Finally decided on Winchester Ranger Talon 127 grain +P+ for my PM-9

[Swat_dude]

After JoshH posted up some pics of some Ranger bullets expanded, I remembered the old Black Talon and how devastating it could be. I ordered some and just received them Friday. Since then I have also done a ton more research on the internet. The penetration and expansion of this round is spot on, even through heavy clothing. Upon personal inspection, there are two more reason I think this round is superior for the PM-9, bullet geometry and nickel plated cases. The bullet is very "pointy" and seems best suited to avoid feeding issues in the PM-9. In fact, hand cycling the first round in the mag does not cause it to hang up like posted on youtube or for me personally with Gold Dots and Corbon rounds. The nickel cases are always a nice touch because they add an extra edge to smooth extraction from the chamber. The only performance area they don't accel at is through drywall or vehicle glass. They plug with drywall, don't expand, and over penetrate. I'm on the fence on this one. The data I saw on Federal HST showed it expanded properly through drywall and penetrated 13 inches, just like it never hit the drywall. But my question is do I really want a round that is more deadly through drywall??? I did when I was on the tactical team but for home defense I don't think it is a good idea. The Winchesters performance on vehicle glass was just okay but there are trade offs to every ammo. I'm sticking with the Talon.

[jlottmc]

That sounds like a winner. Yours is a fine example of research and deliberation for a chosen weapon, and including the weapon as well if memory serves. As for the the dry wall/heavy barrier issues, remember that the same round will fly through one test, and turn around and fail another. Unfortunately for us, bullet and projectile work by it's very nature cannot be an exact science, nor what happens when that bullet hits a scumbag. We all give it our best thoughts and dance with them who brung us. Again, nice choice.

[Shawn Dodson]

But my question is do I really want a round that is more deadly through drywall??? Lethality is a function of what anatomical structures are penetrated by the bullet. The bullet is going to be deadly whether or not it expands. Expansion of the 127gr +P+ JHP bullet MAY make it slightly (perhaps up to 5%) "more deadly" depending on the bullet's exact path through the body.

I'm just sayin'.

[4T5Guy]

Ya, ok I agree, but that same path of anouther non expanded bullet, say this time a .452, exactly duplicating the hit on those same anatomical structures, would or would not lead to more hemorrhaging and a quicker shut down of the nervous system? I know where you are coming from, but "up to 5%" seems like better chances when time and or precise placement is not an option. Just my opinion.

[joshh]

thanks for the mention swat. i have been carrying the winchester pdx in my .40 glock & in my pm9. they are a newer round that the fbi is carrying. for some reason i cannot get the win. talons here in mass. from what i've been reading the win. pdx & win. talon are extremely similar but the pdx has a different bonding process. the pdx is def a more expesive round but that doesnt mean its better. i was in cabelas in hartford and they had the win rangers there and a box of 50 of them was same $$ as a box of 20 pdx. they didnt have any 147gr which is what i've decided to carry in the pm9. my cousin invited me to shoot up a new safariland duty vest (for display in his store) with different ammo and we were all very impressed with the rangers and the pdx 9mm, .40 & .45... by the way that vest is amazing and i would recomment one to any leo! zero fails!

[Shawn Dodson]

Ya, ok I agree, but that same path of anouther non expanded bullet, say this time a .452, exactly duplicating the hit on those same anatomical structures, would or would not lead to more hemorrhaging and a quicker shut down of the nervous system? I know where you are coming from, but "up to 5%" seems like better chances when time and or precise placement is not an option. Just my opinion.
In practical effect the difference between unexpanded 9mm and .45 is negligible, and would be more a function of the diameter of the bullet’s meplat than the diameter of the bullet. “Meplat” is the term for the bullet’s “nose”. In the case of an unexpanded JHP bullet the meplat is the rim diameter of the hollowpoint cavity. Thus, provided any barrier material clogging the cavity doesn’t extend above the rim of the cavity, an unexpanded 9mm JHP with a larger diameter meplat will crush a larger diameter permanent cavity than an unexpanded .45 caliber JHP with a smaller diameter meplat. An example of this might be seen with 9mm Remington Golden Saber JHP, which has a wide meplat, versus .45 ACP Hornady XTP JHP, which has a smaller diameter meplat than most other JHP bullets.


Differences in bullet shape can also affect the amount of wound trauma produced by a penetrating bullet. For example a 9mm FMJ-TC will crush a larger diameter permanent cavity than a .45 caliber FMJ-RN. The flat nose of the TC (truncated cone) bullet will crush tissue that will merely stretch and “flow” around the comparatively slipstreamed contours of the RN (round-nose) bullet.

“Up to 5%” requires moon and stars to align in order for the hypothetical increase to be realized. See: Winchester Ranger Talon (Ranger SXT/Black Talon) Wound Ballistics (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon)

[jlottmc]

I thought I was doing good when it goes bang, and I hit the SOB... Then again, I like big holes too, and BOOM.

[4T5Guy]

Thanks Shawn Dodson. I thought that you would have understood that I meant unexpanded bullets of equal type. Like I stated, I do agree with you. I also could have loaded the senario, one way or the other. I am humbled by your retained and or retrieved knowledge. You even mentioning diameter as being a big factor answers my question . A 9mm not yet expanded, this time say standard ball, bumps the very edge of the aorta, bruising but not rupturing it. A .45acp, standard ball, trackin the same path, would likely rip it open. No replacement for displacement in vehicals, diameter aids probability in firearms.

[Shawn Dodson]

A 9mm not yet expanded, this time say standard ball, bumps the very edge of the aorta, bruising but not rupturing it. A .45acp, standard ball, trackin the same path, would likely rip it open. I spoke many years ago to Dr. Fackler about tangential wounds to major blood vessels. A tangential wound differs from a grazing wound in that a grazing wound just touches and more or less abrades the vessel wall, whereas a tangential wound touches and breaches the vessel wall. After taking a few measurements with calipers Fackler estimated that a bullet's "effective diameter" would have to overlap the wall of a great vessel by about 2/10th inch (5 mm) to produce a tangential wound, as opposed to a grazing wound.

A bullet's "effective diameter" is variable, and should not be confused with its physical diameter. Effective diameter is smaller than physical diameter (except for full wadcutter bullets). It refers to the surface area of the bullet that is actually crushing soft tissues, as opposed to surface area that is merely coming into physical contact with soft tissues. I already described how bullet shape is one factor that affects effective diameter. Another variable is bullet velocity.

It's a common misconception that a bullet crushes a permanent cavity of constant diameter from beginning to end of the wound track. In reality the diameter of the permanent cavity decreases with penetration, because the bullet is slowing down, which allows soft tissues more time to move out of the bullet's way as it passes through.

IIRC, round nose bullets have a bullet shape factor that's about 60% of physical diameter. In simple terms, what this means is it will crush an average of 60% of its diameter over the course of the wound track. At the beginning of the wound track it might crush 80% of what it touches and near the end of the wound track it might crush 30-40%.

A .45 ACP bullet has a physical radius that's about 1.25mm greater than 9mm. When we account for variables such as bullet shape, velocity, total penetration depth along the wound path in which the the aorta is encountered by the bullet, and tissue elasticity, it should become apparent just how little the difference is in wounding potential between 9mm FMJ-RN and .45 ACP FMJ-RN.

One cannot generalize that .45 ACP always pokes a bigger hole than 9mm. Physical diameter is just one of many variables, most of them unpredictable, that play a role.

[jlottmc]

I like things that go BOOM. That's all I need to know. I'll do what I can to get it there on target, and if I have to shoot twice, or shoot till they think they've had enough, so be it. That kinda goes back to the one big hole vs. lots of little holes argument in mind. Whichever way you go, accuracy is final, and you should train and adjust for your gear.

[JoeMB]

I agree with jlottmc, if you can't hit what you are aiming at the round size does not matter. I know that my department and the military teach a controlled pair/shoot until the threat is eliminated. If I ever have to fire my sidearm at a threat you can bet that he will have more then one well expanded hole in him! Then when asked why he didn't have more I can answer by the time I had to reload he was on the ground.

Always remember train as you fight and train often! Stay Safe!

[4T5Guy]

Wow, I have learned, or maybe relearned so much in the last few days. Much thanks, AGAIN to Shawn Dodson. It may take me longer to leave the house now though. My assumption, was based on a few of my 5.56 hits, and and at that time, I had wished they were instead from a 7.62. I have never tried to stop anything with a handgun, and I really hope I never have to,(or want to), but...

[joshh]

any defensive round or rounds sent well placed into a bad guy should do the trick. I used to believe the "old timers" that i talk to who say "never carry smaller than a .45" but now most of them carry 9mm or smaller. i think i'm going to pick up a seecamp soon and thats a .32acp for a back pocket carry. i figure the easier it is to carry, the more often i'll carry. i wont have any reasons not to carry something at that point: glock22 owb, pm9 iwb, seecamp pocket.

[Bawanna]

I stick with believing the old timers, they know of what they speak.

[OldLincoln]

Hey Bawanna, I had a thought for a new, really lethal round. What if you packed some C4 in the hollow of a hollow point. That should have some stopping power and us old guys with tired eyes need only hit the right BG.

Now to get some C4 to build a prototype. How much pressure to apply to pack it in? Like Tim Taylor says more is bette....BOOM!

[Bawanna]

Great concept. Using that we could carry mouse guns with big hollow points filled with the magical C4 or perhaps even pea shooters in ball point pen size. I can visualize the test reports, 13ft of penetration with a 13" wound channel out of my baby browning 25 auto. The 50AE's got nothing on me. Figure out some sort of contact ignition, remember to blow and not inhale, and god help ya if you drop one while reloading.
Maybe we best leave this on the concept drawing board and ponder it a bit more.

[OldLincoln]

Nah, what the heck! We learn by trying right? I figure we can make the C4 really soft by heating it in the microwave for a minute or so them put in in a cake froster and squeeze in it with no problem. If we can find a percussion detonator and snip a piece on top it should ignite.

I figure through trial and error we can size the amount of C4 to jello the innards - like those ray guns they use on TV. We can control penetration so bystanders in a 10' radius only get a shower of innards.

Now where did I see that internet formula for making C4 in your kitchen...

[Bawanna]

I think we definitely need Wynn on the design team. I think he's a natural with this research and development stuff. Plus he can take cool pictures of the results during testing. Plus he might have people on the inside to access some of the commercial C4 so we don't have to waste time cooking it on the wifes kitchen stove. And the biggest plus is he's in Florida about as far away as you can get from me in the opposite corner.
I do think your really onto something here though. I don't know where all my cautiousness came from, I'm usually a damn the torpedoes kind of guy. Ya think I'm getting soft?

[DKD]

All this technical jargon plays well with technically minded scientists but fails to dispell what actual happens on a living target. The math can sometimes lie to favor the velocity factor in favor of the 9mm. {M=1/2mv squared} The velocity squared in that formula reigns as king there but doesn't really take into account the transferance of said energy fellas.
Truth in combat says quite different my friends. Hard ball to hardball the 45 acp is far more effective fight stopper with torso hits over the 9mm. Combat has proven that, thats why the Army Special Forces and Seals opt out fpr 45 ACP's pistols over the 9mm and they are easier to silence to boot being a subsonic round.
Anyone can make a case with very well placed shots, but few continue the fight after struck with the old 230 grain ball. It is quite simple and most here have not taken into account that the 45 acp expends almost all of its energy in a man size target with little left over due to its mass and diameter as they relate to the velocity and penetration....its just an effective, and efficient cartridge. Without expansion which allows the 9mm to transfer its payload you have a pencil hole over penetrator unless a vital organ, blood vessel spine or head is hit.
I am not here to knock the 9mm as it is an effective cartridge especially with modern loadings, but FMJ to FMJ it can't hold a candel to the 45 ACP. We aslo have much better expanding bullets for the old war horse which makes even the shorty 3" barrel cannons quite impressive even at 750-850 fps ranges....so what's all the hub bub about....there is room for both in my arsonal, how about yours...?

[Bawanna]

I keep it even more scientific but relatively simple. Given the choice do you want to throw marbles or bricks.
I prefer bricks. The 45 was originally designed to knock down doped up phillipino's? chewing bettle nuts. 38's didn't even faze em. The 45's originally in revolvers at least knocked em down while rifles could be reloaded in the trenches and brought back into play. Might have my history slightly twisted but the general idea is sound. It's sort of the same Jack OCConner, Elmer Keith super fast light / heavy slow argument thats gone on since Jocko was a child.

[OldLincoln]

I keep it even more scientific but relatively simple. Given the choice do you want to throw marbles or bricks.
I prefer bricks. The 45 was originally designed to knock down doped up phillipino's? chewing bettle nuts. 38's didn't even faze em. The 45's originally in revolvers at least knocked em down while rifles could be reloaded in the trenches and brought back into play. Might have my history slightly twisted but the general idea is sound. It's sort of the same Jack OCConner, Elmer Keith super fast light / heavy slow argument thats gone on since Jocko was a child.I remember Jocko as a child and they were arguing over a slow heavy club vs a fast light one! Same argument when he was half grown, big heavy & slow broad sword vs skinny light but fast saber. Oh to be young again... sigh.

[Bawanna]

Would be nice to turn the clock back 40 years or so huh? Course at the same time not sure I'd change anything, just like to do it all over again one more time perhaps with a little more enthusiasm.

[Shawn Dodson]

Hard ball to hardball the 45 acp is far more effective fight stopper with torso hits over the 9mm. I'm unaware of any valid and verifiable data to support this claim. War stories - yes. Hard data - no.


It is quite simple and most here have not taken into account that the 45 acp expends almost all of its energy in a man size target with little left over due to its mass and diameter as they relate to the velocity and penetration....its just an effective, and efficient cartridge. Without expansion which allows the 9mm to transfer its payload you have a pencil hole over penetrator unless a vital organ, blood vessel spine or head is hit.

9mm 124gr FMJ-RN (28 inches penetration):
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/9mm%20US%20M882.jpg

.45 ACP 230gr FMJ-RN (26 inches penetration):
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg


The 45 was originally designed to knock down doped up phillipino's? chewing bettle nuts. 38's didn't even faze em. The 45's originally in revolvers at least knocked em down while rifles could be reloaded in the trenches and brought back into play. Philippine Moro warriors wrapped their torsos in thick vines for body armor, which .38 caliber bullets had a difficult time penetrating. U.S. troops in the Philippines were also armed with .30-40 Krag, which also did not perform effectively because the FMJ bullet did not produce substantial wound trauma. It penetrated deeply before it yawed and it didn't fragment unless it hit bone.

[DKD]

I'm not here to insite a riot, but have you been in combat? I am betting you haven't and going on very limited police shooting....try comparing to thousands of shooting in combat scenario. How much more proof does one need. I am here to tell you 9mm FMJ doesn't get the job done in a real life combat situation. That is why the military had trials again resently for a pistol to replace the Berreta M-9 and guess what...they only tested one calibre and it was back to the 45 ACP.....sorry.
Now if one wants to use modern high tech bullets then you are changing all the parameters and a case can be made for the high velocity and temporary wound cavity that you posted. However the same can be done with the old 45 with the lighter high tech loadings now available...just look at the specialty ammo made by Magsafe.

[bikerbill]

good grief! +p+! what does it feel like to fire those from a PM9? I carry mine daily, loaded with Hornady's Critical Defense standard pressure 115gr rounds, and don't think I'm underpowered ... this cartridge matches FMJ for feeding, but seems to expand very well (in tests I've read ..). I'm very accurate with them at 10 yards or so, which I think is far more important than how hard the round hits ... never shot +p+, but +p's are very hard for me to control in such a light gun with such agressive checkering on the grip ... you're a better man than I am ...

[DKD]

BIKERBILL,

I am currently carrying a PM9 daily until my specialty holster arrives for my PM45. You mentioned the recoil and those cheese grater polymer grips being an issue. Fret no more my friend, just slip on a Hogue Jr. rubber grip on your PM9 and your in like Flint my brother. They feel great and will improve your grip making your hand hold more consistant....I even was able {with some difficulty} get one on my PM45. They fit my hand like a glove and will help your shooting and they only cost about $ 9.00

[Shawn Dodson]

I've never fired +P+ in my PM-9.

I agree with DKD's suggestion to install a Handall Jr. My PM-9 shifted in my firing hand grip when I fired it, but the Handall Jr. fixed that problem. I just slipped it on and then trimmed it using a single-edge razor blade (pushing the blade into the rubber instead of slicing it).

I also installed a Pearce fingergrip magazine extension on my magazine, so I could use my pinkie finger to grip.

My standard CCW load used to be Remington 147gr Golden Saber but I changed to Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot a couple of years ago because it's less expensive to purchase 124gr bullets for handloading my training ammo.

Good luck!

[wyntrout]

Kahr advises against +P+ and if I wanted to shoot that stuff, the K9 would be more appropriate. It's quite a bit sturdier than the PM9, barrel-wise for sure. It has a lot beefier barrel. I know that's not what you're wanting to hear and I'm just pointing that out.

Hear are some pix of P380, PM9, K9, and PM45 for comparison. The middle two are the nines, if you had trouble figuring that out.:D

Wynn:)

[Bawanna]

The old bicicyle inner tube trick works just fine too. Its free if you steal the tube out of the neighbor kids bike.
Doesn't change the grip profile and eliminates the cheese grater feel. I never thought a pistol could have too rough a grip, I like rough but the Kahrs just over the line.

[joshh]

comparing (handgun) fmj vs fmj, theres no replacement for displacement! but the newer "high-tech" rounds have great expansion and energy transfer. like many out here, i've been researching the differences with ammo & have seen that many new rounds should work just fine against a typical bad guy in street clothes. typically a bad guy wont be wearing mil-spec gear & if they were, even the baddest .45 still isn't penetrating.

[DKD]

JOSHH,

Your right on thremoney buck-a-roo. Although I still wouldn't want to be the bad guy evn in milspec attire body armor and have to catch even a 45...penetration or not, thats going to leave a mark...sorta like catching and stopping a medicine ball.....did anybody get the tag on that truck that ran over me...?:eek:

[OldLincoln]

The pics are great. In comparing the PM9 to PM45, the 45 looks really massive. It does look to me that the barrel wall on the PM9 is thicker than the PM45 tho. Is that just my eyes or fact?

[Bawanna]

Nothing wrong with your eyes in this case. The 45 is much thinner. I look at it as a weight reduction benefit for lack of anything else.

[4T5Guy]

I thought all of this was over when I admitted I didn't know sqawt about having to stop anything with a handgun. I have been very nice so far to Shawn Dodson, and do not want to get kicked off of this forum after only one week. I DO like and carry any one of my many 9mm's. I also have 25's, 7.62 x 25's, a 7.63 x 25, 32's, one P380, 38's, 357's, a 44, and too many 45's. I will always carry the biggest diameter that I can at the time. I will still choose one of my 45 Smiths if I can, or my Commander, or my Officers, or my new PM45. I still feel that a tag with my PM45, will do more than one with my PM9, period. I will let it rest in this thread and will not ever again insight such a debate. I promise, (with my fingers crossed).

[Bawanna]

We live for debate and you didn't insight anything. Wouldn't be much to talk about if we all agreed on everything. This thread will probably never die, 6 months from now someone will be browsing the archives, get a bur under his saddle and bring it to the top again and it'll start all over again.
To me it's all about what your confident with. If the 9 works for you or anyone else, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'll sacrifice comfort anyday for in my opinion a real gun everytime. I own a 9 and a 40 just to show I'm open minded but if you see me fighting bad guys (not likely) I'll have a 45 in my hand or preferably a M14 or Garand. Don't care much for mouse 223's either but I have one of those too, just to be open minded.
Go ahead kick off another debate.
Try this my dog can kick your dogs backside.

[Swat_dude]

I keep it even more scientific but relatively simple. Given the choice do you want to throw marbles or bricks.
I prefer bricks. The 45 was originally designed to knock down doped up phillipino's? chewing bettle nuts. 38's didn't even faze em. The 45's originally in revolvers at least knocked em down while rifles could be reloaded in the trenches and brought back into play. Might have my history slightly twisted but the general idea is sound. It's sort of the same Jack OCConner, Elmer Keith super fast light / heavy slow argument thats gone on since Jocko was a child.

I prefer fast marbles. Those who say velocity isn't a factor are ignoring most rifle rounds. Would you rather have a slow 230 grain or a fast 168 grain. I'll take the .308 over the .45. I can't believe this became a .45 vs. 9mm debate. I think people can always find anecdotes to support their platform. I recently read an article where a retired LAPD officer compared 357 mag to 45 on several animals he had to shoot during his career. The one shot with 357 mag flipped over and didn't move. The one shot with 45 ran for several hundred feet. Not my story... his. The point of his article was to disagree with the move from revolvers to semi-auto as being a good thing as far as bullet performance. I don't think bullet energy starts being much of a factor until you get into the higher powered rifle rounds except for velocity being a factor in hollowpoint expansion. The .45 is not a magic bullet. You will never convince me it does something more than a 9mm expanding to the same or more diameter and penetrating to the same depth with one possible exception, the thing the heavy .45 has going for it is momentum. Bone and harder structures are more likely to get out its way when its coming through. This fact is based on science. My 5800 lb Tundra head on against a 1500 lb civic traveling the exact same speed... well, you get the idea... The Tundra wins due to momentum, which has a mass component. You would never convince me that a 180 grain .45 round would outperform a 180 grain .40sw round, assuming the same bullet design and velocity. That .05 inch is totally neglible in that case. Finally, I would much rather have a faster 200 grain 10mm round over a .45 of the same bullet weight anyday. There is a reason the 10mm is the only semi-auto cartridge approved for hunting in some states.

[Swat_dude]

good grief! +p+! what does it feel like to fire those from a PM9? I carry mine daily, loaded with Hornady's Critical Defense standard pressure 115gr rounds, and don't think I'm underpowered ... this cartridge matches FMJ for feeding, but seems to expand very well (in tests I've read ..). I'm very accurate with them at 10 yards or so, which I think is far more important than how hard the round hits ... never shot +p+, but +p's are very hard for me to control in such a light gun with such agressive checkering on the grip ... you're a better man than I am ...

Like my ex-wife... pretty darn snappy!!! I just shot 36 rounds at the range(50 round box minus my 6 and 7 round mags) and while there was substancial recoil, it didn't affect my ability to hold my rapid fire groups to 10 inches at 21 feet. It did do a little number on the bottom of my trigger finger though in the few rounds I shot. One benefit of the hot load... I couldn't get my PM-9 to limp wrist malfunction and I shot 7 of the rounds with my weak hand... no malfunctions. The power of this round knocking the heck out of the slide to the rear would prevent alot of malfunctions in my opinion.

[Swat_dude]

I'm not here to insite a riot, but have you been in combat? I am betting you haven't and going on very limited police shooting....try comparing to thousands of shooting in combat scenario. How much more proof does one need. I am here to tell you 9mm FMJ doesn't get the job done in a real life combat situation. That is why the military had trials again resently for a pistol to replace the Berreta M-9 and guess what...they only tested one calibre and it was back to the 45 ACP.....sorry.
Now if one wants to use modern high tech bullets then you are changing all the parameters and a case can be made for the high velocity and temporary wound cavity that you posted. However the same can be done with the old 45 with the lighter high tech loadings now available...just look at the specialty ammo made by Magsafe.

I don't plan to use my PM-9 in combat, therefore, I won't be wasting my time with FMJ rounds.

[Swat_dude]

I've never fired +P+ in my PM-9.

I agree with DKD's suggestion to install a Handall Jr. My PM-9 shifted in my firing hand grip when I fired it, but the Handall Jr. fixed that problem. I just slipped it on and then trimmed it using a single-edge razor blade (pushing the blade into the rubber instead of slicing it).

I also installed a Pearce fingergrip magazine extension on my magazine, so I could use my pinkie finger to grip.

My standard CCW load used to be Remington 147gr Golden Saber but I changed to Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot a couple of years ago because it's less expensive to purchase 124gr bullets for handloading my training ammo.

Good luck!

I'm not sure where Winchester comes up with +P+. Their specs are 127 grain at 1250 fps, no barrel length stated. Gold Dot +P's are 124 grain at 1220 fps, 4 inch test barrel. I would say that the Winchesters don't have that much more recoil than the Gold Dots I was shooting before. The 100 grain Corbon PowerBalls had significantly less recoil than both the Gold Dot and Ranger ammo.

[Shawn Dodson]

I'm not sure where Winchester comes up with +P+. Their specs are 127 grain at 1250 fps... "+P" and "+P+" are SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute, Inc.) designations for cartridges that exceed industry standard PRESSURE levels for the cartridge. The pressure increase from +P to +P+ may produce only a modest increase in velocity. There are variables that affect pressure levels - bullet friction (rifling, bullet length, bullet material), bullet weight, propellant charge, etc.

Here's a good article that discusses +P and +P+: "Demystifying +P: The Inside Scoop on +P" (http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/demystplusp_0306-7/)

[joshh]

not to start more debate but: im starting a 9mm 147gr vs. 9mm 124gr.+p thread in ammo section.