no licence to conceal carry? thoughts/opinions welcome

[pwilson]

They are trying to pass a bill in my home state (WV) which would not require someone to obtain a concealed carry permit to carry concealed..

just wanted to get all your opinion and thoughts on the matter..

link!
http://www.wvva.com/story/28413926/2015/03/12/wv-lawmakers-ok-bill-to-not-require-concealed-carry-permit

[CJB]

I don't need a license to exercise any constitutional right, except for carrying a firearm what a pity

[yqtszhj]

it's good to have one if you are traveling to another state. If you dont leave the state I guess it doesn't matter.

[muggsy]

It's all about the money. Criminals carry without a permit and it's the first charge plea bargained away in court. Why should any one need a permit to exercise a constitutional right. Our rights are supposed to be unalienable.

[Ken L]

^^ exactly. Rarely do I see "felon in possession" or "concealed carry without a license" or other firearms related charges on published arrests. My feeling is that we need to enforce the laws that already exist.

[RRP]

pwilson, the downside risk is that WV will lose its reciprocity agreements and w/o a licensing structure, will not be able to cultivate new reciprocity agreements.

My state has licensing, but without any training requirement or background check. It's basically a tax. Few states will reciprocate with us. It's probably safe to say that no state is willing to enter into reciprocity with another state whose licensing requirements are less stringent than their own. I imagine that w/o licensing, the only states that would play ball with you are other states which don't require licensing. Those are growing in number, however.

[TucsonMTB]

They are trying to pass a bill in my home state (WV) which would not require someone to obtain a concealed carry permit to carry concealed..

just wanted to get all your opinion and thoughts on the matter..

link!
http://www.wvva.com/story/28413926/2015/03/12/wv-lawmakers-ok-bill-to-not-require-concealed-carry-permit
Here in Arizona, our similar law has worked very well for several years. Usually, the NRA works with the state legislators to craft a bill that will not produce too many unintended side effects. Given the intellects of even well meaning politicians, this is probably a good thing.

Not needing a permit to carry concealed is great, especially if you happen to be absent minded and occasionally head out into the desert on your mountain bike . . . armed, but without your wallet. That would be me. :o

Yes, in the past, I could just flip up my jersey to expose the 1911 on my waistband because open carry has never required a permit here. But, now I can continue to look friendly even when my aging memory allows me to forget my wallet.

A lot of safety instructors who were offering courses when the permit was required are still doing well because many people still get permits. Now, the biggest convenience of the CCW permit is not having to wait (or pay) for background checks at your friendly local FFL when buying a firearm from an out of state seller on GunBroker or a distant dealer like Bud's Gun Shop.

In Arizona, a CCW permit also removes any concerns if you are dining in a fancy restaurant where drinks are served while you are carrying but not drinking. Life is good.

Oh, and an Arizona CCW is still honored by other states, pretty much as before, in part because we do require instruction to qualify for the permit. For people who travel, the now optional permit is probably almost a necessity.

[xsailer]

My concern for a person CC'n with no consequent training is ME! and maybe MINE! or BYSTANDERS! that happen to be in the area if he/she starts shooting for some reason. My minimum class training (3) has made a very definite impression on me of CC.

[b4uqzme]

I don't need a license to carry concealed. I just need a lic to do it legally. :)

I think training is good with or without a license. But too many are too lazy...or don't get around to it...

[TheTman]

It wouldn't hurt to require a class on CC, and the legalities and perils of CC'ing. Plus make sure everyone has a working knowledge of a pistol. And knows Cooper's safety rules at least.

[b4uqzme]

^^ I just always have a problem with that word "require". A lot of the things we are so steadfast against started with well-meaning people determining that we need to make something mandatory. I take serious issue with anyone who doesn't get training but it still should be their choice. I'm really in favor of states' removing CCW lic requirements...in the spirit of individual freedom and our Constitution. But as muggsy and others put it a long time ago: with freedom comes great responsibility.

[Longitude Zero]

But as muggsy and others put it a long time ago: with freedom comes great responsibility.

Without a modicum of required training I can see righteous use of force being drawn out by the DA and possible folks being prosecuted that might not have been before.

[ScottM]

I grew up in WV. It's a gun friendly state. People still feed their families by hunting. But several hunters die every year because so much land is privately owned and unofficially shared, so it's easy for inexperienced hunters to go out without training.

So, while I'm sympathetic to the 2A argument of not requiring training to carry, I lost a couple of classmates to hunting accidents, and I know much I've learned in my 10 hours of post CC training. I feel better as a citizen knowing carriers are trained.

[RRP]

Do you remember when people did the right thing, because it was the right thing to do?

I long for a place that does not require licensing or training, but people seek training voluntarily because it's the right thing to do. It's a fantasy, I know. Too bad we put government in a position of having to legislate common sense.

[ScottM]

Do you remember when people did the right thing, because it was the right thing to do?

I long for a place that does not require licensing or training, but people seek training voluntarily because it's the right thing to do. It's a fantasy, I know. Too bad we put government in a position of having to legislate common sense.

Agreed. Besides, firearm training is freaking fun as hell! I'm at distinct risk for addiction here. I may need an intervention by summer's end.

[muggsy]

Agreed. Besides, firearm training is freaking fun as hell! I'm at distinct risk for addiction here. I may need an intervention by summer's end.

You can get firearms training without having to obtain a permit to exercise a right.

[Buzzard45]

Firearms training should not be mandated, it should be highly recommended for everyone. You may not agree, but thats OK, you have that right too.

[Bawanna]

I long for a day when common sense returns and folks will know that they need training and will seek it and those that don't need it cause they have fully functioning brains and were brought up properly by parents with fully functioning brains don't have too.
My only issue with training is the puffed up resumes and dominant alpha male attitudes of most instructors that probably got certificates online from an equally questionable resume puffed up dominatn alpha male.

[RRP]

It takes a strong, confident personality to be a sheepdog. I suspect you just described most of the guys you work with.

[xsailer]

I wonder. If there were no laws requiring the registration and a driving test to operate a safe car would you feel safe driving across town or walking down the street?

[RRP]

Do you feel safe now?

[xsailer]

A hellofa lot safer than the other way.

[ScottM]

A hellofa lot safer than the other way.

There is that. Riding a motorcycle underscores that pretty quickly.

[ltxi]

Off into pariah land I be goin' now....

Back in the day, like when we all usta take our .22's to school, store them in our lockers, and then go out shooting in the woods and fields I would have thought a license to carry with a training prerequisite rather bizarre. T'wer any license to be required at all.

I could write couple of chronological paragraphs wrt "over the years" but will just skip to today.

I'm now against constitutional carry, at least in most areas. Concealed carry should licensed. And issue of a permit should be contingent upon some demonstration of understanding of and competence with a firearm. Our world has changed, there are too many freaks, and too many "duh" incompetents out there now.

The DL requirement comparison is a good one.

[marcinstl]

ltxi,
I went to the CCW class and passed. the video presentation from a lawyer was good, gave some ballpark numbers on what it costs to shoot somebody and an idea of the jail time, if you do it wrong.
then we went to the range and shot .22's. looking around that room at some of the goat ropers, doorknobs, women with 2"nails that were going to get their permit to, I was scared. they were all going to end up at Cabela's buying a .380 and a box of ammo--yikes! if Mo. required a CCW holder to shoot a decent score on an IDPA course, take a gun handling and safety class, I'd be for that. I'd also be for a nationwide, systematic search and seizure of illegal guns. start on the S. side of Chgo., continue thru the N. side of STL and keep going to the back woods trailer parks of Arkansas. sure would be a pile of guns, huh? do I want to be the only one with a gun and everybody else can carry a soup spoon-- oh heck yeah!

[89grand]

We can, and I do, carry concealed without a permit in Arizona. I have zero issues with that policy.

[yqtszhj]

I long for a day when common sense returns and folks will know that they need training and will seek it and those that don't need it cause they have fully functioning brains and were brought up properly by parents with fully functioning brains don't have too.
My only issue with training is the puffed up resumes and dominant alpha male attitudes of most instructors that probably got certificates online from an equally questionable resume puffed up dominatn alpha male.

You nailed it. Well said.

[xsailer]

You nailed it. Well said.

Yes he did nail it and I also wished we could go back to that time............Ain't gonna happen. That has as much a chance to happen as Hopalong Cassidy shooting a Good Guy.

[xsailer]

There is that. Riding a motorcycle underscores that pretty quickly.

I rode from the seventies to the Cell Phone invention. Although it wasn't dangerous enough, it really became too damn dangerous then.

[Barth]

We can, and I do, carry concealed without a permit in Arizona. I have zero issues with that policy.

+1 sort of - LOL!
I live in Arizona now too.
But all I had to do is inform Florida of my new AZ address.
And poof, my Florida resident permit becomes a Florida non resident permit.
Only a couple of the ~35 states that honor Florida reciprocity demand you are a resident.
Including Arizona.

Life is good...

[tv_racin_fan]

Off into pariah land I be goin' now....

Back in the day, like when we all usta take our .22's to school, store them in our lockers, and then go out shooting in the woods and fields I would have thought a license to carry with a training prerequisite rather bizarre. T'wer any license to be required at all.

I could write couple of chronological paragraphs wrt "over the years" but will just skip to today.

I'm now against constitutional carry, at least in most areas. Concealed carry should licensed. And issue of a permit should be contingent upon some demonstration of understanding of and competence with a firearm. Our world has changed, there are too many freaks, and too many "duh" incompetents out there now.

The DL requirement comparison is a good one.

How many of those supposedly trained and competent drives have accidents every day in the US? How many drivers are on the road right this minute who have no permit and no training but drive anyway?

The very idea that we give up freedom and liberty and allow the govt to mandate a permit and training to defend ourselves is not in keeping with the principles that this nation was founded upon. Doing so will result in the need of training and a permit to exercise those other rights within that Bill of Rights.

Papers, please.

[Gene Hackman]

It's still good to have one. Especially if you travel. I live in Colorado and our permits are good in a whole bunch of states. Plus if you ever have to tell police you have a gun (I don't offer that information) they will take you more seriously and not think you're just a thug with a gun.

[RRP]

I live in Colorado and our permits are good in a whole bunch of states. Plus if you ever have to tell police you have a gun (I don't offer that information) they will take you more seriously and not think you're just a thug with a gun.

Be careful with that. In CO, there is no duty to "inform". However, in many of the states where you have reciprocity, there is indeed a duty to inform.

[berettabone]

You should not only have to show competence shooting your firearm, but be able to assemble/disassemble/clean your firearm. You wouldn't believe how many shooters I have seen(mostly women) who don't know the first thing about their firearm, and they have their husband clean it. You shoot it, you clean it.

[marcinstl]

I probably shoot to much, I'm at the range maybe twice a week or more. if I had the energy and a video camera I could have a youtube channel, just range videos. funny, scarey, sad, hot brass in the cleavage, shotgun punishment, slide and hammer bites, even some good shooters. I have concluded that guns are not for everybody. even in war, up to 20% of casualties can be from "friendly fire", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents you see stories like the cop and bad guy shoot out in the elevator, 11 shots fired and nobody was hit--- WTF!? here's a knee slapper-- it's 3am and Joe6Pack (with wife and kids) wakes up to noise of somebody breaking in. half asleep, all he has to do is put the right code into the digital gun safe on the night stand, get the gun out and load it, then he's ready.
I fault the ever greedy gun and ammo companies for over marketing and over selling product to under educated buyers.
I live in Mo. and have a CCW permit. no reciprocity in Illinois. that's ok, I don't go there, it's way to dangerous.

[rickbsgu]

The problem I have with concealed carry permit is this: How do you enforce it?

If the weapon is concealed, then no one knows it's on the person (concealed is concealed - for the case of the argument, I'm assuming full concealment is successful.) If it becomes unconcealed, it's either an accident, or it had to be used.

If an accident, the permit offers no protection. In fact, it becomes a liability. Whether the carrier has it or not, they're faced with prosecution. If lucky, it's a misdemeanor. If in the wrong state, it can be a full on felony, with or without a permit (at least that seems to be changing.) In any case, they now will lose otherwise productive time dragging through the legal process.

So, what good does the permitting process accomplish in terms of day to day enforcement? Seems like a ruse, to me, and just a 'feel good' measure to appease the anti's/another way to appear to exert control over something for which there is no real control/get lists of people and drive more bureaucracy/extract funds from people. (If it were inherently enforceable, criminals wouldn't be able to conceal - which they obviously do on a regular basis.)



If it had to be used (and all the criteria for self defense and justifiable shooting is met), it puts the judicial system in the uncomfortable position of prosecuting someone who was just defending themselves for not having the state's blessing for doing so. Think about Boernie Getz, New York Subway shooting of 1984. Convicted of carrying only, all other charges were dropped. So, ultimately, he was convicted of not obtaining the state's blessing to defend himself - a blessing that is almost impossible to get, and for which he would have been victimized had he not chosen to ignore it. The absurdity wasn't lost on the public - it sparked a national firestorm of commentary and analysis.

And here's the crux: the state couldn't have determined beforehand whether he had done that, and couldn't detect it. Back to enforceability. Concealed is concealed, with or without a permit.

Arizona woke up to the reality. I'd like to see other states do it, too.

[max it]

hi ya Scott,
agreed. I am preparing to take the course more for the extra training
than for the legal right to carry concealed.
bravo, Max

[ScottM]

hi ya Scott,
agreed. I am preparing to take the course more for the extra training
than for the legal right to carry concealed.
bravo, Max

Hope you have as much as I'm having! Being able to practice full draws, conduct movement drills and play with different scenarios under seasoned instruction is frankly confidence-inspiring.

[pwilson]

as a part time bank teller and part time stay at home dad... i wish the courses were cheaper.. lol

maybe ill see if my friend could give me a course on one of my days off.. oh wait.. i dont have those.. lol

[ltxi]

As clarification and/or fwiw....I didn't say/mean new training should be required, tho it could especially legal info be useful. What I today advocate is demonstration of competence with a firearm...military, LE, whatever background be quite sufficient to satisfy that in my mind. Colorado requires recurring, every 10 year training classes. I don't see that as necessary. The two states I have, non-resident, permits in that require demonstration of competence...Maine and Virginia...are good with my professional background in perpetuity.

[xsailer]

If there was IF there was ANY other way than a Gov agency to be a legitimate verifying source of a CC person having been shown the basics of CC then I would be for it. I hate to see the Gov get their abusive hands in the pie then I'm all for it. What would be acceptable then: NRA, shooting organizations, Clubs???

The above post suggestions of accepting Vererans, etc. is good.

[Barth]

As previously stated -
Constitutional carry has worked well in Arizona and other states for years.

Reciprocity with other states is an issue - hence I still have my Florida permit.
But I'm for constitutional carry.

[ScottM]

as a part time bank teller and part time stay at home dad... i wish the courses were cheaper.. lol

maybe ill see if my friend could give me a course on one of my days off.. oh wait.. i dont have those.. lol

Great point. That is indeed the down side - cost and availability. And actually that's an excellent argument against training as a requirement. In fact, it would be a liberal argument if liberals liked guns because low-income citizens are disadvantaged whenever flat fees are involved. Like, $100 is no biggie if you're making above median income, but when you're juggling and pedaling and just making ends meet, that $100 just isn't there. As a result, lower economic classes would be discriminated against, as would the elderly and anyone unable to get to a class due to distance or schedule or disability.

The other aspect is how much that person's safety (and family and public) is compromised by not having any training. Back in the colonial days, there might not be a single person without firearm exposure growing up, and that isn't the case today.

Is peer pressure enough today to pride/shame carriers to seek training on their own as a best practice?

[pwilson]

that $100 just isn't there.

$100 for the class... and then another $100 for the permit... thats almost an entire paycheck for the average part time employee

[ScottM]

$100 for the class... and then another $100 for the permit... thats almost an entire paycheck for the average part time employee

Right. And yet the public had no problem making me shell out $400 for my child's driver training and ID fees, and another $1500 per year in insurance, to mitigate the public safety risks of a young driver.

[marcinstl]

" my child's"
now surely somebody explained how that happens, where they come from? or was it a negligent discharge? (start slapping your knee and laugh hard anywhere here).
I was just reading that the average kid costs about $250K from age 0 to 18, college not included. did they tell you that? on the plus side, we live in this socialist paradise with public education and some healthcare, so that might defray the costs of breeding. (about 70% of my property taxes go to supporting an unaccredited and failing school district, that kind of sours me.)
part of the reason I conceal carry is to defend myself from the offspring of ne'er-do-wells. the above mentioned public school isn't even capable of producing students with an ability to speak conversational or business English. opps, feel a rant coming on, time to stop. good luck, have a nice day.

[ScottM]

" my child's"
now surely somebody explained how that happens, where they come from? or was it a negligent discharge? (start slapping your knee and laugh hard anywhere here).

LOL. I've heard scientists think they know where kids come from but I'm sticking with the stork theory, because scientists are fools and only produce results that affirm their own government funding gravy train.

[xsailer]

One of the things I didn't like about the legal CC process was the cost and the time I waited to getting my permit. I remember it was it was well over $200. $85 8 hr. class, $100 to Att. Gen., $33 approx. to Sheriff. At the time it was 90 days after taking two checks to the Sheriff dept that I received my CC approval which had to be taken the licence bureau where I paid that fee (approx. $16) to get my photo CC card/permit. Of course I didn't get the photo card then as it would be mailed to me. While waiting for it I was allowed to CC using the receipt of my application for the CC photo permit card.
The Class, Permit and related expenses nearly cost as much as my weapon.

[CCHGN]

I agree with Constitutional carry. Permit is the root word for permission, I don't need permission to keep and bear arms. However, I DO think all who carry should have to carry a card (much like a Driver's License) of training and practice, issued by trainers or gun shops, with mandatory ongoing training and practice and kept up to date. Exemption if ongoing competition shooting.

[CPTKILLER]

We should never have to beg for any Constitutional Right nor pay a fee for it period!

Texas is not in good shape with this with the RINOs and lethargic gun owners.

[Bawanna]

I have no issue with a card to carry showing you are legal and not a certified nut case although I don't see any way to tell if one is really a certified nut case. Doubt there will ever be a way, only the ones already caught and put in the rubber room are a sure thing. Everyone else just hasn't been caught yet.
The card should be cheap and fast to get. It doesn't take long to do a back ground check (I do them everyday) and it shouldn't be a money maker for the state and the feds.

I totally disagree with mandatory training or even a class to get the permit. Just like the nut cases, who's to say what a certified instructor should look like. Most I've encountered had to deflate their heads to get through a door and talked down to anybody that wasn't in the advanced class.
Not good for young new shooters and especially woman. Basic safety training of course should be available to those who desire or feel the need for it.

Don't know how one would show proof of regular training or practice or regular competition for that matter.

Most gun shops are class acts with good people but their thing is gun knowledge, not necessarily shooting and a few should be selling sewing machines not firearms. I remember one gun shop guy telling me not to even think about night sights on a Kahr, like this was gospel.
Turns out that was his personal opinion and for small guns I actually semi agree but still that's his opinion and really should only be shared as such.
One of the things I have against classes, they are teaching their style or method which seems to always be changing to the latest bestest method.
Again not a bad thing. Remember the old cup and saucer grip. That needed revamping for sure.

Of course in a perfect world they would do away with all the anti gun laws, buy em by mail with no FFL like the old days, no permits, course folks always tell me I was born a 100 years too late, maybe they's right.

[Bobshouse]

We should never have to beg for any Constitutional Right nor pay a fee for it period!

Texas is not in good shape with this with the RINOs and lethargic gun owners.

and with all the Californians relocating there, it's gonna get much, much worse.

[CCHGN]

We should never have to beg for any Constitutional Right nor pay a fee for it period!

Texas is not in good shape with this with the RINOs and lethargic gun owners.


Florida should already have it...but we don't. Doesn't Texas have OC?

[CCHGN]

I have no issue with a card to carry showing you are legal and not a certified nut case although I don't see any way to tell if one is really a certified nut case. Doubt there will ever be a way, only the ones already caught and put in the rubber room are a sure thing. Everyone else just hasn't been caught yet.

Florida just passed a comprehensive pkg (after the Cruz shooting): Raises the age to buy a gun to 21( being challenged); more resource officers in schools ( NO armed teachers); mandatory crisis teams to meet and come up with strategies to prevent school shootings; more Crisis counselors in schools; Enacted the "Red Flag" law- just like domestic violence, if someone is thought a threat, by credible sources, immediate intervention and guns temporarily confiscated and Baker acted and evaluated and treated; ALL LEO and Mental Health entities MUST report any mental health issues to NCIC immediately( they found that entities had been slow reporting, or not at all) 5 entities failed to stop Cruz: the school board; the local PD went to his home 13 times, no action; Mental heath officials saw him 3 times, no action; DCF( Dept of Children and Families(Florida's social services), was called on him twice, no action and finally, the FBI, was notified twice that he was a threat, NO ACTION.


I totally disagree with mandatory training or even a class to get the permit. Just like the nut cases, who's to say what a certified instructor should look like. Most I've encountered had to deflate their heads to get through a door and talked down to anybody that wasn't in the advanced class. Not good for young new shooters and especially woman. Basic safety training of course should be available to those who desire or feel the need for it.


Well, that's a big generalization, there many good trainers out there, ALL who have to be certified with the State. NRA trainers for example. Those so called "big heads" get called out very quickly.


Don't know how one would show proof of regular training or practice or regular competition for that matter.


I've been shooting IDPA and 3 Gun for almost 20 yrs and know that it is an International Organization, certified and acknowledged by States and the NRA and the USA and many Countries. Every meet is recorded with IDPA HQ. Btw, I can tell you, if you hope to compete and even get on the board, you HAVE to practice at home.


Most gun shops are class acts with good people but their thing is gun knowledge, not necessarily shooting and a few should be selling sewing machines not firearms. I remember one gun shop guy telling me not to even think about night sights on a Kahr, like this was gospel. Turns out that was his personal opinion and for small guns I actually semi agree but still that's his opinion and really should only be shared as such. One of the things I have against classes, they are teaching their style or method which seems to always be changing to the latest bestest method.

That's true, but we all have our own mind and can seek training with those that we agree with and pretty soon, the "nut jobs" won't have anyone to teach to. Btw, imo, the nite sights thing has merit. In reality, NONE of us should be trying to shoot someone in the dark IF it's so dark that you can;t see your sights, you should be getting away, to cover and out of danger. The reality is, if ever in a gun fight, you'll likely be so close, that sights will be moot anyway (many of the old shooters removed their sights , as they were more of a liability). I've been doing this for many decades ( I've been stabbed, cut and shot at twice, both times I was unarmed and yes, you CAN dodge bullets) and have found that 99.9% of confrontations are less than lethal. Better to carry Mace or a Taser. I have decided that I will use my gun when they grab ahold of me, then I'm gonna stick it into their chest, at an upward angle and shoot them 'til they fall.



Of course in a perfect world they would do away with all the anti gun laws, buy em by mail with no FFL like the old days, no permits, course folks always tell me I was born a 100 years too late, maybe they's right.
Yep same here, but alas, it'll never happen. If the last SCOTUS showed us anything, it was how many Americans agree with the Left. The Pendulum swings to and fro.

[berettabone]

We have had legal open carry in my state forever. You shouldn't have to pay to carry concealed, when you can open carry for free. But alas, you do. To earn that right, you should be able to prove that you can shoot, disassemble, and clean your firearm. To me, besides the state making a few bucks on a license, if you send someone to a class, and there is no type of qualification other than sitting there for a time period listening to the legal mumbo jumbo, without actually showing that you can handle your firearm safely, it's just a waste of time. My CCL course was 9 hrs. with a qualifying shoot. You had to score above a certain number to receive your license. If you muzzled someone, you were gone, no refund, accepted by all that were there. You didn't need to be able to hit a gnat at 50 yds., you shot from defensive distances, and I thought it was fair considering some people were shooting snubby revolvers. I have seen and continue to see people with CCL licenses who don't have a clue and shouldn't be allowed to carry a purse much less a firearm. To charge them a fee, and allow them to do this, is a danger to me. If they shoot themselves, no issue. They are not being realistic. These licensing places popped up everywhere, and every Tom, Dick and Harry became a certified instructor all of a sudden. To show films and discuss legal ramifications. My wife made sure, before she got a license, that she knew all of the above. How to shoot, how to clean, how to disassemble, how to be safe. I really don't want anyone around me, license or not, that cannot at least do these things. I wish that others would be more responsible, but they are not. They need to be forced to be able to do these things. Want a license, prove that you are worthy, and not just one more danger to society. The whole mental thing is a fine line. A very short jump from sane to not sane. I'm afraid that just using a short questionnaire would eliminate half of society, depending on your thoughts. The whole Cruz thing, they just dropped the ball. No one wanted to take responsibility to take firearms away from someone who clearly shouldn't have had them. The libtards of this world are so anti firearm, but yet they are more concerned about hurting someone's feelings by taking their firearms away. You can't have it both ways.

[CCHGN]

...The whole mental thing is a fine line. A very short jump from sane to not sane. I'm afraid that just using a short questionnaire would eliminate half of society, depending on your thoughts.
I took classes from the University of Maryland, Business Mgmt was my major, but Psychology was my minor, particularly Abnormal Psych. The truth is, the Psych community agrees, that a person who has potential to snap is VERY predictable, as it is a culmination of a lifetime of abuse, usually coupled with some mental disability. What that translates to is that the person is VERY noticeable as a "weirdo". Everyone who knows them, knows that something ain't right. It's the child who takes pleasure in mutilating small animals, the kid who is socially backward or retarded. The dark loner, who doesn't fit in, anywhere. From Columbine to Virginia Tech, to Cruz, they ALL protested on social medias and folks ignored it. They were able to go in and buy guns legally because the proper authorities, who KNEW they had problems, didn't report them to NCIC. So all that created a perfect storm that ends in tragedy. I call it dysfunction. In the Marines, we called it a malfunctioning unit. The problem has also been dysfunctional adults, not having the tools to deal with it. Schools just pass them along or suspend them, making them someone else's problem. Too many families want to think "they'll grow out of it". Most people look the other way and thank God it's not them or theirs. Officials, who should be dealing with are simply more concerned with putting their time in and want to just wash their hands of it. Well, these school shootings and mass shootings are forcing Society to take a good hard look at the problems. The Psych community knows the problem starts very young. IN Florida,observations and testing will start in grade school. The Crisis Counselors? They're being trained to look for the signs in problem students and being A LOT more pro-active in intervening. I'm so proud to be a Native Floridian. Our leaders jumped on the real problems, while Students protesting and demanding gun control and the Left financing and coaching them, all the way the D.C., ignoring the real problems. The left says they will never let a good tragedy go to waste.

[dustnchips]

I am all for permitting and the process should include responsibilities under the law and gun training to include marksmanship and safety.

[Barth]

I am all for permitting and the process should include responsibilities under the law and gun training to include marksmanship and safety.

Although Constitutional Carry sounds good.
I prefer CCW with required training and background checks.
We are the good guys and verifying that sounds good to me.
BTW - My picture CCW make for one hell of a second picture ID.
Has worked extremely well in financial institutions :cool:

[CCHGN]

Although Constitutional Carry sounds good.
I prefer CCW with required training and background checks.
We are the good guys and verifying that sounds good to me.
BTW - My picture CCW make for one hell of a second picture ID.
Has worked extremely well in financial institutions :cool:

Sure and you can buy a gun and walk out with it, but otoh, if the State decided to confiscate guns, they have a ready made list of gun owners, who they KNOW has guns and will go there 1st. Btw, you get a background check when you buy the gun. So what other freedoms are we prepared to give up for the sake of safety. What's the saying? Those that are willing to give up freedoms for the sake of safety, deserve neither. Here's my thing, no matter what kind of training they've had or not had, or whatever card they have or don't have, I really don't care, if I'm out and about and anyone does something stupid around me, like pull a gun or be careless with a gun, etc., I'm going to give them two options, right then: 1. hand me the gun, right now or 2. I'll take it off their bleeding or dead body and they have about 2 seconds to decide. IF they choose #1, I'll empty it and hand it back to them, reprimanding them for their stupidity and invite them to get far away from me. If they do NOT choose #1, IDK, they all of a sudden pulled a gun on me and it's self defense. Other than that, life will go on as usual. Btw, what "required training" are you talking about? 4 hrs of class and then go out back and shoot a .22? My DW took a CCL class last week and they shot simunitions, indoors and each took 4 shots. I wouldn't call that anything. Weapon manipulation is a fraction of the responsibility of a CCW. In my house, we carry all day, every day, everywhere and have dry fire practice every day( except Sunday), mandatory (or else, whom ever misses 2 days in a row, their guns get locked up and they may not carry, until they agree to get with the program or decide to not carry at all). We have a range on the property and practice live fire 3 times a week- shooting while moving, running to and shooting from cover, tac reloads, multiple targets, malfunctions, etc. Btw, I let my CCL expire 15 yrs ago. Concealed means concealed. Same as raising children. Alot of folks think that public schools are supposed to give their kids an education. I say no way, their REAL education is at home- life lessons. We raised 3 kids that way, they now have their own families. YMMV

[b4uqzme]

This discussion mirrors the gun ownership argument: either it's constitutional or not. The 2A says that our rights cannot be infringed. That implies for any reason. It's up to the individual to act responsibly. Violators should be punished. But only after they abuse their freedoms.

A very wise man once told me (he owned car dealerships) that the best value was either the least expensive variant of a model or the most loaded up. Everything in between is a compromise. The same is true with politics. Either you want freedom or your want government control. Everything in between means that someone has to decide where to draw the line. Sounds like that is what we are discussing here: where to draw the line. Who gets to decide how much of our freedoms are an acceptable sacrifice?

[berettabone]

Sure and you can buy a gun and walk out with it, but otoh, if the State decided to confiscate guns, they have a ready made list of gun owners, who they KNOW has guns and will go there 1st. Btw, you get a background check when you buy the gun. So what other freedoms are we prepared to give up for the sake of safety. What's the saying? Those that are willing to give up freedoms for the sake of safety, deserve neither. Here's my thing, no matter what kind of training they've had or not had, or whatever card they have or don't have, I really don't care, if I'm out and about and anyone does something stupid around me, like pull a gun or be careless with a gun, etc., I'm going to give them two options, right then: 1. hand me the gun, right now or 2. I'll take it off their bleeding or dead body and they have about 2 seconds to decide. IF they choose #1, I'll empty it and hand it back to them, reprimanding them for their stupidity and invite them to get far away from me. If they do NOT choose #1, IDK, they all of a sudden pulled a gun on me and it's self defense. Other than that, life will go on as usual. Btw, what "required training" are you talking about? 4 hrs of class and then go out back and shoot a .22? My DW took a CCL class last week and they shot simunitions, indoors and each took 4 shots. I wouldn't call that anything. Weapon manipulation is a fraction of the responsibility of a CCW. In my house, we carry all day, every day, everywhere and have dry fire practice every day( except Sunday), mandatory (or else, whom ever misses 2 days in a row, their guns get locked up and they may not carry, until they agree to get with the program or decide to not carry at all). We have a range on the property and practice live fire 3 times a week- shooting while moving, running to and shooting from cover, tac reloads, multiple targets, malfunctions, etc. Btw, I let my CCL expire 15 yrs ago. Concealed means concealed. Same as raising children. Alot of folks think that public schools are supposed to give their kids an education. I say no way, their REAL education is at home- life lessons. We raised 3 kids that way, they now have their own families. YMMV Most people don't do what you do. They don't train, they don't qualify shoot, they just carry. You might or might not be surprised at how many people carry a firearm that they have never shot. Your 2 options are what get people shot. No one is going to hand you their loaded firearm. Take it off their bleeding body? Really?

[Bawanna]

Or have property they can shoot on. That would help immensely. Sure beats a hours drive to an indoor range where a big headed range officer will jump down your throat if you pull the gun out of it's holster too quickly. Or in some instances where a holster at all. Must be in a bag.

[deadear dan]

Mixed feelings. This should be a right to citizens who are not felons or mentally disturbed, however when I read of a hysterical woman grabbing her pistol from her purse, running and shooting after shoplifters I have to come to the conclusion that some training is in order. One should know the law and the responsibility of gun ownership, otherwise it threatens the rights of the 99.9% of CCW carriers who live and play by the rules.

[CCHGN]

This discussion mirrors the gun ownership argument: either it's constitutional or not. The 2A says that our rights cannot be infringed. That implies for any reason. It's up to the individual to act responsibly. Violators should be punished. But only after they abuse their freedoms.

A very wise man once told me (he owned car dealerships) that the best value was either the least expensive variant of a model or the most loaded up. Everything in between is a compromise. The same is true with politics. Either you want freedom or your want government control. Everything in between means that someone has to decide where to draw the line. Sounds like that is what we are discussing here: where to draw the line. Who gets to decide how much of our freedoms are an acceptable sacrifice?


Well I'm not sure the car dealership has anything to do with this. Luckily we have the best system in the World and Human History. Who decides? That's easy- let the Constitution decide. What does it say? The Constitution was designed to reflect the sentiments of the current society, while at the same time guaranteeing several unalienable rights. When the Constitution was ratified, women couldn't vote or own land, etc and folks could own slaves, that was American Society at that time. All that changed, as Society changed. At one time, Society said that alcohol should be banned, but hen realized the error of that idea. That also made folks realize another thing: Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide? How far can Govt go? The answers are in the Constitution. Women couldn't vote, they took to the streets. One thing the Constitution does is allows "We the People" to address grievances and injustices, but there is a set protocol- a significant number of citizens have to agree that something is wrong. A petition is the way. They get enough signatures and the Govt HAS to address the grievance and so a law gets passed and things change. We'd realized that there ARE limits to our rights, but there IS a line. By now, MOST of the lines have been established. We can't yell fire in a crowded theater, but we still have freedom of speech and assembly and protest, etc. We can't own Nukes and Fighter Jets, but we can still keep and bear arms. The issue here is, the 2A says the right to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed", so THAT is the line. So what does "infringe" mean? The act of limiting, restricting, curbing encroaching on, eroding , diminishing, impairing, etc. SO, ANY law that does that, is wrong. So, the law that says you can NOT carry ( bear arms) without govt permission, is wrong. THAT is infringement.

[CCHGN]

Most people don't do what you do. They don't train, they don't qualify shoot, they just carry. You might or might not be surprised at how many people carry a firearm that they have never shot. Your 2 options are what get people shot. No one is going to hand you their loaded firearm. Take it off their bleeding body? Really?

Well I just don't believe that that many folks will go to the trouble to decide to carry a gun, go to a gun shop, fill out the paper work, have a background check, buy a gun and ammo and a holster and change their clothes and life style, etc to carry and not shoot. Not at LEAST go to a range and shoot. I think you'd be surprised how many DO get training. I've been shooting IDPA for over 15 yrs and see ALL kinds of folks shooting: old folks,,men and women, ALL ages, A LOT of women, all sizes, all backgrounds, all races, all professions, etc.. Folks you'd see on the street and NEVER guess that not only are they carrying, but are very proficient. Hmmm, so you don't like my 2 rules. Let me ask you, why do you carry? At what point are you going to shoot someone? Do you have some set ideas? What do they have to do before you'll shoot them? What? Shoot other folks? Shoot at you? Wave the gun around, hit someone with it? What? So if a person pulls a gun next to you, you won't do anything? Why not? Why wait for them to shoot you? OR are you saying that you'll just shoot them dead, no questions asked? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they had a brain fart and very little training ( like you claim) and just don't know any better, that's not something to die over. So, say you DO shoot them, are you going to just let their pistol stay in their hand, or lay there next to them? Why? Maybe they could still shoot you. IDK, we definitely have different views on reality. YMMV

[CCHGN]

Or have property they can shoot on. That would help immensely. Sure beats a hours drive to an indoor range where a big headed range officer will jump down your throat if you pull the gun out of it's holster too quickly. Or in some instances where a holster at all. Must be in a bag.

LOL all the more reason to get involved in competition shooting, where you get to do all that stuff....lol When I first started, we lived in town and had a small yard.The IDPA is set up to mimic real life scenarios and the stages are set up that way, so that you have to negotiate different obstacles that you would out there. From concealment, shooting guns that you carry. IPSC and USPSA is purely run and gun- shooting as many rounds as you can, as fast as you can, with guns all tricked out with bells and whistles, over sized mags and optics, etc....

[berettabone]

Well I just don't believe that that many folks will go to the trouble to decide to carry a gun, go to a gun shop, fill out the paper work, have a background check, buy a gun and ammo and a holster and change their clothes and life style, etc to carry and not shoot. Not at LEAST go to a range and shoot. I think you'd be surprised how many DO get training. I've been shooting IDPA for over 15 yrs and see ALL kinds of folks shooting: old folks,,men and women, ALL ages, A LOT of women, all sizes, all backgrounds, all races, all professions, etc.. Folks you'd see on the street and NEVER guess that not only are they carrying, but are very proficient. Hmmm, so you don't like my 2 rules. Let me ask you, why do you carry? At what point are you going to shoot someone? Do you have some set ideas? What do they have to do before you'll shoot them? What? Shoot other folks? Shoot at you? Wave the gun around, hit someone with it? What? So if a person pulls a gun next to you, you won't do anything? Why not? Why wait for them to shoot you? OR are you saying that you'll just shoot them dead, no questions asked? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they had a brain fart and very little training ( like you claim) and just don't know any better, that's not something to die over. So, say you DO shoot them, are you going to just let their pistol stay in their hand, or lay there next to them? Why? Maybe they could still shoot you. IDK, we definitely have different views on reality. YMMV You are correct, we do have different views on reality. First off, many, many people decide to carry a firearm. They DON"T go to a gun shop or fill out any paperwork. Heard of Armslist? Heard of gun shows? No paperwork here. No back round check here. Private sale here. Skip right to carry. If you think that everyone follows your purchase rules, you're living in dreamland. I can guarantee you that more people DO NOT get training than do. They also don't change their way of dress or their lifestyle. I used to belong to a shooting club. I quit because of IDPA. The range was never available to people who weren't interested in that type of shooting. They wanted to cater to the IDPA, and that's fine, but they lost a bunch of income by doing so. I have my own set of rules as far as safety and shooting. Every situation is different. If I am in a gun store/shop and someone muzzles me, you bet that I am going to say something immediately. If they are aiming a rifle around the store, and it comes in my direction, I am going to say something immediately, and I have. Cabela's, Dicks, Gander Mt. etc, great places to get muzzled. As far as shooting someone, every situation is different, and I will have to go with it if s#!t happens. If you get muzzled in a store, are you going to use your 2 rules? Go take it out of their hand, or shoot them in the store and take it off of their bleeding dead body? Crazy talk. Everyone understands IDPA, and the rest of the shooting groups. You would never get an argument from me, joining and shooting with any of these groups. I'm telling you that most folks don't train period. I've been shooting firearms for 45+ years, and have seen what people do, and what they don't do. If you think the majority of handgun owners are training, you're in la la land. We have open carry up here, have had it for ages. If you want to open carry, you can without paying a dime, or getting ANY training. Conceal carry without a license and you will go to jail. You would be breaking the law up here. Personally, I wouldn't associate with anyone who is breaking the law. Whether they think they're an expert or not.

[berettabone]

BTW, I have a place in the woods where I can shoot whenever I please, handguns or rifle. The people in the city do not, and do not want to pay $15-25 dollars an hour to rent a booth, so they don't train, they don't practice. Carry, squeeze, and pray. We have lots of gun shows and had Badger Guns. I used to watch the pink fingernails come in and purchase for their boyfriend, or buy for themselves by the hundreds. I guarantee that none of them EVER practiced or trained.

[Bawanna]

Just an FYI, here in Washington, there are no more private undocumented transfers. Armslist, Gunbroker, private sales all have to go through an FFL for a transfer. Stupid law and for the most part not enforced.
Our gun shows only members can purchase and those now also have to go through an FFL. There are tables with FFLs just for that purpose at the shows. Usually transfers are only 10 bucks at the show.

Really stupid law but we're so close to California with so many transplants I guess we're lucky it's not worse than it is.

[CCHGN]

You are correct, we do have different views on reality. First off, many, many people decide to carry a firearm. They DON"T go to a gun shop or fill out any paperwork. .

Listen, you keep making claims and we could do this all day long. You didn't answer any of my questions, so this is not a conversation. How about some REAL statistics or empirical data or something more scientific. OR, let it go. YOU can live up there in Sody land and I can be happy here in the Sunshine State. ALL I know is what I see here in Florida. I don't know how you can know ALL those "many, many" people who have NEVER handled a gun, never shot a gun, but all of a sudden, just buy a gun and carry it, with not one second of training. Btw, you're crossing the line over to personal attack, which shows your immaturity, so maybe you should take a break. Lastly, I have a Constitutional right not to follow an unContitutional law., so...YMMV

[Bawanna]

I choose "let it go".

Have a pleasant afternoon and a better tomorrow.