see with the naked eye

[Tilos]

You could use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the breach face and the extractor hook.
You could also remove some material from the hook, rather than the pivot pin, or some from each.
I believe putting a slight radius on the bottom edge of the extractor hook area, where the case rim makes contact, would help in the overall operation.
That said, I don't have this problem, or even own a 380 :o
Just avoiding the problematic ammo would be something I'd probably do, rather than modifying my gun.
What is the SAAMI specs on the 380 rim thickness?
found it:
http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/380%20Automatic.pdf
just sayin'
:)

[tigman250]

You could use a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the breach face and the extractor hook.
You could also remove some material from the hook, rather than the pivot pin, or some from each.
I believe putting a slight radius on the bottom edge of the extractor hook area, where the case rim makes contact, would help in the overall operation.
That said, I don't have this problem, or even own a 380 :o
Just avoiding the problematic ammo would be something I'd probably do, rather than modifying my gun.
What is the SAAMI specs on the 380 rim thickness?
found it:
http://saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/380%20Automatic.pdf
just sayin'
:)

I like my defensive guns to eat anything.

a radius will not solve the problem, the failure to return to battery is caused by extractor to breech face being so tight it does not allow the round being stripped from the mag enough room to tip and be under the extractor. Once it has enough room it slides home effortlessly regardless on weather or not the round is to saami specs.:cool:

[Tilos]

I can understand why you think that way.

I posted to offer a way to measure the breach face to claw gap with a feeler gage (or even the shank of number drills) as it is hard to see .005/.015 difference.
I commend you for the work you've done here, and don't mean to minimize it.

As I see it, the extractor moves by pivoting on the trunion you have modified, moving more on a radius, than a linear/flat plane, so the space between the breach face and hook(claw) increases as the extractor moves.
As we all know the extractor is moved by the rim diameter, and allows a extractor touch (protrusion) as a loaded chamber indicator.
The radius I suggested should allow the case rim to cam under/pivot the extractor out of the way, rather than catching on it, should you choose to use ammo with a unique rim.
The SAAMI max rim thickness is helpful to know, so you can modify the extractor to work with all ammo, not just what you have bought/used so far.
This is something I have experienced on other guns, and may not apply here though, as I don't have a 380:o.
I guess we'll just have to agree that we dis-agree,
:D

[Macc]

Checking in again,
I can now confirm that Mr. Tigman250's fix, totally corrected my "fresh out of the box" issue.
I've reliably have fired over 250 rounds successfully, without a hitch. Following the recommended .010 - .015 changes. I ended up by removing .013 from the back portion of the extractor.
I can even fire fiocchi, with a high degree of success.
It seems that this amount might slightly vary, from gun to gun, obviously, as components vary also.
Next is installing the ultimate striker from Alfonse! http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?28038-Kahr-380-Striker-Ultimate- (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?28038-Kahr-380-Striker-Ultimate-Fix)

[Alfonse]

Great work!

[spazzwarr]

This is useful information. The outside leading edge of my extractor is "hard" even with the top side of the ejection port. Never experienced the FTB in about 250 rnds. until I shot some S&B ammo marked for "9mm Browning Court/.380 auto. I have shot many different brands of ammo and never had a problem.. I purchased this ammo to shoot in my CZ 24. Loads fine in this gun, probably something to do with tolerances (lol). I'm not sure if S & B marks all their .380 ammo this way. Does anyone know? Going to check S&B's wbesite now. Has any one else had this experience with this?

I do know that 9mm Browning is .380 ammo. I do not know if they are mfrd to the same tight spec. S & B site shows that the above is the current listing type for this ammo.

[dsk]

So let's see now. Kahr .380 fans have engineered solutions for their poor magazine design, poor striker design, and poor extractor design. Is there anything else I missed?

[picrthis]

So let's see now. Kahr .380 fans have engineered solutions for their poor magazine design, poor striker design, and poor extractor design. Is there anything else I missed?
What is the .380 fans engineered solution for the magazine that you speak of?

[Tilos]

What is the .380 fans engineered solution for the magazine that you speak of?

This has proven to work with all Kahr mag followers, a mod not an engineered solution...yet;):
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?6943-Chambering-the-first-round-a-slingshot-modification
:D

[picrthis]

Thank you, that is what you meant; that is SOP on a Kahr though

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[DriveAKahr]

I wanted to bump this thread because this seems like it would fix A LOT of the problem CW/P380s out there, no?

Questions I have is:

What exactly did you guys use to actually take off material?

How did you measure the part and confirm that material was taken off (with what measuring tools? Digital calipers of some sort?)

Im surprised this thread is not a sticky or getting more attention...

[tigman250]

I wanted to bump this thread because this seems like it would fix A LOT of the problem CW/P380s out there, no?

Questions I have is:

What exactly did you guys use to actually take off material?

How did you measure the part and confirm that material was taken off (with what measuring tools? Digital calipers of some sort?)

Im surprised this thread is not a sticky or getting more attention...

I just used a course stone to remove the material, if you do not have a set of stones you could put sandpaper on a hard surface, would just have to move to a fresh spot frequently as the sandpaper wore down. Yes, just a standard set of calipers does a great job of measuring, just measure before so you know how much has been taken off. Glad this thread is still helping people!

[DriveAKahr]

I just used a course stone to remove the material, if you do not have a set of stones you could put sandpaper on a hard surface, would just have to move to a fresh spot frequently as the sandpaper wore down. Yes, just a standard set of calipers does a great job of measuring, just measure before so you know how much has been taken off. Glad this thread is still helping people!

Wow, cannot thank you enough for the quick reply. What is a coarse stone? Is there a brand that I can search? What about the grit # of sandpaper?

Also I keep the part rounded correct? Not flatten it?

How has the cw380 been doing for you lately?

[tigman250]

Wow, cannot thank you enough for the quick reply. What is a coarse stone? Is there a brand that I can search? What about the grit # of sandpaper?

Also I keep the part rounded correct? Not flatten it?

How has the cw380 been doing for you lately?


220 grit sandpaper will work, go slow and check your progress often to prevent removal of too much material. Any course knife sharpening stone will work but must be thin enough to fit between the extractor lip and boss you are removing material from. Easiest way would probably be to pick up
a sheet of sandpaper from your local Ace Hardware, just put the sandpaper on a thin hard surface (like a paint stir stick) and use it to remove the material. Yes, don't flatten it, do your best to keep the surface round. Good luck and post your results!!

mine has not given any problems since I modified it, not one malfunction :-)

[topgun1953]

I filed mine down, flat, on the one side. It worked well, but I likely knicked the 'arm' that attaches to the extractor, causing a weak spot, because the extractor failed after several hundred rounds...it broke in two....so a word to the wise.

[CPTKILLER]

Good job.

[Tilos]

oops
:D

[Tilos]

I filed mine down, flat, on the one side. It worked well, but I likely knicked the 'arm' that attaches to the extractor, causing a weak spot, because the extractor failed after several hundred rounds...it broke in two....so a word to the wise.

Fyi
Pillar files have a smooth edge and is what I use to get into a corner without nicking the adjoining surface.

Most needle handled file sets have files with a smooth edge, and I actually stone the edges smoother before using them.

Like these:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/det...73228?fromRR=Y (http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00673228?fromRR=Y)
just sayin'
:D
Edit: A golf ball makes a great handle for these files...

[jtsmall]

Thanks very much for this thread.

I'm mechanically challenged so I'd really like to see the pix. If you have a smart phone, you can take pictures with that and use Tapatalk to access KahrTalk. Makes it really easy to upload pictures directly from the phone to the forum. If not, load the photos from the camera onto your computer. Then, when drafting your post or reply, click on the picture frame thingy in the top margin of the draft. You have to navigate to where the picture is on your drive, and remember to click "upload" after you select the picture file and before you post, but it works fine.

Please, when you next test the CW380 out, try using a seven round spare mag (if you have one) fully loaded with a round already in the chamber. From what I've read here recently that seems to be the acid test. I just tried it and did have a couple of problems which I didn't experience otherwise (I have the same gun bought at the same time). If that works, (and if you'll clue us how you removed the material) I'll give it a try. Otherwise, gun's new and I don't have your mechanical skills so I'm just sending it in.
FWIW, my copy of the CW380 was purchased at Bud's in Lexington KY about two months ago and even after 450 rounds I still have exactly the same issues as described by the OP with Remington and Fiocchi - to the extreme. The Fiocchi NEVER feeds with ether a nose dive into the loading ramp or caught crosswise at an angle to the barrel and in either instance tapping the slide will not chamber it. Only simultaneously retracting the slide while dropping the magazine frees the jammed cartridge.

By changing my springs and followers on both 6 and 7 round Kahr magzines to Maguts I improved the Remington to about a 3-5% failure rate but still the Fiocchi would never chamber.

I had taken photos of all the brands used to date (five) of which only two have been reliable (Hornady Critical Defense and American Eagle). Even one of those two (American Eagle) was not until several hundred rounds later. The photos were for side by side visual inspection but of course I did not notice a 15 thou descrepency!

Needless to say I have my calipers out today measuring many spent casing, looking for the tell tale differences and extractor gouges.

Two days ago out of resignation I picked up the new Ruger LCP II and everone of 30 Fiocchi and 50 American Eagles loaded and fired perfectly - 100 percent success! Therefore I'm near certain the Kahr has issues that are not just our imagination and that are correctable.

-jts



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[tigman250]

FWIW, my copy of the CW380 was purchased at Bud's in Lexington KY about two months ago and even after 450 rounds I still have exactly the same issues as described by the OP with Remington and Fiocchi - to the extreme. The Fiocchi NEVER feeds with ether a nose dive into the loading ramp or caught crosswise at an angle to the barrel and in either instance tapping the slide will not chamber it. Only simultaneously retracting the slide while dropping the magazine frees the jammed cartridge.

By changing my springs and followers on both 6 and 7 round Kahr magzines to Maguts I improved the Remington to about a 3-5% failure rate but still the Fiocchi would never chamber.

I had taken photos of all the brands used to date (five) of which only two have been reliable (Hornady Critical Defense and American Eagle). Even one of those two (American Eagle) was not until several hundred rounds later. The photos were for side by side visual inspection but of course I did not notice a 15 thou descrepency!

Needless to say I have my calipers out today measuring many spent casing, looking for the tell tale differences and extractor gouges.

Two days ago out of resignation I picked up the new Ruger LCP II and everone of 30 Fiocchi and 50 American Eagles loaded and fired perfectly - 100 percent success! Therefore I'm near certain the Kahr has issues that we are not imaging and that are correctable.

-jts



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If you still have the Kahr please try the mod, all Kahr needs to realize is they need just a tad more clearance between the breech face and the extractor hook to get reliable feeding. If you are up to it please try it, my guess is you will be at 100% with the Kahras well.

(I too bought a LCP II which now has replaced the Kahr in my pocket) shot perfectly out of the box (after cleaning of course) no modifications necessary:-)

[jtsmall]

If you still have the Kahr please try the mod, all Kahr needs to realize is they need just a tad more clearance between the breech face and the extractor hook to get reliable feeding. If you are up to it please try it, my guess is you will be at 100% with the Kahras well.

(I too bought a LCP II which now has replaced the Kahr in my pocket) shot perfectly out of the box (after cleaning of course) no modifications necessary:-)
Thanks for your keen eye and recommendations. Attached is a photo of a caliper set at 10 thou. Truly amazing the tolerances we're dealing with.

I'm a bit puzzled by one fix - removing metal from one of the two extractor pins. If the hole the rear portion of the extractor constrains forward movement (I think of a U shaped extractor sitting in a saddle) then I'm unclear how shortening either pin helps UNLESS it allows sufficient rotation of the ejector facilitating cartridge feeding and return to battery.

If so a less strong spring might be another solution.

We now have critical tolerances with a chain composed of four elements. Given the overall undeniabilty quality of the Kahr automatic pistols it's difficult to conclude this issue has been overlooked.

Then again I've read enough reports by owners, including those with my own copy, to question either the design or manufacturing and thus as to the suitability of the CW380 as a reliable self defense weapon. Reliability must be among the top concerns of both the seller and buyer.

I fully agree with your position that a self defense auto pistol must operate with all available ammo marketed for that caliber that might be at hand especially considering the diverse opinions as to the best self defense ammunition.

-jts

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161023/07e43f08cc77f84c46614a57b6c9d89d.jpg

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk

[jtsmall]

If you still have the Kahr please try the mod, all Kahr needs to realize is they need just a tad more clearance between the breech face and the extractor hook to get reliable feeding. If you are up to it please try it, my guess is you will be at 100% with the Kahras well.

(I too bought a LCP II which now has replaced the Kahr in my pocket) shot perfectly out of the box (after cleaning of course) no modifications necessary:-)
Yes, I have kept the CW360. It and the series from K to CW all exhibit a level of quality and design inguinity that I find appealing.

Much the same way I think of the 1911 miracles of ingenuity by Browning and those that followed.

-jts

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk

[tigman250]

Thanks for your keen eye and recommendations. Attached is a photo of a caliper set at 10 thou. Truly amazing the tolerances we're dealing with.

I'm a bit puzzled by one fix - removing metal from one of the two extractor pins. If the hole the rear portion of the extractor constrains forward movement (I think of a U shaped extractor sitting in a saddle) then I'm unclear how shortening either pin helps UNLESS it allows sufficient rotation of the ejector facilitating cartridge feeding and return to battery.

If so a less strong spring might be another solution.

We now have critical tolerances with a chain composed of four elements. Given the overall undeniabilty quality of the Kahr automatic pistols it's difficult to conclude this issue has been overlooked.

Then again I've read enough reports by owners, including those with my own copy, to question either the design or manufacturing and thus as to the suitability of the CW380 as a reliable self defense weapon. Reliability must be among the top concerns of both the seller and buyer.

I fully agree with your position that a self defense auto pistol must operate with all available ammo marketed for that caliber that might be at hand especially considering the diverse opinions as to the best self defense ammunition.



-
Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk


You are not shortening the pin, you are removing some of the diameter allowing the extractor more space on the breech face.

the problem is the clearance between the breech face and extractor hook is too tight, fiochi ammo has a thicker rim thus the constant ftf. The fiochi will not fit between the hook and breech with the slide off the firearm, stands to reason why when stripping a round from the mag it fails to return to battery, when the shell is tipped it needs even more room to allow the round to come up. By removing material from the front of the pin the extractor can come farther forward adding clearance needed for even the thicher rimmed ammo

[tigman250]

Yes, I have kept the CW360. It and the series from K to CW all exhibit a level of quality and design inguinity that I find appealing.

Much the same way I think of the 1911 miracles of ingenuity by Browning and those that followed.

-jts

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk

1911's are an engineering masterpiece, especially considering they were designed and built in the late 1800's on early manufacturing equipment! Wish I could have met John Browning

[jtsmall]

You are not shortening the pin, you are removing some of the diameter allowing the extractor more space on the breech face.

the problem is the clearance between the breech face and extractor hook is too tight, fiochi ammo has a thicker rim thus the constant ftf. The fiochi will not fit between the hook and breech with the slide off the firearm...

Yes, I follow your reasoning and find your practical solution compelling. After all, others have replicated your solution with success (and one reporting a subsequent failed extractor after repeated firings).

I will most likely do the same.

Two days ago I reviewed my ammo measurements and found other makes whose rim was out of tolerance (specs call for 35 thou upper limit). I could not accurately measure the breech face to extractor claw gap with calipers (nor do I entirely trust my rim measurements due to poor repeatability). I'll try manually fitting various loads that work and compare those to Fiocchi as you have done.

I'm wondering if there's a CNC manufacturing issue with either the slide (fitting for the extractor) or the extractor itself.

Also...

Given the relative size reduction in subcompact 380 auto pistols and load reduction of the round perhaps the offset loading ramp is a bridge too far?

I'm reminded if Ruger can succeed with the LCP II then why not Kahr? Ruger uses a hammer vs Kahr inline striker but I don't think that's at play here. The Ruger overall weight is similarly light as well.

-jts



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[jtsmall]

My copy is back home with its maker for a 500 round service as of 9/28. I am hoping for good news on its return.

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[jtsmall]

Follow up to #63 - CW380 returned to Kahr for repair WITHOUT altering the original extractor.

Sent prepaid FedEx last Thursday and received back via FedEx the following Thursday. Overnight delivery both ways and over a weekend means Kahr had it for 3-4 days.

Technical Service Work Sheet printed at 1p Tuesday, two days ago, stated action taken as...
1 update extractor
2 replaced slide stop
3 lubed
4 tested OK

Today at the range, shot the CW380 out of the box as follows...

Sig 100 gr FMJ X 20
Blazer Brass 95 gr FMJ X 22
Remington UMC 95 gr FMJ X 22
Fiocchi 95 gr FMJ X 27
Hornady Critical Defense X 3
Total 94 rounds

All rounds feed with stock Kahr 6 round mag without failures including three Hornady rounds. And all the Fiocchi of which 100% failed pre service!

All manufactures' rounds had multiple early slide lock failures with Kahr extended 7 round mag altered with 8 round Magguts spring and follower. Always first two rounds good with slide lock after second round and randomly further into the mag.

One failure to return to battery with Fiocchi in 7 round magazine.

My assessment is that the frequent failures to return to battery (and with every Fiocchi round) before repairs is fixed.

I don't believe I had nose dives into the feed ramp following repairs and I'm wondering if some of my pre-repair nose dives were mistaken early slide locks. How many, I'm unsure - but until I can prove otherwise I think none.

I'm right handed using a two handed combat grip. I lock my right thumb over my left thumb, away from the slide lock, and I doubt I rode the lock and engaged the slide accidentally either before repairs or today.

I noted at the range that the slide stop did not seem to have as strong a spring tension as I recalled before repairs. In fact it seemed loose.

When I field stripped the pistol this evening it appeared to me both on visual inspection with the slide stop installed and once removed (download the photo and enlarge/zoom as required) that the spring is not long enough to engage the tang on the slide stop. If so, that would is explain the premature slide locks.

http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/581c12eb83679/20161103_233522-01.jpeg?

If you agree what's the fix?

Why no premature slide locks on the six round mag and all occurring with the seven round mag?

-jts

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[erichard]

<<Why no premature slide locks on the six round mag and all occurring with the seven round mag?

-jts

Sent from my SM-N930V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]>>

I no longer use the 7 round mags and actually asked Kahr to swap out the one I had for a six rounder (wanted the 7 rounder to work, but no). I was never able to get it to work reliably. Unlike other guns, other brands perhaps, when you put pressure on the mag extension, it cants the upper tip of the mag, possibly into that slide lock tab (tip of uppermost bullet, especially when these rounds scoot forward as they seem to do). I did shave back the slide lock tab in order to prevent premature slide lock, but there is a limit at which you will fail to get an actual slide lock when you need it. I just simply gave up on the 7 rounder and have not looked back. I have Magguts in the six rounder for a 7+1 load altogether. Good enough for social work.

[jtsmall]

I just simply gave up on the 7 rounder and have not looked back. I have Magguts in the six rounder for a 7+1 load altogether. Good enough for social work.

Thanks for the insight.

The issues you discussed with the 7 round extension concerned me as well. Especially the cant first time I used that mag.

Yesterday I bought a second 6 rounder and will ask Kahr support if they'll exchange that 7 rounder.

Maybe Magguts will work with me too though I don't see it as their problem. I have been using Magguts in the 6 rounder (for 7 rounds) and no issues specific to it so far as I can tell.

-jts

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[Rd97]

Not very handy myself so had a gunsmith remove .015 from the extractor as suggested and now the cw380 will run maxxtech like a dream. Before it wouldn't go into battery. Good fix.

[tigman250]

Not very handy myself so had a gunsmith remove .015 from the extractor as suggested and now the cw380 will run maxxtech like a dream. Before it wouldn't go into battery. Good fix.

Glad it helped!

I'm honored, I see this was made a sticky!

[zredwire]

I would love to see Alfonse at Lakeline LLC make the correct length extractor. I would sure purchase one. I may have to invest in the tools to do the mod myself. I guess the main tool would be a caliper as I don't have a reliable way to measure the thickness. Then maybe some files or stones, though it looks like it can be done with sand paper?

[Tilos]

I would love to see Alfonse at Lakeline LLC make the correct length extractor. I would sure purchase one. I may have to invest in the tools to do the mod myself. I guess the main tool would be a caliper as I don't have a reliable way to measure the thickness. Then maybe some files or stones, though it looks like it can be done with sand paper?

Not sure why some call them "needle files" rather needle handled files but that's what you'll need, and a small vise will be helpful too.
I buy some similar to these, without any handles, a golf ball makes a great handle...
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piece-precision-needle-file-set-4614.html

And vise something like this, if you don't have one, or you could use vise grips to hold the extractor for filing:
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-1-2-half-inch-table-swivel-vise-97160.html
If all this is new to you, I'd suggest buying an extra extractor to have on hand, just in case something goes wrong :o
:D

[LeeTn]

Technical Service Work Sheet printed at 1p Tuesday, two days ago, stated action taken as...
1 update extractor
2 replaced slide stop
3 lubed
4 tested OK


"update extractor"? Does that mean that it has been redesigned?

[boscobarbell]

"update extractor"? Does that mean that it has been redesigned?

Bumping this to see if anyone knows the answer. I'm still on the fence regarding the CW380, but this would probably push me to give it another try.....

[dsk]

I bought a replacement extractor from Midway late last year, and the only difference was that it was MIM instead of machined like my old one. It still had the same sharp, pointy edge at the bottom that required slight dressing with a file.

[gb6491]

I bought a replacement extractor from Midway late last year, and the only difference was that it was MIM instead of machined like my old one. It still had the same sharp, pointy edge at the bottom that required slight dressing with a file.
For a second there, you had me thinking I was on a Glock forumhttp://www.pic4ever.com/images/109.gif

[dsk]

I tried a box of Fiocchi FMJ ammo in my P380 today, and sure enough I had 1-2 failures to fully go into battery with each magazine. Just a slight push on the back of the slide with my off-hand thumb and it went home. I then switched to a box of Herters ammo and had no problems. For now I'm probably just going to accept that there's a gun/ammo incompatibility and burn up my remaining Fiocchi ammo in my Glock 42. It's not like it's my carry ammo anyway.

[jtsmall]

Bumping this to see if anyone knows the answer. I'm still on the fence regarding the CW380, but this would probably push me to give it another try.....
For a while the second factory trip resulted in no failures, but alas, nose diving into the feeding ramp eventually returned as before. I do believe the fix as noted by the OP will work but cannot bring myself to fix what Kahr has delivered - especially for a EDC or self defense weapon.

I suggest watching this video that I stumbled across tonight ...
https://youtu.be/JwrBbUQze2k
The solution offered by this fix is in line with the OP here. My thinking is that the CW380 MIM extractor has a QC issue compared to the more exacting CNC extractor for the P380.

Bottom line, I think it's a crap shoot either way but it seems that this failure mode is more likely with the CW series as compared to the P series. So you pays your money and rolls the dice.

I'm contacting Kahr a third time about this issue. I don't see it as my responsibility to do this fix. Nor do I trust my copy of the CW380 for EDC ever anyway, either way.

-jts

Sent from my Samsung Chromebook Plus using Tapatalk

[topgun1953]

"update extractor"? Does that mean that it has been redesigned?
I emailed Jay a couple weeks ago and specifically asked about this. His response was that it has indeed, been redesigned to allow for better feeding.

[LeeTn]

I emailed Jay a couple weeks ago and specifically asked about this. His response was that it has indeed, been redesigned to allow for better feeding.
Thanks. That's really good to hear. I've been so busy the last couple of months that I haven't been able to pursue this--but it has continued to bother me. Guess I'll email Jay next....

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[CPTKILLER]

This is what they should know.



Case type
Rimless, straight


Bullet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet) diameter
.355 in (9.0 mm)


Neck diameter
.373 in (9.5 mm)


Base diameter
.374 in (9.5 mm)


Rim diameter
.374 in (9.5 mm)


Rim thickness
.045 in (1.1 mm)


Case length
.680 in (17.3 mm)


Overall length
.984 in (25.0 mm)


Maximum pressure
21,500 psi (148 MPa)

[CPTKILLER]

This standard should be on every engineer's desk and QA member's desk for every firearm and ammo manufacturer.

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-3_ANSI-SAAMI%20_CFPandR.pdf#page=10

The dimensions are available. Someone screwed up for sure.

[dsk]

I emailed Jay a couple weeks ago and specifically asked about this. His response was that it has indeed, been redesigned to allow for better feeding.

Any idea when the change occurred? I bought my new extractor from Midway late last year, and as I mentioned above the pistol still doesn't like Fiocchi. If the change was made recently made then we all still run the risk of getting older stock if we order a new one.

[topgun1953]

Any idea when the change occurred? I bought my new extractor from Midway late last year, and as I mentioned above the pistol still doesn't like Fiocchi. If the change was made recently made then we all still run the risk of getting older stock if we order a new one.

No, I'm not sure. I only asked because of the interest in this thread. The only mention of the updated extractor was by jtsmall earlier in this thread back in 11/16. If I were to order one, I'd try to talk to a human to make sure you get the latest and greatest. My P380 has been great for some time now...500 rnds or so. I took some length off of the rear extractor pin months ago. I don't try to run Fiocchi though 😃😃

[markman]

A couple of 1911 gunsmiths have told me in the past that the wrong extractor tension can cause failure to feed or extract. In the below video at about 2:30 it talks about it. The video also shows how they measure the tension. The second link shows a extractor tension guage set they use in the video. The extractor in the Kahr pistol is adjusted by shortening the rear pin behind the extractor spring, like previously mentioned in a post earlier. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3nnqKKWk2ig http://www.jackweigand.com/etg.html

[markman]

I forgot to add, I was told about 2lbs tension for a 9mm and about 2 1/2 lbs for the .40.

[Ark]

I made an account just for this post.

I picked up my brand new CW380 today and brought it home. Sure enough, it refused to chamber even one round of Perfecta .380 when dropping the slide from the locked position. Which sucks, because I just cleaned out my local Walmart's supply for $5 a box and I was wanting a nice pistol to shoot it out of.

I performed the modification described in the OP and, though I ended up taking off a little over .020" of material, I successfully got it to the point where Perfecta .380 chambers smoothly on every try. Night and day difference. I did the job with a basic file and some sandpaper for a final smoothing. I used a set of digital calipers to monitor my progress. Anyone remotely handy could do it. OP really knocked it out of the park with this tip. Thanks a ton!

[gb6491]

Ark,
Welcome to the forum!
Thanks for providing your feedback on tigman250's extractor mod :)
Regards,
Greg

[CharlieR]

The P380 has the exact same problem. I have both a P380 and CW380. I am going to perform the mod to the extractor of the CW380 first, but if it works, it'll be done to the P380 as well. I had resigned myself that they are just ammo picky, and both of mine love PPU FMJ and Gold Dot JHP, so I was good with that, but it would be nice to be able to shoot a wider variety of ammo.




For a while the second factory trip resulted in no failures, but alas, nose diving into the feeding ramp eventually returned as before. I do believe the fix as noted by the OP will work but cannot bring myself to fix what Kahr has delivered - especially for a EDC or self defense weapon.

I suggest watching this video that I stumbled across tonight ...
https://youtu.be/JwrBbUQze2k
The solution offered by this fix is in line with the OP here. My thinking is that the CW380 MIM extractor has a QC issue compared to the more exacting CNC extractor for the P380.

Bottom line, I think it's a crap shoot either way but it seems that this failure mode is more likely with the CW series as compared to the P series. So you pays your money and rolls the dice.

I'm contacting Kahr a third time about this issue. I don't see it as my responsibility to do this fix. Nor do I trust my copy of the CW380 for EDC ever anyway, either way.

-jts

Sent from my Samsung Chromebook Plus using Tapatalk

[Tilos]

I am relatively new to the CW380 and experimenting with different range loads. Fortunately this gun loves Freedom Munitions reloads. Runs them like a champ.. It will not accept Fiocchi linea RN at 9.64 but will have no problem with the Freedom at Round nose Flat point which is shorter. Yet will accept the Hornady CD FX which is the same size as the Fiocchi, The FX has a rn but more of a flat point.

Regardless, I have a long way to go to make sure this gun is CCW safe. Notice the difference in potential AOL from SAMMI.

http://i.imgur.com/DvmxmRu.jpg?2 .910 to Max at .984

And once again a 9mm Tula Brass Max in a case gauge. I just ordered a gauge for the 380 for $20.00 from Amazon. I certainly am no expert in this. Really just guessing what the heck goes on with this gun and ammo. AOL, Bullet shape, etc.

http://i.imgur.com/wDk2PMi.jpg?4

Your gun barrel is the ultimate case gage for the plunk test.
:D

[King Rat]

Post deleted

[berettabone]

It also might be a good time to up the caliber, and quit beating an already dead horse. Anyone reading this stuff would, if they had half a brain, never fool with a .380 period. Who has this kind of time and money to fool with these guns. They're small, and that's all. Purchase a firearm that actually works all of the time. They are out there you know. This .380 crap takes up the whole site. Thankfully, there are 9mm, .40 cal. and .45 cal. that run like Swiss watches. Also thankfully, there are other topics besides "my .380 works like s#!t", or "my .380 doesn't like any ammo."

[dsk]

Find me a reliable 9mm or .45 pistol that drops right into the front pocket of my summer shorts without leaving a telltale bulge or droop and you've got a deal.

I know what you're saying though.

[King Rat]

It also might be a good time to up the caliber, and quit beating an already dead horse. Anyone reading this stuff would, if they had half a brain, never fool with a .380 period. Who has this kind of time and money to fool with these guns. They're small, and that's all. Purchase a firearm that actually works all of the time. They are out there you know. This .380 crap takes up the whole site. Thankfully, there are 9mm, .40 cal. and .45 cal. that run like Swiss watches. Also thankfully, there are other topics besides "my .380 works like s#!t", or "my .380 doesn't like any ammo."

Lol, we get the fact that you do not want or like a 380. We get it. I carry both a 380 and 9mm. It would be ridiculous to argue the merits of the 380. Obviously it is a ongoing debate that has no end. Maybe you should get with the admin. and suggest they drop all 380 related threads. Sorry you were so offended by my post wishing to find compatible ammo for a pistol that I like and invested hard earned dollars on. You obviously are a senior member so I will bow out of the forum and no longer be a member. So in essence you win. And for the Record there have been many post of 380's that run great. I think you just like to pick and choose. Your name calling of all that enjoy the 380 is not only childish, but rude. Enjoy your 45 Sir.
Admin. please delete all my post. Thank you.

[Bawanna]

No need for all that. Equally opposing thoughts and ideas don't make neither one wrong or right.

Its more a simple case of if it works for you your golden.

I personally have no use for pocket carry or the 380 caliber, really not overly fond of the 9mm but as my hands degenerate it certainly might be in my future and I own a few. Don't mean it isn't a good fit for other people.

Lets not get personal or overwrought. This is an oasis not a cage fighting ring. I do enjoy a good internet fisticuff from time to time but nobody lets me play anymore so we try to avoid them whenever possible.

[berettabone]

Find me a reliable 9mm or .45 pistol that drops right into the front pocket of my summer shorts without leaving a telltale bulge or droop and you've got a deal.

I know what you're saying though.
I have one, and been carrying it for about 7 years now. It's called an MK9.:p I also don't worry about telltale bulges. The sheeple don't notice a thing.

[berettabone]

Lol, we get the fact that you do not want or like a 380. We get it. I carry both a 380 and 9mm. It would be ridiculous to argue the merits of the 380. Obviously it is a ongoing debate that has no end. Maybe you should get with the admin. and suggest they drop all 380 related threads. Sorry you were so offended by my post wishing to find compatible ammo for a pistol that I like and invested hard earned dollars on. You obviously are a senior member so I will bow out of the forum and no longer be a member. So in essence you win. And for the Record there have been many post of 380's that run great. I think you just like to pick and choose. Your name calling of all that enjoy the 380 is not only childish, but rude. Enjoy your 45 Sir.
Admin. please delete all my post. Thank you. You are correct.........the Admin. is well aware of what gets posted on this forum. I wasn't offended by your post at all. I didn't know I did any name calling. I have owned a .380, and got rid of it because of just the issues that are being hashed out over and over. In my opinion, NONE, and I repeat, NONE of the .380's out there are 100% reliable, and will never be. As far as being a senior member, believe me, it matters little in this world. Childish? OK, rude, nah. No reason to leave so soon. Nobody likes a quitter. This is a Kahr forum, and you will get opinions on what you post. Crying towels are not included with your subscription.:o

[DavidR]

I own 2 LCPs. At least 500 rounds through each and they have functioned fine from the first round. I recently picked up an RM380 and so far, through 225 rounds, it has been flawless with 3 types of FMJ and 2 different Lehigh Defense rounds.

My son owns an LCP. It's been reliable from day 1.

My CW380 on the other hand was a disaster.

There are reliable pocket 380s out there that function from day 1 and aren't ammo finicky but Kahr isn't one of them.



Dave

[Bawanna]

I'm not totally on board with none of them being reliable. A few years ago I would have totally agreed with you.

But while we seem to hear about nothing lately but 380's I think there are many that run fine that we don't hear about.

Historically we always hear more about the bad ones than we do the good ones.

I grant thee they apparently can be troublesome, I don't dispute that.

[DavidR]

True. There are certainly Kahr 380s that have run reliably as there are LCPs that have had issues and it's really hard to gauge how pervasive a problem is from Internet forums.


Dave

[dsk]

I've got a Glock 42 that just runs and runs and runs. At the same time I've seen posts from people on the Glock forums who were about ready to throw theirs into the nearest river. The smaller you go with a semi-auto handgun the more critical everything is regarding ammo, recoil springs, and overall condition and cleanliness of the firearm. There is simply no margin of error like there usually is with a full-sized handgun.

I guess at this point it's worth mentioning that I often carry an even smaller handgun... a Kel-Tec .32ACP. With that we're even further down the power scale, but it actually is the most reliable of all my pocket pistols (I don't count my G42 as a pocket gun because it still creates a noticeable bulge) so it gets carried when the situation warrants it. Puny as it is, it's still a powerful weapon compared to being caught completely unarmed.

[SlowBurn]

I've had 4 CW and P 380s. 3 had no significant issues. The newest CW380 was very difficult out of the box and has required some breaking in. I'm no gunsmith. My solution is to clean it, lube it liberally with Balisol and a little silicon grease, including the magazine, shoot a box, rinse & repeat. With just over 100 rounds through it, I can now break it down without using any tools to poke the slide lock out, though I still need to use a table top to get the recoil springs/guide rod assembly back in place. Problem free using the old mag with standard round head fmj. With the new mag it failed to return to battery last time out about once per mag, but no jams like first time out. Pretty confident it will be fine with a little more breaking in.

[berettabone]

If you take in to account all of the complaints on the .380, and all of the........this ammo works and this ammo doesn't, it's all over the map. One person says Perfecta works, another says no. One says Remington works, another says no. Some people can only find one brand that works. There is no consistency with any of it. You also have to take in to account all of the owners who don't know about this site, or don't read about any internet issues. These poor people just unload the firearm on to the next person. Let's get down to basics. There is no reason why you should have to go through all of this with a new firearm. Most people are not gunsmiths, engineers, etc.. Purchase at your own risk people. You should not have to go through hundreds of dollars in ammo, to try and find one that works consistently. You end up spending more time and money than you paid for the firearm in the first place. To put it in perspective, I've been a shooter for over 45+ years, and besides my MK, I have never had ANY of these issues with ANY firearm or manufacturer. I guess you have to ask yourself, is a .380 really worth all of this trouble? Apparently some think so................................................ .....

[b4uqzme]

If you take in to account all of the complaints on the .380, and all of the........this ammo works and this ammo doesn't, it's all over the map. One person says Perfecta works, another says no. One says Remington works, another says no. Some people can only find one brand that works. There is no consistency with any of it. You also have to take in to account all of the owners who don't know about this site, or don't read about any internet issues. These poor people just unload the firearm on to the next person. Let's get down to basics. There is no reason why you should have to go through all of this with a new firearm. Most people are not gunsmiths, engineers, etc.. Purchase at your own risk people. You should not have to go through hundreds of dollars in ammo, to try and find one that works consistently. You end up spending more time and money than you paid for the firearm in the first place. To put it in perspective, I've been a shooter for over 45+ years, and besides my MK, I have never had ANY of these issues with ANY firearm or manufacturer. I guess you have to ask yourself, is a .380 really worth all of this trouble? Apparently some think so................................................ .....

^^^ I haven't personally experienced the .380 woes. Yet I came to the decision that 9mm is small and light enough for me. PM9 or CM9 is pert near perfect IMHO. YMMV.

[dsk]

I guess you have to ask yourself, is a .380 really worth all of this trouble?

Just a FYI, besides my Glock 42 I also have a 1929-vintage Colt Pocket Hammerless .380, and although it's an antique that I hardly shoot anymore it has always been flawlessly reliable no matter what ammo I put in it. I also used to own a Bersa Thunder and a couple of CZ-83s, and all of them were 100% reliable. The issue here isn't with the .380 cartridge in general, but what happens when you try to shoehorn it into a tiny handgun the size of yesterday's .25 and .32 autos. You have to accept the limitations of such tiny guns and the fact that they're not going to be as reliable or long-term durable as a full-sized handgun. They are going to be ammo-sensitive and require a lot more maintenance. If you're not willing to put up with that then stick with a larger handgun made for shooting instead of pocket carry. I'm not expecting my P380 or LCP to run several thousand rounds or fire all brands of ammo without issue. I just want them to work well enough that, given the required TLC I can still expect them to work if they're desperately needed.

[DavidR]

In my opinion:

Buy an LCP or an
RM380 and you most likely will have no problems with any ammo. Buy a Kahr 380 and you roll the dice. Even if you do get one that runs smoothly on some ammo, there's a good chance that down the road the striker will break.

There are pocket 380 designs that are as reliable and ammo friendly as the typical bigger 9mm. Kahr just isn't one of them.




Dave

[finpro]

Just a FYI, besides my Glock 42 I also have a 1929-vintage Colt Pocket Hammerless .380, and although it's an antique that I hardly shoot anymore it has always been flawlessly reliable no matter what ammo I put in it. I also used to own a Bersa Thunder and a couple of CZ-83s, and all of them were 100% reliable. The issue here isn't with the .380 cartridge in general, but what happens when you try to shoehorn it into a tiny handgun the size of yesterday's .25 and .32 autos. You have to accept the limitations of such tiny guns and the fact that they're not going to be as reliable or long-term durable as a full-sized handgun. They are going to be ammo-sensitive and require a lot more maintenance. If you're not willing to put up with that then stick with a larger handgun made for shooting instead of pocket carry. I'm not expecting my P380 or LCP to run several thousand rounds or fire all brands of ammo without issue. I just want them to work well enough that, given the required TLC I can still expect them to work if they're desperately needed.

I was going to make this same point, but dsk beat me to it and likely did a better job than I would have. John Browning invented the .380 and it served for a long time in serious police and military contexts. I have two .380 SIG P230s, once SIG's smallest pistol. My all stainless P230 weighs a bit less than a K9 and is roughly the same size. My alloy P230 weighs considerably less. I haven't shot them in some time, but when I did, they were very accurate and I do not remember ever having a failure. Modern defensive .380s in such pistols perform at roughly the same power levels as short barrel .38 Specials, carry more rounds and can shoot faster with great accuracy.
As to today's really tiny .380 pistols, I think they would work better if they were slightly larger than the smallest sizes as in the CT380.

[SlowBurn]

If you take in to account all of the complaints on the .380, and all of the........this ammo works and this ammo doesn't, it's all over the map. One person says Perfecta works, another says no. One says Remington works, another says no. Some people can only find one brand that works. There is no consistency with any of it. You also have to take in to account all of the owners who don't know about this site, or don't read about any internet issues. These poor people just unload the firearm on to the next person. Let's get down to basics. There is no reason why you should have to go through all of this with a new firearm. Most people are not gunsmiths, engineers, etc.. Purchase at your own risk people. You should not have to go through hundreds of dollars in ammo, to try and find one that works consistently. You end up spending more time and money than you paid for the firearm in the first place. To put it in perspective, I've been a shooter for over 45+ years, and besides my MK, I have never had ANY of these issues with ANY firearm or manufacturer. I guess you have to ask yourself, is a .380 really worth all of this trouble? Apparently some think so................................................ .....

MY own truth is I'm just not going to regularly, consistently, every day carry anything larger. Owned a great larger handgun for years, still do. It was in the car but not on me unless I felt a specific reason.

LCP came as a revelation - pocket carry is perfect for me. But Ruger couldn't fix the "smiley" problem because its a design defect. So I bought a Kahr, then another as a spare. I loved them but both were stolen, so I decided to try the latest improved version of the Beretta Pico. Its had a chronic problem with the trigger reset. Beretta to its credit replaced it with a new one after the 3rd trip to the factory. But I'm gonna sell the replacement NIB.

Because the truth is even when they work as well as they can, those other micro 380s don't handle or shoot like Kahrs. I hated going to the range with them- it was painful. Kahrs have a low bore axis, are a true striker fired guns, and the trigger is amazing. If I don't enjoy shooting the gun I won't practice with it. So its back to the Kahrs which are a pleasure to shoot. Prices are great so I now have 2 again.

And if I'm going to practice, which is a must for me, I'm going to spend the same money breaking the gun in that I'd be spending anyway. So I'm fine with breaking in the newest one, and I continue to believe P380 and CW380 are the top of the micro 380 class at the moment.

[King Rat]

^^^ I haven't personally experienced the .380 woes. Yet I came to the decision that 9mm is small and light enough for me. PM9 or CM9 is pert near perfect IMHO. YMMV.

I am a Pocket gun enthusiast for 10 years ever since the LCP came out. Have owned 4 of them, own others, I hear big gun, big post like yours all the time. Actually, with all due respect, your knowledge of Pocket guns is very lol, shall we say "Small". Lol, you put your quote "I have been a shooter for over 45 years" is a joke. I have been one as well. So What??? Were you shooting pocket guns 5 decades ago??
Every time you speak of the woes of the 380 just shows a blatant ignorance. A total lack of Knowledge. You are wrong on every account you post. No, they do not have any more problems than any other guns. I know.I own many firearms of different calibers. You make a disparaging comment of such nonsense as "Purchase at your own Risk" Lol, Smug, uniformed quote for sure. Pocket guns serve a purpose, not many folks work or live in a world where they can go to a business meeting with a 45 strapped to their side. Many people do not want to take a small jaunt to the 7/11 for a container of milk and go and strap on a 36oz 45. I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that you cannot even draw a 380 pocket gun with any skill. Oh, yes, it requires you to get off the sofa and train. They require diligent training. They require a certain skill set. Shoot a 380 well, and you most likely shoot bigger calibers well.
You Sir with all due respect seem like a man lost in a forgotten time zone. A man that has been shooting for 5 decades that just cannot, or will not conform to anything new. A real man carries a 45 Colt, all the time. Probably have John Wayne posters scattered throughout your house. Real men drink "Big Gulps" and order a large Fries from Mcdonalds.
Ballistics? You might want to study them closely. I see you love the 45. and reluctantly advise 9mm. Yet you seem to know nothing about the 380? You dismiss it.Lol, your comment about the intelligence of a 380 owner was laughable. Oh, I could go crude like yourself, but will take a higher stand. You do not want or like a pocket pistol? Change is tough. We all want to go back in time. The 380 at close range is a effective cartridge. It serves a purpose and improving all the time. Just like the 9mm, which is the standard with the Military and Police. Problems with small guns? BS!!! I own two Pocket guns that run like champs.

[Bawanna]

I don't think most of your comments should be directed to b4.
Many of the comments could be directed to me although I never mentioned them in this thread. I do have John Wayne posters, I do carry a 45, I seldom go to 7/11 and never buy milk.
Some of the comments could be directed to a few others as I recall some post mentioning the things under blatant ignorance.

All good but I think this horse is plumb rode down and we need to start over. That plus I haven't closed a thread in ages and I need to see if I remember how to do it.

Have a pleasant evening and a better tomorrow.