Green Tip Ammo

[Harrylee]

Was watching Cam&Co today and heard that the ATF is doing some real behind the door dealings. So here is the link and lets hear what you guys think. First it's the green tip what is next? Maybe lead free ammo that you can shoot thru your hand gun may fall in that category

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761

[Redstate]

Interesting thing is that not only is the green tip m855 all sold out, so is all the m193. Panic sets in again.

[Pistolpacker1911]

I get a laugh everytime I think about how much people paid for their ARs when they were going to be "banned". If any of these panic buyers studied ballistics, they would know there are non steel rounds that penetrate better than 855, the 77g for instance. So let the fools pay $1.00 a round if it makes them feel good inside. I'll still be shooting for $.35 a round.

[JohnR]

I think some of the panic buying is just to defy authority. Like when you tell teenagers not to drink.

[muggsy]

If they can ban a bullet because it can defeat body armor then all high powered rifle bullets are in jeopardy. A long gun and five minutes with a hacksaw equals a handgun. Chip, chip, chip.

[berettabone]

What's next...........................these?????????????? ?

[Pistolpacker1911]

I found this little.bit of info.

The M855 was designed decades ago when The US Military had M-16's with 1/12
twist barrels and they needed a bullet which could penetrate light body armour
better than the 55 grain FMJ, and because of the 1/12 twist in the barrels of all
the military M-16's [at that time] they couldn't go with a heavier bullet so they
added a little steel to a 62 grain bullet [The M855] because a 1/12 twist M-16
could fire that weight of a bullet accurately and the added steel enhanced
penetration.

Now with the advent of 75 and 77 grain OTM bullets which do 2900+/- fps they
get just as good [or better] penetration with the 1/9, 1/8 & 1/7 twist barrels
being used now. So if you have a AR-15 with a 1/9, 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrel
you don't really need The M855 to get comparable [or better] penetration,
though the 75 and 77 grain bullets do much better with a 1/8 and 1/7
twist barrel.

[downtownv]

Obama wants to be not only the best Gun salesman, but the best Ammo salesman too!

[muggsy]

Here's more ammo that defeats body armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6h44Pu4sM&list=TLx8E1n1Xrp7M

[ScottM]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/02/daniel-zimmerman/atf-accepting-comment-m855-ammo-ban-march-15/

Read and act before March 15!

[marcinstl]

in my ongoing, never ending search for the perfect pistol, I looked at the FN 5-7 and noticed there are rounds for that gun that are not available to the general public due to penetration ability. on further research into this subject I came across Winchesters "Black Talon" ammo which was removed from sale to the public. here's an interesting article-- http://www.guns.com/2011/10/26/the-myth-of-the-cop-killer-bullet/.
I'm not a rifle shooter and don't know anything about green tipped 5.56, or what they're good for (hunting the Wyoming Jackalope?), I'm going to stick with the old 12ga. and a variety of ammo from birdshot to buckshot to slugs to top secret home loads.
(also, please remember that any idiot, even a felon can buy a percussion revolver without permit or paperwork, load it with .44 cal. balls and powder and go on a spree. 140gr. .44 ball, shot from a 9" Walker is going 1395 fps. for 604 ft./lbs. of energy. all mailorder, UPS to your front door. ATF approved.)

[ScottM]

Great points marcinstl. There are also plenty if ATF-exempt air rifles impressive muzzle velocities that can be equally deadly. I've seen YouTube videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugyO7dcF1n8) of them taking down feral hogs at 50 yards, and last I checked, I weight less than a feral hog. Barely. For now. No promises.

Sure, they probably won't penetrate much beyond the lightest of body armor, but if we're going to be nonsensical about which guns and ammo to ban, then you can imagine how those could fall in scope of a ban after some psychotic freak vents his disease in a gun-free-zone.

I have several anti-gun friends and I love them to death, but it frustrates them when you talk through ballistic equivalencies and carry the concepts of a ban through to the logical conclusions. Basically if you ban pistol-carried "armor-piercing ammo", you'll ban many hunting calibers, and pretty much everything if you extend that to rifle-carried ones. Then you'll discover that the vast majority of gun crimes don't involve rifle calibers at all, so you'd have to follow the stats and ban high velocity stuff like .357 mag/sig, .44 mag, especially FMJ and anything with sharp edges. Then you'll realize that most gun crimes still aren't covered because criminals don't usually use expensive revolvers, so that means banning the most penetrative of common pistol rounds, and already they're deep, deep, deep in 2nd Amendment territory. But suppose you get that done somehow - that still doesn't address what I guarantee would be an increasing occurrence of knife-related crimes, and while there is no 2A protection of concealed knife carry, it would be impossible to ban anything that looks like it would be used in a kitchen. And still, at the bottom of that rabbit hole, you're left with the inability for a law-abiding citizen to protect themselves at all in public, or using anything except a knife or baseball bat at home. That is, until baseball bats start showing up in domestic crimes...

Like I said, it frustrates them because what seems like a logical course of action to reduce violent crime, turns out to be a rabbit hole. They usually retreat to the same old stats about one country or another having far lower gun crime stats than the U.S. or it being more likely to be shot in a home that owns guns and one without.

[downtownv]

hmmmm... They never asked me.
White House Says “Everyone” Agrees That Banning M855 is a Good IdeaMARCH 7 2015
BY NRA-ILA


Share This Post


http://cdn5.gunssavelives.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/press_wh-640x334.jpg



On Monday, White House press secretary Josh Earnest said that President Obama supports the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’–which is to say, President Obama’s–ongoing attempt to ban M855-type AR-15 ammunition. Obama “has long believed that there are some common sense steps that we can take,” Earnest said. “[E]veryone should agree that if there are armor-piercing bullets available that can fit into easily concealed weapons, that it puts our law enforcement [officers] at considerably more risk.”
For starters, notice Earnest’s words “everyone” and “common sense.” As investigative journalist Sharyl Attkisson recently explained (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU), the use of such words is an “astroturfing” technique designed “to give the impression that there’s widespread support for or against an agenda when there’s not.”
In reality, Obama’s attempt to ban the second most popular ammunition for the most popular rifle in America is being widely and vigorously opposed. More than half the members of Congress have signed House of Representatives Judiciary Committee Chairman Bob Goodlatte’s (R-Va.) letter to BATFE director R. Todd Jones (https://dcpr00gbauvhc.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1507312/ap-ammo-ltr-to-director-jones.pdf) opposing the ban. Strong opposition is also expected with a Senate opposition letter (https://dcpr00gbauvhc.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1507329/sen-grassley-letter-to-atf-director-todd-jones.pdf) being spearheaded by Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Chuck Grassley. Large numbers of gun owners are contacting Congress (https://www.nraila.org/take-action/write-your-lawmakers/ask-your-lawmakers-sign-the-letter-to-the-batfe/), urging opposition to the ban. Gun owners are also contacting BATFE (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150218/your-action-urgently-needed-to-prevent-batfe-from-banning-common-rifle-ammunition) to convey their reasons for opposing the ban. (To assist gun owners, NRA-ILA provided initial information (file:///C:%5C%5CUsers%5C%5CCZealan%5C%5CAppData%5C%5CLocal %5C%5CMicrosoft%5C%5CWindows%5C%5CTemporary%20Inte rnet%20Files%5C%5CContent.Outlook%5C%5C13K0IRQT%5C %5Con%20February%2013th) about the ban on February 13th, and additional details (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150218/your-action-urgently-needed-to-prevent-batfe-from-banning-common-rifle-ammunition) on February 18th.)
Furthermore, many in the law enforcement community oppose the ban. WND.com reports (http://www.wnd.com/2015/03/zero-cops-killed-by-obamas-bad-ammo/) that the law enforcement officers it interviewed disagreed with the administration’s characterization of M855 as a special threat to men and women in blue. Asked if any law enforcement officers had been killed or seriously wounded by M855 fired from a handgun, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, Sheriff David Clarke, Jr., said, “Not in my jurisdiction. We’re doing a search nationwide . . . but so far we haven’t found anything.” Similarly, Sgt. Dana Pierce, of the Cobb County Police Department, near Atlanta, said he’s never heard of any officer being shot at, or even threatened, by a criminal wielding an AR-15 handgun.


Then there’s the White House’s implication that AR-15-type handguns are “easily concealed weapons.” Naturally, the same idea is being pushed by the BATFE. In its Framework (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_proj ectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purpos es.pdf) explaining the ban, BATFE says AR-15-type handguns pose a “significant threat” to law enforcement officers, implying that they are “small, concealable firearms.” Not surprisingly, one of Michael Bloomberg’s Everytown operatives, Mark Glaze, is “on message” with the administration, recently telling Fox News, “what you’re worried about is handguns that are cheap, small, and easy to conceal, if they can carry bullets that can cut through your Kevlar vest.” Maybe the White House meant “Everytown” when it said that “Everyone” supports the ban.
The “cheap-small-and-concealable” talking point must be another example of the Obama administration and its supporters thinking “the American people are too stupid” to sort fact from anti-gun fiction. In reality, an AR-15-type handgun is very expensive and, at about six pounds in weight and two feet in length, it’s a contender for the “Least Small, Least Easy-to-Conceal Handgun” on the planet.
Gun control supporters have a warped sense of the difference between large and small, of course. For them, a magazine that can hold over 10 rounds is too “large,” so they must think that any handgun that isn’t mounted on a tripod, bolted to a flat-bed trailer, is too “small.”
However, they would be making a mistake to believe that law enforcement officers are going to line up in lock-step with their theories about AR-15-type handguns. The Springfield, Missouri, News-Leader reports that 17-year veteran police officer Brent Ball said that such a handgun would be difficult for a criminal to conceal because of its size. “As a police officer, I’m not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It’s the small gun in a guy’s hand you can’t see that kills you.”
As they say in show business, let’s cut to the chase. For the 38 years that the FBI has reported the caliber of handguns used to kill law enforcement officers, not only has no law enforcement officer been killed with M855 fired from a handgun, none has been killed with a .223 caliber handgun at all.
Furthermore, virtually any center-fire rifle bullet will penetrate a soft vest. This is why the 1986 “armor piercing ammunition (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921)” law (see paragraph (a)(17)), which the BATFE is mischaracterizing in order to justify its ban, was designed to restrict armor-piercing handgun ammunition, but to exempt rifle ammunition.
As we have previously noted, BATFE’s effort to ban M855 has potential ramifications for ammunition generally. As ammunition technology evolves, and as anti-gun and anti-hunting organizations advance their campaigns to get a ban on lead bullets, BATFE’s abuse of its regulatory authority could jeopardize the availability of ammunition generally.
Stop the Obama-BATFE attack on M855. Do it for the right to keep and bear AR-15s and, with an eye to the future, for the right to keep and bear arms in its entirety.
BATFE is still accepting comments on the proposed ban and will consider all comments received on or before March 16, 2015. Please be sure to submit your respectful comments in opposition to the ban.
Again, comments will only be considered by BATFE if received by March 16, 2015. They may be submitted in any of three ways:
Via email at APAComments@atf.gov (http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/white-house-says-everyone-agrees-that-banning-m855-is-a-good-idea/APAComments@atf.gov) (follow the instructions at the link for submitting comments).
Via fax at (202) 648-9741.
Via mail to Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/white-house-says-everyone-agrees-that-banning-m855-is-a-good-idea/?utm_source=Guns+Save+Lives+Daily+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=da63b89d68-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_eaeaa815c4-da63b89d68-65814029

[JohnR]

We are non-persons, we don't exist in Liberalland except as subhuman rejects of their grand evolutionary eugenic dreams.

Hitler used the same line, everyone agrees the Jews are the problem.

[marcinstl]

if logic had anything to do with politics, ballistics and gun crimes, the first thing to ban would be the evil .22lr, the most popular killer bullet. if you couldn't just buy .22lr at every gas station or Walmart, bet you the gun crimes would go way down. if the liberal, anti-gun people were smart they'd do something about this.
(how's that for Sunday humor?)

[JohnR]

Yah, you actually can't get .22LR anywhere! Must be all the gangs and thugs in line at Walmart at 6am. :D

[ScottM]

Remember when cheap guns were the target? "Saturday Night Specials?" It was even statistically supported by the crime stats (of small, cheap guns being used in crime more than more expensive, larger-caliber guns), but the attempt to ban then ran into racial and economic disparities and by the 2A prime directive itself.

[ScottM]

We are non-persons, we don't exist in Liberalland except as subhuman rejects of their grand evolutionary eugenic dreams.

Hitler used the same line, everyone agrees the Jews are the problem.

You never fail to please JohnR [emoji1]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[marcinstl]

waah! here we go, back in the good old days...
"Hinckley's gun was given to the ATF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosive s) the day after the shooting to trace its origin. In just sixteen minutes agents found that the gun had been purchased at Rocky's Pawn Shop in Dallas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas), Texas.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-33) It had been loaded with six "Devastator"-brand cartridges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_%28firearm%29) which contained small aluminum and lead azide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_azide) explosive charges designed to explode on contact; the bullet that hit Brady was the only one that exploded. On April 2, after learning that the others could explode at any time, volunteer doctors wearing bulletproof vests removed the bullet from Delahanty's neck.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-taubman19810403-29)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-wilber2011-12):223"

looks like you can still get Devastator ammo -- http://www.firequest.com/devistator-ammo.html on sale. 6 for $15. popular calibers. (probably a favorite with southern neo-nazi's?)

[ltxi]

Don't own any 5.56/.223 firearms so I don't really care.

[Exiledviking]

Don't own any 5.56/.223 firearms so I don't really care.
I could say the same of .40S&W. However, I'm very much against them INCREMENTALLY limiting my choices.

This year it's M855, what ammo will they go after next year...?!?!?

[ScottM]

This year it's M855, what ammo will they go after next year...?!?!?

Potentially anything that'll defeat level 1 Kevlar could be considered armor piercing. That means anything stronger than a 22LR or .380 round:

https://www.officerstore.com/images/nijspec2.htm

[ltxi]

I could say the same of .40S&W. However, I'm very much against them INCREMENTALLY limiting my choices.

This year it's M855, what ammo will they go after next year...?!?!?

Well, that didn't take long. Sarcasm, my friend....and welcome to KahrTalk. :)

[Exiledviking]

Well, that didn't take long. Sarcasm, my friend....and welcome to KahrTalk. :)
Ah. Sorry!!! I didn't realize you were being sarcastic. Must be the fog from getting up at 4AM this morning.
Thank you for the welcome. I'm glad to have found this forum. Lots of good info.

[marcinstl]

so if the deer or the neighbors dog aren't wearing kevlar, somebody(Winchester, Federal) will still be selling a serviceable round in that caliber? geez, this reminds me, I gotta go to the hardware store and pick up a bag of glazier points and load up some more 12ga. squirrel shot.

[ScottM]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/

[muggsy]

To paraphrase Ray Orbison, "It's over, it's over, it's over, it's Ooooover"

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/03/10/atf-shelves-controversial-bullet-ban-proposal/

[ScottM]

Jinx! [emoji16]. My hope is that BATFE attorneys determined this wouldn't stand up against court challenges. My bet is that they'll try it again.

[getsome]

Bottom line: "The Justice Department will make a final decision when all of the comments are reviewed"....Holder doesn't give a crap about what anybodys comments are or what is legal and has said that he believes his greatest failure while in office was not doing more about gun control and assault weapons which is rich when you remember "Fast and Furious"....Holder has a hardon about this issue and I think we will see it or something similar before that rat slinks back under a rock somewhere and is history which can't happen soon enough IMHO....

[knkali]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgyzzzai-Ow

[muggsy]

I guess you didn't hear me. It's over. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how.

[ScottM]

I guess you didn't hear me. It's over. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how.

Can I hope you're right but stay suspicious?

[deadeye]

Just heard through the "grapevine" that the bill was shelved indefinitely pending further study as they were being flooded with irate folks. This means they will sneak it through late on a Friday night of a holiday weekend attached to another bill that will be sure to pass. We'll find out about it on a following Monday. Don't snooze!!

[getsome]

President Alfred E. "What me worry" Obummer seems to have his Executive Action pen warmed up and ready to go so never say never on this one....

[Longitude Zero]

I guess you didn't hear me. It's over. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how.

Not for now it won't. The need to remain ever vigilant remains.

[ScottM]

Not for now it won't. The need to remain ever vigilant remains.

How in the heck did I end up agreeing with Longitude Zero? I want my money back!

[ScottM]

More reports:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/10/armor-piercing-ammo_n_6841694.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/10/how-angry-gun-owners-shouted-down-a-ban-on-armor-piercing-bullets/
"Last year, the ATF successfully banned (http://www.guns.com/2014/04/08/atf-deems-7n6-armor-piercing-non-importable/) Russian-made 7N6 bullets on the grounds they were armor-piercing. Some gun-rights groups objected, but that ruling stood.
"We didn't put it out to comment," Seward noted."

So now we know how the next one will come...

[ltxi]

How in the heck did I end up agreeing with Longitude Zero? I want my money back!

Excellent!! :hippie:

[marcinstl]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/10/armor-piercing-ammo_n_6841694.html
"The ATF had considered banning the ammunition, which is used in widely available AR-15 rifles, because it said the bullets could go through a police officer's body armor when fired from a handgun. Armor-piercing handgun bullets have been prohibited since 1986."
well, now it's perfectly clear, the ATF should ban them Glocks chambered in 5.56mm.

[muggsy]

Can I hope you're right but stay suspicious?
Sure, Scott. Always vigilant.

[muggsy]

Excellent!! :hippie:

I thought that you got double your money back for agreeing with LZ?

[ScottM]

I thought that you got double your money back for agreeing with LZ?

Yea but I donated it to the NRA/ILA, so, no soup for me. [emoji56]

[muggsy]

Good cause.

[Longitude Zero]

How in the heck did I end up agreeing with Longitude Zero? I want my money back!

Great minds generally think alike without agreeing on everything!

[Longitude Zero]

Yea but I donated it to the NRA/ILA, so, no soup for me. [emoji56]

Great cause.

[Armybrat]

We should push back with the proposal to eliminate the BATFE and roll their curtailed duties into the FBI.

Remember the old saw - "Alcohol, tobacco, & firearms should be a convenience store, not a federal agency".