K9 Barrel Length and SD Ammo

[Streetkahr]

Gold Dot makes both a 124 g +P as well as a version of the same they call Short Barrel for barrels of 3.5" or shorter. I saw a youtube video of 10% ballistic gelatin testing of both out of several barrel lengths, the longest being 3.6". The shorter barrels had unburned powder grains in the gelatin "wound" channel of the standard GD +P, but the 3.6 barrel did not. The 3.6" barrel showed no difference in performance between the 124g +p GD and the Short Barrel version. So here is the question. The K9 barrel is 3.46", but it has polygonal rifling, which would increase the velocity. The question is how much? What length standard barrel would the 3.46 polygonal rifled barrel equate to? 3.6? Longer?

BTW, who else would like to see the T9 slide with the 4" polygonal barrel combined with the K9 frame? IMO, it would be the perfect Kahr, or has Kahr already experimented with it?:confused:

[wyntrout]

I use the +P 124-gr Speer GDSB and I put the 4" ported barrel on my P9. I don't know what velocity results from the combo, though, I would expect a few more fps.

My main carry, or EDC, is my Mag-na-ported P40 with the 180-gr Speer GDSB... and the 230-gr GDSB in my PM45. For the P380, I use the Underwood +P 90-gr Gold Dots.

Wynn

[kwh]

Good questions. I have not a clue to the answers. My preferred carry round in 3"- 3 1/2" 9mm's is the Federal 124 gr. HST. 4" barrel, any major manufacturer round will do, IMHO.

[muggsy]

I don't think that there would be a great noticeable difference in bullet performance between the two types of rifling. No more than a few fps from the same length pistol barrels. The real advantage is in the ease of cleaning and Poly wins hands down. Accuracy might be a little better with the poly, but not so much that the perp would notice. The use of cast lead bullets isn't recommended in Poly barrels.

[Dreams_of_Steel]

BTW, who else would like to see the T9 slide with the 4" polygonal barrel combined with the K9 frame? IMO, it would be the perfect Kahr, or has Kahr already experimented with it?:confused:

I am also very curious how well this would work. I want to find a K9 that I can play with a bit along side my T9 and see if the T9 slide would fit / function properly on a K9 frame. If I could confirm that it would work reliably, I would be buying a K9 in rapid fashion. If anyone has info they could share on this subject, I would be very grateful.

[Streetkahr]

I don't think that there would be a great noticeable difference in bullet performance between the two types of rifling. No more than a few fps from the same length pistol barrels. The real advantage is in the ease of cleaning and Poly wins hands down. Accuracy might be a little better with the poly, but not so much that the perp would notice. The use of cast lead bullets isn't recommended in Poly barrels.

From what I have read, 3 1/2 inches is the dividing line in ammo performance. Anything less can result in unburned powder, The fix seems to be Speer GD 124g +P Short Barrel. 3.6" barrels will burn all the powder in the standard LE GD 124g, but less than 3.6" seems to leave unburned powder in 10% ballistic gelatin, so I am wondering if the the GD Short Barrel would be an advantage in the K9, or if the 3.46" polygonal rifling would equate to a 3.6" barrel resulting in top performance in all 124g 9mm +P SD ammo? Somebody on this forum must certainly know the answer.

[berettabone]

Boy, I don't know, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night............................................. .........I would think that leaving unburned powder in a flesh wound would be a good thing, just sayin...............

[kwh]

Look at the test results of Ammo Quest Shooting the Bull in short barrel 9mm's. My understanding is that ammo results in 9mm is based on 4" barrels with Law Enforcement criteria of barrier penetration ,which is not as great concern in self defense. I also do believe, but I can not quote, the source that in a 9mm, a 3 1/2 " barrel is close enough that choice of ammo does not make that much of a difference. I have read crony results where the fps in polygonal barrrels can be lower than the rifled barrels in the Kahr. Seems the barrels may be an individual matter. Personally I would choose the top performing bullets (not specifically made for short barrel) on Ammo Quest tests in a 3" barrel and use them in a 3 1/2" barrel. Of course 100% feeding would be mandatory. I think any Speer would be an excellent choice. I also think any bullet from a major company would fit your needs in the 3 1/2" bbl 9mm. Velocity does not seem to be everything . Some projectiles will fail to penetrate far enough at higher velocities due to overexpansion.

[ripley16]

The combination of a T9 and K9 is a no-go I am sure, due to the differences in the slide release pin and securing spring. They are opposite sides of the frame on these two models. There are probably other reasons as well. The best solution may be to go polymer- get a TP and cut it down to the old style TP sized 7 round P grip. Same gun, same 4" barrel, same capacity but much lighter than a hybrid K/T9.

[Dreams_of_Steel]

Dang, I was hoping that they used the same internals and frame design. The more I shoot the T9 the more I like it, and once I have the grips modified I think it will be my perfect carry piece. I notice the edges of the wood digging into my ribs a little bit sometimes, and I found that I had a checker patterned indent on my side the other day after a full day of wearing it without tucking in my under shirt. I thought about a P9 when I got my CW9, but every time I go to the range and I take both guns, I find myself shooting the T9 exclusively. The CW just sits in my speedvault next to the bed. It may be time to replace it with a PM45, I really want to shoot a Kahr in .45ACP.

[Streetkahr]

Look at the test results of Ammo Quest Shooting the Bull in short barrel 9mm's. My understanding is that ammo results in 9mm is based on 4" barrels with Law Enforcement criteria of barrier penetration ,which is not as great concern in self defense. I also do believe, but I can not quote, the source that in a 9mm, a 3 1/2 " barrel is close enough that choice of ammo does not make that much of a difference. I have read crony results where the fps in polygonal barrrels can be lower than the rifled barrels in the Kahr. Seems the barrels may be an individual matter. Personally I would choose the top performing bullets (not specifically made for short barrel) on Ammo Quest tests in a 3" barrel and use them in a 3 1/2" barrel. Of course 100% feeding would be mandatory. I think any Speer would be an excellent choice. I also think any bullet from a major company would fit your needs in the 3 1/2" bbl 9mm. Velocity does not seem to be everything . Some projectiles will fail to penetrate far enough at higher velocities due to overexpansion.

Thanks for the reply, kwh. I save so much stuff to bookmarks and files that I sometimes have trouble finding it. Your reply helped me find the video again that started me on this quest "Ammo Quest 9mm: Gold Dot 124 g +P regular vs. Short Barrel in ballistic gel". The URL is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjRcV0eTohs

Further down the page, someone asks the Ammo Quest guy about the 3.8" XDM, and here is the reply, "I would go with the Short Barrel for that. Speer lists the ballistics on their Short Barrel ammo from a 3.5" barrel -- presumably, that's what it was designed for. Most conventional ammo is designed for a 4" barrel. Your XDM is right in the middle, so I'd err on the side of caution and go with the Short Barrel." Although the video above shows no real difference between the standard GD 124g +P and the Short Barrel version for a 3.6" barrel. His tests do indicate a more complete powder burn for the Speer GD Short Barrel version for barrels of 3.5" and shorter. So the GD Short Barrel may have a slight advantage out of the K9.

I also watched his test of Federal HST from 3" barrels and the performance was outstanding. His two 9mm winners so far are the Speer GD 124g +P (both standard and Short Barrel) and the Federal HST (124 g standard velocity and +P, as well as 147 g +P). The last note from him that I could find indicated that there was not yet a clear winner between Speer GD and Federal HST. The Gold Dots may be easier to find online. HST looks to be sold out more often, but I am sure I will be able to find it. I would like to shoot both from my K9 and see which one my Kahr prefers.

EDIT: Oops, I provided the wrong Ammo Quest video URL, although it is still a really good one testing GD +P from a 3" barrel. The video that I now cannot find tests both GD +P's from barrels up to 3.6". Other videos show GD+P working well out of short barrels but GD standard velocity failing. Still other videos show Fed HST working well in both standard and +P.

[Streetkahr]

Boy, I don't know, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night............................................. .........I would think that leaving unburned powder in a flesh wound would be a good thing, just sayin...............

That cracked me up and a sip of coffee went up into my sinuses. It took a while to get it all out.

[berettabone]

I use the Federal 147gr. HST's in the warm months, and switch over to the Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. in the cold months.

[Streetkahr]

The combination of a T9 and K9 is a no-go I am sure, due to the differences in the slide release pin and securing spring. They are opposite sides of the frame on these two models. There are probably other reasons as well. The best solution may be to go polymer- get a TP and cut it down to the old style TP sized 7 round P grip. Same gun, same 4" barrel, same capacity but much lighter than a hybrid K/T9.

Not really familiar with the TP, so I'd need to study up on them. Also did not know that Kahr once made them as 7 rounders. I do prefer steel, though. I actually like the weight for shooting. I would use an IWB holster with a decent belt, so I'm not worried about the extra weight. Might as well look at the T9 as well. I looked at one previously and compared it side by side with the K9. The K9 filled my hand perfectly. The T9 grip was longer than my hand width, and a good bit of the grip protruded below my hand, so I went with the K9.

[Streetkahr]

Dang, I was hoping that they used the same internals and frame design. The more I shoot the T9 the more I like it, and once I have the grips modified I think it will be my perfect carry piece. I notice the edges of the wood digging into my ribs a little bit sometimes, and I found that I had a checker patterned indent on my side the other day after a full day of wearing it without tucking in my under shirt. I thought about a P9 when I got my CW9, but every time I go to the range and I take both guns, I find myself shooting the T9 exclusively. The CW just sits in my speedvault next to the bed. It may be time to replace it with a PM45, I really want to shoot a Kahr in .45ACP.

I should shoot a T9 sometime and check it out. Really like the Novak sights they have. Maybe I can find a range that has a T9 as a rental, but that might be quite a search.

[ripley16]

Personally I don't feel a discernible difference in shooting impression between the K and T. If you like one, you'll probably like the other. For that matter I can't tell much difference between the TP and the T. You'd think the T would be softer but that's not my impression. They're more alike than different IMHO.

[Streetkahr]

Personally I don't feel a discernible difference in shooting impression between the K and T. If you like one, you'll probably like the other. For that matter I can't tell much difference between the TP and the T. You'd think the T would be softer but that's not my impression. They're more alike than different IMHO.

Do you notice any accuracy improvement or shooting speed with the T9 due to the longer sight radius and different sights?

[Dreams_of_Steel]

My T9 has the standard i-dot sights instead of the Novaks. I have been thinking about getting the XS night sight system since it is very similar to the factory ones, I have never been a big fan of 3 dot or combat style sights. If you were anywhere near me Streetkahr, I would gladly let you put as many rounds through my T9 as you liked. I handled a TP9 at the last gun show I went to and really liked the feel, but I'm a steel frame lover. The added weight makes recoil almost disappear and it just feels right when I hold it.

[ripley16]

Do you notice any accuracy improvement or shooting speed with the T9 due to the longer sight radius and different sights?

I shot them about the same. The T9 came with MMC 3 dot target sights and the K9 came with Mepro night sights. Nor is there any difference I can tell in side by side polymer versus steel. My personal preference is for the TP, perhaps because it has a grip sleeve that makes it more comfortable. The T9 trigger guard actually irritated the inside of my middle finger, near the first joint.

They are all nice shooting guns.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Kahr/Kahrgroup001-1.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ripley16/media/Pistols/Kahr/Kahrgroup001-1.jpg.html)

[Streetkahr]

My T9 has the standard i-dot sights instead of the Novaks. I have been thinking about getting the XS night sight system since it is very similar to the factory ones, I have never been a big fan of 3 dot or combat style sights. If you were anywhere near me Streetkahr, I would gladly let you put as many rounds through my T9 as you liked. I handled a TP9 at the last gun show I went to and really liked the feel, but I'm a steel frame lover. The added weight makes recoil almost disappear and it just feels right when I hold it.

I am also a fan of steel, and I also do not like 3-dot sights. I have to focus on the rear sights first and then shift focus to the front sight to get everything lined up, probably because I am nearsighted. I have the same problem with the night sights that came on my K9. I think they are Novak. The sights are pretty small and so are the luminous dots, but I have been working on only focusing on the front sight and letting the rear dots stay a little fuzzy. Oddly enough, when I do that, the rear dots seem to spread apart. Strange. I think I would be a little faster with the K9 i-dots because I can focus on the front sight and the rear bar just appears to be part of the front sight. It's weird. None of this will happen with the longer sight radius of a 4" or longer barrel and the rear and front sight remain crisp and clear, so I am thinking I might be faster with a T9. I would take you up on your offer to try your T9, but I am in Atlanta, unfortunately. I have read some comments online from people who tried the XS Big Dot front sight but took them off because it made them shoot low. Something to do with the large size of the dot, but it does not happen to everyone.

[Streetkahr]

I shot them about the same. The T9 came with MMC 3 dot target sights and the K9 came with Mepro night sights. Nor is there any difference I can tell in side by side polymer versus steel. My personal preference is for the TP, perhaps because it has a grip sleeve that makes it more comfortable. The T9 trigger guard actually irritated the inside of my middle finger, near the first joint.

They are all nice shooting guns.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Kahr/Kahrgroup001-1.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ripley16/media/Pistols/Kahr/Kahrgroup001-1.jpg.html)

Thanks for the reply. Good to know. My K9 has a sharp trigger guard too. My hands are small, though, so I don't contact the trigger guard, fortunately. Also sharp are the slide serrations and the bottom of the slide release. I will do something about the sharp spots eventually.

Still kind of wondering if the longer sight radius of the T9 might work better with my aging near sighted eyes. Maybe I will get a chance to shoot a T9. Until then, I will not part with my K9. I loved the BHP, and SP 101 revolvers. The K9 is like the ultimate marriage between the two, at least it works for me.

[Dreams_of_Steel]

If I do get the XS sights I will be getting the small dot set, not the big dot. I love the GI blade sights on my el cheapo 1911, I seem to shoot better and have faster follow ups with them than just about everything else I own. The T9 is cake work for followups and is ridiculously accurate in all but the fastest of high speed drills, and I'm sure that's due to the long reset on the trigger. Too bad we're so far apart, I'd love to shoot the K9 and T9 side by side sometime.

[Streetkahr]

If I do get the XS sights I will be getting the small dot set, not the big dot. I love the GI blade sights on my el cheapo 1911, I seem to shoot better and have faster follow ups with them than just about everything else I own. The T9 is cake work for followups and is ridiculously accurate in all but the fastest of high speed drills, and I'm sure that's due to the long reset on the trigger. Too bad we're so far apart, I'd love to shoot the K9 and T9 side by side sometime.

I didn't know about the XS small dots, or the sets. The only XS sight I ever saw was the Big Dot front sight only. I think the night sites on my K9 are actually Mepros, and I think the whole set is too small for fast work, but I think I will shoot an IDPA match with the K9 for a better impression. I would like to replace the sight set, but I will need to do my homework. Yes, I would love to shoot the K9 next to a T9. I am thinking I might do better with the longer sight radius of the T9 and my aging nearsighted eyes. My chances of finding one in a LGS to check it out is ziltch. The K9 here is very even rare, and I bought the second one I ever saw. This is polymer country. Not me. Give me old school steel with a grip I can get all three fingers on and draw fast, a good belt and IWB holster, and I am good to go. There is just no time to get an itty bitty pistol with an itty bitty grip out of a pocket fast enough. I have been attacked enough times to know what happens. I think most people buying tiny polymer pistols are using them as a magic talisman, have never been attacked, and rarely shoot them. Most are probably never broken in. Try exploding off the X and hitting 4 targets really fast with one of those tiny polymer pistols. A whole generation has missed out on the stunning blueing on old BHP's, old commercial Colt 1911's, Colt revolvers, and those wonderful pinned barrel S&W revolvers, and their unbelievable smoothness once you got them right. I guess you could include the old CZ75 pistols from the 80's. A quote comes to mind from the first Star Wars film regarding the lightsaber, "An elegant weapon for a more elegant age." That age passed about 30 years ago, and everything seems to be cheap, butt ugly polymer tacticool. However, there are many of us that remember when weapons were elegant, beautiful, hand fitted, and deadly..like a Japanese sword. We can still buy those weapons. They just cost a lot more. To me, the all steel Kahrs are a niche return to that elegant age, lost to those focused on polymer.

Ferro Veritas, In Steel There Is Truth

[Dreams_of_Steel]

Ferro Veritas, In Steel There Is Truth
I LOVE that! Maybe I was born a generation or 2 too late as well, being 34 but having a strong affinity to steel frames. Even the alloy frame 1911's and other pistols just don't appeal to me nearly as much as steel. I love the feel of it, the weight gives me confidence and just feels right. There's also something very comforting about feeling the weight while on my belt. I never forget my T9 is there, and it keeps me aware that it's there if I need it.

[Streetkahr]

I LOVE that! Maybe I was born a generation or 2 too late as well, being 34 but having a strong affinity to steel frames. Even the alloy frame 1911's and other pistols just don't appeal to me nearly as much as steel. I love the feel of it, the weight gives me confidence and just feels right. There's also something very comforting about feeling the weight while on my belt. I never forget my T9 is there, and it keeps me aware that it's there if I need it.

Yes, and steel is more pleasant to shoot. I think I got Ferro Veritas from the sword community, and I thought it applied very well to handguns, so I have been using it. You might also like the Riddle of Steel: "Daddy, why do you shoot your big metal gun better than your little plastic gun?" Sorry, couldn't resist!

[DavidR]

That is a sweet collection. The K9 has been calling to me for some time. Are the grip panels hard plastic or are they "grippy"?


I shot them about the same. The T9 came with MMC 3 dot target sights and the K9 came with Mepro night sights. Nor is there any difference I can tell in side by side polymer versus steel. My personal preference is for the TP, perhaps because it has a grip sleeve that makes it more comfortable. The T9 trigger guard actually irritated the inside of my middle finger, near the first joint.

They are all nice shooting guns.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Kahr/Kahrgroup001-1.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ripley16/media/Pistols/Kahr/Kahrgroup001-1.jpg.html)

[ripley16]

That is a sweet collection. The K9 has been calling to me for some time. Are the grip panels hard plastic or are they "grippy"?

I have three grips for the K9; wood, Crimson Trace laser and the original soft polymer, which is a tough, dense material yet quite "grippy"