CW380 misfire / click no bang issue

[bobbyh]

I had my second range trip this weekend after getting my CW380 back from it's second strip to Kahr to fix the FTF issues I was having yet again.

I was shooting Precision One Hornaday XTP JHP, 50 rounds, and had two instances of clicks with no firing with one of my 6 rd. magazines. When I manually ejected the rounds they had dimples on them. I placed them aside but didn't load them again.

I also shot 25 rounds of Hornaday CD and had zero issues.

Is there something that I can look into to try to eliminate the misfire issues? I am open to doing just about anything short of returning it to Kahr; it's not going back again. I love the way it feel and shoots and I'm even crazy enough to consider just buying another one and taking my chances on it.

I was considering maybe stronger recoil springs or magazine springs but Wolff doesn't indicate they make them for this pistol.

Thanks!

[gun papa]

That is what my gun did before striker failed.

[bonjorno2]

maybe some gunk got into the channel of the striker. I've seen metal shavings in there on new guns before. I'd strip the slide and re try before contacting kahr. Unless you don't have time then send it to them for repair.

[erichard]

I agree with bonjorno2. Just make sure when you take the slide apart that you are maybe on a big white sheet so if the springs fly out, you can spot them easily. Easy to lose the very small bits and springs, but not too hard to take apart (look for videos on it...I think the CM-9 videos are the ones I followed as I recall, since they are similar design.) While you have the striker out, maybe buff/polish it a little, and maybe the channel too. As other stickies have mentioned, don't use lube down in that striker channel, which includes the spring area. That will mire the striker with increased viscosity and solids that cling to the oil, etc. Just leave that particular metal on metal region dry (unlike most of those regions of the gun), though some have mentioned conditioning the metal channel with lube that accomplishes that task (but leaves no liquid residue).

I use the nonchlorinated brake cleaner spray with the red tip buried in the tiny hole next to the striker channel. Spray there and fluid will jet out of both ends of the striker channel (wear eye protection and have gun over something that won't be damaged by that solvent). That might be the first step if you want to avoid disassembly.

Make sure the slide goes fully into battery too, though I assume that is not the issue.

[bobbyh]

I agree with bonjorno2. Just make sure when you take the slide apart that you are maybe on a big white sheet so if the springs fly out, you can spot them easily. Easy to lose the very small bits and springs, but not too hard to take apart (look for videos on it...I think the CM-9 videos are the ones I followed as I recall, since they are similar design.) While you have the striker out, maybe buff/polish it a little, and maybe the channel too. As other stickies have mentioned, don't use lube down in that striker channel, which includes the spring area. That will mire the striker with increased viscosity and solids that cling to the oil, etc. Just leave that particular metal on metal region dry (unlike most of those regions of the gun), though some have mentioned conditioning the metal channel with lube that accomplishes that task (but leaves no liquid residue).

I use the nonchlorinated brake cleaner spray with the red tip buried in the tiny hole next to the striker channel. Spray there and fluid will jet out of both ends of the striker channel (wear eye protection and have gun over something that won't be damaged by that solvent). That might be the first step if you want to avoid disassembly.

Make sure the slide goes fully into battery too, though I assume that is not the issue.

Thanks for the advice. I don't have a problem trying to take down the slide myself. Hopefully it's not a striker that is ready to expire as mentioned above and in a longer thread about it!

I always clean/lube mine after every range trip per the stickies. I'll do some work on it and give it another few trips to the range. If I can eliminate this and keep the old FTF's away I will be happy to carry this gun. I won't return it a third time to Kahr. It's been back twice already; I can't justify sending it back again as it will be past the point of trying to to get it to run good enough to trust my life with. I've dumped enough money in all different types of .380 ammo to get this thing to run right. When it works it's awesome; but reliability is still an issue for me.

My CM9 has 700 rounds it in without a single issue; just wish my CW380 would be as good.

[topgun1953]

It could be gunk....but could be the prelude to a broken striker as gun papa said. Take it out and examine the weak point where the pin joins the larger piece. That is where it fails.

[bobbyh]

It could be gunk....but could be the prelude to a broken striker as gun papa said. Take it out and examine the weak point where the pin joins the larger piece. That is where it fails.

Should I just replace my striker with a new one while I have it all apart? I have about 700 rounds through it as of now.

[gun papa]

It could be gunk....but could be the prelude to a broken striker as gun papa said. Take it out and examine the weak point where the pin joins the larger piece. That is where it fails.
Examine it real good. After my light strikes, I pulled and examined my striker. All seemed fine. A few dry fires later, broken. Examine under magnification if possible.

[ulflyer]

Are there any type of attachments to a dremel that can be used to polish inside the striker channel? I couldn't come up with a jury rigged polishing device to use in mine. Easy enuf to polish/buff the striker itself but would be nice to get inside the channel.

[muggsy]

It sounds to me like a ammo related failure. Bad primers aren't all that uncommon. I wouldn't do a thing to the gun other than routine cleaning and lubing. If the failures to fire continue, then I'd be looking at the gun. Try the pencil test to see if you are getting a solid strike.

[bobbyh]

It sounds to me like a ammo related failure. Bad primers aren't all that uncommon. I wouldn't do a thing to the gun other than routine cleaning and lubing. If the failures to fire continue, then I'd be looking at the gun. Try the pencil test to see if you are getting a solid strike.

I'll try the pencil test now that I know what that is and see if it passes.

The failures were (2) of the Precision One Hornaday XTP HP, 90 gr. Both failtures were the third round on my #2 magazine.

No failures with (50) of the standard Hornaday CD.

Maybe I'll just field-strip and clean it and try another outing with the standard CD. If I continue to have issues I will take the slide down all the way, inspect it, and clean it.

Thanks

[erichard]

Are there any type of attachments to a dremel that can be used to polish inside the striker channel? I couldn't come up with a jury rigged polishing device to use in mine. Easy enuf to polish/buff the striker itself but would be nice to get inside the channel.

I'm not sure what the correct way to do it is, but I used a cotton bore cleaner/mop attached to an extension (that came with my gun cleaning kit, probably meant for rifles). You can then try to put this in a Dremel or portable drill. The end of that extension had a machine screw, so I was cautious in cinching down the lock of the drill or Dremel. There's probably some adapter to do that safely, who knows (don't have a rifle so wasn't a big deal to me). I then put some metal polish on the bore cleaner and went away at polishing the striker channel. Rinse out thoroughly with solvent afterwards. Generally, polishing like that makes a mess of the whole gun due to splash and drip, so it's a good time to polish all you need to do in one sitting before cleaning it up well. I think I've done this for polishing the chamber of guns as well.

Next time, I might use some Militec metal conditioner and a blow dryer to give it a long lasting lubricity while leaving no residue that might attract crud.

I wonder with regards to these broken strikers if it might be worth heat treating them ourselves. I've read where some people do this with springs after stretching them to original lengths (after years of use). For springs, it re-sets the metal, whereas without the heat treatment, the metal is weakened by stretching. I think people were putting the springs in the oven on a baking sheet at like 400 degrees for 45 minutes. Not sure if that would help the striker, but it might. Maybe a metallurgist could answer. Seems we have all types reading the gun forums.

[cobrasjp]

If the strikers are breaking due to metal fatigue (in layman's terms the metal 'crystallized', but steel is always a crystal, so this is technically incorrect) there is no amount of heat treating that will remove the fatigue damage (usually in the form of a crack).

If fatigue cracks haven't started, the striker could be annealed and heat treated, depending on the carbon content of the steel and the desired mechanical properties. But this is way beyond the scope of expertise available to the average DIYer. If you know what a phase diagram is and you know how to read a time-temperature-transformation graph, then you are probably qualified to determine your own heat treatment process. Otherwise it should be left to the professionals.

Regarding baking the springs in an oven, that would just anneal (think soften) them, assuming the temperature is above the recrystallization temperature of the particular grade of spring steel, which is usually well above the temperature that a kitchen oven can produce. Baking a spring at 400 degrees just leaves you with a hot spring. Any perceived change in properties is just due to the placebo affect.

I think a better approach would be to let the engineers at Kahr analyze the problem (assuming there actually is one) and determine what is the best fix.

[erichard]

Ask and ye shall receive. Thanks.

[bobbyh]

Today I went back to the range after doing the pencil test (which it passed) and cleaning the pistol as I normally do.

I shot 50 rounds of Hornaday CD and I had one click/no boom on round #26 with my #2 magazine (all click failures were with this magazine, not sure if that matters). Otherwise all the other 49 rounds fired off fine.

I'm going to try another 50 next time without the #2 magazine and see if that does anything. Still hoping this works itself out in the end?

[pcv57]

My P380 was just sent back from Kahr. I was having similar issues with several light strikes. When I asked what they did, the rep said that several new parts were replaced and 2 new mags. I'll see the work order and exactly what parts were replaced when I pick it up tomorrow at the LGS. I'll follow up with a report once I get a chance to get to the range.

[muggsy]

Today I went back to the range after doing the pencil test (which it passed) and cleaning the pistol as I normally do.

I shot 50 rounds of Hornaday CD and I had one click/no boom on round #26 with my #2 magazine (all click failures were with this magazine, not sure if that matters). Otherwise all the other 49 rounds fired off fine.

I'm going to try another 50 next time without the #2 magazine and see if that does anything. Still hoping this works itself out in the end?

It's possible that the slide isn't going fully into battery by a fraction of an inch. That would soften the blow of the striker. You might try a new recoil spring. If your gun passed the pencil test it's probably not the striker or striker spring.

[bobbyh]

It's possible that the slide isn't going fully into battery by a fraction of an inch. That would soften the blow of the striker. You might try a new recoil spring. If your gun passed the pencil test it's probably not the striker or striker spring.

Is the factory recoil spring my only option?

I e-mailed Kahr and they said to RMA it again if I continue to have the light primer strikes.

[topgun1953]

There is a thread around here somewhere that discusses the fact that the rear 'foot' of the striker hits the top round in the Mag when it come forward. I guess if your rounds are really tight in the magazine then a lot of energy would be absorbed by that hit, leaving only a small amount for the actual strike of the primer. Do you notice a difference in how easily the cartridges can be moved in a loaded mag?

[muggsy]

There is a very good article on stress cracks and metal fatigue in this months issue of the NRA publication "The American Rifleman" for those of you who are interested.

[muggsy]

There is a thread around here somewhere that discusses the fact that the rear 'foot' of the striker hits the top round in the Mag when it come forward. I guess if your rounds are really tight in the magazine then a lot of energy would be absorbed by that hit, leaving only a small amount for the actual strike of the primer. Do you notice a difference in how easily the cartridges can be moved in a loaded mag?

I don't think that that happens. The striker is partially reset as the slide moves forward. See link and scroll down.

http://www.kahr.com/kahr-unique-design.asp

[bobbyh]

I don't think that that happens. The striker is partially reset as the slide moves forward. See link and scroll down.

http://www.kahr.com/kahr-unique-design.asp

I don't have any issues with the bullets in the magazine from what I can tell.

I have (3) factory 6 rd. magazines from day one that I've used and I have 900 rds. through the pistol. Kahr has replaced quite a few parts during the two RMA trips; but I haven't done anything with the magazines. Perhaps the springs are worn?

I can try some new factory recoil springs as well; they're relatively cheap. I don't see any other aftermarket springs for the Khar 380 offered.

What stinks is the light primer strikes have occurred between Hornaday CD ammo (that everyone likes) and some Precision One XTP90 ammo as well.

I guess I refuse to give up yet and will try some additional ammo at the range this weekend and if not RMA it again. Though with my luck they would solve my light strike issues and my FTF issues would return!

I appreciate all the help and support so far from everyone; this is a great site.

[topgun1953]

I don't think that that happens. The striker is partially reset as the slide moves forward. See link and scroll down.

http://www.kahr.com/kahr-unique-design.asp

im talking about when the striker is released. On its way to striking the primer the back end hits the top cartridge. Put in some snap caps, pull the trigger, and remove the mag. That top cartridge is now a few mm forward.
The thread title is 'New Cw380 - Help!' Haven't learned how to copy the url to my post yet. :(
and bobbyh don't give up, they're great guns, fun to shoot once you get it worked out !

[Ikeo74]

How many of you guys that have had broken strikers have been dry firing your guns a lot? Dry firing "will eventually" break strikers even if there is nothing wrong with the gun. It is a fact, and happens to all makes and brands of guns.

[muggsy]

im talking about when the striker is released. On its way to striking the primer the back end hits the top cartridge. Put in some snap caps, pull the trigger, and remove the mag. That top cartridge is now a few mm forward.
The thread title is 'New Cw380 - Help!' Haven't learned how to copy the url to my post yet. :(
and bobbyh don't give up, they're great guns, fun to shoot once you get it worked out !

The cartridge in the magazine moves forward when you chamber a round because the rim of the round being chambered catches in the grove of the next cartridge in the magazine. It has absolutely nothing to do with the striker.

[rickbsgu]

Check the firing pin extension (with the spring removed) It should stick out enough to put a good dent in the primer (assuming the back part of the casing butts up flush against the breach.)


I bought a used PM9 that had the same issues, especially w/ S&B ammo (known for having hard primers.)

I subsequently bought a new one and, on comparison, noted the firing pin on the used one wasn't extending as far as the new one - about two thirds as far. On disassembly of the slide, I noted a lot of gunk down at the end of the striker channel. Had a hard time getting anything down there to clean it out.

Did these things:


Bought a new striker and spring from Kahr.
Bought an end-cutting mill tool same diameter as the channel. Has blades at the bottom, squared off.
Used the mill tool (by hand) to scrape out the gunk at the bottom. The blades could get right into the corners and clean it all out.
Cleaned it all up and replaced the striker and spring with the new one.


With that, the gun has fired 100% of the time. Ultimately, the pin has to extend far enough to dent the primer pretty good.


If I hadn't gotten enough extension, I would have had a smith deepen the channel to get good extension.

[gb6491]

im talking about when the striker is released. On its way to striking the primer the back end hits the top cartridge. Put in some snap caps, pull the trigger, and remove the mag. That top cartridge is now a few mm forward.
The thread title is 'New Cw380 - Help!' Haven't learned how to copy the url to my post yet. :(
and bobbyh don't give up, they're great guns, fun to shoot once you get it worked out !
Here ya go: http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?25626-New-CW380-Help!
Regards,
Greg

[bobbyh]

Check the firing pin extension (with the spring removed) It should stick out enough to put a good dent in the primer (assuming the back part of the casing butts up flush against the breach.)


I bought a used PM9 that had the same issues, especially w/ S&B ammo (known for having hard primers.)

I subsequently bought a new one and, on comparison, noted the firing pin on the used one wasn't extending as far as the new one - about two thirds as far. On disassembly of the slide, I noted a lot of gunk down at the end of the striker channel. Had a hard time getting anything down there to clean it out.

Did these things:


Bought a new striker and spring from Kahr.
Bought an end-cutting mill tool same diameter as the channel. Has blades at the bottom, squared off.
Used the mill tool (by hand) to scrape out the gunk at the bottom. The blades could get right into the corners and clean it all out.
Cleaned it all up and replaced the striker and spring with the new one.


With that, the gun has fired 100% of the time. Ultimately, the pin has to extend far enough to dent the primer pretty good.


If I hadn't gotten enough extension, I would have had a smith deepen the channel to get good extension.

Thanks; it looks like another thing to look at to see if that might be causing an issue. I have access to machine tools at work.

I haven't stripped the pistol down that far yet; but might do that very soon.

[tigman250]

The cartridge in the magazine moves forward when you chamber a round because the rim of the round being chambered catches in the grove of the next cartridge in the magazine. It has absolutely nothing to do with the striker.

The striker indeed catches the top round in the magazine, drop your mag and clear the gun, insert a mag loaded with a dummy round and pull the trigger. Now before racking the slide try to remove the mag, the round will be slid far enough ahead that you have to physically pull on it to remove it and when it comes out the round will be tipped up.

to the OP, I think one of two things are happening, either (like already stated) the striker is getting too much interference from the top round softening it's hit on the primer. Or you're gun isn't going 100% into battery causing the light strikes. This would be ammo related and it sounds like it is only happening on a few different ammo's HERE (http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?26232-Found-solution-to-FTF-and-failure-to-return-to-battery-on-CW-380) is a thread that describes more of what I believe is going on, the rims on the problem ammo may be just a bit thicker which may certainly cause battery issues......on the other hand if the rims are just a tad bigger in diameter that could cause the striker to catch it more too. I would start with a good look at the problem ammo comparing precision measurements between them and known good ammo. good luck!

[bobbyh]

Hit the range today again and didn't have any better luck. This was after a full cleaning and putting in a new recoil spring.

I had three light strikes/clicks and no fire on 3 rounds (one was the very first round). 2 were with some Freedom Munitions XTP and 1 with the Hornaday CD.

So that has been three range trips since I got my pistol back from Kahr for FTF issues (which I haven't had once since it was returned). And on all three range trips I've had the light strike issue with three different types of ammo.

I'm going to contact Kahr and get an RMA for it's third return trip to them. Hopefully they can eliminate the issue; but can't say I'm too confident.

I appreciate all the help offered in here but not sure I'm quite ready to start milling down strikers and some of the other suggestions to get it to work. I'm at over 900 rounds so far and if I was carrying it today and I needed my pistol I would have been out of luck right at the first shot!

[thegrimdog22]

When chambering a round in my cw380, I notice that the next round in the mag is shifted forward too. I am guessing that when the bullet it chambered, it pulls the next bullet in the mag with it somewhat.

This is my first Kahr firearm, and it has been nothing but trouble for me. I might as well have Kahr Arms on speed dial. Got the gun brand new and it wouldn't even chamber the first round when I went to the range. Called Kahr and they had me ship my gun in. Got it back the next week and their "fix" was a very unprofessional hack job to my brand new gun. After having to take pics and sending it back in again, they dressed up the original grind marks even though I claimed that a slide this out of spec should have been replaced in the first place. They were informed that at most 15 rounds were put through the gun before it was back in their possession. There is now a piece of metal with a crack next to the slide release and they said that would just be fixed with a file, IF is ship it back to them for a 3rd time. Needless to say, FedEx and Kahr have had my firearm longer than I have. Now they wont return my emails or phone calls including the gunsmith himself and Melanie.

I understand that products do fail even though I highly doubt this firearm was test fired since I couldn't even get more than one consecutive shot off while forcing the slide forward. The way the company treats customers says a lot, and this is why I went on this rant. I want people to know what they are getting into when dealing with this company. I know for a fact that this type of behavior would never be seen from a reputable company such as Sig. I love the size of the gun as well as the smooth trigger, but this will now be the last Kahr that I own. I did my homework before buying the gun, and heard nothing but good things from them.

Sorry about the rant guys. I am just upset with their lack of support and really want people like me who are trying new brands to be informed. The only good thing I can give the company is that they have around a 1 week turn around period.

If I get around to it, I will upload my images of their repair quality and maybe even make a YouTube video. I don't want this type of service to go unheard.

[erichard]

The striker indeed catches the top round in the magazine, drop your mag and clear the gun, insert a mag loaded with a dummy round and pull the trigger. Now before racking the slide try to remove the mag, the round will be slid far enough ahead that you have to physically pull on it to remove it and when it comes out the round will be tipped up.

This does seem to be the acid test to show they are not being pulled forward by the previous round being chambered and dragging on the next round in the mag as it moves to the top. I did this without a snap cap (cocked with empty chamber), and the top round moved forward almost 1/4 inch.

The question is, is this by design to get that top round slightly forward and make chambering easy for the next cycle, or is this an undesired phenomenon that we should try to rectify? I take it that it's not due to the momentum of the striker hitting the gun as a whole that sends the round forward and is rather a direct contact of the striker tab (see http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a466/btowngeorge/KahrLubePoints.jpg just above #7 arrow on the lube diagram...not sure of it's official name) hitting the top rear of the top round in the mag? That would seem to be an odd design wouldn't it, since that striker needs to keep moving and hit the primer sufficiently.

Anybody have an idea whether this is by design or whether we should be fixing this?

One side effect is that when the bullet is pulled forward, the tip is no longer supported by the bullet below it, and the round is more likely to tip downwards, increasing the likelihood of nosediving. If the bullet is fully back in the magazine, the bullet is aimed in an upward trajectory, which helps avoid nosedives.

[erichard]

OK, so I just redid the test but marked the rear of the top round with a sharpie so as to see if it got dinged by the striker tab. Sure enough, there is a very minimal etching at the very top of the rim of the casing of that round, like a butter knife had scratched there (that thin). No other mark was noticed. Since it was so minimal, I'm guessing that it wouldn't take much filing of that striker tab to eliminate this, assuming that's desireable. Seems so marginal a scrape that it can't be by design, IMHO.

I suppose the other hypothesis could be that the mag is situated a hair too high by the mag release. Maybe so? Probably wouldn't take much to correct that, but maybe it's not a fix because to do it, you'd need to drop the mag below where the pickup rail needs the mag to be to engage the top round and chamber it.

Perhaps it's true on some Kahrs and not others due to slight variance in manufacturing from one piece to another.

If anybody does the test (empty chamber, loaded mag, to see if top round is pulled forward on dry firing) and doesn't notice the round being pulled forward, it would be interesting to know. It would also being interesting to see if those folks, who didn't notice it, had trouble free Kahrs vs the rest of us. Perhaps this is a key aspect of the problems.a

Edit, later that night: Tried it with an empty shell in the chamber (like a snap cap I suppose), and the top round in the mag didn't move forward nearly as much, maybe a 1/16 inch or a little more. So it seems the firing pin of the striker is limited in forward movement due to hitting the casing, which then stops the striker tab from pushing the top round in the mag a quarter inch forward (limits movement to around 1/16th, which is tolerable). Lesson is, don't rely on testing with chamber empty because it's much different that with a round in the chamber, which would simulate real world conditions.

[bobbyh]

When chambering a round in my cw380, I notice that the next round in the mag is shifted forward too. I am guessing that when the bullet it chambered, it pulls the next bullet in the mag with it somewhat.

This is my first Kahr firearm, and it has been nothing but trouble for me. I might as well have Kahr Arms on speed dial. Got the gun brand new and it wouldn't even chamber the first round when I went to the range. Called Kahr and they had me ship my gun in. Got it back the next week and their "fix" was a very unprofessional hack job to my brand new gun. After having to take pics and sending it back in again, they dressed up the original grind marks even though I claimed that a slide this out of spec should have been replaced in the first place. They were informed that at most 15 rounds were put through the gun before it was back in their possession. There is now a piece of metal with a crack next to the slide release and they said that would just be fixed with a file, IF is ship it back to them for a 3rd time. Needless to say, FedEx and Kahr have had my firearm longer than I have. Now they wont return my emails or phone calls including the gunsmith himself and Melanie.

I understand that products do fail even though I highly doubt this firearm was test fired since I couldn't even get more than one consecutive shot off while forcing the slide forward. The way the company treats customers says a lot, and this is why I went on this rant. I want people to know what they are getting into when dealing with this company. I know for a fact that this type of behavior would never be seen from a reputable company such as Sig. I love the size of the gun as well as the smooth trigger, but this will now be the last Kahr that I own. I did my homework before buying the gun, and heard nothing but good things from them.

Sorry about the rant guys. I am just upset with their lack of support and really want people like me who are trying new brands to be informed. The only good thing I can give the company is that they have around a 1 week turn around period.

If I get around to it, I will upload my images of their repair quality and maybe even make a YouTube video. I don't want this type of service to go unheard.

I know your frustration all too well. One of my problems when I first was having FTF issues was a rather large burr on the inside of the slide. All they did to fix the burr was to file it down which left the area sharp and looking ugly. I was surprised by this repair. I had to send it in a second time before the FTF issue went away.

Now I am battling light primer strikes as mentioned in this post and it's back to Kahr a third and most likely last time. If this doesn't fix it I'm done with my CW380 no matter how great it feels/shoots for me.

I know you are giving up on Kahr and I can't blame you. However; I have a CM9 with 900+ rounds through it and it has had zero malfunctions. Perhaps you can give one a try down the road if you are in the market for a tiny 9mm. I just think Kahr needs to make some additional effort to modify the design of their 380 pistols to eliminate common issues we see all over the board.

[ulflyer]

I've not read the previous 3 pages of this thread so maybe this has been mentioned already; when I got my CW380 I did the fluff and buff to include sanding down the follower of the mag, grinding down the lower end of the ramp to keep the mag/bullet from touching, and slight sanding of the the slide release. Never had any problems and have put hundreds of WWB thru it.

I can well understand the frustration of the above guys. Hard to understand why a company doesn't fix obvious problems before they leave the factory. Certainly they need better quality control.

[thegrimdog22]

I was actually on the fence with the 380 until I shot the PM9, which basically sold the gun. I want to like the guns, but they really left a bad taste in my mouth.

I do agree with the quality control. Even the polymer frame has burs in many spots on the inside. Seems like the polishing you did helped, but we should never have to do something like that to a brand new gun. It's just too bad because they sure have one heck of a good double action trigger.

These were the pictures of me trying to shoot the gun when I first got it brand new. Multiple types of 380 ammo were used to verify problem:

http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/thegrimdog22/slideshow/Kahr%20CW380%20Range

And this was after they "reworked slide."

http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/thegrimdog22/slideshow/Kahr%20CW380%20After%20Return

The wear marks right next to the striker hole are apparently normal according to the gunsmith and not from the initial feeding issue, with only 25 rounds through the gun...

As for the bullets shifting in the mag, I am not crazy about it, but it does not seem to be an issue chambering the next round. I notice it when I chamber a round and go to put a sixth round in the mag after. Little harder to drop the mag.

[ulflyer]

Grimdog, wish you lived in my area. You dont happen to live in NC do you? I'd love to do a polish on yours to see it actually made a difference. My 380 and 9mm both got the treatment, but the 45acp was my first and I've had it for some years and never done a thing to it. I'm not sure this forum was in existent then, but it sure does have a wealth of good information in the tech section.

As to the bullet cocking up slightly and being slide forward a bit, I think thats normal on all of them. At least it is on my three.

[tigman250]

Edit, later that night: Tried it with an empty shell in the chamber (like a snap cap I suppose), and the top round in the mag didn't move forward nearly as much, maybe a 1/16 inch or a little more. So it seems the firing pin of the striker is limited in forward movement due to hitting the casing, which then stops the striker tab from pushing the top round in the mag a quarter inch forward (limits movement to around 1/16th, which is tolerable). Lesson is, don't rely on testing with chamber empty because it's much different that with a round in the chamber, which would simulate real world conditions.

It may contact less but it is still contacting, this may be some of the issues with the broken strikers, the striker is designed to stop when it hits the primer, by meeting resistance on the back side it may be fatiguing the striker over time.

[erichard]

It may contact less but it is still contacting, this may be some of the issues with the broken strikers, the striker is designed to stop when it hits the primer, by meeting resistance on the back side it may be fatiguing the striker over time.

Yes, it's definitely still contacting the top round in the mag, and the only reason that round doesn't go farther forward is because the round in the chamber stops the striker from going any farther. It's an odd design. It is possible that they designed it this way on purpose to unlock the top two rounds, which tend to link together at the back of the casings when tilted upwards in the mag. By unlocking the rounds, it can move forward more easily when it's time to chamber with the next cycle. However, if it goes too far, it is no longer supported by the round underneath, and can nosedive, especially in the extended mag.

A lot going on in a tiny space in that Kahr 380, and it all has to time perfectly with very little margin for error.

[tigman250]

Yes, it's definitely still contacting the top round in the mag, and the only reason that round doesn't go farther forward is because the round in the chamber stops the striker from going any farther. It's an odd design. It is possible that they designed it this way on purpose to unlock the top two rounds, which tend to link together at the back of the casings when tilted upwards in the mag. By unlocking the rounds, it can move forward more easily when it's time to chamber with the next cycle. However, if it goes too far, it is no longer supported by the round underneath, and can nosedive, especially in the extended mag.

A lot going on in a tiny space in that Kahr 380, and it all has to time perfectly with very little margin for error.

Anything is possible, but I can't imagine incorporating striker interference into a design, just asking for trouble IMHO.

[erichard]

Anything is possible, but I can't imagine incorporating striker interference into a design, just asking for trouble IMHO.

Yeah, the only reason I wonder is because apparently all the Kahr's do this (?). They must be aware of the issue I would think.

[rickbsgu]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing that's by design. The tolerances would have to be crazy tight for that to work consistently.

If it were mine, I think I'd get another striker and try relieving the clearance. If that worked, do the same to the original. Never hurts to have another striker, anyway.

[erichard]

If it were mine

Are you implying when you do the test on yours without anything chambered that your top round in the mag doesn't move forward? I just got the sense everyone's Kahr had movement forward. Mine was nearly a quarter inch forward without a snapcap type chambered.

If nearly everyone's moves forward, then the height of that tab is by design and may by design affect when the trigger breaks in the striker fire cycle. I was a little concerned it might break too early if I ground down the tab. I may yet get a second striker, but as it is my gun is working 100% for the last 100 rounds, so I'm reluctant to fool with success.

Off topic, my gun now even works with WWB from top to bottom round in the mag. I got it working so well by marginally grinding the slope of the feed ramp from where the bullet hits the ramp (even in a nose dive) to the lip of the chamber (while still maintaining nearly all original support for the chambered casing). The feed ramp also has a near mirror polish. The only bullet that doesn't work is the Lehigh XP in the top two slots of the mag, and that is due to the narrow asymmetry of the feed ramp which does not support the "X" on the right side of the feed ramp (where it jams) if in the "X" rather than "+" orientation. My issues with the 7 round mag may have been related to the striker generated forward movement, but I no longer use the extended mag.

I'd be interested how many folks do not have a gun where the top round moves forward (and significantly if the chamber is empty). Maybe we should just make another thread to ask that question, maybe poll it, since it gets lost in the discussion here.

[erichard]

Thanks very much. Interesting, you didn't take off the top (or bottom when upside down) of that foot or tab, but took off the front of it. Makes sense after seeing the other Kahr slides. I wonder if this means your striker isn't pulled back as far after racking the slide, which would mean there is less force going forward when the striker is released, which might affect the force hitting the primer. Just my mind wondering of the consequences. I'd want to know the ramifications before doing this.

On the other hand, if your gun has no light strikes, then maybe cutting back that foot optimizes the striker pin's forward force such that it is less likely to break, since it is jarred less forcefully with each shot. Maybe that's why we are having striker pin breakage.

If this is peculiar to only some 380's, then I do think it has some bearing on the nosedive issue, particularly in the 7 round mag, because when that round is forward enough, there is simply no support for the tip of that top round (as opposed to the round when situated toward the rear as intended.)

[erichard]

Well, if you're not having light strikes...., the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I may have to try this mod unless someone here grabs me by the shoulders and talks me out of it. Modifying your gun is like a woman going for plastic surgery... the first time or two may work in her favor, but can she stop there? Always tempting to do more.

PS I'm in Bucks Co, so same snow here.

[BEARDOG]

York Co. here we have about 4" so far... Yes I won't know for sure till like I said I can get it out for some range time. But I have high confidence in it to work just fine.

[erichard]

Yes I won't know for sure till like I said I can get it out for some range time. But I have high confidence in it to work just fine.

Thinking about it more, I believe you will be proven correct. Although the spring compression will be proportionally less, the mod will also allow the striker pin to hit the primer without the foot being slowed down (had it hit the top round in the mag.) So it's entirely possible that with the mod, you actually hit the primer harder, ironically.

Would be nice if Kahr had a tech expert that monitored this forum to less us know if we are on to something or not. I guess it's hard for them to admit error given the financial consequences of potentially having to replace so many striker pins. On the other hand, their reputation would move a step or two away from Diamondback reliability towards Glock reliability. That's got to be worth a chunk of change.

[Buzzard45]

BEARDOG, did this mod change the amount of protrusion of the firing pin? I`m thinking not. just curious

[BEARDOG]

Buzzard45 I do not think so, but I did not take a pin protrusion measurement before I made the change, so I can not say for sure. Sorry

erichard I've decided till I can get out to test fire my gun to remove my mod info posts from yesterday.
So consider this me "grabbing you by the shoulders" :)

[Alfonse]

BEARDOG, did this mod change the amount of protrusion of the firing pin? I`m thinking not. just curious

Firing pin protrusion is based on the length of the pin from the front face of the striker. That change should not change it.

[tigman250]

Would be nice if Kahr had a tech expert that monitored this forum to less us know if we are on to something or not. I guess it's hard for them to admit error given the financial consequences of potentially having to replace so many striker pins. On the other hand, their reputation would move a step or two away from Diamondback reliability towards Glock reliability. That's got to be worth a chunk of change.

It seems like this forum is littered with guys tinkering with their Kahrs to make them more reliable! Many guys send them in 2 or 3 times to have them fixed! I think Kahr is really on to something with a well built firearm but I am surprised they have so many repeat customers with all the little bugs left in their designs, my CW 380 is my first Kahr......probably my last as well. I enjoy tinkering with firearms but to customize them, not to make them function!! Like I said Kahr has a well built firearm but their attention to detail and follow through suck! I can't imagine a company letting a design go to production with so many quirks, don't they do R&D or beta testing!? They are priced equal or higher than their direct competition but yet their reliability is down with the budget models.

[berettabone]

I'll start by saying that I don't "tinker" with any of my firearms, unless they need it for functionality purposes. The only bad one's you see, are on this forum. The rest of the thousands are just fine. Happens with every manufacturer, in all models.

[tigman250]

I agree, you only hear about the "bad" ones on the forums, that said, I have a large group of shooting/gun buddies, out of the 4 Kahrs we own all of them have needed some tweaking to get them to function reliably, 2 of which needed tweaking to get them to function pretty much at all. Between all of us I would guess we own in the vicinity of 40 pistols, out of Glocks, Smiths, Springfields, Rugers, Colts, Kahrs, Diabomd Backs, KelTecs, and probably some I am forgetting none have needed major tweaks other than a Diamond Back 380 (trigger wouldn't reset, light primer strikes) and a G34 (that gun never malfunctioned, it was only tweaked to adjust ejection) so in my personal experience Kahrs fall short of the reliability bar set by their competition.

[erichard]

erichard I've decided till I can get out to test fire my gun to remove my mod info posts from yesterday.
So consider this me "grabbing you by the shoulders" :)

I'll be on the edge of my seat waiting for the results. It was one of the better posts on the board. I measured mine and also got .14 inches. I assume everyone's is that dimension, although you never know. I was tempted to do the mod last night, but held off waiting for your testing.

One thing you've proved, without doubt, is that the striker foot is in fact hitting the top round of the mag, because by trimming it, the issue went away. This is proof positive, especially when added to the test mentioned earlier (with or without snap cap in chamber) and my seeing the strike on the back of the casing when colored with a Sharpie.

You do have to wonder if Kahr understands the cause of this phenomenon.

[Stingray]

When chambering a round in my cw380, I notice that the next round in the mag is shifted forward too. I am guessing that when the bullet it chambered, it pulls the next bullet in the mag with it somewhat.

This is my first Kahr firearm, and it has been nothing but trouble for me. I might as well have Kahr Arms on speed dial. Got the gun brand new and it wouldn't even chamber the first round when I went to the range. Called Kahr and they had me ship my gun in. Got it back the next week and their "fix" was a very unprofessional hack job to my brand new gun. After having to take pics and sending it back in again, they dressed up the original grind marks even though I claimed that a slide this out of spec should have been replaced in the first place. They were informed that at most 15 rounds were put through the gun before it was back in their possession. There is now a piece of metal with a crack next to the slide release and they said that would just be fixed with a file, IF is ship it back to them for a 3rd time. Needless to say, FedEx and Kahr have had my firearm longer than I have. Now they wont return my emails or phone calls including the gunsmith himself and Melanie.

I understand that products do fail even though I highly doubt this firearm was test fired since I couldn't even get more than one consecutive shot off while forcing the slide forward. The way the company treats customers says a lot, and this is why I went on this rant. I want people to know what they are getting into when dealing with this company. I know for a fact that this type of behavior would never be seen from a reputable company such as Sig. I love the size of the gun as well as the smooth trigger, but this will now be the last Kahr that I own. I did my homework before buying the gun, and heard nothing but good things from them.

Sorry about the rant guys. I am just upset with their lack of support and really want people like me who are trying new brands to be informed. The only good thing I can give the company is that they have around a 1 week turn around period.

If I get around to it, I will upload my images of their repair quality and maybe even make a YouTube video. I don't want this type of service to go unheard.

I can completely relate to what you're going through and feeling, but in my case it is with a Kel-Tec P32 that I really want to like and carry. I've probably spent more money on ammo trying to solve the problems than I spent on the gun to begin with. And the aggravation and time wasting factor is infuriating. So I went out and bought a PM9 to replace it as my EDC. My PM9 has been awesome and flawless from the 1st shot. Never a failure of any kind, even during the break in period, after more than 1000 rds of FMJ and about 300 of various JHP. In fact, it's the only semi-auto that I've never had any failure with, and I've owned all of the major brands, and still have a dozen or so. The PM9 was the only 9mm I could find that fits in most of my pants pockets.

So, totally impressed and happy with my PM9, I've decided to buy a Kahr 380 for those few times that the PM9 is too big, and to dump the P32 (in the ocean). I was initially going to go with the CW380 to save some money so I started reading this forum more thoroughly to check it out. Now I'm not so sure about it with all the threads I've seen re various issues like fining pin breakage an so forth. I'm wondering, do owners of the P380 have the same issues? Do they use the same firing pins? Maybe the extra money is well spent.

And to the OP, I would just replace the firing pin myself and see if that cures it before sending it back a 3rd time.

[bobbyh]

And to the OP, I would just replace the firing pin myself and see if that cures it before sending it back a 3rd time.

I actually sent it back already a week ago for it's third trip home. They returned it to me and the Service work sheet said that they reworked the slide and replaced the recoil springs and extractor. Lubed and tested good with 30 rounds (though I wish they would just list what ammunition they use).

I will test it out this weekend and report back if my light primer strike issue was solved and if any other issues arise or return!


*** Update on range trip 3/28 ***

I shot my CW 380 today after it's 3rd trip back from Kahr for light primer strikes. I shot 50 rounds of 90 gr. Freedom Munitions JHP XTP + 50 rounds of PMC Bronze FMJ.

My light primer strikes are finally gone and I had no FTF issues that I had when I sent it back the first 2 times as mentioned in other threads.

However; I did have 1 stovepipe of the spent case with the Freedom ammo and 2 stovepipes of the spent cases with the PMC. These all occurred at different times during the 100 total rounds.

As mentioned above they did replace the recoil springs so maybe that might be the cause of the stovepipe issues though maybe I was limpwristing or dragging the slide (though I doubt that is the case).

I will give it one or two more range trips with some other ammo to help break in the recoil springs and see if the stovepipes subside. If not I'll keep this as a range only pistol to play around with and buy either another CW380 or go back to my trusty, yet unfriendly to shoot LCP. :D

***Update on range trip on 4/3***

I shot 50 rounds of Hornaday CD today at the range with zero issues! Hopefully this is a start of a better trend than I've been having.

[bobbyh]

Bump for update in post #58 (sorry don't know how to bump a post I edited)!

[SmokyT]

The striker indeed catches the top round in the magazine, ... I think one of two things are happening, either (like already stated) the striker is getting too much interference from the top round softening it's hit on the primer. ...

Using a snap cap and sharpie, and through many "pencil tests", I also confirmed that this was in fact the problem with my P380, which was suffering persistent light strike issues regardless of the ammo used. But I have fixed this critically debilitating problem once and for all by filing the foot of the striker slightly (i.e., 0.5mm - 0.7mm) as discussed in this thread.

(Before I modified the original striker in the gun, I had obtained a spare striker from Kahr just in case, though it is stilling in my spare parts box unused.)


... Although the spring compression will be proportionally less, the mod will also allow the striker pin to hit the primer without the foot being slowed down (had it hit the top round in the mag.) So it's entirely possible that with the mod, you actually hit the primer harder, ironically. ...

I have also range-tested this hypothesis (but with a slightly extra power custom striker spring I fabricated). With the modified striker and extra power striker spring in the gun, I test-fired:
* 31 rounds of Speer GD
* 25 rounds of Hornady CD
* 100 rounds of Blazer Brass FMJ
* 100 rounds of Federal American Eagle FMJ
* 50 rounds of UMC FMJ

There was not a single instance of light strike that used to occur so often (with the stock striker), no matter what ammo I had tried. The problem went away completely.

Now my P380 goes bang every time I pull the trigger no matter what commercial ammo I shoot. So the extra power striker spring may or may not be needed any more. But I am more inclined to keep it in just to be sure of reliable ignition and also because it does not make the trigger pull any heavier, anyway.

[SmokyT]

**UPDATE**
Last month I shot additional 165 rounds with the modified striker to make sure that the light strike/ignition problem has been eliminated:
15 rounds of Speer GD
50 rounds of Remington/UMC 90gr FMJ
100 rounds of Freedom Munitions 100gr RNFP (new)

Again my P380 with the modified striker fired every one of the 165 rounds with no malfunction of any kind. This makes a total of 471 rounds of 6 different commercial ammo successfully fired with the modified striker with no light strike or ignition failure of any kind.

Before the modification to the striker foot, the rate of ignition failure due to light strikes was at least 10% even with the striker channel completely cleaned before each range session. Since the modification, the rate of ignition failure has been 0.00% for the last 471 rounds of 6 different commercial ammo, across all of which (except for Freedom Munitions 100gr RNFP) light strikes used to manifest before the modification. (I used Freedom Munitions 100gr RNFP the first time for this session.) It is also worth noting that I have shot these 471 rounds (and more) without cleaning the striker channel like I used to do when I was having the light strike problems.

I will continue to document the round counts and future occurrence of light strike/ignition failure (if it ever happens again). However, I believe it is now safe to conclude that at least in my particular case, this simple but careful modification to the striker foot has completely solved the light strike/ignition problem that several P380/CW380 owners have reported.

[dirtengineer]

**UPDATE**
Last month I shot additional 165 rounds with the modified striker to make sure that the light strike/ignition problem has been eliminated:
15 rounds of Speer GD
50 rounds of Remington/UMC 90gr FMJ
100 rounds of Freedom Munitions 100gr RNFP (new)

Again my P380 with the modified striker fired every one of the 165 rounds with no malfunction of any kind. This makes a total of 471 rounds of 6 different commercial ammo successfully fired with the modified striker with no light strike or ignition failure of any kind.

Before the modification to the striker foot, the rate of ignition failure due to light strikes was at least 10% even with the striker channel completely cleaned before each range session. Since the modification, the rate of ignition failure has been 0.00% for the last 471 rounds of 6 different commercial ammo, across all of which (except for Freedom Munitions 100gr RNFP) light strikes used to manifest before the modification. (I used Freedom Munitions 100gr RNFP the first time for this session.) It is also worth noting that I have shot these 471 rounds (and more) without cleaning the striker channel like I used to do when I was having the light strike problems.

I will continue to document the round counts and future occurrence of light strike/ignition failure (if it ever happens again). However, I believe it is now safe to conclude that at least in my particular case, this simple but careful modification to the striker foot has completely solved the light strike/ignition problem that several P380/CW380 owners have reported.

Can you detail how you fabricated a custom striker spring?

[Alfonse]

Can you detail how you fabricated a custom striker spring?

I don't believe he modified the striker spring. He modified the foot of the striker, removing some material from it.

GET WELL MUGGSY

[topgun1953]

Thought the same thing, but he did say in an earlier post that he fabricated a spring.

[dirtengineer]

Maybe both? I am anxious to know because I am having light strikes too.

[TheLastDaze]

He probably just bought an lcp or p3at like most do when they're frustrated with kahrs continual 380 problems....

[SmokyT]

I modified the striker as described AND also fabricated an extra power striker spring to make sure that I will not have another light strike with this carry pistol.

Wolff Gunsprings offers extra power recoil spring sets for Kel-Tec P3AT. I used the inner recoil spring of their 11LB recoil spring set, and cut off a couple of coils to adjust the length. This created an extra power striker spring (for my Kahr P380) that is the same length as the Kahr factory original striker spring but just a hair stronger.

I have not collected enough data to determine whether or not an extra power striker spring is necessary to go with the modified striker. Chances are that I may not need an extra power striker spring. However, the bottomline is that I would rather have a pistol that reliably ignites the primer of each and every cartridge in the magazine than a pistol with only slightly lighter trigger pull but cannot reliably ignite primers of my carry ammo....

[kahrinca]

I modified the striker as described AND also fabricated an extra power striker spring to make sure that I will not have another light strike with this carry pistol.

Wolff Gunsprings offers extra power recoil spring sets for Kel-Tec P3AT. I used the inner recoil spring of their 11LB recoil spring set, and cut off a couple of coils to adjust the length. This created an extra power striker spring (for my Kahr P380) that is the same length as the Kahr factory original striker spring but just a hair stronger.

I have not collected enough data to determine whether or not an extra power striker spring is necessary to go with the modified striker. Chances are that I may not need an extra power striker spring. However, the bottomline is that I would rather have a pistol that reliably ignites the primer of each and every cartridge in the magazine than a pistol with only slightly lighter trigger pull but cannot reliably ignite primers of my carry ammo....

The P380 is extremely small and impressive, and it's also quite expensive here in CA. After reading this thread and elsewhere, don't think I'd buy the P380. One shouldn't have to go to such lengths to create a reliable firearm, though you have stated the extra power spring may not be required.

I have a new PM9 and hope that issue is not prevalent with those.

Wish you the best with your difficulty.

[Bobshouse]

The P380 is extremely small and impressive, and it's also quite expensive here in CA. After reading this thread and elsewhere, don't think I'd buy the P380. One shouldn't have to go to such lengths to create a reliable firearm, though you have stated the extra power spring may not be required.

I have a new PM9 and hope that issue is not prevalent with those.

Wish you the best with your difficulty.

I have a California approved P380 and haven't had any problems with the gun. My problems were with underpowered reloads. 2.5 grains of tightgroup (minimum load) was not enough to work the slide, causing stovepipes. After adjusting my loads, zero problems.

Don't let the reports of problems change your mind, remember the rule...If your happy with your purchase, you will tell 2-3 people, if your upset, you will tell 30-40...lol

[topgun1953]

I absolutely love my P380. It fun to shoot, amazingly accurate, and tiny. I went through 3 broken strikers, probably a year a year ago, it's been essentially perfect for I don't know how many hundreds of round. I shoot it almost every weekend....I do end up carrying my sig P938, most of the time but often wonder if 8+1 of 380 (magguts in the ext. mag) is better than 6+1 of 9mm? ...shot placement is key!

[kahrinca]

I absolutely love my P380. It fun to shoot, amazingly accurate, and tiny. I went through 3 broken strikers, probably a year a year ago, it's been essentially perfect for I don't know how many hundreds of round. I shoot it almost every weekend....I do end up carrying my sig P938, most of the time but often wonder if 8+1 of 380 (magguts in the ext. mag) is better than 6+1 of 9mm? ...shot placement is key!

Oh, please! You are far better off with the 938 and 9mm ammo unless you can't hit the side of a barn with it. 9mm does significantly better in ballistic testing than .380.

Also, I am NOT impressed that your P380's gone through 'hundreds of rounds' with this, your 4th striker! If you encounter the very unlikely dangerous encounter where you might have to pull it, the first thought that will go into your mind will likely be: 'Gee, I hope that it fires'. The second thought might be: "Wish that I had the 938 right now'. It's only natural.

As a corollary, if you were carrying the 938 you might wish for a .45. And if you were carrying a .45 you might wish for a shotgun or rifle, instead. Just sayin'... :D

What am I espousing? Best of both worlds- carry the .380 where trouble is less likely to be present. Carry the 938 in those instances where the probability of a bad situation is great or greater. If I were you, I'd likely carry the P380 during the day and the 938 after it's dark. YMMV.

One probably will not ever have to fire either anyway, unless in a higher risk job (LEO, military, security, courier, etc.) or a criminal encounter (drug dealer, domestic violence, robbery, mass shooting incident or a personal or general vendetta as occurred with those reporters the other day). In any event most LEO apparently never fire their weapons (other than during practice) over the course of their careers.

[TheLastDaze]

I absolutely love my P380. It fun to shoot, amazingly accurate, and tiny. I went through 3 broken strikers, probably a year a year ago, it's been essentially perfect for I don't know how many hundreds of round. I shoot it almost every weekend....I do end up carrying my sig P938, most of the time but often wonder if 8+1 of 380 (magguts in the ext. mag) is better than 6+1 of 9mm? ...shot placement is key!

shot placement is key, exactly..... which brings me to this, it really doesn't matter how many rounds you carry if you can easily place a CNS shot, everyone seems to want more round capacity and I get it but in reality if you're only faced with one threat all you need is a few rounds, especially if you train under stress in idpa or equivalent matches...

while I've always considered myself a good shot my first IDPA event was an eye opener...... never practiced with weak hand as much as I should have, never practiced mag changes both tactical and retention changes, never practiced shooting at silhouettes that don't have a red dot or other indicators to aim at, its either center mass or head shot, unmarked other than perforated scoring areas on cardboard that you cannot see until you get up to score.....

I highly recommend a gun and training of anykind that will allow you to place cns shots with out a target with indicators.... shooting at paper, steel is okay for a minute but its how you train that matters and being under stress is the best way possible to see just how good you really are to make "the shot placement" argument hold water....