Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense Fails to Load in Magazine of P40

[Mits3kgt88]

Hey all, I'm pretty new the Kahr pistols and this forum. I just picked up a used Kahr P40 on monday and was shopping for ammunition today.

I had bought two boxes (D'oh!) of Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense, assuming that they would feed properly into the magazine. As you can see in the pics, the tips of the bullets don't clear the front of my mag and wouldn't allow me to load more than two, three if I'm lucky. I did have two get stuck while trying to see if they would fit.

They also didn't chamber well. I'm not saying that these rounds are no good, I just want to give everyone who owns a 40 cal Kahr that it may not fit in their mag. It sucks that they don't allow ammo returns but I understand why they don't. I'm not sure what year my P40 is or if there are different mags out there that are newer and possibly improved clearance wise(please enlighten if you can). All other bullets that I've loaded into the mag so far have fit well and chambered OK.

Thanks in advance for input!

Sorry about the quality.

Here's some pics:

[Bawanna]

Just looking at the pictures, the cartridges look right but they are too long. No idea how that could possibly happen with a big name manufacturer like Remington. There is no other Kahr magazine and I doubt any other 40 cal magazine that is going to accept those with the bullets set out so far.
If you have a caliper send us an overall cartridge length on those. We can look it up in a manual and see what it should be. I'd check other boxes of the same stuff anytime a store would let you and compare. They just aren't right.

[Bawanna]

If you know someone that reloads and has 40 dies they might be able to seat the bullets to the correct overall length and use them.
If it was me, I'd probably pull a bullet or two and see if the powder and everything looks ok. No way to tell exactly what they used for powder and they won't tell you I've tried before but I could get a general idea of the powder weight and see if it's close to normal.
Sure glad you didn't buy a case of the stuff.

[Mits3kgt88]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it's a tad too long, about a mm or so. I've compared it side by side with a Federal Champion bullet. I haven't tried any bullets from the other box that I have yet. Sorry, I don't have a caliper to precisely measure them. I knew I should've brought my mag with me to test the fit before I made the decision to buy. I had it in my car :(

[X2K]

I knew I should've brought my mag with me to test the fit before I made the decision to buy. I had it in my car :(

Not your fault. 40 S&W should be 40 S&W.

[joshh]

someone at the range had same problems with his 1911 & those rounds in a .45 cal. for what its worth, i am shooting the winchester pdx for defensve round in my glock22 (.40) and now in my pm9 too. i havent had any feed issues with them although they are too expensive to shoot often.

[Bawanna]

Not your fault. 40 S&W should be 40 S&W.

Exactly right. Nobody accepts returns on ammo which is probably a good thing, but in this case those are obviously wrong and the manufacturer should replace them via the dealer. Like X2K says 40 is 40.

[Mits3kgt88]

Oh ok, I'll give them a call and see if they'll take them back. I want to get the Speer Gold Dots or Hornaday Critical Defense but they were sold out of both in 40 cal. I know what you mean, I would assume that all 40 cal rounds are close to the same in size. Maybe their tolerances were off or something.

[Bawanna]

I'd explain to them what your situation is. If you go there bring your magazine. I would think they would be able to contact their supplier and get them replaced so the shop wouldn't be out anything. At the very least they can check the inventory they have and make sure they don't sell it, at least I wouldn't sell it. It's not the shops fault, unless one of their guys is shooting a 40 in those particular rounds, they likely don't even look at them, just the box. It's Remingtons goof. Ripping the head off the salesman at your local shop while perhaps very satisfying will not help.
I wouldn't even use the word close, exact is more applicable. The overall length is set to work in as many different guns and chambers as possible. Those you have aren't even close and will likely not run in anything.
I'm a big Gold Dot fan, haven't tried the Hornady so the jurys still out on that one.

[deadhead1971]

I would e-mail Remington with pictures and tell them your story. They may do something for you.

[Mits3kgt88]

Ok thanks. I called the store that I bought them from and they said that they'll be happy to help me out if I bring the recipt, bullets and my magazine showing them that they're not loading properly. I'll also send Remington an email to give them a heads up about the situation. I have yet to try any from the second box as I've been at work today but will be off in a couple of hours. Thanks again for your replies

[deadhead1971]

If the ammo box does not say "may not fit in some gun magazines," then Remington may send you some free ammo. They have something called Golden Saber. Or they may do nothing. It's worth a shot.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/golden-saber-hpj.aspx

I have not tried the saber ammo but it also looks long.

[Mits3kgt88]

I went back to the store tonight to return the bullets and see what the problem was. It turns out that the Remingtons that I bought are 180 grain which explains why they don't fit the magazine correctly. They recommended that I use either 155 or 165 grain bullets instead and sure enough they worked well when we tried loading them.

I exchanged the Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense for Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 in 165 grain. So far so good, they chamber well and fit in the magazine up to full capacity. I also picked up a Crimson Trace laser sight for it as well.

I couldn't be happier with their customer service, I'd recommend them to anyone in the area. They installed my laser sight for me for free :D

I'll let Remington know about the issue that I had with their 180 grain rounds not fitting in P40 mags. I should've mentioned the grain of the round in my first post though. Sorry.

[Mits3kgt88]

Should I still email Remington? The issue I had got resolve because it was too high of a grain to fit so it shouldn't be a problem with the bullets themselves.

[Bawanna]

The weight shouldn't make any difference. 40 cal is still 40 cal. I prefer the weight you have now over the 180 though for what tiny little bit that might be worth.
The shop knows what you had going so probably wouldn't be very beneficial to contact remington. Very good CS on the part of your gun shop. I've never heard of one exchanging ammunition.
180's should still work.

[at_liberty]

I went back to the store tonight to return the bullets and see what the problem was. It turns out that the Remingtons that I bought are 180 grain, which explains why they don't fit the magazine correctly. They recommended that I use either 155 or 165 grain bullets instead and sure enough they worked well when we tried loading them.

That's one I hadn't encountered before. Checking my reference books, I find that the higher bullet weight comes from sectional density, not size or shape. You still have to work with the same overall length (OAL) limits. It still comes down to measuring these problem cartridges with calipers and defining the overall length to make any sense of the problem and the supposed solution.

Coincidentally, I just pulled about a dozen or so bullets this morning from reloads that wouldn't chamber. The .40 SW is very particular about not being over 1.135 OAL, preferably not real close, more like 1.125 like my gauge. Staying back at about 1.123 +_.003 is working well. That is truncated cone FMJ range ammo, not bling hollow points.

My .40 SD ammo of choice is Hornady, but PDX1 or HST are good performers also. I am going to buy more PDX1 next time.

p.s. I care because I am sitting on a stash of 2000 of the 180 gr FMJ-TC bullets from Zero plus 650 completed rounds I bought of 180 gr with Berry's plated bullets.

[Mits3kgt88]

Oh ok, I didn't know that part about what makes the weight of bullets more. I was thinking length to increase the mass and that was what made them not fit properly.

[Bawanna]

Oh ok, I didn't know that part about what makes the weight of bullets more. I was thinking length to increase the mass and that was what made them not fit properly.

Alot of the weight is gained by density as At Liberty mentioned. Sometimes the bullet is actually longer but the length has to go into the case, hence slightly less powder capacity which in some cases don't matter and in some cases does. Any cartridge whatever caliber has to stay within the outer dimension specs. Most importantly OAL Over All Length.
In a perfect world an 40 S&W cartridge should fit and function in any 40 S&W chambered gun. Obviously we're far from a perfect world but at least in bullets we're much closer than other things.

[jlottmc]

My thoughts are that the gun shop saw that you were less experienced, and just didn't want to deal with you. They buffaloed you. As has been said SAAMI spec means that 40 is 40 all over town. The OAL is where you had problems, and OAL is rarely affected by weight, when it is, it is not factory loads. Usually, OAL and length issues are encountered by bench rest shooters while trying to fine tune their rifles. I would ask Remington about it anyway, they will want to know the batch number, if you still have it.

[Mits3kgt88]

Yeah, probably so, and I did tell them that I'm new to it. I didn't take a picture of the bottom of the bullets or box for the batch number. I forgot to do that before I returned them. Hopefully they tell Remington or someone who is also as unfortunate as I was does.

[jlottmc]

The 165's and 155's are good stuff too. I used to keep my 40 loaded with the same 155gr load that DHS uses. I now have 180 Winchester Rangers in it. As long as you feel ok to carry that load, then I wouldn't worry about it.

[8th SPS USAF]

We had the Remington trailer at a local store Sat and I reported

what was said here, and he had not hear about that. He said

he would contact the proper people next week. BS I do not

know, he might.

8th