Cw380 point of impact increasing with distance

[Fedupmech]

Hello,
First I'll start with this. I really like this gun a lot. I have several other guns. Have approx. 1000 rounds through it. It functions good as far as feeding and locking back. Shot many different brands of ammo through it. A few problems in the beginning, which is fairly normal for these guns. This subject has been brought up before. From day one, this gun shoots low. So I thought. In actuality it shoots dead on at very close range, approx. 3yds. Moving targets further back, it starts to shoot low, depending on distance, in other words the further back, the lower it shoots. I decided to put some CT380 rear sights on, which should put the point of aim to point of impact. BTW those original sights are a bear to remove. Recently went to an outdoor range and had a lot of time and ammo to really test the sights out and find out what is going on. I started bench resting each shot at very close range approx. 3yds. Put all six rounds in the bullseye, almost the same hole. Started moving target back about 3 to 4 ft. Each time bench resting, I'm not perfect, I did have a couple of flyers occasionally while doing this, but put at least 4 out of 6 rds grouped nicely together. Windage is right on, however elevation started to change. It started shooting high every time. Moved target back 3 to 4 ft each time. All the groups were right on and each time the point of impact is getting higher and higher. By the time I got to approx. 9 to 10 yds, the point of impact is about 10 to 12 inches high. Didn't have a tape measure. Just a good guestimate. I realize these are close range guns but it shouldn't do that. Not at those distances. I know some will say that I'm just pulling my shots. Like I said, I gouped at least 4 out of 6 together. The only thing that I can physically see is that dry firing it with a magazine in it, the barrel and slide moves a little. I understand that, that is normal with these guns. While dry firing it with a mag in it and just putting my thumb on back of slide, pulling the trigger it doesn't move at all. It seems this slight movement of the slide is causing the gun to shoot high. As the distance to target increases the point of impact moves higher and higher. What I didn't realize was with the original sights, it was doing the same thing, just opposite, shooting lower and lower with distance. I called Kahr today and they gave me a Return Authorization #. It's on my dime to send it back though. What I would really like to know is. Does anybody else have this issue? It seems to me that something has to be wrong with the gun. Like I said, many different types of ammo, and I have let other people shoot it too. When I put the new taller rear sights on. I started using a 6:00 hold. To me that's better than putting the front sight way above rear sight with the original. Then I realized what was happening. Anybody else experienced this?

[Bawanna]

I'm ignorant of 380 ballistics but all bullets do have trajectory.

The fact that it's 10" high at only 9 or 10 yards seems like a lot.

It would seem that you'd be pretty close to center out at 25 yards or somewhat beyond.

I personally try to have my carry guns sighted in at 7 yards. Then adjust as necessary for closer or further away.

The from day one comment about shooting low is very common. Even experienced shooters shooting Kahrs for the first time have a tendency to shoot low and usually low left for a right hand person.
It's getting used to the trigger.

Since your bench resting it would seem your eliminating that possibility. You don't mention your sight hold, my PM45 I kind of cover the bull rather than a six oclock hold as some of the others are set for.

Oh I take that back, you do mention your hold there at the end. Now I'm perplexed.

[muggsy]

From a trajectory table for a 90 gr. .380 auto with a muzzle velocity of 1,000 fps. with a maximum point blank range of 96 yards, @ 25 yards +2.3", @ 50 yards +2.9" and @ 100 yards, -3.5". I don't believe that the problem you are experiencing is due to the sights. It could be due to a bad barrel and it wouldn't hurt to have Kahr look at your gun. It's more likely to be the fault of the shooter. I say this with no offense intended toward you. A. small handguns with a short sight radius and a long double action trigger pull isn't the easiest to master and they will certainly reveal any shooting technique faults.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm

[Fedupmech]

I appreciate your responses. As I mentioned in my post. It did shoot low with the original rear sight installed. I put the taller CT380 rear sight on, and now it is doing the opposite, shooting high. What I failed to realize early on was that up close it was right on. The sight picture, point of impact. As the distance increased, It was shooting, impacting lower and lower. I put the taller rear ones on and now the exact opposite is happening. Hope I'm explaining this logically. My question is: Has anybody else experienced this?

[wyntrout]

A taller rear sight will raise the point of impact and a taller front sight will lower the POI. That's why sights should be matched sets, unless you're trying to change the POI with respect to the POA... point of aim.

I've had several used pistols with mismatched sets of sights... always shot low... which can really suck... not being able to sight on your target! I corrected them as require... replacement usually, but once was able to reduce the front sight height on an S&W 645... wasn't pretty, though, but POA=POI when I got through and it worked for me. :)

Wynn

[berettabone]

I have an MK, and I've found that with the standard ball and tee sights.................at 3 yds. I cover the bull, at 7 yds. I cover the bull, at 25 yds. I cover the bull.................but each time I do, I allow a bit more distance between the two sights to compensate. When I first acquired the firearm, I was shooting low consistently, until I started covering the bull.

[SlowBurn]

It could be due to a bad barrel and it wouldn't hurt to have Kahr look at your gun. It's more likely to be the fault of the shooter.

Good point. Could get somebody else to shoot, see if results are the same. Might save that shipping charge. If they get same effect, send it.

[Fedupmech]

I have let other people shoot it. They had the same result. Up close, 3 yards, right on. As the target gets moved further back point of impact goes higher and higher. I didn't mention this but I also have a crimson trace laserguard installed. It's sighted in at approx. 5 yards. Using only the laser, ignoring the sight picture, I can consistently hit where the laser is. I'm not perfect, there are some flyers occasionally. My feeling is that the slide movement during the trigger pull is causing the point of impact to change with distance. That's the only thing I can come up with. As I understand it, Kahr's do move some during the trigger pull. Mine maybe more than normal. The gun is in battery before each shot, that small movement during the trigger pull doesn't effect it too much at very close range but as the distance to target increases that movement gets amplified. That's the only thing I can come up with. Barring some frame or barrel issue. I have inspected the gun as best I can. Don't see any obvious defects. Thanks for the help.

[jocko]

From a trajectory table for a 90 gr. .380 auto with a muzzle velocity of 1,000 fps. with a maximum point blank range of 96 yards, @ 25 yards +2.3", @ 50 yards +2.9" and @ 100 yards, -3.5". I don't believe that the problem you are experiencing is due to the sights. It could be due to a bad barrel and it wouldn't hurt to have Kahr look at your gun. It's more likely to be the fault of the shooter. I say this with no offense intended toward you. A. small handguns with a short sight radius and a long double action trigger pull isn't the easiest to master and they will certainly reveal any shooting technique faults.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm

I would be very surprised to think the barrel is bad. These ain't tgarget guns, and not sure what kind of exact accuracy one is wanting either. I would buy a half dozen snap caps and have someone throw some in with ur loaded rounds and load your magazine for you. this will show first hand if the shooter is doing anything wrong,. When u don't knbow a snap cap is there, thatis when things go haywire that normlly u do't realize when the bang thing happens. Anticipation of the bang thing happens and u don't even know it. Letting anutter shooter try it ight help but again. it takes time and rounds to get used these smallass gun. No real grip to hang on to, and I would certainly suggest staying at 7 yards ad not worrying about 25 yards, and aybe just trying POA shootinbg , seeing the front site only. trhe front site is ur friend, the rear site will fallin place and believe me if a SHTF situation occurs ur noot gonna be using the sites. get used to being fast and keeping all ur groups inside one of those big ass FBI bowling pin silhouette. If u can keep u in therre u good to go.

I would be surprised if kahr will issue a pre paid pickupon ur gun also for what ur saying. U changed the sites from low to now high and the reuslts have changed, so IMO it could be shooter related, not criticising u, just stating what I Know from reading your comment.

[Fedupmech]

One question. While dry firing a CW380 with an empty mag in, slowly, very slowly pulling the trigger, my slide/barrel "upper" moves back and forward approx. 1/16 of an inch. Is that normal? I've watched a view videos on youtube on the cw380 and didn't notice that much movement at all. I think that is what's causing the problem.

[TimtheRef]

Jocko made a good point, if you're using the P380 or CW380 in a defensive situation, you're more likely to be using point and shoot without sights techniques. If you're not already practicing this way, maybe incorporate some into your drills. I always start my trips to the range by practicing shooting without use of sights, as this is more realistic in a real defensive situation.

[Fedupmech]

Replaced my inner and outer recoil springs. Only had approx. 1000 rounds through it. It made a huge difference in dry firing it. No slide, "upper" movement at all when trigger pulled. The new inner one was about an inch longer than the old, the outer was only a little longer, maybe 1/4 inch or less. Guess I need to order a couple of sets of springs to have on hand. I wouldn't think that just the springs would affect my other problem????

[Ikeo74]

I have let other people shoot it. They had the same result. Up close, 3 yards, right on. As the target gets moved further back point of impact goes higher and higher. I didn't mention this but I also have a crimson trace laserguard installed. It's sighted in at approx. 5 yards. Using only the laser, ignoring the sight picture, I can consistently hit where the laser is. I'm not perfect, there are some flyers occasionally. My feeling is that the slide movement during the trigger pull is causing the point of impact to change with distance. That's the only thing I can come up with. As I understand it, Kahr's do move some during the trigger pull. Mine maybe more than normal. The gun is in battery before each shot, that small movement during the trigger pull doesn't effect it too much at very close range but as the distance to target increases that movement gets amplified. That's the only thing I can come up with. Barring some frame or barrel issue. I have inspected the gun as best I can. Don't see any obvious defects. Thanks for the help.
It is basic knowledge: Lower the rear sight and the gun tilts downward and shots low. Raise the rear sight, the gun tilts upward and shoots high. You overcompensated the height of the rear sight too high, the trajectory of the bullet gets higher the farther it travels until gravity finally pulls it down. To correct the problem lower the rear sight again, or change the way you position the front sight in the rear sight notch when you line up to shoot. Every gun in the world will do the same thing. Option 2: Install a new higher front sight.

[berettabone]

I have an MK, and I've found that with the standard ball and tee sights.................at 3 yds. I cover the bull, at 7 yds. I cover the bull, at 25 yds. I cover the bull.................but each time I do, I allow a bit more distance between the two sights to compensate. When I first acquired the firearm, I was shooting low consistently, until I started covering the bull.

+++++++++++++++1

[Fedupmech]

Thanks for all the advice and info. Sometimes common sense isn't my strong suit. I replaced both inner and outer recoil springs. That fixed the upper movement when pulling the trigger. I took it to the range today. Indoor range this time, much easier to see the Crimson trace laser. The laser seems to be sighted in at approx 5-6 yds. I did as you suggested. Simply adjusted the front sight lower. The gun works great. Have always enjoyed shooting it. Just wish the sights were like my other guns. I have two glocks with trijicon HD nightsights. Thinking about purchasing the trijicons on kahrs website. Just don't want the same issue. With the factory Cw 380 front and rear sights and lining it up normal it shot low. It's always bothered me. I'll find a matched set maybe trijicons. Hopefully that will resolve my issue. I did get a free rental today. Got to shoot a glock 43. Very nice. I love the little kahr. Great pocket gun. Thanks again.


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