P380 Jammed/stuck slide - help solve my screwup

[festus]

First of all, my problem was not with Kahr or the pistol - it was of my own making.

I screwed up and I have not excuse, but I am here asking for help to fix it.

The pistol is a new P380 that is my wife's, and we've been getting it broken in - first session was 4 mags full, had a small number of fail to feeds and stovepipes, figured it wasn't anything serious. Couple times slide locked back on mags with ammo still available.

Last night, planned on the same program, shoot 3 or 4 mags full, continuing the breakin period. First mag again had a few hiccups.

Second mag began to lock open the slide after almost every shot. I thought possibly a weak grip might contribute to the slide stop wobbling around and if it also had a weak spring, might be the problem. I fired off a magazine full and didn't have a problem, so my wife again started shooting.

Same thing was occurring, and I was paying attention that her thumbs were not contacting the slide stop and pushing it up during firing.

So I unloaded the pistol, removed the slide stop and pulled the slide assembly off of the frame. Saw nothing out of line, and examined the slide stop, still nothing jumped out at me. Then I re-inserted the slide stop in the frame to visually check the slide stop and spring and how they worked.

Still no problem that I could see.

So I went to re-install the slide assembly.

You see my problem ?? No excuses - I flat failed to remove the slide stop from the frame before putting the slide assembly on the pistol.

Before I realized it, the slide had become stuck. The rear of the slide is about 3/8 in. from the back of the frame.

The slide won't move fore or aft.

The slide stop will not budge out of the frame.

I have tried a plastic hammer and light taps, and nothing will budge.

I am hoping someone out there is able to help me solve my problem.

I feel so dumb.

[Bawanna]

Don't panic, stay away from the large hammers and the bench vise. I'm sure there's a bunch of us already trying to wrap our minds around this.
I can't visualize the slide running over the slide stop to within 3/8" of the back of the frame.
Where's the barrel at in this jammed up situation? Is the barrel hood where it normally is our left behind out front someplace with the barrel sticking out the front?
You no doubt didn't apply an over amount of force to push the slide on so I'm perplexed as to why it's stuck so hard.
If you haven't already I'd be trying to manipulate the slide lock anyway you can move it, also work the trigger a bit without a lot of force so see if it's caught up on something.
I might resort to manipulating the slide lock lever and trying to tap it out or with patience and extreme controll tap the back of the slide forward while wiggling the slide stop.
If you get frustrated and are ready for the big hammer, walk away and play another day, only bad things can happen.
I've heard that if you assemble and miss the barrel lug with the take down lever it's a for sure trip back to kahr. But never heard of installing the slide with the slide lock lever already in place, don't sound possible.
I'm working on this in my head and on my bench in a bit.
Guys we need some help here, put on the tin foil hats and work this out.

[Bawanna]

Ok, some quality bench time with my PM45, I don't have a P380.

I tried to duplicate your situation right up to but not quite getting all jammed up. The 380 might be slightly different but should be very similar. I can now see that the slide could indeed get within 3/8" of the back of the frame with little to no effort.
It appears to be impossible for the feed ramp and locking lug to ride over the take down lever. I just don't see anyway it would even be close to possible. By forcing the slide to the rear it's the perfect wedge setup though. The feed ramp would ride under the takedown lever and jam up against the bottom of the chamber and could easily be very tight.
I'd go with what I mentioned earlier, tap the back of the slide with a rubber or soft face hammer, while trying to move the take down lever. With a little force that takedown lever really should move, other than the jam situation I can't see anything mechanically holding it in place.

Give it a little love and let us know what happens.

[jlottmc]

That was going to be my response, but as I sit here at work, I just can't visualize what is going on too well. It it is rather busy here. Don't give up, we'll get it done.

[festus]

Thanks for the advice. Hope somebody can come up with something.

You are right, I didn't force it on when it initially happened. We were still at the firing line, and it was a quick and simple disassembly, inspect, and re-assembly, and as soon as I ran into resistance, I knew what had happened, and it already had.

The barrel/chamber hood is in it's proper place in the ejection port, and finger pressure will allow it to drop a short 1/16 in.

The slide itself is not jammed solid. It will move fore and aft a short 1/8".

As far as moving the slide stop lever, it will not move or pivot at all. It is solidly in the horizontal position.

As far as the trigger goes, it has complete and free travel, completely thru the extremes of it's travel.

Just a thought, but would popping the trigger pin out and dropping the trigger and any other related parts that might free up do the trick?

If it would help, I could take some pictures and post them, too.

I really dread sending it back in to the factory.

Appreciate your efforts though.

[jlottmc]

I doubt that pulling that pin would do anything but make your head hurt more. Try this then, take a brass drift and bench dog to the slide stop after finding the spot with the least pressure on the stop, and give that a fair whack. You should be able to get to the witness marks to allow the slide stop to come out then. When you get there, line those marks up and pull the slide stop out. It may take a bit of effort, and removing the slide after that may as well.

[festus]

Want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly -

I should use the brass punch on the right side of the slide stop pin once the slide is in the position of least resistance?

Once that pin moves, should it come all the way out, or will I need to move the slide to the witness marks??

I'm not sure that would be possible, because if the pin isn't all the way out of the frame, it would still be interfering with the feed ramp to move any further rearward to get the witness marks to line up.

Maybe I'm not able to visualize exactly what you said.

[Bawanna]

I would definitely not drive out that trigger pin. I don't think it's contributing. The slide still moving back and forth even an 1/8" had got to be a postive sign.
I'm not sure you'll be able to get the witness marks to align, so I'd try moving the barrel up and down and forcing the slide forward without resorting to the big hammer but a good rap. If it looks like the slide stop could clear the slide I'd be trying to knock that out too if you follow. If the slide lock was inserted all the way then the slide will be over the tabs and not able to get past the slide.
Wiggle the barrel, rap on the back of the slide and see what if anything happens. I want to nail this thing today and make my day.

[Bawanna]

Where do ya live festus, I'm coming over.

[jlottmc]

Want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly -

I should use the brass punch on the right side of the slide stop pin once the slide is in the position of least resistance?

Once that pin moves, should it come all the way out, or will I need to move the slide to the witness marks??

I'm not sure that would be possible, because if the pin isn't all the way out of the frame, it would still be interfering with the feed ramp to move any further rearward to get the witness marks to line up.

Maybe I'm not able to visualize exactly what you said.

You have the right idea, if it doesn't move, the play with the barrel. In any event one or both of those will get you disassembled again. I hope Bawanna doesn't have to make a road trip...

[festus]

Thanks guys for the help. I'm in the middle of a cornfield in SouthEast Iowa.

I'm with you now on NOT driving the pin out from the right side and why, I think.

[Bawanna]

Iowa, damn, that's a far piece from Wa. I'll have to stop for gas.

I'm not sure by your last post your with us here. Tapping the takedown lever pin from the right side IS the plan. If you tap it and it moves and the left side tabs clear the slide then yank that puppy right out of there and you should be home free. If you tap it and the left side tabs are hitting inside the slide frame rails your still stuck. Then you'll have to try driving that slide forward wiggling everything possible to free up it's path. I gotta believe a good rap on the back of that slide would push it forward, I don't get what it's hanging up on.
I'll start loading the van, looks like it's gonna be an overnighter.

[festus]

OK, now I am with you. Not sure why I got the one a couple back screwed up.

It does appear by looking carefully from the top as I try and put pressure on the right side of the pin, that the pin wants to move but the rear portion of the slide stop lever on the left side does not.

I agree it's stuck inside the left frame rail. On what is still a mystery to me.

Looking up into the mag well, I can see nothing that appears helpful.

I have tried manipulating the barrel with finger pressure on the chamber in the ejection port, and even putting a wooden pencil in the barrel and trying different directions of pressure there, and even using my third hand to tap on the back of the slide at the same time manipulating the trigger.

Maybe I'm not holding my tongue just right. I'm 'bout ready to walk away and start fresh again later.

If you guys can get me out of this jam, I may have to seriously think of some reward. Dozen ears of good Iowa sweet corn or something.

[Bawanna]

Ok the pencil / dowel trick in the barrel is good. Assuming the takedown lever is indeed inside the slide rails which I gotta believe it is we gotta stick with pushing that slide forward.
The barrel being able to move up and down is really perplexing because that is the part that should be wedged on the slide stop pin. If the barrel is moving up and down that doesn't sound like what's happening.
My next trick if I was in Iowa holding your gun which I may be soon, would be to put the slide in a nicely padded vise with the mag well up. Get the slide nice and snug and wiggle that barrel up and down and pull back with the frame. See if you can get any movement happening. If at any point you get to the witness marks where that slide stop lever would clear the slide, drive it out. Tap it, whatever it takes. It's starting to sound like rather than a wedge situation something has dropped or got snagged somehow but looking at mine, I can't see what the heck it would be. I best go take another look see.

[festus]

OK - that's gonna mean a trip down to the basement workshop.

Good place to stop today.

Thanks a ton, you make me believe I might get out of this yet.

God Bless You, Son.

[jlottmc]

We'll get you out. Don't panic, and take it slow. The barrel may need to go fore and aft (backwards and forwards) not up and down. A love tap to the front of the barrel might be in order, while the pistol is in that padded vise. As you say take a siesta and come back fresh. We'll be here.

[Bawanna]

Siesta? Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead, lets give this stuck up wench the cure. Pour a cup of Jack Daniels down the barrel and swallow it as it comes out the mag well? Might give us a whole new perspective.
How we suppose to sleep with a jamed gun in the house.
I'm gonna try not thinking about this for awhile so maybe I can sleep tonight. It' unusually hot here in WA last couple days, how hot was it you day? It's damn hot. I gonna go in my relatively cool little workshop and tear my PM apart again, maybe do an exocism on it to remove the evil demons from the aforementioned P380. If nothing else maybe I'll stop thinking about that angel that turned me to stone. Must be a double agent angel, the devil is inside my head making me want to see her front. Maybe a paper sack?

[Bawanna]

Wynn, you got your P380 back, what's your take on this situation. Is there anything much different between the 380 and the PM45 that I'm missing?

Don't jamb yours up.

[festus]

I can sleep good tonight because of several other weapons that are ready for service whenever the need should arise.

Weather here is mid 80's and fairly high humidity. Had a family reunion/potluck tonight, and you could sweat just standing talking. Not much for a breeze.

And I can't say enough how much I appreciate you guys taking on my problem.

Talk to you tomorrow.

[jlottmc]

No worries, I used to work with a rather large, goofy, but large Cpl. from Winnebago County. Good people and sorely missed too. Just let us know what else we can do for you.

[Bawanna]

Any progress on the elusive stuck up 380?

All I can think about, well this and the angel.

[pistol pete]

I would just send it back to the factory and let the pro's do what they do best. It's not worth the risk of doing unreversalbe damage IMO.

[festus]

Monday update for you guys. No progress.

I'm going to go to my local FFL holder and have him ship it to the factory.

I'll try and get ahold of them first and see if they have anything else to say before it ships.

I'll let you all know.

Thanks again for all the brainpower.

Jack

[Bawanna]

Sure wish I could have played with this one a little bit. Too many things I can't comprehend. Now we'll never know. Oh well. They'll make it correct.

[Bawanna]

Did we ever have a happy ending on this stuck 380? People wanna know.

[festus]

No, sorry. I tried everything suggested and even some stuff and combinations that weren't. Finally took it to my local gun dealer, wrote a letter with all the gory details, and had to send it in to the factory. Haven't heard anything back yet from them, but it hasn't been shipped long.

If I ever find out what the h-e-double toothpicks happened for sure, I'll post it.

Thanks again fellas.

Festus

[jlottmc]

Sorry, keep us posted at any rate. Wish we could have helped a bit more.

[mattroach]

Just for everyone information:
I did the exact same thing, and man did it make me feel dumb.
I had even read this thread before, and still did it.

But I think I found out what keeps the slide from coming off.
The barrel keeps the slide from moving back any further, but the cocking cam is what keeps it from moving forward. When the slide rolls over that cocking cam it pops up and won't let the slide go back forward.
I was able to stick a thin piece of metal between the cocking cam and the back of the frame and roll the cam enough to get it clear of the slide.
If anyone else has this problem, get ahold of me and I can go into more detail if need be.

[jocko]

If it were mine, I would vise it up protecting the finish with what ever and then make a wooden dowel the size of that slide stop pin on the right side of the gun, or put a peace of duct tape over the right side of that slide stop pin and get a brass punch the same size as the pin and align everything up and give it one good blast with a hammer and that pin will come out, with no damage to anything. Kahr will do the same to it

what you did is not stupid, I have to admit I did it on my kahr and it was a damn BRAIN FAULT. I did exactly what I have stated for you to do and it worked.

I think of the slide locking open about every shot, that it could be ammo related, or thumb hitting the slide stop lever. Or the slide stop lever was installed incorrectly under that little spring instead of over it... very common mistake to. Shooting lefthanded will show if tha tis the issue. You might want to refer to the propper prepping of your new kahr to as it talks about checking to see if your rounds are hitting the inside of the slide stop lever. If that be the case I am sure kahr wills end you another lever..

Mattroach, that slide coming of hard on the P380 kahrs are very common, With the slide lock lever out pull the slide forward and at the same time pull the trigger and it will come off. The manual states other wise but I have been told by kahr inside people to do this and indeed it works on my gun perfect..

[Wlfman13]

I can't believe it, but I did this, also. A call to Kahr made me feel like an idiot when the tech on the phone had never even heard of it happening. But, I ultimately did what mattroach did, except I used a small paper clip, straightened, with a 1/16" ninety degree bend in the end. The cocking cam needed to be pulled back in its rotation about 1/16". When the slide is stuck on the cam, the trigger will pull but the cam won't rotate, even though the trigger pull feels the same.

Mattroach's fix just saved me a return trip to Kahr.

[DavidR]

Glad you got it fixed. Isn't that great when an old post solves a new problem?


Dave

[Wlfman13]

Glad you got it fixed. Isn't that great when an old post solves a new problem?


Dave


Yes, yes it is! It was so aggravating, but so easy to replicate, and so easy to not understand what the slide was catching on. Once I determined that the slide was catching on the cocking cam, the next step was trying to force it to rotate, since any pressure on that cam allows the trigger to still be pulled, and feel the same without the cam rotating.

This is pretty easy to replicate, without recreating the bonehead scenario that I did. If you install your slide correctly, but don't install the slide stop yet, the slide will move forward about 3/8" and then stop. If you try to slide the slide forward and remove the slide from the frame, the slide will catch on the cocking cam. Moving he slide back 1/8" will allow the cocking cam to rotate after pulling the trigger, which will allow the slide to clear the cam. HOWEVER, pretend that after you initially push the slide forward so that it catches on the cocking cam, that you cannot move the slide backwards at all. Not even a little bit. Then, pull the trigger. The slide still will not come off, because the trigger did not rotate the cam. Move the slide back a tad, and wallah!, the trigger can move the cam and the slide can slide off.

In the locked up scenario I created after having a brain fart, the small paper clip can be inserted underneath the back plate and can be used to grab the cam and force it to rotate. It doesn't take very much pressure.

I hope that all makes sense.

[Wlfman13]

Glad you got it fixed. Isn't that great when an old post solves a new problem?


Dave


Yes, yes it is! It was so aggravating, but so easy to replicate, and so easy to not understand what the slide was catching on. Once I determined that the slide was catching on the cocking cam, the next step was trying to force it to rotate, since any pressure on that cam allows the trigger to still be pulled, and feel the same without the cam rotating.

This is pretty easy to replicate, without recreating the bonehead scenario that I did. If you install your slide correctly, but don't install the slide stop yet, the slide will move forward about 3/8" and then stop. If you try to slide the slide forward and remove the slide from the frame, the slide will catch on the cocking cam. Moving the slide back 1/8" will allow the cocking cam to rotate after pulling the trigger, which will allow the slide to clear the cam. HOWEVER, pretend that after you initially push the slide forward so that it catches on the cocking cam, that you cannot move the slide backwards at all. Not even a little bit. Then, pull the trigger. The slide still will not come off, because the trigger did not rotate the cam. Move the slide back a tad, and wallah!, the trigger can move the cam and the slide can slide off.

In the locked up scenario I created after having a brain fart, the small paper clip can be inserted underneath the back plate and can be used to grab the cam and force it to rotate. It doesn't take very much pressure.

I hope that all makes sense.

[TheLastDaze]

LOL !!!! Its good to see something positive come from ressurecting a thread :p