CW380 defense rounds

[KahrArmed]

I'm just wondering what everybody uses successfully in their CW 380 as defensive rounds. I'm also on the fence about whether not to just use FMJ.

[cupcars]

I use DRT Terminal Shock 85gr. I've ran a magazine load thru my CW380 with no problems.

[DavidR]

Hornady Critical Defense usually does well in the CW380.

[zredwire]

I use the Underwood 90gr Xtreme Penetrator. I know some people have reported problems using Underwood or Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators but they work flawlessly in my gun. Because of the cost I can't shoot hundreds to test but I have run 40 of them through my CW380 without a hiccup.

[DavidR]

I use the Underwood 90gr Xtreme Penetrator. I know some people have reported problems using Underwood or Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators but they work flawlessly in my gun. Because of the cost I can't shoot hundreds to test but I have run 40 of them through my CW380 without a hiccup.

Lehigh XP fed fine in my CW380 but I had occasional failures to return to full battery. The Underwoods are loaded hotter than the Lehigh load so that makes for a potent 380!

[KahrArmed]

This guy does some great reviews of ammo with a P380:

http://youtu.be/HqBSz1oRiN0

http://youtu.be/BI8YGJVR9aE

http://youtu.be/pgkyazkngus

http://youtu.be/XQ_s-FQUsLw

He has a lot more videos, but I'm most concerned about the expansion after passing through clothing. Most if not all of the hollow points clog and over penetrate. Through the clear gel, they tend to get very poor penetration.

[Whaleman]

Buffalo Bore +P 90 grain JHP

[KahrArmed]

Buffalo Bore +P 90 grain JHP

http://youtu.be/ozOKJ-IjzTY

[KahrArmed]

Just noticed this is FMJ

[dsk]

Hornady Critical Defense. Most others I've tried occasionally get stuck on the feed ramp, especially PMC Starfire which flat out refused to work.

[KahrArmed]

Just watched this:

http://youtu.be/GNtPHYwcDts

I think I might go with the JHP HPR XTP., which is the same as the Hornady but without the plug.

[erichard]

To be clear, XTP and Critical Defense bullets are both Hornady products, but the tip is more different than just the plug. The XTP is a broader nose compared to the FTX tip (found on Critical Defense rounds):

380DPXvsHornadyCritDefense002JPG-1.jpg (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Ammunition/380DPXvsHornadyCritDefense002JPG-1.jpg)

Because of this, the FTX tip, found in Critical Defense, is probably more likely to feed well on the steep feed ramp of the CW380. The XTP is no doubt a good, reliable penetrator for the 380 guns in general, but since feeding is the achilles heel of the CW380, I might choose the Critical Defense over the XTP round, although some have said the XTP feeds fine. Can be expensive to shoot a 100 or 200 XTP to find out how reliable it is, and there's the rub. Almost everyone, if not everyone, says the Critical Defense round feeds reliably, so I think there's some good data to believe that's true for that round. Just be careful if hand cycling the Critical Defense round because I found that the red tip extrudes from the tip as the copper jacket tip is dented via repeated hand cycling. When the red tip protrudes from the tip, it can act as a brake on the feed ramp and get stuck. So use fresh (not hand cycled yet) Critical Defense rounds as carry ammo, IMMO.

All the above is based on bullet geometry and feed reliability, not so much the gel tests, as the Critical Defense round does not penetrate to FBI standards reliably. That said, police need to penetrate cars, windows, doors, etc. on occasion, so the need for penetration is greater than for home defense. Bottom line, reliability trumps penetration for carry rounds. That said, FMJ round nose may be the most reliable, but it over penetrates and leaves a small wound cavity diameter, so it is not as good as Critical Defense in my opinion.

Also, feeding for the rounds in the lower 4 spots of the magazine are more reliable, so some rounds may be close to 100% reliable there while not meeting the cut up higher in the mag, the Lehigh XP being a good example. I do carry the Lehigh XP in the lower 3 or 4 spots of the mag, Lehigh CF in the next two, and Hornady Critical Defense in the top two, which are the problematic locations in the mag for the CW380 (at least for me).




Just watched this:

http://youtu.be/GNtPHYwcDts

I think I might go with the JHP HPR XTP., which is the same as the Hornady but without the plug.

[dsk]

Two more things to contribute:

1. People tend to get all worked up about ammo being able to pass the FBI criteria for penetration. They call for a minimum of 12" of penetration into ballistic media after going through four layers of heavy denim. I'm not aware of too many people who wear jean jackets over denim shirts, and with that in mind remember that the FBI has been obsessed with ammo that will penetrate a tank ever since the ill-fated 1986 Miami shootout (which they blamed mostly on a single 9mm bullet that didn't penetrate far enough to reach the perp's heart). For most of us (i.e. civilians) having to shooting through barriers and penetrate heavy winter clothing is not a likely scenario.

2. Regarding reliability, I can vouch for the MagGuts 7+1 kits which not only offer an extra round but also improve feeding through the magazine. The springs are stronger and the follower is a better design than the OEM Kahr's, which helps alleviate the issue of the top rounds nose-diving into the feed ramp. Otherwise, sanding the OEM followers as has been discussed elsewhere does help with top-round feeding issues as well.

[timboy]

Thats odd,my CW380 ate up star fires without issue,I have run close to two boxes through it before I found the critical defense rounds that I wanted to use.

Hornady Critical Defense. Most others I've tried occasionally get stuck on the feed ramp, especially PMC Starfire which flat out refused to work.

[bobandmikako]

My CW380 runs Speer Gold Dots just fine. I'll stick with those.

[Ron AZ]

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/?s=.380+Ammo+Quest

I have shot 3 of the 4 loads recommended that use the Hornady XTP bullet (Fiocchi, HPR, & Precision One). I am currently using Precision One. Precision One also fed flawlessly for me with Magguts kit installed in my 6 round and 7 round magazines.

[KahrArmed]

Attempted to shoot the HPR JHP's yesterday. Complete fail. First round fired, but second just kept getting stuck on the feed ramp. The conical nose of the round just doesn't seem to like the Kahrs that I own. [emoji22]

[TeaDub]

My CW380 fed the HPRs well. The one drawback to that load is the crimp was quite weak (on the 2 boxes I tried). After just two or three chamberings, setback was visible. My Kahr also loves the Gold Dots. That is what I use. My CW is mostly a summer carry. In the hot weather, I'm not as concerned about the thick denim "requirement".

[SlowBurn]

Hornady CD. I think it got a bad rap re penetration from one outlier session on ammo quest. Others have recorded fine penetration and expansion. Feed reliability is great.

[KahrArmed]

I have sent the gun into Kahr for lock back issues, and I also mentioned the HPR issue, maybe it'll come back with that taken care of as well.

[jocko]

corbon powerball works really nice.. Just sayin

[3502dav]

Precision one has been perfect for me.


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[CharlieR]

I've been carrying PDX1 Bonded in my P380. Cycles just fine.

[SmokyT]

Speer Gold Dot here.

[muggsy]

Somehow I don't find it necessary to waste a lot of money on a perp. I use the round that the .380 was originally designed around which is the .380 ball round. It's the round that has killed more people that all of the other .380 rounds put together. It feeds well and you don't have to be concerned about inadequate penetration of the perp or anyone standing behind the perp for that matter. Anyone standing behind the perp that I'm shooting at is a damn fool anyway. :)

[RonW]

While its true that .380 ball will get you the penetration however using ball ammo with todays selection of defensive .380 thats out on the market today is just plain ridiculous.

For one, ball ammo, creates a non existent wound channel, in order to stop an assailant, the round must expand upon impact, creating a large wound channel that will cause incapitation by either bleed out or shock from impact. Ball ammo greatly increases the chance of having the round go thru a body and zip on to a innocent 3rd party. Is that what you want? I would not risk it either. A expanding round such as a .380 will not penetrate as deep, however as a CCW holders you owe it to yourself & to socieity to be responsible to those around you in a self defense situation. Of all the bullets out there, why anyone would choose ball ammo is beyond me.

There has been some extensive study & tests that prove that XTP bullets give the best performance therefore I load up my BG380 with Hornady's American Gunner XTP .380.

Ammo Quest review of the best .380 loads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

[DavidR]

Uh-oh

What happened to the last guy that made Muggsy mad?

[RonW]

Uh-oh

What happened to the last guy that made Muggsy mad?

Muggsy can go stand in the corner & pout if he wants.... But seriously I mean no disrespect. But if anyone is not concerned about who is standing behind a badguy in a self defense shooting then he/she should rethink their priorities before carrrying a handgun in public. But the intent on having a concealed carry permit is to legally carry a firearm & use deadly force as an absolute last resort if all else fails, the idea is to stop the bad guy, we do not intend to kill or turn the bad guy into a piece of swiss cheese.
Common sence shows that a FMJ causes a very small wound channel & is prone to over penetrate. To use a ball ammo round in a pistol intended for self defense (except on the range of course) is irresponsible & ineffective at best.

[berettabone]

Muggsy can go stand in the corner & pout if he wants.... But seriously I mean no disrespect. But if anyone is not concerned about who is standing behind a badguy in a self defense shooting then he/she should rethink their priorities before carrrying a handgun in public. But the intent on having a concealed carry permit is to legally carry a firearm & use deadly force as an absolute last resort if all else fails, the idea is to stop the bad guy, we do not intend to kill or turn the bad guy into a piece of swiss cheese.
Common sence shows that a FMJ causes a very small wound channel & is prone to over penetrate. To use a ball ammo round in a pistol intended for self defense (except on the range of course) is irresponsible & ineffective at best.
Maybe you don't want to turn the bad guy into a piece of Swiss cheese:cool:

[dsk]

I agree with you Ron. The problem is finding a .380 round that will actually expand out of a short barrel like the Kahr's and not end up acting like a ball round anyway. I wish there would be more ballistics gel tests online that didn't use the ridiculous FBI criteria of four layers of heavy denim. Unless you shoot some guy in Wyoming in the dead of winter nobody's wearing four layers of denim. More likely a thin cotton shirt which shouldn't plug up most hollow points.

[RonW]

I agree with you Ron. The problem is finding a .380 round that will actually expand out of a short barrel like the Kahr's and not end up acting like a ball round anyway. I wish there would be more ballistics gel tests online that didn't use the ridiculous FBI criteria of four layers of heavy denim. Unless you shoot some guy in Wyoming in the dead of winter nobody's wearing four layers of denim. More likely a thin cotton shirt which shouldn't plug up most hollow points.


Some of the tests on you tube shown just that, hollow points clogging up with denim then they act just like a FMJ. I guess it would make a differnce on the weather/part of the country one lives that would determin which type of bullet would be most effective. For example, this part of south texas where I live its mostly summer weather/tee shirts mostly, so I could probably get away with using Hornady's American Gunner XTP which is a hollow point Vs say, Hornady's critical duty which uses their flex tip bullet (plastic thingy on tip) which may give better performance on an assailant wearing a heavy winter coat..

In all my years of life I've never seen anyone wear 4 layers of denim

[SlowBurn]

I like Hornady CD myself, but from what I've read a lot of pretty serious people agree with Muggsy on FMJ 380 ammo. I believe Ayoob is in that camp. Anyway, carrying soft nose ammo is no guarantee that innocents behind the bad guy will be safe. What if you (perish the thought) miss? Unlikely I know, but I'd like to see statistics of how many people have been injured by 380 rounds which completely missed the intended target vs those injured because a 380 round over penetrated the bad guy.

If we're concerned, as we should be, about hitting bystanders, I think practice in re-positioning so "grandma" is out of the line of fire is probably more important than carrying soft nose especially in the 380 caliber.

[RonW]

I like Hornady CD myself, but from what I've read a lot of pretty serious people agree with Muggsy on FMJ 380 ammo. I believe Ayoob is in that camp. Anyway, carrying soft nose ammo is no guarantee that innocents behind the bad guy will be safe. What if you (perish the thought) miss? Unlikely I know, but I'd like to see statistics of how many people have been injured by 380 rounds which completely missed the intended target vs those injured because a 380 round over penetrated the bad guy.

If we're concerned, as we should be, about hitting bystanders, I think practice in re-positioning so "grandma" is out of the line of fire is probably more important than carrying soft nose especially in the 380 caliber.

Everyone can use whatever rounds you feel is necessary to get the job done, with me, I use Hornady's American Gunner XTP's in 380, 9mm & .40S&W in all my carry weapons. Keep in mind that most of Massad Ayoob's book's written on the subject were published back in the late 80's-90's... There's been a lot of advancements in ballistics & bullet selection in the past 10 years for .380. Today's .380 loads are not what grandpa used to use.

[Ron AZ]

I agree with you Ron. The problem is finding a .380 round that will actually expand out of a short barrel like the Kahr's and not end up acting like a ball round anyway. I wish there would be more ballistics gel tests online that didn't use the ridiculous FBI criteria of four layers of heavy denim. Unless you shoot some guy in Wyoming in the dead of winter nobody's wearing four layers of denim. More likely a thin cotton shirt which shouldn't plug up most hollow points.

DSK, the .380 tests most referenced (Shootingthebull) tested all the bullets in both bare gellatin and through denim. So you can look at the results for both.