Magazine capacity

[Pteridine]

I have noticed that on this site and others, many are obsessed with magazine capacity and carrying extra magazines. How many Kahrtalk readers have been in a gunfight as a private citizen?

If you have, how many rounds were expended?

Of those viewing this post, how many haven't been in a gunfight with rounds expended?

[berettabone]

I haven't had to expend any rounds, fortunately..............I also do not carry any extra mags...............If I can't get done, in 7 shots, what I need to get done, I'm definitely in the wrong place, and my a$$ is probably a goner anyway. IMHO:) Yes, some like to dress for success, and I don't have a problem with that either, I just think that in 99% of shooting cases, you won't need all that ammo, because the situation won't last very long, but, what if your that 1%? Be prepared has a different meaning for everyone:)

[wyntrout]

It's more than a "spare tire"... more like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, bad preparation.

I'm no expert, but there are a lot of reasons to carry a spare magazine, especially with a 6 or 7+1 round Kahr. I'll just mention a few. I'm sure that others can add more.

First, magazines fail. We've had newbies come here almost in tears or hysterical that their ONE magazine broke... and in some instances, their TWO mags broke! I have 10 or more mags for .380 through .45. I recently had all 9 of my PM45 mags that were replacements from Kahr fail with shattered springs or the wrong springs... too weak... in my 7-rounders. I did have two replacement springs and followers, so I was able to keep the PM45 in service until I received replacement springs from Kahr. NOTE: You may have noticed that I said 9 mags after espousing 10 or more. Believe me, I have many more... two more Kahr and some 1911 Officer mags for it as well.

Secondly, in an altercation the magazine in the pistol may be lost due to a struggle or the loss of fine motor skills from the adrenaline rush encountered in fight or flight scenarios. Don't discount that if you haven't been there, because it's not like at the gun range with no stress. Whatever the reason, it would be nice to have a backup magazine in a carrier that allows all-aspect access... possibly during a struggle, or while trying to seek cover.

Thirdly, you might actually need the extra ammo, especially if you make it to cover and there are two or more assailants. Cops and good guys alike have blown through high-capacity 15-20-round mags at close range in gunfights, with little or no hits. You aren't prepared for much if you expect to take out the bad guy(s) with 1 or 2 "well-placed" shots... as your 2-inch groups at the range show you're capable of... but not when"your hair's on fire and you're up to your ass in alligators", as some gunfight veterans have described their feelings at the time.

I carry a standard, flush-fitting mag in my Kahr in an IWB holster and a 'high-cap" 7 or 8-round Kahr mag opposite side in an OWB holder. I also carry a spring-assisted Gerber FAST Draw on my weak side for a backup.

I don't expect trouble, but if it finds me, I would rather be "over-prepared" than a complacent victim. Carrying an extra magazine is just part of my carrying a concealed weapon... part of my everyday kit.

Wynn :)

[WMac19]

I more than understand the point about carry an extra mag or two. Sometimes I'll carry a spare, sometimes I won't. I carried my Ruger SPNY for over 20 years with just its five shots.

A buddy of mine was schooling me once about the necessity to carry extra ammo and while I didn't and don't disagree with him, I had to laugh when I pointed out upon our leaving that he was climbing into a tiny Geo Metro and I was getting into my Suburban. I asked if he felt it more likely to be in a car accident or a self-defense situation warranting the use of his gun. Then I wondered why his sense of preparedness with regard to personal safety wouldn't extend to other facets of his life, included chosen automobile.

He laughed and said, "good point."

That point being, some concentrate on one thing in particular, some on many, some on none. Different strokes...

[CJB]

Three. Zero rounds fired. The presence of a firearm ended the problem. Three splibs went running, one large dog got to lick its masters face again, one drunk got a busted nose and two bad headaches. Correction...THREE bad headaches.

[RRP]

I have noticed that on this site and others, many are obsessed with magazine capacity and carrying extra magazines. How many Kahrtalk readers have been in a gunfight as a private citizen?

If you have, how many rounds were expended?

Of those viewing this post, how many haven't been in a gunfight with rounds expended?

The majority of law enforcement professionals are never involved in a gunfight throughout their entire careers. Not surprisingly, the likelihood of private citizens to be faced with a deadly threat resulting in a gunfight is even less.

But before you characterize the value of magazine capacity as an obsession, please consider why you carry a concealed handgun at all.

If your answer is to be prepared to respond to a deadly threat, should one arise, are you willing to limit your odds of survival to 5 or 6 rounds?

People who own a gun for personal protection don't expect to be involved in a gunfight. But, if their lives are threatened, they want to have a fighting chance to survive. To many, that means having sufficient ammo. Of course, it's a personal choice and your mileage may vary.

[Baklash]

My brother was involved in two incidents where no shots were fired. He was the only one with a gun and it kept him from getting his a$$ kicked by two/three men each time. Once they saw the gun they surrendered quicker than the French army. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[wyntrout]

I have a full-sized GMC Savana and like having lots of steel and "crush space" around me. I can carry lots of guns and ammo when I travel, too.

Wynn :)

[Bill K]

Someone obsessed with magazine capacity is not likely carrying a Kahr. Maybe more like a Glock 17 with the spare mag being a happy stick.

To try to answer your question more directly... I've never been in a gunfight but have had use my pistol in SD (knife on gun) - 2 shots. Had it been a gunfight who knows how many rounds might have been fired? I carry a spare mag or when carry my double stack .45 a BUG (generally my P3AT) in place of a thick double stack magazine.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[b4uqzme]

I really don't understand what "having been in a gunfight or not" has to do with it. It's about being prepared for the possibility. That it's a remote possibility is a good thing IMHO. We all have our lines we set for our own safety.

Personally, I'm all over the board. Sometimes I carry a revolver with speed strips, sometimes I stuff a .380 in my pocket, sometimes I have extra speed strips or magazines, sometimes not, sometimes a .45, sometimes 9mm, sometimes .44magnum.....

I guess my point is I'm not too concerned with the capacity argument. Do what you feel is best.

[Armybrat]

Considering the average rounds expended in a gun fight is less than the capacity of a PM9, my CT380's 7+1 will suffice for my tastes. If traveling, extra mags or speed loaders for whatever I'm carrying in the car (1911, CW45, Ruger SP101) is the norm.

The last gun fight I personally witnessed (unarmed), somewhere between 500 - 1,000 rounds were exchanged, and a handgun would've been useless anyway from my vantage point as it was for the local LEOs.

[Pointblank]

I was involved in a couple of incidents, but not as a private citizen. That being said, I am one now and based on my career experience in law enforcement I always carry at least one extra magazine and usually a second gun, although smaller. I also always carry a folding knife, a small flashlight and pepper spray.

[RRP]

I really don't understand what "having been in a gunfight or not" has to do with it. It's about being prepared for the possibility.


I agree with this. Although we acknowledge the possibility of employing deadly force is remote, if we're going to be prepared, I don't want to limit my odds of surviving the attack.

[RRP]

I also always carry a folding knife, a small flashlight and pepper spray.

This is an excellent point.

In the words of Andrew Branca, "Not every problem is a nail; not every solution is a hammer". We must be be ready to use non-lethal force, if the threat does not rise to the level of deadly force. This is not often addressed in gun forums.

[Pteridine]

I started this thread because I was just curious about the many comments on various sites about the need for extra magazines, large-cap mags, larger calibers, etc., even though gunfights seem to be short and fast. Some responded with the fact that they carry extra guns, knives, pepper spray, etc., as insurance premiums so as to be prepared for as many situations as possible.
I think that pepper spray is likely a good idea provided the intended target is leeward. It would solve a problem without deadly consequence and should shooting then be necessary, alleviate the concerns of law enforcement and the DA, somewhat. "Measured response" is all the rage. I always have a knife but it is a Swiss army knife, so I am not truly a deadly individual. I just bought a Kahr CW380 for summer carry. I have a second magazine that I can take when convenient but generally feel that it is unlikely that I would be in a firefight and consider the Kahr with a 6 round mag and one in the tube as sufficient.
Before the Kahr, which is a really nice piece, I carried a P3AT in the summer and a S&W 28 in a shoulder holster in the winter months. An N frame Smith with a 6" barrel is difficult to conceal in summer clothing even by those who say that they can conceal anything and is slightly heavier than the smaller carry pieces. I never worried about reloads for the Smith because I figured the muzzle blast from hot hand loads would incinerate the target. Fortunately, like 99+% of the readers of Kahrtalk, I never had to shoot anyone and then explain a charred corpse with a hole through it. The Kel-Tec wasn't bad but did seem somewhat disposable in construction. The CW380 seemed much better built and I found that it had a similar trigger feel to the 28, only a little lighter. While slightly heavier and thicker than the P3AT [the slide catch/takedown lever does add significantly to the thickness and hangs up on occasion] it is still lighter and smaller than the Smith. The striker action is very smooth relative to the hammers on other pocket pistols and I prefer it. This size is about as big as I think a "pocket pistol" should get. Carrying it in a front pocket barrel-down and pointing back with a piece of plastic jug in front of it to hide any print isn't bad. It is readily accessible, grip up, as long as the pocket is otherwise empty. I did order a DeSantis pocket holster to try out to see if it was any better. I will comment on that when I have tried it for a while.
I also plan to strip the Kahr at some point and look at the fit of the striker with a little Prussian blue to make sure that the impact of the striker on the slide at the end of its travel is on the shoulders and not on the root of the pin. People have said that they find metal shavings and gunk in the firing pin channel which may be stressing the weak point and causing the failures. Does Kahr know about on-line process ultrasonic cleaners? A short stretch of assembly line could save them a lot of money in repairs.

Thanks for your responses, to this point.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ Well said and definitely things we should be thinking about. The question about whether or not we've been in a firefight is just a distraction though IMHO. Good thread BTW. Thanks!

[berettabone]

I think you will like the Desantis holster..............I've been using one, the same one, for going on 4 years................it's basically molded it's shape to my leg, and the firearm comes out smooth. It may print, mine does, but I live in an open carry state, so it's not an issue for me.

[muggsy]

Pointblank and I are on the same page. I always carry a spare magazine, but it's in my back-up gun. In the heat of a gun fight I don't want to fumble a reload or take the chance of a miss-feed. It far faster to drop the first gun and draw the second. I carry a CM9 AIWB and a P380 in my RF pocket. If I can't get the job done with 14 rounds, then shame on me.

[Pteridine]

I think you will like the Desantis holster..............I've been using one, the same one, for going on 4 years................it's basically molded it's shape to my leg, and the firearm comes out smooth. It may print, mine does, but I live in an open carry state, so it's not an issue for me.

I ordered the Nemesis holster but they are inexpensive enough that I wouldn't hesitate to order a second model should that one prove insufficient. What model are you using?

[Pteridine]

Pointblank and I are on the same page. I always carry a spare magazine, but it's in my back-up gun. In the heat of a gun fight I don't want to fumble a reload or take the chance of a miss-feed. It far faster to drop the first gun and draw the second. I carry a CM9 AIWB and a P380 in my RF pocket. If I can't get the job done with 14 rounds, then shame on me.

I believe having a second loaded gun ready is called a "New York reload," from the time when LEO's carried revolvers. http://bearingarms.com/re-examining-new-york-reload/

[Armybrat]

Yes, the Desantis Nemesis worked fine with my LCP. Bought a Remora for my new CT380, and it works very well too - although it's a slightly larger package than the LCP.

[berettabone]

I ordered the Nemesis holster but they are inexpensive enough that I wouldn't hesitate to order a second model should that one prove insufficient. What model are you using?

Nemesis.........................