Squib! Update 01-22-2016

[wyntrout]

Well... I had ONE malfunction testing the new Trijicon HD Night Sights on my G30S. It wasn't the pistol, but the ammo... Federal Champion 100-round Value Pack from Wal-Mart.

I was shooting and then I had one round with no report just a sound like spitting... with no recoil or fire. I watched the video many times and could detect no fire or smoke... or no noise other than a loud click. I had earplugs and muffs on, but heard something like a phfft... a spitting sound, but in the video there's just the loud click. I also felt debris hit my face, but not painful and no marks.

I knew something was wrong and as much as WE have talked about checking the barrel for obstruction after a malfunction, I knew that the barrel would be blocked... and it was.

100-round box from Wal-Mart:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/IMG_6735.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/IMG_6740.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/IMG_6739.jpg



http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/IMG_6741.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/IMG_6744.jpg

One of the guys at the range used a steel punch and then a LONG Allen wrench to drive the bullet on through the barrel. It took several minutes. The barrel wasn't hurt and I haven't inspected the pistol, yet, but I will completely strip the pistol, especially the slide and check for any damage.

I really don't understand what happened... light load and ruptured case or normal load and case rupture with no high pressure??? There was no bang... no flash or smoke... strange.

I used some Tetra oil and a patch to clean the barrel and lubricate it, then I ran a dry patch through several times and pressed on with the shooting... probably another 40+ rounds with no problems.

That brings me up to about 440 rounds with just the one ammo problem.

I'll post some more on my birthday post when I have a chance.

Overall, I was pleased with the new sights and don't need to adjust them... just learn better trigger discipline.

Wynn :)

[Manzanita]

Whoa. That brass looks rough. Looking at the opening, I'd almost guess it had a preexisting crack that wasn't noticeable.

[DanTana]

I remember having a squib round once in a shotgun, luckily it still pushed the wad out about 5 feet out of the barrel, but thinking back on it was actually pretty funny. I heard this funny pop and the wad coming out almost in slow motion. The bolt on my 1100 didn't even go back far enough to eject the spent case. It was from a reload, in the 1000's and 1000's of rounds we've reloaded that was the only squib I can remember. Posness Warren reloader can crank out the shells.

[wyntrout]

I was really shocked that there was no indication on the video. It could have been dry firing... no flash, smoke or any sound other than the click. I had hoped to have a video to post, but nothing at all... even frame by frame over and over.

I'll detail the slide when I get a chance. It was running fine for about 50 more rounds after the incident. My carry for the day was my PM45 in case something happened, so I could use the same ammo.

No harm seems to have been done.

Wynn :)

[CPTKILLER]

Bad. Glad you caught it.

[Bobshouse]

I'd save the bullet and the brass and give Federal a call. They will want to test the powder residue to ensure it wasn't a reload, but they will make it good by repairing or replacing damaged parts. They will probably offer you 10 boxes of ammo for your trouble...that's 500 chances it will happen again!

[Bawanna]

I remember having a squib round once in a shotgun, luckily it still pushed the wad out about 5 feet out of the barrel, but thinking back on it was actually pretty funny. I heard this funny pop and the wad coming out almost in slow motion. The bolt on my 1100 didn't even go back far enough to eject the spent case. It was from a reload, in the 1000's and 1000's of rounds we've reloaded that was the only squib I can remember. Posness Warren reloader can crank out the shells.

Ponsness Warren rocks, I have a single stage and a progressive. Loaded a lot of shells.

I wonder if there wasn't any powder at all in that case Wynn? Seems like any powder at all would have at least cleared the barrel. Almost did anyhow. Bad case probably contributed too, lost some of the pressure out the back.

[340pd]

I drive out about one squib per month at the range I work at. 99.9% of the time it is a reloader.

Note to all.

Keep a 8-12" BRASS rod from Home Depot or local hardware store in your range bag. Using a hammer to pound a steel rod down a barrel can make a mess if not done correctly.

[wyntrout]

The case was very blackened and must have been defective from the odd rupture. I think that a full load of powder would have to have made a bit of smoke and fire, but nothing in the video... just my yanking the pistol downward in a poor dry fire... anticipation or whatever... pretty pronounced. I have a wide range of "techniques" to keep from getting the bullets congregated near the center of the target.

Wynn :(

[wyntrout]

Here are frame stills from just before trigger pull plus 4 more frames. Notice the slide is thrust forward and down. :D

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/G30S%20FC%20Squib%201%20of%205.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/G30S%20FC%20Squib%202%20of%205.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/G30S%20FC%20Squib%203%20of%205.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/G30S%20FC%20Squib%205%20of%205.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/G30S%20FC%20Squib%204%20of%205.jpg

[Ikeo74]

Makes me wonder if the bullet was not 45 cal (the projectile, not the case), but some other larger caliber. I think I would measure and weigh it to see if you can tell.

From the looks of the case you may be lucky the gun didn't blow up.

[wyntrout]

Perplexing is the all sound and no fury... sound being the large "click".

Wynn :)

[wyntrout]

Here are two frames of the shot preceding the squib. The flash and report from the Federal Champion 230-gr FMJ is pretty loud, bright, and concussive. The guy to the right of me sounded like he was shooting 10mm or something, but he was shooting the same ammo in an XDS.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/Shot%20preceding%20squib%201%20of%202.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m620/wyntrout/2015%20July%2007%20Squib%20at%20range%20with%20G30 S/Shot%20preceding%20squib%202%20of%202.jpg

If there had been a full load... or much of a load at all of powder, there would have to have been some evidence... smoke or flash, but I felt a bit of stuff hit my face and heard the "click". That was it.

[getsome]

Wow Wyn, glad you caught it and didn't get hurt or blow up you pistol....I've only experienced one squib with Walmart Winchester WWB and it almost ended up with a blown up gun but thank God the bullet didn't get far enough down the barrel to allow another round to chamber and it ended with a FTF and a lot of work to get the squib bullet punched out of the barrel...

I would get with the Federal folks and let them look at it and see what they will do for you....I have never had a problem with Federal ammo but don't use their range ammo in .45 acp because they use a small primer and it drives me crazy trying to seperate it out of a batch of brass to be reloaded....

[Bawanna]

I actually like the small primers, our dept range ammo is all small primer. Now when I can't find large primers I got it covered with small.
The small seems to load smoother and easier on my setup too for some reason.

Sorting is always a pain no matter what, after awhile large and small look the same too.

[ltxi]

Case blowout and bullet stuck in the barrel. My first thought would be defective case....especially give the pics of the immediate last round show normal muzzle blast.

[CJB]

This was not so much a case blowout as a damaged case.

Here's the scenario....

The case was manufactured perfectly. Cases are not formed on same line as assembly. The case would have never made it up the vibratory ramp at the end of the case forming line, if it was defective. It made it up the ramp, and got into the assembly process. I'll leave out the details about tumbling, Somehow, during assembly, and likely at the charging spot, something happened. The case didn't get charged, but got slightly folded. Maybe there were a few granules of powder in it... could be, but not even close to a real charge. The bullet got seated on the now damaged case and... it the cartridge got a huge whollop from the taper crimp die, which in commercial loading is actually more of a "conformity" die. Think in terms of yet another full length resize, just less extreme. The idea is to iron out everything from a wrinkly case to an oversize bullet. The cartridge got packed, and you got a defective round, that had a damaged case and little or no charge.

The rest is history.

There was no blowout. Blowouts are spectacular in every instance.... You'd have blown the magazine out of the pistol at least, and at worst wrecked the frame. Not uncommon for a Colt .45 auto to blow its grips off, same with a Browning HP, or Smith 39/59, or CZ etc. Sometimes... that wrecked frame is bent, or has a piece blown out the bottom. Somehow... the shooter is rarely hurt badly, especially if they have eye protection. The shooters hands are sometimes bruised, or burnt some. You just don't see major damage there (almost none). They eyes... get blasted by crap.

Oh.... I think Federal would want to see that cartridge's remains... big time.

[wyntrout]

The images are the relevant frames from the video... from just prior to trigger let off through my push into the expected recoil trigger pull. The frame is fully forward at the start, as is the last two images of the round prior to the squib.


I just cleaned the pistol and stripped the slide as well. I saw no damage anywhere and the bore and chamber were clean as well.


That must have been just the primer or a very light powder charge. I don't know if the primer alone could start the bullet down the barrel. The case rupture and where and how it ruptured without any smoke or flash is weird. Nothing is visible in the video or the individual still frames. Unfortunately, the camera wasn't on the ejection port side where something might have been visible, though the slide didn't move.


All seems well with the pistol and I'll try to CC it instead of my Kahr P40, though I would prefer to save this one for night carry, which is generally restaurants, though we don't do that often. I like the idea of 9+1+10 or 13 230-grain GDSB in a reload vs. the 6+1+7 180-grain GDSB with my P40.


Wynn :)

[ltxi]

This was not so much a case blowout as a damaged case...........

Understand....I perhaps shoulda used a different word

[Bawanna]

Hmmmm, rudabegga?

[CJB]

Oh, I wasn't referring to you or what you said. Sorry if you took it that way. My commentary was more generalization on the "WTF?" factor.
In a past life, worked with a commercial loading company. Reloading actually, which has its own set of situations and lack of conformity to overcome. If something could possibly happen, it would. For instance, how do you get a shell that could only be seated in the feed rail one way, that is, its rim in the feed rail (or be knocked out into a tray for a misfeed), and then somehow get rim up into the sizing die and jam up the works? How do you get a bullet seated, then in the crimp station get a cartridge that looks like Wiley E. Coyote after the ACME 10 ton weight fell on him? Its like a game.... the components try to outsmart you and you have to devise a way to overcome it all.

So.... that's why I said that Federal would probably love to see that WTF case. Could be that something came across laterally and dented the case (or more likely a whole run of cases that fell into a nice bin at the end of the line, ready for cleaning again and packaging). The only thing for certain... looks like primer residue on the case.

And.... yes, a primer alone will push the bullet into the bore of an autoloader. Revolvers will get bullets stuck at the forcing cone for primer only. Light loads will make it into the barrel though. Someplace I've got a .38 FMJ that got stuck in Jack Ruby's gun he killed Oswald with. Tony Pugleisi was selling the bullets in a case with a serial number, and he did the shooting into a barrel of water at the range. That one was a very very light load and was only half way down a 2 inch barrel Colt snubby (can't remember if it was Agent or Cobra... aluminum frame tho).

[ltxi]

Nah....you're right. It was a case rupture, not a blowout. I know the difference and should be more careful with my words in case anyone is actually paying attention....something I'm not all used to. :)

Or per maybe haps it was a one of them ruttybagel thingys like the Col done said.

[CJB]

Well to tell the truth, I saw the thread this AM at work on my phone... couldn't respond but was thinkin all morning.... WTF? Looking at tiny pictures and sorta quick skimmin' the different posts.... so I really had only ideas about how could a low pressure situation open up a case... hadda be a defect... wait... double defect? Astronomically unlikely with that, so... that leaves the defect occuring in the cartridge assembly process... but where? Well, no or very little powder... at the charging point.

I've been reminded by my big bristoled British gal, that maybe the powder all fell out of the hole before the wee bitty was fired.

Leave it to a woman, British woman at that... to state the obvious!

[downtownv]

I matched 3 different wooden dowels sizes (9mm .40 cal and 45acp diameters) from the local HD. I cut them down and keep them in my range bag to tap them out should that occur.
I never had a casing that got destroyed, however.

[340pd]

Be careful using wood dowels regardless of size. They can splinter and make the situation much worse.

Really, the best I have found is a brass rod and a hammer.

[CJB]

7/16 drill rod....

[wyntrout]

Wood would not have worked with this bullet. I think steel was warranted and safe because the rod/punch had a safe place to rest in the lead at the open base of the bullet.

If I had been at home, I probably would have tried a dowel and splintered it! I do have some long steel punches and I probably would have looked to see which way was the shortest route out of the barrel for the bullet... probably front to back, but then no nice rest for the steel rod.

I did contact Federal on their site and then called and talked to several people and gave them the links for KahrTalk and GlockTalk and Photobucket, but the images did not show for the guy I talked to and he couldn't go to Photobucket, so I replied to his email with most of the pictures and then some that I didn't post here.

I'm not looking for any kind of compensation, since no damage was done... just info for them.

Hopefully I'll get some kind of feedback and maybe they'll want the case and bullet... don't know.

Anyhow, it's educational and keeps caution in the minds of everyone about events like this.

Wynn :)

[wyntrout]

Update! No word from Federal since July, but today UPS left a package... Federal Ammo... with two boxes of 230-grain FMJ's! No explanation of any kind.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1451/24443318362_fb5a68627d_m.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1620/24443318692_dbfacbeea3_m.jpg

I had kind of given up on hearing from them... nice surprise.

[muggsy]

Technically you didn't experience a squib. What you experienced was a ruptured case. Because of the rupture the case didn't expand to seal the chamber and the gasses took the path of least resistance. It did result in a bore obstruction, but driving the bullet out of the bore with an allen wrench is not a preferred method of removing a bore obstruction. Before shooting the gun again you should have it checked out by a competent gunsmith or the manufacturer to ensure that you aren't shooting a potential hand grenade. JMHO.

[Bobshouse]

That's not two boxes in my part of the world, that's two cases! 20 boxes. Have fun shooting those up, and save the brass, its reloadable!

[Bawanna]

I figured it was just two boxes packed in a case box. If it is two cases that was damn nice of them and I agree totally.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ I see two pictures so does that mean 4 boxes or 2 cases? :rolleyes: Congrats on the windfall Wynn.

[wyntrout]

No... just two boxes of 50 with lots of good packing. :-)

Dang! It's windy and cold here... still around 38°, but I've leaped to the window several times because it looked like a few large snowflakes. The mailman said the same thing!

It's definitely not wishful thinking... did the White Christmas thing in SW Colorado with a semi-blizzard on Christmas morning!