You need a red dot for your shotgun? Really? For home defense?

[CJB]

I saw this issue on another forum.

Guy gets himself a pistol grip shotty, 12g, with 18.5 inch barrel and extended mag that just protrudes from the end of the barrel. I dunno , wassat hold..... 6 shot total?

So, he's got a single point sling, a forward grip, a shell carrier, and now wants a red dot optical sight - all for home defense. Gonna sit it between his bed and nightstand.

And I'm thinin' to myself.... really... you need all that? You can't hit a bull in the backside at room or hallway distance without any of that? You can't hit 'em, but you got the time to activate the sight and get aquisition on a moving subject?

Is there a sub genre of mall ninja thats known as the home ninja? I mean to each his own choice of poison, but this seems a bit over the top to me.

[OldFatGuy]

Yea, sounds pretty stupid. Guess he just wants to piss away money and impress his friends.

[b4uqzme]

When it comes to home defense shotguns, the simpler the better IMHO. A couple of extra rounds makes sense. But I don't even want a pistol grip as a conventional stock is a natural pointer. But we all gotta spend our money... :D

[Planedude]

Call me old school, But I'm just an old man, with old shotgun and an old world attitude that breaking into my house in the middle of the night is the last thing you should ever do...

[Barth]

I can easily hip shoot my pistol grip 12 gauge Mossy 500, loaded with slugs and hit someone across a room.
Blown apart mannequins like that with style on private property.

[AJBert]

I believe the term is "tacti-cool" for all the add ons these days. There is nothing functional about most of the crap on the market but it makes the "shooter" look cool in their own eyes.

[DavidR]

Is it okay if I add a sling to my Mossberg 500? [emoji15]


Dave

[b4uqzme]

Is it okay if I add a sling to my Mossberg 500? [emoji15]


Dave

You go right ahead there Dave. Enjoy! I think CJB's example crossed the line with the sight since shotguns are point and shoot firearms by definition. That makes all the stuff seem sorta silly. But there's something to be said for add-ons that make sense. One of these days I'm gonna assemble a gun similar to yours: take an 870 youth .20 gauge and add a mag extension and a light. It'll have a wood stock so nobody can accuse me of being tacticool. ;)

[CJB]

Hey I got no problem with a sling. I put slings on almost all my long guns, and truth be told, my two Remmy 870 riot guns have slings, but not for home use, as I can't see marchin' around the domicile or accompanying landholdings with 'em. By way of explanation, I got them when I spent a lot of time in even deeper woods, on horseback or ATV, and they were handy camp and carry around guns, which we all had great fun with.

Normally.... I don't think a sling is needed for a home defense gun... too likely to get hung up on something, ya know? Even if that something is me!!

I can see "maybe" a laser sight....but really... you need that on a shotty? Crap, if shot #1 just wing's em a little, go for shot #2, #3, etc. until the threat is neutralized.

[Bobshouse]

A red dot on a shotgun? Sure! You are not supposed to "aim" a shotgun, but a red dot helps you "point". Lots of guys use them on the trap and skeet fields. But, again, why the heck would you want to practice with a shotgun? a .45? or even a 9mm? We all know you don't need to practice, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger.

[CJB]

General direction being within about a half body's width from dead center....

[Bobshouse]

For example, my home defense weapon.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g42/parlier61/tOOManyLights3.jpg

[CJB]

How do you get the pig onto that rotisserie?

[Bobshouse]

Don't see no rotisserie, but I tell ya, it throws enough light to take paint off a wall....lol

[b4uqzme]

A red dot on a shotgun? Sure! You are not supposed to "aim" a shotgun, but a red dot helps you "point". Lots of guys use them on the trap and skeet fields. But, again, why the heck would you want to practice with a shotgun? a .45? or even a 9mm? We all know you don't need to practice, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger.

Yep! Just shot skeet yesterday with a guy who had an Aimpoint on his Perozzi. :rolleyes:

[Armybrat]

Hey, thought I was being "tacti cool" putting a 5 round stock sock on my old H&R Topper 12 Gauge (19" barrel), and a cheap slip-on recoil pad. It was my truck gun back in the '90s. Had a pistol grip on the Winchester Defender (8 sot), but didn't like it and put the wood stock back on - it's my under the bed gun.

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w349/ScoPro/moreguns.jpg

[addictedhealer]

My 12 gauge has a side saddle from SKD tac holds extra 00 and slugs. I added the 20" barrel and extended mag tube from brownells. Now it holds 7+1 and has rifle sights. Perfect just like is.

I don't even have a red dot on my AR... Yet!

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/06/bc52fb4fb71e96d8cc9c08f8889058f2.jpg


-Adam.

[Longitude Zero]

Even a shotty needs to be aimed. Those that pontificate they can point a shotgun without the sights and have a reasonable chance of hitting a target are laughable at bests. To say a shotgun is a "point and shoot" weapon are unaware of proper tactical shooting. I have seen/investigated many legal and illegal shooting with a shotty. The are NOT the magical point more or less in the proper direction and the load will hit the target, far from it. Misses are just as common as hits even in average room sized encounters. In the average room the "shot" will not substantialy expand in diameter much more than the bore of the weapon.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ I'll disagree with you there LZ although I'm sure your investigations are valid. But I suspect those misses are attributed to shooters who can't point or got too excited to point. Once you learn how to shoulder a shotgun, you will hit what you are looking at. Ask any clays shooter. Admittedly, you need to learn how to shoulder a shotgun and practice. I guess many never do that. But if you are recommending sights over practice, then so be it. IMHO point shooting with any firearm is an advantage in self defense. Assuming you've practiced.

[Longitude Zero]

When you "shoulder" the weapon its accuracy improves but is not perfection even bird hunters are generally no better than 85% shooters at best, even when looking directly at the moving target. Even the late Tom Knapp, who is probably the greatest shotgunner to have ever lived, missed on occasion. When you shoot from the hip you are just guessing and in most cases you are guessing wrong. Pistol gripped shotguns are IMHO a pretty poor weapon selection and a handgun is preferable. Also if you make the mistake of letting the bad guy get close enough, and it happens frequently, to grab the shotgun it is an almost certainty you will lose control of the weapon. The one area ALL civilian shooters need huge education and practice with is weapon retention and recovery.

[CPTKILLER]

I killed enemy in Vietnam without red dot sights, night vision, or weapon lights. It is all training and attention to detail and knowing your weapon very well.

[b4uqzme]

When you "shoulder" the weapon its accuracy improves but is not perfection even bird hunters are generally no better than 85% shooters at best, even when looking directly at the moving target. Even the late Tom Knapp, who is probably the greatest shotgunner to have ever lived, missed on occasion. When you shoot from the hip you are just guessing and in most cases you are guessing wrong. Pistol gripped shotguns are IMHO a pretty poor weapon selection and a handgun is preferable. Also if you make the mistake of letting the bad guy get close enough, and it happens frequently, to grab the shotgun it is an almost certainty you will lose control of the weapon. The one area ALL civilian shooters need huge education and practice with is weapon retention and recovery.

You are correct sir. I realize we are talking different disciplines. And you certainly trump me regarding SD situations. I do feel confident that, if I can hit a clay pigeon traveling 50-60 mph at 50 yards 85% of the time...without sights, that I can hit a man-sized target at 5 yards every time...without sights. And there is definitely more time to shoulder the weapon vs. aiming any sort of sight should trouble come charging. Shouldering is automatic once you've practiced. There will be no red dot on my shotguns. :) And there will be no shooting from the hip either. ;) And while I too have a handgun only at my bedside, there are good reasons to keep a shotgun for SD also.

Thanks.

[b4uqzme]

I killed enemy in Vietnam without red dot sights, night vision, or weapon lights. It is all training and attention to detail and knowing your weapon very well.

Well said and thank-you for your service to our country.

[TheTman]

I've seen a friend shoot a perfect round of Sporting Clays 100 out of 100, using a red dot, he rarely misses more than once or twice out of 100. A bad day for him is a 95. That is about the only place I see a use a red dot on a shotgun. His shotgun is an old Remington 1100, that has a cheek rest affixed with electrical tape, and it looks like something he cobbled together out of parts, which he might have. I love it when a stranger shoots with us, and chuckles when he sees this guy's gun, you know he's thinking that he's shooting against some hick. It's nice to see some guys with their $1500 or more shotguns humbled a little bit after the course.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ honestly that's the LAST place I'd expect to see a red dot. But it obviously works for him.

[Bawanna]

I think we've lost track in terminology here. With a rifle up to your shoulder you aim, with a shotgun you point. Very close to the same thing but pointing isn't quite as precise perhaps but your still focusing your aim.

Some suffer the misconception that a shot shell fired at a wall 10 ft away will scatter pellets in a 10 ft circle. This is not the case even with birdshot and a open choke.

Firing a shotgun even from the hip with decent accuracy isn't terribly difficult but it'm much more efficient and the likelyhood of success is much much better from the shoulder.

I know a State Trooper who used to just stand in between stations on the trap range with the butt of his shotgun on his toe. If somebody missed he's flip the gun up with his foot and break the bird near every time, sometimes from the hip, usually from the shoulder, but he was exceptionally talented.
He shot a round of Skeet with my old Mossberg 500 after I did so poorly, he scored 19 as I recall, shooting the gun upside down, damn show off if you ask me.

[anarchy187]

I got a ksg with a flashlight. It will get the job done and have plenty of shells left over for cleanup.

[RRP]

I got a ksg with a flashlight.

The KSG comes without sights. This is a prime example of a home defense shotgun greatly enhanced by a RDS.

[CJB]

What the Colonel said....

From my own experience, shooting buck, or 7-1/2 or 8 target loads... my two 870 riot guns, and the KSG, and the Serbu, which all have clyinder choke, will toss about an inch and a half at 10 feet.

Its not the pattern, or lack thereof, that irks me. Ya just oughta be able to hit a BG with a long gun, or most handguns, at 10 to 12 feet, without really trying all that hard and with only basic practice. Long gun being shotty, or rifle.

And from my own experience, the "spreader" tube for the old Cutts Compensator was sort of interesting, not quite blunderbuss in shape. Playing with extended chokes, my experience says the best spread is with a cylinder bore, or even spreader, but... one that has castellations or serrations on the exit end. I think what's going on is the variable release of the gasses just drives havoc with the shot staying cohesive. The Remy tactical choke I have, for breeching and such, has serrations, and it tosses a nice about 3 inches of 7-1/2 at roughly ten feet, just over double of what cyl. bore will do.

[AJBert]

As for shooting from the hip, practice is needed to get what you think your poa is compared to poi. I can almost guarantee that everyone that tries it will shoot low. Not necessarily a bad thing when shooting at a BG. It does take some practice if one ever thinks they might need that little trick in their bag sometime down the road.

Plus, shooting a Tommy from the shoulder takes a bit of muscle and doesn't look as ****** as shooting from the hip! But, we are talking shotties but the same principle applies.

[Bawanna]

I'd venture that some would have trouble getting the Tommy to the shoulder even. It's shocking how heavy these things really are.

The old movies make them look like they are plastic, not so.