Does your Kahr CM9 have a crappy trigger?

[Kahrmine]

The design of the Kahr trigger action is actually a really good piece of engineering.

That being said, I believe I've discovered something that sets the CM and PM series of pistols apart that Kahr isn't telling because it makes a pretty big difference.

They tout the CM pistol as a less refined version of the PM series, and that it is. They imply, however, most of the differences are merely outward appearance. That's not so.

If you look at Kahr's comparison sheet here, you will note something. The PM series has a machined slide stop, the CM series has an "metal-injection-molded" one:

http://www.kahr.com/PDF/CM9093.pdf

What does "metal-injection-molded" mean? It means it's quicker, easier, and cheaper to make. It doesn't require milling or machine-work, but a bunch can be "poured" out into a mold all in one shot.

Big deal, right? Wrong! One thing that happens when using injection molds for metal is there are always warts! Warts are the little nubs where the part had to be taken out of the mold from where the steel was poured.

I found out just how this affects the trigger of the CM9 because I've spent the last 4 days intimately sanding and buffing all the internals of my CM9 to get the trigger even close to what my PM40 was (which was a fine, fine shooting pistol).

What did I find inside the striker trigger action? WARTS!

There's good news and bad news with this. The good news is that Kahr, even with their injection molded parts, uses a very, very hard steel. I've seen newer Glock slides scrape from simple use, the metal they're using is so soft.

The Kahr, not so. But that brings us to the bad news, these hard warts will hinder your trigger action bigtime!

I know because the last few days as I've buffed every other part outside of the striker action to no avail.

It was only when I opened up the striker action and found not one, but two "injection-mold" warts where these important trigger parts were not properly sanded down and smoothed out. Additionally, it appears Kahr buffs what can be seen and reached easily on the CM series and leaves all the hard to reach parts unbuffed and rough.

After much sanding and buffing, the trigger is almost perfect. I will give it another go tomorrow sometime and when I get my Galloway lower weight trigger springs this pistol will likely shoot as beautiful as my PM40 did.

The moral of the story is, if you want a PM9 trigger, you have to pay for a PM9. If you want to do the work yourself, and I'm not so sure it's worth it, you can buy the CM9 and do the sanding and buffing yourself.

Don't let anyone tell you the PM and CM series are essentially the same. The CM9 comes complete with warts and all.

[Alfonse]

I'm a little confused. Are you saying roughness from gates on the slide stop were causing your trigger action to be rough? I don't see how that could be. Or, are you saying that there are other parts that are made with the MIM process that are the issue?

[Kahrmine]

Yes, there are parts inside the striker trigger action that are injection molded and have warts that hinder the action.

[DanTana]

Could you include some pictures, I'm curious to see what your talking about.

[Kahrmine]

I've sanded the two major warts down, but you can still kind of see them. At first, they were so high your fingernail would get caught on them. Now, they're flat, though you can still see their outline. I will take some pictures in a bit.

[Kahrmine]

The first one is faint because I sanded and buffed it down so much, but you can still see the circular impression left from the original wart. It's in the very center of the part. The second one needs no explanation, it was a big one! It looks like it could use some more buffing, actually, though my fingernail no longer catches on it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/colorsoundkid/IMG_1903_zpsvtef4l5b.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/colorsoundkid/IMG_1904_zpsnp08xnc6.jpg

[AnthonyC]

Thanks for bring such potential problems to my attention. So far my CM9 has been pretty good but I am planning on purchasing additional Kahr pistols in the future and its always good to know what to look for concerning potential problems.
Hope it shoots better for you.

[muggsy]

I used Freezone on my warts and now they are gone. Good for corns and calluses, too. There were no sprue marks on my CM9 and the trigger is just fine. We're not dealing with a match grade target pistol here. The CM9 is a down and dirty self-defense gun. Does anyone know if there is a cream, ointment or lotion for the anal retentive? :confused: :)

[Bawanna]

Thors hammer strikes again. Take your meds.

[xsailer]

How about some Preparation H mouthwash for a runny mouth?

[berettabone]

I dunno, are there some really sensitive people on this forum, or do I sense a bit of liberalism here??????????????????????????????:rolleyes:

[xsailer]

No Liberalism here for sure and yes I agree it was a bit anal about being anal.

[Kahrmine]

I just installed the Galloway lower power springs (striker spring, block spring) and the trigger is better than with the stock springs. The muzzle-dive when dry-firing is all but gone, I am more comfortable with carrying this pistol now.

Hopefully, I can get to the range today to see how it performs.

[Bawanna]

Is this a test? Here, hold my beer, nah, not gonna do it.

[xsailer]

Not a test Bawanna. Just a respectful observation of anothers observation.

[yqtszhj]

My kahr cm9 trigger was never crappy. I have polished all the internals on mine and while it is a little smoother it was never bad. I did the same thing on my cw45 and cm45.

[Bawanna]

Not a test Bawanna. Just a respectful observation of anothers observation.

You are fine and correct and not the target of my question. All is well. At least so so and mostly only cause it's Friday.

[muggsy]

Thors hammer strikes again. Take your meds.

You did see the smiley face didn't you?

[Bawanna]

I did but some probably may not understand the significance but no matter.

It's all fine and dandy. We don't need to start seeing other people or anything.

[Kahrmine]

I took it to the range and it's a good shooter now. Still not as good as my PM40 trigger was, but it's accurate now.

[muggsy]

Persistance pays off, Kahrmine. I hope that you weren't offended by my comment. The smiley face indicated that I was only kidding. The problem with the written word is that there isn't any voice inflection in the comment. It wasn't my intention to be hurtful.

[DJK11]

kahrmine, all four of my Premium Model Kahrs have the same warts as yours. They are just not as pronounced and don't cause a problem. It may be you have out of spec parts.

[Kahrmine]

Persistance pays off, Kahrmine. I hope that you weren't offended by my comment. The smiley face indicated that I was only kidding. The problem with the written word is that there isn't any voice inflection in the comment. It wasn't my intention to be hurtful.

Well, I'm a Christian so I totally forgive you. Also, know that I did not report you. I'm not easily offended.

[Kahrmine]

kahrmine, all four of my Premium Model Kahrs have the same warts as yours. They are just not as pronounced and don't cause a problem. It may be you have out of spec parts.

I see what you did there. Are you suggesting I bought the Crappy Model Kahr? :)

[Alfonse]

Now, that's funny!

On the topic of the thread, it looks like one of those parts is the striker block. Does anything slide on where you removed the gate? If it is what I'm thinking, I don't think anything rides on that surface. Something must ride on some of the places you worked, or it wouldn't have improved anything.

It would be sort of silly to put a gate (or sprue) on a sliding surface so my little mind had to wonder of those surfaces were actually part of the trigger action, or not. I assumed you polished up everything while you were in there, so that could have fixed it up.

[Kahrmine]

Yes, exactly where you see that big old wart is where the striker slides on. The striker and block meet right at that spot as that's where the striker slides along.

[muggsy]

Well, I'm a Christian so I totally forgive you. Also, know that I did not report you. I'm not easily offended.

Hell, Karhmine, I've been thrown out of better places than this and for a lot worse reasons. I wouldn't join most organizations that would have a guy like me as a member. Nothing offends me except for a newbie who bad mouths Kahr pistols or Kahr service. It ain't good manners. Question, yes. Condemn, no effin way. I'd defend you just as strongly.

[Bills1873]

I must be a lucky buckaroo! My CM45 trigger is better to me than my PM9 trigger, lets off a tad earlier and is just as smooth. I have had NO issues with these 2 little gems out of the box!

[CJB]

The moral of the story is, if you want a PM9 trigger, you have to pay for a PM9. If you want to do the work yourself, and I'm not so sure it's worth it, you can buy the CM9 and do the sanding and buffing yourself.

Don't let anyone tell you the PM and CM series are essentially the same. The CM9 comes complete with warts and all.


I strongly disagree. The bottom ends, frame and internals of the PM/CM are EXACTLY the same. EXACTLY. I have examined them, I have handled them, I have shot them, I have cleaned them. They are EXACTLY the same. EXACTLY.

Yet, one finds nicer and less nice examples of each "out there" in the gun shops across the land. Happens. Kahr does not "select" the better ones to fill the role of CM's at a lower price point.

One more thing - the MIM vs "machined" slide stop. You have to realize that the LEVERS of each are MIM. Yes. Examine the lever of any PM/P/TP and you'll see that it is. There are ridges and texturing that are nonly possible with the MIM process. Its the "pin" of the slide stop that is difference. The PM has a ground pin, and its added and held in place by a tiny blind pin. The CM has slide stop that is made all in one piece with its pin as one complete unit. No big deal really. Colt and others have used MIM parts for slide stops, safeties, other parts, for decades.

Sorry you needed to smooth things out, but the internals are EXACTLY the same. The striker, the cam, the trigger itself, the striker safety, the little metal striker spring seat, they're all the same. There are good ones, rough ones...

MIM parts are actually better than investment cast parts when the parts are small, and where a high degree of surface detail is needed. Usually, the molds are created to make any parting line creases easily finished off. And, MIM parts are sometimes further machined where high precision is needed - like the hole for the ground hard pin that Kahr uses for its P series slide stops. That hole is held to high precision and is (probably) reamed to size, and the cross pin hole is (probably) drlled after molding.

MIM bashing is really unfounded, as also is IC bashing. The latter was a BIG deal in various gun writing communities back in the days when Ruger pioneered the process for gun parts. And, they had to go back and "explain" the advantages of IC parts when Ruger was proven correct in their use of IC parts, which appreciably allowed both lower prices Ruger guns, and increased profits for Ruger the company.

The biggest obstacle to a smooth Kahr trigger has been two-fold for me. One is simple wear in of the cam to striker. The other is the leg of the cam that raises the striker safety, which can often be too long and present some problems. One requires some shooting to cure, the other needs to have Mr. Dremel or Mr. Fordham visit and apply a very slight tweak to the length of the cam's surface (easy, quick, painless).

And as a final note - my friend "D" (sorry can't mention the name) had a PM9 and hated the trigger. Just hated it. In fact, it was terrible. He sold it before I could convince him to let me buy him a beer while I fixed the trigger.... ended up getting a CM9 that is slick as can be! My recent PM9, that replaced the stolen J version... had a pediculous trigger too. Applied the correct fixes... smooth. And its slide stop lever was loose on the pin. Not just that pin spun in the hoie (most do that), but the pin would tilt all over the place. Cured with the help of my big 150lb vice holding the lever while I whacked the front of the lever with a 3lb hammer a few times. First I ever saw that tilted so bad. Happens I guess. Thats from the 5 Kahrs I've owned (or still own, counting the stolen one).

[CJB]

Sorry folks, I'm calling BS on this.

First - both strikers handy to me measured .3285 inches. The spacers on each (not where the sprue point) measured .327, and .3285 at the sprue. However, the channel meaures .341 on one slide, and .3415 on the other. Hard to meaure with small hole gauges, as its all feel, but I'm not off by more than half a thou. I know how to meaure, used Mitutoyo small hole gauges and a nice Mitutoyo micrometer.

That's leaving "wiggle room" of .0135 or damn neaer 1/64th inch. It does not interfere with the striker's withdrawal in the chanel during trigger movement.

Second - on the striker block, that portion of the block clears the striker by design, and there is a decent amount of clearance when you look at it in bright light. It does not even meet the wall edge of the channel, which is already clearing the striker, since the striker is smaller than the channel. Could be, as things turn out, the striker is rubbing on that side of the channel, but there's still clearance. You'd need a really really big sprue point to make some friction there.

I believe the OP has a mental disorder, known as imperfectionosis, whereby any imperfection that is perceivabe is paramount to Biblical plague, certainly the cause of all evil, and doer of no good.

Parts on both series are the same, finished the same. The sprue points are non interfering. Sorry. What you have spotted is a non issue.

[Alfonse]

Second - on the striker block, that portion of the block clears the striker by design, and there is a decent amount of clearance when you look at it in bright light. It does not even meet the wall edge of the channel, which is already clearing the striker, since the striker is smaller than the channel. Could be, as things turn out, the striker is rubbing on that side of the channel, but there's still clearance. You'd need a really really big sprue point to make some friction there.


This was my observation of the striker block as well. There is no contact at the point the OP is concerned about. I'm not sure what the first part is, maybe the striker spacer?

[CJB]

Yes its the spacer. Potentially a huge nub of a sprue could rub, but really, you'd have to damn near force the striker/spacer assembly into the channel to realize that. The ones I measured were "ok well finished" parts. Not perfect but 100 percent serviceable. If "perfect" they would have been a c.hair smaller than the striker. As it was, they were still well within any point of rubbing on things.

[Kahrmine]

You haven't handled my pistol, CJB, so you really have no basis for what you're suggesting. And I don't argue with people on the internet, though, so this will be my last comment.

My pistol now shoots properly after sanding and buffing those warts out, it's just that simple.

[CJB]

I ought to add..... I'm not out to besmurch the OP in any real way, except point that his observations are incorrect.

Why?

Because the Kahr design is an exceptionally elegant one. Elegant in the engineering design sense is one that utilizes few parts, well executed, gets the job done in an efficient and robust way, while also covering all contingencies. The Ruger Redhawk is another fairly elegant modern design.

There's something in me that say... wait... this is Kahr. Sure they f.up at times, but ya know, the design is a very sound one. The design is executed exceptionally well. I'd rather not have folks, casual readers, think something is true because somebody said it is. After I saw the post, I got thinking.... curiosity kicked in, so I had to take apart my PM45 and PM9 that I have here at the ready, and see just what was what. Supposition is corrected with measurement. And through measurement, clearer understanding, depth of detail, and correctness is ascertained. I'm sure the esteemed Hon. Muggsy would agree on that point too.

[CJB]

You haven't handled my pistol, CJB, so you really have no basis for what you're suggesting. And I don't argue with people on the internet, though, so this will be my last comment.

My pistol now shoots properly after sanding and buffing those warts out, it's just that simple.

True, I have not handled YOUR pistol, but your comment was that ALL of the CM's were inferior. You have miscategorized an entire line of product, and owe Kahr an apology for the same in my way of thinking.

The fact is, it would be a real stretch for the parts you showed to present problems.
The fact is, it would be a snowballs chance in hell to get two parts that both presented problems.
The fact is, the CM's are not different than the PM's in all regards, except for those noted here, and on Kahr's website.

Yes, bad examples happen.

"If you want a PM9 trigger you have to pay for a PM9" is a total and complete BS line from you, sir. I will not, never have, and never will, stand for someone coming here and bashing somethign that does not deserve bashing!

And one more thing, that I should have commented on before.... you once stated that changing a spring reduced muzzle dive, in a way that sort of implied that the pistol was at fault. No. Its your index finger thats at fault, sir. Please, please do not put blame where it is not warranted.

[berettabone]

Action hindering warts????????????? Muzzle dive???????????? I knew there was a reason I was shooting low left for a while, till I got used to things:)

[Bills1873]

CJB: I concur. I've been in machinery repair and failure analysis for over 35 years, so my training and experience demands that I notice subtle differences in machinery components. I have a CM45 and a PM9. I can dissassemble, flip the slide, look in the frame, and both guns are constructed and machined/finished the same, with the same components. Kahr would have no reason to misrepresent on that front.

[addictedhealer]

I have fully stripped my cw9 and haven't noticed anything like that., I also did a full polish job on all moving parts. http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/ThroopA/guns/7719933A-67F9-4768-A614-78384EB0C637_zpsux3aewpe.jpg (http://s800.photobucket.com/user/ThroopA/media/guns/7719933A-67F9-4768-A614-78384EB0C637_zpsux3aewpe.jpg.html)

What I have noticed though my buddy has same gun both of us have the 5lb striker spring installed. Mine has a much smoother trigger but his feels lighter. Roughly same round count. It annoys me because I like how light his is.

[jocko]

True, I have not handled YOUR pistol, but your comment was that ALL of the CM's were inferior. You have miscategorized an entire line of product, and owe Kahr an apology for the same in my way of thinking.

The fact is, it would be a real stretch for the parts you showed to present problems.
The fact is, it would be a snowballs chance in hell to get two parts that both presented problems.
The fact is, the CM's are not different than the PM's in all regards, except for those noted here, and on Kahr's website.

Yes, bad examples happen.

"If you want a PM9 trigger you have to pay for a PM9" is a total and complete BS line from you, sir. I will not, never have, and never will, stand for someone coming here and bashing somethign that does not deserve bashing!

And one more thing, that I should have commented on before.... you once stated that changing a spring reduced muzzle dive, in a way that sort of implied that the pistol was at fault. No. Its your index finger thats at fault, sir. Please, please do not put blame where it is not warranted.

Kahrmine, u must have had a reall sh!t kahr ouyt of the box which is very rare indeed. I have to agree with CJB on his points. The PM9 trigger is the same as the cm9 trigger, Parts come out of the same bin, kahr doesnt cut any corners on that stuff. Wehave seen trigger bars with a slight hitch when pulling it but when a poster comes here he is guided to that little springhy which rides uder that spring and to grease it and then shoot it and it wil smooth itself out, without total tear down. glad u got ur warts out of the way and the gun is doing asu say. the part that matter is if it works for u. I certainly never recommend any owner to completely tear down the trigger area of a kahr, fokk up the frame and ur outta luck. . But again some are moe gifted in doinbg these things, so each to his own. IMO utting beats shooting the gun and let the gun reak/smooth itself it. U can polish a wart I guess ...

[jocko]

I have fully stripped my cw9 and haven't noticed anything like that., I also did a full polish job on all moving parts. http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/ThroopA/guns/7719933A-67F9-4768-A614-78384EB0C637_zpsux3aewpe.jpg (http://s800.photobucket.com/user/ThroopA/media/guns/7719933A-67F9-4768-A614-78384EB0C637_zpsux3aewpe.jpg.html)

What I have noticed though my buddy has same gun both of us have the 5lb striker spring installed. Mine has a much smoother trigger but his feels lighter. Roughly same round count. It annoys me because I like how light his is.

try anuuter 5# striker, they are not all the same, They will very..

[jocko]

I have fully stripped my cw9 and haven't noticed anything like that., I also did a full polish job on all moving parts. http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/ThroopA/guns/7719933A-67F9-4768-A614-78384EB0C637_zpsux3aewpe.jpg (http://s800.photobucket.com/user/ThroopA/media/guns/7719933A-67F9-4768-A614-78384EB0C637_zpsux3aewpe.jpg.html)

What I have noticed though my buddy has same gun both of us have the 5lb striker spring installed. Mine has a much smoother trigger but his feels lighter. Roughly same round count. It annoys me because I like how light his is.

two things can make that feel different. 1 that 5# striker spring can very to, and the coil trigger sprng certainly can very. combination of both will give u a different feel over ur buddy's.

[CJB]

Like J'man sez... nothin' beats shootin' it, until it smooths out. Doesn't take much of it.

And.... for the OP and everyone... I used to be the "shoot cheap stuff to break it in" guy. No more. I want full house ammo, the hottest stuff I can find. I want to stress the pistol (or rifle, or shotgun) and the hot ammo is the way to do it. The springs will love you for it. The rough spots will love you for it. The lady who sold you the ammo will love you for it, but it won't do you no good with her. She's spoken for.

And thats that!~

[Kahrmine]

Ok, I will concede I may have gotten a lemon, but only because Jocko chimed in.

One thing was that when I talked about this trigger, everyone said that the way it felt and was shooting was "typical." Really, I bought the gun knowing how awesome my PM trigger was. I dry fired it a ton and gave it the Jocko treatment, but when I got to the range it was obviously not right.

It's shooting straight now, so I can't complain.

[b4uqzme]

...

It's shooting straight now, so I can't complain.

Works for me. Good thread.

[addictedhealer]

two things can make that feel different. 1 that 5# striker spring can very to, and the coil trigger sprng certainly can very. combination of both will give u a different feel over ur buddy's.

Thanks Jocko, you are correct. It was the trigger spring, mild adjustment now it's perfecto.

[Kahrmine]

Thanks Jocko, you are correct. It was the trigger spring, mild adjustment now it's perfecto.

What did you do to it?

[muggsy]

Once again old muggsy has been vindicated. And if you've ever been vindicated you know just how painful that can be. Thanks CJB. :)