Muzzle Loader Advice

[b4uqzme]

************ old thread --- you may want to skip to post 56 for today's update **************

OK. Still pondering over the next new hobby. I got a bucket list a mile long ;). One of my choices is to buy a muzzle loader. I'm leaning towards an old-fashioned cap and ball type vs. the new-fangled in-lines as I'm really just into it for the hobby experience. And what about flint-locks?


Anyone have any specific rifles they truly love or recommend? Are any hands-down better than the others? I trust youse guys way more than all them interwebbers out there.

Thanks!

[Bawanna]

To me especially for a newcomer cap and ball is the way to go. Enough of a learning curve by itself without dealing with flint and priming compound and shooting technique.

I think Thompson Center still has a very good rep for front loaders, I have a Renegade model, 54 cal. I've had for probably 30 years, been pondering breaking it out and shooting it this summer, hasn't been out in quite a long time.

Also been thinking of getting some sort of small caliber front stuffer. A squirrel rifle so to speak, maybe 36 cal or so.

There's a lot of good ones out there and black powder is a lot more forgiving in some respects like power but less forgiving in other respects like powder storage etc.

You've renewed my desire to get mine out again. They are a lot of fun and you can shoot all day long pretty cheap too.

I got a 50 too, marketed by Sears I think, never shot that one yet, might have to do that too.

And bless you for turning your nose up at those new fangled inlines. They ain't muzzle stuffers for real no how.
Our ancestors would have turned their noses up at those too. But probably would have bought one anyhow for speed and ease of use.

[RRP]

b4, your quandary reminds me of an old Bellamy Brothers song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzdvQOXxRD4). "Should he hang on to the old; should he grab on to the new...."

I think the answer to your question lies in your reason for wanting to own a muzzle loader. If you are motivated by an interest in historical firearms, then an in-line is not for you. However, if your motivation is to extend deer season by owning a front-stuffer, and you have little passion for the historical perspective, by all means buy a modern muzzle loading rifle.

PS: Years ago, some states had restrictions on the type of muzzle loading rifles they allowed during hunting season. If your reason for owning one of these is to hunt, you may want to check-out laws in your jurisdiction.

[b4uqzme]

Nah, Bambi is safe around me. I saw a Thompson Center Trader (?) on a clearance rack and was wondering if that's a good choice. I'll have to go back and refresh my memory. I went online and the Lymans looked pretty good too. But is there some obscure brand that I'm missing?

[Bawanna]

Check out Track of the Wolf's website. They have some high end stuff but mostly a lot of the other stuff that goes with it.

Lyman's I have seen were nice too. There's just a ton of choices out there, many we probably aren't even aware of and a huge range in price too.

[berettabone]

You may want to check out Knights muzzle loaders.............made in America.......................and like Elmer Fudd used to say..................." be vewy vewy carefuw."

[b4uqzme]

I think I'll actually move forward on this one. Been doing a lot of internet scouring and I'm 99% set on getting a Lyman Trade Rifle caplock. Seems a reasonable choice for a newbie. I'd rather go new so I can be sure that it's my fault should I have any failures. And it seems like you get a lot for the money. Ships right to your house which is pretty cool. No FFL fees.

I'm finding mixed info on rifling twist rate. Mostly it looks like this 1/48 twist will be a good compromise for both ball and conicals. Agreed?

http://muzzle-loaders.com/rifles/lyman/trade-rifle.php

[Bawanna]

That looks like an excellent choice to me. Looks very much like my Thompson Renegade.

The beauty of these as opposed to some is you can just tap out the barrel wedge and remove the barrel from the stock, quick and easy. Then you can just take the barrel in the bathtub with you and swab er out real good with soap and water. Dry er off, oil er some and you don't have to worry about getting the wood and other furniture wet.

Best to do this when the missus ain't around, it stinks something fierce and leaves a hell of a bathtub ring.

[Bill K]

I much prefer the side lock percussion rifle with open sights over the scoped in lines. Just more fun in my opinion. I have a T/C PA Hunter slow twist in .50 cal.

If you're not going to hunt with the rifle then .50 cal is a very good choice. Now a .50 will get er done on deer size game but if I had to do it over again I would have gotten a .54. For most of my shooting fun and practice I use patched round ball (PRB) but for deer I load my PA Hunter with a 240 grain Hornady PA Conical. If I had a .54 I'd just stick to PRB.

http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/6617.jpg

[Bawanna]

I used Maxi Balls (speer I think) in my 54. Put em in a pop can at 100 yards pretty easy. I never tried PRB but always figured I'd give it try, never got round to it yet.

[b4uqzme]

Yep, I plan on PRB for the most part and hunting for pop cans like the Colonel. The .50cal should be fine and easy to find stuff/balls/accessories...

Thanks the the tip on the bath. We're shower people around here though. Other than the cat who uses the tub for a mouse torture chamber. :)

[Bawanna]

A 5 gallon bucket will work but the bathtub is right handy. You could use the nasty water to help torment the mouse.

Consider it waterboarding with nasty water. I kind of make the barrel into a straw and suck the water up through the nipple and then push it back out, cleans the barrel and the nipple area really well.

We're shower people too but still got a bathtub in one bathroom so if I get to shooting it again I'm still ok.

[hardluk1]

I never really got into BR firearms but there a season for it on many states sooo I have one . I have what was a looow cost nickel plated CVA Optima with a 26" barrel with a 1-28 twist that must be 17 or 18 years old and a regular burris 3-9 full field on it . zero is 200 yards . Use's 209 primers and triple seven powder and hornady's 250gr sst sabot. I use to use 50 gr pellets but now 2-60gr . Good for right at 2000fps . Makes a solid 250 yard BP rifle . Its as accurate as a most centerfires with two 50gr pellets but far flatter shooting with two 60gr pellets . Cleans up easy with water and the pellets hold up well in water weather .

Wow I just looked up the current retail price . I think I paid around 145 -150 bucks plus a low cost full field scope . Then thangs are getting spensive today

[b4uqzme]

^^^ yep, times they are a changin'. I think there are some decent in-lines that are pretty inexpensive if you look. Amazing what synthetic stocks, etc. can do for price.

[Ron AZ]

I shoot both a traditional mz, a Renegade like Bawanna, and an in-line. But no way I still use traditional black powder with all the mess even in the Renegade. You can use 777 or one of the other modern muzzleloading powder in the traditional style gun and save your self a lot of pain, mess, and bad smell.

Anecdotally, I believe my Renegade is a little more accurate with the 777 also. I use the loose powder not the pellets in my Renegade, since it is .54 caliber.

[Bawanna]

I shoot both a traditional mz, a Renegade like Bawanna, and an in-line. But no way I still use traditional black powder with all the mess even in the Renegade. You can use 777 or one of the other modern muzzleloading powder in the traditional style gun and save your self a lot of pain, mess, and bad smell.

Anecdotally, I believe my Renegade is a little more accurate with the 777 also. I use the loose powder not the pellets in my Renegade, since it is .54 caliber.

I got 4 cans of that 777 that I've never shot, always used black powder. I'll have to try it. If it wasn't such a pain to ship I'd send you some, got way more than I'll ever use.

[b4uqzme]

Thanks Ron, I am planning on using 777 or other BP substitute. Been doing some used gun research and I may get lucky. There's a .54 cal Renegade with a box of accessories for sale nearby for less than that new Lyman alone. Seems Renegades can be bought for around $250 but they are not real common or close. I've said before...I rarely come home with the exact gun I set out for. ;)

[kenemoore]

I use Ballistol to clean my pistols and stuff, according to the can it works well on black powder guns, mix with water and clean her up. Cannot confirm or deny that it works. Might be worth investigating.

[b4uqzme]

I also heard of guys using Ballistol to lube their patches...I love that stuff! But I'll probably use the hot water method. Water is free. Then follow up with a Ballistol patch for storage.

[b4uqzme]

OK I ordered the Lyman. Keep your powder dry!

[Bawanna]

Iffen it don't come with a racoon skin cap (word police grr) you best start looking for one of those too.

Image is everything.

[b4uqzme]

That will have to wait. I'm still learnin' how to twirl my sixgun.

[b4uqzme]

You mean you couldn't post " ****"? :rolleyes:

[muggsy]

I choose a T/C Hawken in .45 cal. Less recoil, flatter shootin. Took three Ohio whitetail with this gun with one at a measured 100 yards. Built it from a kit.

[b4uqzme]

I don't think you can buy the assembled TCs any longer. They are not on the website that I could see. I think you can still get kits. And there are used guns on the market...mostly TC, Traditions or Pedersoli. I suspect this won't be my last muzzleloader. A .45cal "target" model would be fun. I'm looking forward to this. There's a whole process involved that appeals to me. Can't wait for my first whiff of powder. :)

[b4uqzme]

BTW. Good shootin' there muggsy.

[Bawanna]

I've been hankering for a smaller caliber to play with too, like a 36 or something, squirrel rifle I guess.

Should probably break out my 54 and play, make sure it's a viable hankering.

At the end of a day hunting of course the only way to empty a front stuffer is to shoot it, we'd usually set up a pop can at 100 yards give or take, I never killed nothing with mine but I don't recall ever missing that pop can.

I hunted with the guy that I bought my Renegade from one time muzzle loading and many many times archery and when we went to unload he propped his borrowed front stuffer across the hood of his International travel all. Not good! It was red until the shot and then black in a kind of wedge pattern after that. I'd propped up on the corner so the muzzle wasn't over the hood. Lesson learned that day.

[b4uqzme]

What a great old truck...powder burns and all. Brings back memories.

So I'm watching the UPS tracker. It reminds me of watching the Santa tracker on Christmas Eve when I was a kid. Same emotion. Something good is coming. Looks like Christmas might be next Weds. this year. :)

[Ron AZ]

Does the Lyman have the double "set" trigger like the TC's? Those are great and really contribute to accuracy. I hunted with mine and never missed or failed to make a clean kill with my Renegade, even on some tough shots.

On the flip side, my TC Omega in-line had a horrible trigger. I could carefully compensate and get reasonable accuracy at the range. But I was only 50/50 hitting the game I was shooting at. Sent back to TC and came back ok and I have not missed with it the few opportunities since. But still not a great trigger.

With the modern mz powders, found a good brushing followed by a couple of wet patches got out the residue. No need for the boiling soapy water like with blackpowder. Then to aid drying some alcohol (try to find the 92% not the 70% alcohol) patches, dry patches followed by lube right away took care of it well.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ Thanks. No the Lyman has a single trigger. Some say that's an advantage for hunting. It should be fine for my purposes. Good cleaning tips. Thanks again,

[josp]

Pa hunter here. By far my favorite season. Must use flintlock in the true muzzleloader season after Christmas (there is a week long doe only inline season in Oct for wimps)
Use a Lyman deer stalker 50 cal. I'll admit that a percussion cap rifle is probably better for a beginner, but there is a great feeling of achievement stalking and bagging a buck with a front stuffer ignited by a spark from a piece of rock. Kind of makes using a real rifle feel like dating your sister......

[b4uqzme]

Well said! :yo:

[Bill K]

Josp, nice PA deer!

Here is what I got (crossbow) off my brothers property near Burnt Cabins in Fulton County, PA. It is typical of the bucks we see in our area.

Wife and I are looking to sell here in CT and move out to PA to be closer to family. Will likely get a flintlock once settled in. Of all the shooting I do the most fun and relaxing is shooting my side lock smoke pole.

12373

[b4uqzme]

^^^ Thanks Bill. That's what I'm after. While everyone else is dumping ammo, I hope to be calmly stuffing my pole...:D. Nice deer! I got a little piece of property up near Warren PA. Just some land right now but it would be great to do something with it some day. Right now I'm just paying taxes...

[Bill K]

^^^ Thanks Bill. That's what I'm after. While everyone else is dumping ammo, I hope to be calmly stuffing my pole...:D. Nice deer! I got a little piece of property up near Warren PA. Just some land right now but it would be great to do something with it some day. Right now I'm just paying taxes...

Hope to move to the Mansfield area of PA which is about 2.5 hours East of Warren on Rt. 6. Looked at property 10-15 years ago in the area but it never came to fruition. To bad, gas exploration $ and royalties would have paid for much of the investment.

[Ron AZ]

Josp, nice PA deer!

Here is what I got (crossbow) off my brothers property near Burnt Cabins in Fulton County, PA. It is typical of the bucks we see in our area.



Bill,
I'm in AZ now but Burnt Cabins is only about 30 min from where I grew up near Mercersburg over in the next county Franklin Co. Used to go up by Cowans Gap and cut through the mountains to Burnt Cabins on my way back and forth to Penn State. I still return to PA for the traditional after Thanksgiving rifle hunt every year with a friend and family.

[Ron AZ]

^^^ Thanks. No the Lyman has a single trigger. Some say that's an advantage for hunting.

b4, Agree it is an advantage if it is a good single trigger. If it is not … a disadvantage. But knowing Lyman's reputation you are probably in good shape unless the lawyers designed the trigger. I am really done with guns with bad triggers anymore. Life is to short to put up with them.

[b4uqzme]

b4, Agree it is an advantage if it is a good single trigger. If it is not … a disadvantage. But knowing Lyman's reputation you are probably in good shape unless the lawyers designed the trigger. I am really done with guns with bad triggers anymore. Life is to short to put up with them.

It's supposed to be pretty good but we'll see. Thanks.

[muggsy]

Muzzle loaders are fun. Black powder the reason that I have no eyebrows, but that another story for another day. Switched to Pyrodex shortly after that incident. Quit smoking not long after. Cigarettes, not my eyebrows. :D

[b4uqzme]

^^^ Mrs b4 and I used to smoke too...after sex. Now we just do it slower. :cool:

[b4uqzme]

...So I'm watching the UPS tracker. It reminds me of watching the Santa tracker on Christmas Eve when I was a kid. Same emotion. Something good is coming. Looks like Christmas might be next Weds. this year. :)

Fitting. It seems it's coming via horseback...horses get tired ya know :)



Indianapolis, IN, United States
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United States
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Order Processed: Ready for UPS

[Bawanna]

A watched package never boils, er, a boiled package never gets delivered, ...............................

[muggsy]

^^^ Thanks Bill. That's what I'm after. While everyone else is dumping ammo, I hope to be calmly stuffing my pole...:D. Nice deer! I got a little piece of property up near Warren PA. Just some land right now but it would be great to do something with it some day. Right now I'm just paying taxes...

My dad and I used to hunt at a place called Hearts Content straight up the mountain from Sheffield, Pa. near the town of Cherry Grove a little East of Warren on 6N. Took five nice Pa bucks from there.

[b4uqzme]

I'm a bit south of Warren but I've been to Hearts Content many moons ago. Good country.

[b4uqzme]

A watched package never boils, er, a boiled package never gets delivered, ...............................

Yep. What he said. ;)

[b4uqzme]

Well it arrived Weds as scheduled. I didn't get a chance to do anything more than open the box and check it over. First impression: It's a very nicely made rifle for $400. Not a lot of extra dressing but the stuff that is there is well made and fits together nicely. Most of the Turkish walnut I've seen is very straight grain but this one has a few swirls in there that are a nice bonus. I've yet to make it down to the LGS to buy balls and powder and stuff so it might be awhile before it gets it's first shots. But it looks good standing in the corner for now. Thanks!

[Bill K]

How about some pictures?

Thanks...

[b4uqzme]

lock, stock and barrel

[b4uqzme]

plus 2

[Bill K]

Very nice! I like the simple and uncluttered look. Plenty room in the trigger guard for shooting with gloves on.

Is the front sight a simple brass blade or bead?

[RRP]

A very nice looking fair-weather gun, indeed. Congratulations.

[tv_racin_fan]

For you guys maligning the inlines. Might interest you to know that one of the earliest if not the earliest cap lock rifle was an inline. The design was such to protect the caps which were paper at that time in the development. Somewhere between 1812 and 1820 I believe.

Colonel sir, if'n you lookin to find a squirrel rifle that aint cost an arm and a laig the Traditions Crocket is heard to be a fine little rifle. May well be the only one in their lineup, tho my son currently has a Flintlocked Traditions Deerhunter that never gave me a lick o trouble.

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Crockett-Rifle

I prefer true black powder as it can be cleaned up with water with a drop or two of soap in it and then the rifle rubbed down with some lard or crisco or olive oil for preservation/rust prevention. The trick is to clean the thing as soon after shootin as is practicable and for sure the same day.

[Bawanna]

That looks really good, hadn't run across that one before. A friend just suggested a half stock, I been set on a full stock but the half stock is looking better and better to me all the time.

That one looks like it would do the job and be lots of fun. I kind of been looking at kits too. Track of the Wolf has some nice ones where you can kind of pick and choose what furniture and stuff you want. Adds up really fast though, fantasized about a few of them.

[b4uqzme]

Very nice! I like the simple and uncluttered look. Plenty room in the trigger guard for shooting with gloves on.

Is the front sight a simple brass blade or bead?

^^^^ bingo. Thanks.
Fyi. Just a metal blade. I might paint it.

[tv_racin_fan]

I prefer the half stocked rifles myself sir. Just pull out the wedge and pull the barrel off for cleaning. Tho a full stocked Rifle that uses wedges would be just fine.

[b4uqzme]

So I assembled my little muzzle-loader kit full of balls, patches, tools and stuff. I took the Lyman out for its first shots. Cleaned the barrel. Carefully measured 50 grains of Pyrodex. Tamped in a patch and ball. Paced off 25 yards. Capped it. Set my sights. Squeezed the trigger. And...WOW! Is that ever fun. My first shot was only 1/2 inch low of bullseye!

I cleaned the barrel and took another shot. Flyer. Wasn't really sure what was up with that. So I decided to take the next shot without cleaning. 1 inch low. I'll have to experiment more and figure out what cleaning between shots does for accuracy.

Decided to move back to 40 yards and took another half dozen shots and kept them all on the 9 inch target. Actual spread was a little less than 7 inches. had 4 shots total in the 3 inch center.

I can't wait to get this out to a longer range and start developing an accuracy load.

These things are a lot of fun. If you've never tried it, I encourage you to do so. The process is what's fun. I probably spent an hour and a half out there and only shot about 10 shots. And had a great time!

[Flyinghawk]

I am a traditional rifle shooter Caplock & flintlock both work well and I am not to keen on these inlines