Postscript: Final Verdict on the CW380

[Coppertop]

From a fit, feel and accuracy point of view the Kahr CW380 is a fantastic weapon. The slim profile and lightweight design makes it a great off-duty gun and from 10 yards in, the gun is spot on.

While I am impressed with the CW380, if you are considering buying one understand you will need a lot of patience.

I know that many will disagree with my opinion but, it is ridiculous to expect consumers to blow through 200 rounds of ammo to "break-in" the weapon. That places a $80+ cost on the consumer that shouldn't be necessary. A gun should leave the manufacturer in a reliable state. You should be able to take the gun out of the box, load it up and shoot it without any concerns about functioning.

The only break-in period that should exist with a weapon is the owner getting accustomed to the weapon such as point of aim, recoil and basic handling. The gun should not require the consumer to break it in from a functioning point of view.

I understand the position of spring tolerances and the engineering points of who disagree with my position. However, since buying the Kahr I have also purchased a Sig P238 and Ruger LCP. Both of these weapons functioned reliably right out of the box. I have owned a large number of firearms in my lifetime and the CW380 is the only weapon that did not function properly out of the box.

The other issue is Kahr's customer service. I had to have the gun sent to Kahr twice fix a trigger pivot pin that would not seat right. It ended up being a faulty frame. I have since received the gun back from Kahr and while it functions properly, the slide stop is now broken. At some point during the 50 rounds I shot this morning, the half-moon portion of this piece snapped off. I will simply order a replacement part and not worry with customer service.

Emails would go un-answered and when I called the Kahr representative acted as if I was bothering them. When it came down to having the frame replaced, Kahr seemed to care less that I might face a transfer fee from the dealer. I understand the transfer fee is a ATF regulation, but Kahr could have easily recommended I check with the dealer I purchased the gun from and maybe have the fee waived. Instead, Kahr took an "it's not my fault" attitude.

I will have to say one Kahr representative, Matt, came across as wanting to help. But other than Matt, I didn't think anyone could give a rip about customer retention.

Once I replace the slide stop, the CW380 will find a home in my gun safe until I find something to trade it for. I really like the design of the CW380 and see this pistol having tremendous potential. However, I think Kahr cuts corners and doesn't fully understand that we buy these weapons to be reliable right out of the box. Reliability that our lives could be depending on.

If you happened to have better luck than I have, congratulations on owning a nice handgun. Should anyone take a chance on the CW380, I wish you luck. I think for every nightmare you read about these guns, there is at least one positive. Breaking even on customer satisfaction should never be acceptable to any manufacturer.

I jumped on to these forums to tap into the insight of those who have "been there, done that" and found a host of knowledgeable members. I doubt I'll have a need to post here any longer but want to thank those who have helped me sort this mess out.

[DavidR]

I think that's a fair post. My CW380 didn't work out either (600 + rounds and a trip back to Kahr but still had failures to return to battery) but I've stuck around here because the regular/long time posters are great guys who freely share their advice and counsel on lots of different gun issues. I don't currently own a Kahr but would like to pick up a K9.


Dave

[SlowBurn]

Admittedly that is a LOT of grief for a brand new gun. Sorry it didn't work out. A friend likes my cw380 and might want to buy yours if the price is right. Are you interested in selling or just want to hold onto it until you find something to trade it for?

[Coppertop]

A friend likes my cw380 and might want to buy yours if the price is right. Are you interested in selling or just want to hold onto it until you find something to trade it for?

Not sure. Need to wait for the replacement slide lock to get here and go from there.

[SlowBurn]

Fair enough. Hope you stick around anyway.

[kwh]

No excuse for poor customer service. I read all of your posts and agree with all your comments and decision.

[yqtszhj]

+1 on Matt. He was who I spoke with on my CW45 frame issue. He was very helpful.

[CJB]

What half moon piece on the slide stop? Trying to visualize.....

[Coppertop]

What half moon piece on the slide stop? Trying to visualize.....

It is the half-moon portion that keeps the slide lock from sliding out of the frame unless you line things up just right. Normally you would line up the to hash marks to remove the slide lock to disassemble the gun. I can now push the slide lock out of the frame regardless of the slide's position.

[wyntrout]

I've always been well-served by emails with pictures of the problem. Calls are like demands for immediate attention from busy people, while emails can be read and addressed as the workload allows. I've always had replacement parts sent quickly for documented failures, as your slide lock lever.

My last problem was ALL of my NINE PM45 mags either failing outright... at one time... from spring brittleness or being the wrong magazine springs... 5 or 6 round springs in the 7-round mags. CS wanted me to "just return the springs for replacement" but I called and got Matt and explained that the mags were okay except for the springs and that I had replaced a few with my spare springs and didn't want to send all of my mags in when replacement springs would fix them. He sent me 9 new springs... the proper ones.

Every new polymer pistol from Kahr went back at least once... my first P380 twice, my second P380 (for wifey) once, and my my PM45 5 times... Franken Boomer, as everything was replaced at least once... except the slide lock lever... even the frame. I'm happy with all 5 of my remaining polymer Kahrs.

Wynn

[CJB]

Dang

[gbabs2]

I have been reading this forum for the the past few weeks trying to decide wether or not to get a p380/cm380 or an lcp. There appears to be nothing but problems that Kahr gets arround to correcting if their customer is diligent and pursues corrective action . Do either of these two 380 pistols ever work right without rework? I went on the Ruger forum and the majority of the new lcp purchases appear to work right out of the box. Is anybody at Kahr paying attention?

[clayflingythingy]

I have been reading this forum for the the past few weeks trying to decide wether or not to get a p380/cm380 or an lcp. There appears to be nothing but problems that Kahr gets arround to correcting if their customer is diligent and pursues corrective action . Do either of these two 380 pistols ever work right without rework? I went on the Ruger forum and the majority of the new lcp purchases appear to work right out of the box. Is anybody at Kahr paying attention?

MY CW380 ran 100% out of the box with PMC Bronze and CCI Blazer Brass and Critical Defense ammo. Had a few bobbles with some other brands that seemed to be related to under powered ammo. My little Kahr gets better with use.

Kahr had to replace the frame on my CW45. No complaints with Kahr customer service. I use email to communicate as I hate talking on a phone.

YMMV

[Bobshouse]

Matt helpful? Maybe they have two Matts there. The Matt I dealt with was the opposite of helpful...

[Coppertop]

I've always been well-served by emails with pictures of the problem. Calls are like demands for immediate attention from busy people, while emails can be read and addressed as the workload allows. I've always had replacement parts sent quickly for documented failures, as your slide lock lever.

I'm the same way. It's easier for me to send or receive emails. The only reason I picked up the phone is after a day without a response or acknowledgment by Kahr, I had to pick up the phone.

It got to the point that I hated calling because no matter how much I tried, they would tick me off. I'm kinda curious if the same people who answer the phone are the ones doing the actual work on the guns.

[SlowBurn]

I have been reading this forum for the the past few weeks trying to decide wether or not to get a p380/cm380 or an lcp. There appears to be nothing but problems that Kahr gets arround to correcting if their customer is diligent and pursues corrective action . Do either of these two 380 pistols ever work right without rework? I went on the Ruger forum and the majority of the new lcp purchases appear to work right out of the box. Is anybody at Kahr paying attention?

I have a p380 and a now also a cw380. Zero complaints with either. You can get the wrong impression from reading anecdotes on a forum. If the percent of returns for service/replacement was anything like 50%, the gun would be cost prohibitive for Kahr to sell. Many have no issues, some have hiccups during break in and are fine after. A few have to be returned, and once in awhile ... sorry Coppertop had so much grief.

LCP is a fine gun and Ruger is a great company. But while LCPs are built to looser tolerances and probably work as well as they ever will out of the box, they also have their problems...

One they are flimsier and therefore, imo, can be dangerous if you happen to shoot a round that is overly robust. They've been known to blow apart, which to be fair is a problem attributable to bad ammo, but I haven't heard of it happening to Kahrs. But that's not why I switched pocket pistols, and it wasn't the better "shootability" of the Kahr, though I like that. It was the problem of the "smiley".

I found my LCP was making dents on the nose of the bullet while being loading into the chamber by recoil. Simply racking a round in didn't do it, but firing the gun damaged the nose of next bullet loading from mag. It was especially bad on soft nosed self defense rounds; just crushed the soft nose. I took pictures, emailed them to Ruger, sent the LCP in with copies of the pictures. They serviced and returned it, but the paperwork they sent back never mentioned the problem I sent it in for. When I took it to the range, the smilies were still there. Searching on the internet, the consensus was this problem is inherent in the design of the LCP and also the Kel-Tec P-3AT. As far as I know Ruger has never officially acknowledged the problem at all and never been able to fix it. Not all LCPs do it, some do it less severely. But if they do, it can't be fixed, and won't even be admitted.

Some of my friends know and don't care. I don't know of a single safety related incident caused by smilies. My LCP always ran reliably except when I limp wristed it. But common sense tells me a SD round is not going to perform as its supposed to if the nose is hammered in. By that time I was hooked on pocket carry, tried to research which was the best, noticed that most serious gun writers and bloggers at the time seemed to use the Kahr P380 and that's the route I took.

Every handgun represents some type of compromise, and in particular I think micro 380s push the limit. You just have to decide what downsides you can live with in exchange for other upsides. Thousands of people are very satisfied with their LCPs. I'm pretty sure its the most popular pocket gun, and I expect you'll be happy with yours if that's what you choose. Just letting you know my experience and why the Kahrs are my choice.

[gbabs2]

I really prefer the Kahr to the Ruger, my trepidation is the multitude of published issues. Your point of there being more good ones out there than anecdotal problems is very valid. So, in the end, I have to decide.

[Bobshouse]

Another consideration, the ol'sayin... "When a person is satisfied, they tell one or two, when dissatisfied, they tell twenty or thirty."

[wyntrout]

A calm and reasonable email with good photographic evidence or documentation is easy to handle. I always include the serial number of the pistol and any helpful information about my problem... and if it affects the safety of using the pistol, especially for self defense, I emphasize that for some sense of urgency. I haven't had to pay for shipping the pistols for service, or for shipping of the replacement parts Kahr sent me.

I think that the attitude of both parties enters into the "quality" of service or attention. With the email, there's no pressure on the Kahr employee to drop everything he/she was doing, take the call, and try to deal with an increasingly irate or demanding customer. The email should have all of the relevant information and the CS person doesn't have to try to transcribe the problem from the phone conversation.

Trying to call and reach someone can be frustrating, especially if you're put on hold. That's why it's better to send an email with GOOD photos along with an explanation of the problem. Some personalities are just too large to make constructive calls. IMHO.

Wynn :)

[TimtheRef]

I have a P380 with a serial number starting with RC and it's never made returns to the factory that I'm aware of. It was a little finicky at first as I was working out the kinks, and it was mainly issues of feeding. After the first 200 rounds or so it hasn't given me a moment's trouble, I shoot it regularly and carry it 90% of the time (CM9 other 10%.) For me it has been worth the compromises for an easy to carry, easy to shoot, little pistol that I regularly bet my life on.

[Alfonse]

I finished 250 rounds through a little CW380 today. It wasn't perfect. Taking it apart to prep it, the slide lock required a punch and mallet to get out. The little spring had been installed incorrectly. I called Kahr. They sent a new one. I put it in and that has been just fine.

I've actually been hoping to get a "finicky" pistol so I can understand why they might be that way. On this CW380, I installed 2 Magguts kits before I ever fired it. I went out with 200 rounds of PMC range ammo and Remington HTTP. I had about a dozen times it took a slap of my left palm to get it to go fully into battery during those first 200 rounds.

I cleaned it again after the first session and took it out again today. It was perfect. I did have the mags back in factory form. I also thought about my grip a little bit before shooting. I have big hands and it is tiny. Anyway, I consciously held it tight and sent 50 rounds of PMC down range without a glitch. I have never had an issue with any of my other Kahrs, but It could have been me.

Next time, I will try some different holds and will use a mix of magguts and factory magazines.

The bottom line is the thing runs fine the way Kahr sent it and me doing my part.

[Coppertop]

The bottom line is the thing runs fine the way Kahr sent it and me doing my part.

But your CW380 didn't run fine the way Kahr sent it. The Sig P238 I purchased last week ran fine the way Sig shipped it. 50 rounds, no malfunctions, no broken or incorrectly installed parts.

You had several failure to feeds and the spring was installed incorrectly. I'm glad it worked out but Kahr needs to do a better job to avoid the faulty frames, springs installed wrong and the out of the box failure to feeds. As consumers and shooters, none of this should be acceptable.

[jocko]

I think the kahr 380 is the most qaccurate little gun I hve ever shot. I actually shot it better than my pMJ9...

[DavidR]

But your CW380 didn't run fine the way Kahr sent it. The Sig P238 I purchased last week ran fine the way Sig shipped it. 50 rounds, no malfunctions, no broken or incorrectly installed parts.

You had several failure to feeds and the spring was installed incorrectly. I'm glad it worked out but Kahr needs to do a better job to avoid the faulty frames, springs installed wrong and the out of the box failure to feeds. As consumers and shooters, none of this should be acceptable.

I have to agree with this. Both of my Ruger LCPs ran fine right out of the box. Literally took them from the sales counter straight to the firing line, no prep needed, and both performed fine. No break in required.

I liked my CW380 a lot and in many ways it's a "better" gun than the LCP but I spent a lot of money on ammo (600+ rounds) and sent it back once and it still would not run reliably.

I'm very happy now with my LCPs. I put Hogue Handall Jrs on them and slightly stronger Wolff recoil springs and they shoot great and felt recoil is mild.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/2801FFD6-A4AD-495C-8772-06A669613043_zps9lc8h55q.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/2801FFD6-A4AD-495C-8772-06A669613043_zps9lc8h55q.jpg.html)

[Alfonse]

But your CW380 didn't run fine the way Kahr sent it.

A more accurate way of saying it would have been without modification. I suspect the feed failures were either due to the Magguts or my grip. Your Sig P238 runs fine. It appears many do not: https://www.google.com/search?q=sig+p238+failures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The point is, nothing is perfect. I have 8 Kahrs around here. The worst problem I have had in any of them is the spring not being installed correctly. It was fixed easily and quickly. I don't know if 8 Sig P238s would be as good looking at the links.

[Coppertop]

A more accurate way of saying it would have been without modification. I suspect the feed failures were either due to the Magguts or my grip. Your Sig P238 runs fine. It appears many do not: https://www.google.com/search?q=sig+p238+failures&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The point is, nothing is perfect. I have 8 Kahrs around here. The worst problem I have had in any of them is the spring not being installed correctly. It was fixed easily and quickly. I don't know if 8 Sig P238s would be as good looking at the links.

Agreed nothing is perfect. But the examples you post on the P238 are rather dated compared to the problems we are seeing with the Kahr. If I remember correctly, the first generation P238 even had a recall. Sig learned from the issues from years ago and took corrective measures.

Granted, in 2-3 years Kahr may iron out things and get the CW380 where it is a solid pistol right out of the box. I hope they get there but not going to hold my breath on it.

[Alfonse]

Agreed nothing is perfect. But the examples you post on the P238 are rather dated compared to the problems we are seeing with the Kahr.

On here you can find P238 problems as new as yesterday: http://sigtalk.com/p238-p938-pistol/

Hammers not resetting, guide rods coming apart, hammer ramp pins falling out, assembly issues, chips in slide, complete replacement of the firearm and it goes on and on. From that forum, they sound like a wreck.

I'm glad you have your opinion. I just don't agree with your conclusion.

[Coppertop]

I'm glad you have your opinion. I just don't agree with your conclusion.

Glad you could find something a little less dated.
As you so eloquently said, nothing is perfect. If you can knock Sig, you definitely can beat the tar out of Kahr.

I too am glad you have your opinion but as I see it the other manufacturers take a proactive approach to improving their weapons. Kahr seems to sit back and let the consumer run through costly ammunition and then react to the issues.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because there is nothing you can say to change my opinion of Kahr. I gave them a chance, had hopes they could pull things out but in the end all the CW380 has been for me is one problem after another. Something I cannot say about any other firearm I own or have owned.

[zaitcev]

From that forum, they sound like a wreck.
And from this forum, CW380 is a bigger wreck yet. It's the nature of forums and you cannot fight forums with forums. Even the number of complaints tell you nothing because of multitude of forums and the difference in the sales volume.

[CJB]

I got an email today and it had a letter from Larry Vickers in it.


Part of what he said had to do with people spewing junk information on the internet, and trashing this and that from every little bad experience.


I try to make sense of the physical world every day. Why things are as they are. Its my job. One thing I've learned from my customers is that they always compare brand X, Y and Z.

Folks, you gotta remember:

1. The problems come to internet forums, in the way of seeking advice, or bitching.
2. The vast...vast... majority of users have zero issues.
a. If they did, the company would be out of business with warranty work
b. It seems they don't, due to 1. above
3. Due to the overall lack of problems, its quite likely your other brand R, S and T products will not have issues, so comparison is skewed.
4. The other guys, with brands R, S and T are complaining about those very same brands, singularly, and they're saying brands K, L and M have no issues.

Put another way, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

[DavidR]

Anecdotally it seems that Kahr has more problems with its micro 380s than its other guns.

My theory is that Kahr's manufacturing is not up to the task of consistently producing 380s with such tight tolerances and they let far too many defective 380s out the door.



Dave

[jocko]

Now why would kahr do that, fully knowing theyt are gonna get the guns back on their dime to let alone the bad publicity that goes along with it. Small guns no doubt are more finiky than the big guns, just more room to do things with thebig guns. Ur gonna read on any gun frum peole who have issues, that is just the nature of the beast. Those who are having no issues are usually oput shoot8ng or not realy interested in gun chat lines.

I was a kel tek owner many years back and those fokkers gave alot of issues. I got to know some of the kel tek smitty's and they told me that over 50% of allguns sent bacvk that THERE WAS NUTTIN WRONG. My wife back then could not make their P32 work worth a damn but in my hands it went bang every time. can't fix what ain't broken..Just sayin

[b4uqzme]

I got an email today and it had a letter from Larry Vickers in it.


Part of what he said had to do with people spewing junk information on the internet, and trashing this and that from every little bad experience.


I try to make sense of the physical world every day. Why things are as they are. Its my job. One thing I've learned from my customers is that they always compare brand X, Y and Z.

Folks, you gotta remember:

1. The problems come to internet forums, in the way of seeking advice, or bitching.
2. The vast...vast... majority of users have zero issues.
a. If they did, the company would be out of business with warranty work
b. It seems they don't, due to 1. above
3. Due to the overall lack of problems, its quite likely your other brand R, S and T products will not have issues, so comparison is skewed.
4. The other guys, with brands R, S and T are complaining about those very same brands, singularly, and they're saying brands K, L and M have no issues.

Put another way, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

^^^ best post yet. But my dad used the unemployment rate as an example. The UE rate may only be 4% (he told me this back when unemployment was normal) but, if you are one of the ones unemployed, then you are 100% unemployed. We'll never get thru to the 100 percenters CJB but I give you credit for trying. :o

[DavidR]

Now why would kahr do that, fully knowing theyt are gonna get the guns back on their dime to let alone the bad publicity that goes along with it.

That's a great question for Mr Moon.



Dave

[Coppertop]

bah... not worth it.

[b4uqzme]

^^^ Too late but I give you credit for deleting it.

[zaitcev]

I was a kel tek owner many years back and those fokkers gave alot of issues. I got to know some of the kel tek smitty's and they told me that over 50% of allguns sent bacvk that THERE WAS NUTTIN WRONG. My wife back then could not make their P32 work worth a damn but in my hands it went bang every time. can't fix what ain't broken..Just sayin

I had the same problem with Glock 42: every time I shot it, it worked perfectly (except when shooting Barnes, of course), but my wife often got premature slide lock. I tinkered with it a little bit by finding stiffer slide stop spring in the Tango Down kit, but primarily it was an excercise to give her the confidence to hold the gun right. There's no problem now. However, she had no issues with P238 from the very beginning. I think its DA/SA trigger system and its metal frame gave P238 a lot of advantage in reliability over the likes of CW380. SiG probably let its slide to slam back like the AK carrier group.

[topgun1953]

On here you can find P238 problems as new as yesterday: http://sigtalk.com/p238-p938-pistol/

Hammers not resetting, guide rods coming apart, hammer ramp pins falling out, assembly issues, chips in slide, complete replacement of the firearm and it goes on and on. From that forum, they sound like a wreck.

I'm glad you have your opinion. I just don't agree with your conclusion.

Ha..Correct..My P938...is at Sig for a second time. They do have issues, but just like with the Kahr 380 you really don't know the percentage of problem guns....

[SmokyT]

It is the half-moon portion that keeps the slide lock from sliding out of the frame unless you line things up just right. Normally you would line up the to hash marks to remove the slide lock to disassemble the gun. I can now push the slide lock out of the frame regardless of the slide's position.

Same thing happened to my P380 a couple of weeks ago, when I had about 1.2K rounds through it. The half-moon portion of the slide stop broke off, and the slide stop completely jumped out of the frame while firing the gun on the range.

I ordered a new slide stop (along with other parts) from Kahr, dehorned it, and filed the tab (that is pushed up by the mag follower to engage the slide stop) to make sure it does not interfere with proper feeding. After tweaking the new slide stop, I took my P380 to range and test-fired 120+ rounds with no issue. (Three Magguts converted flush magazines that I have been using all worked flawlessly as they have been.) Now the gun is back in business again.

It's not like the slide stop broke on my second trip to the range with the gun, and I really do like my P380. But along with the persistent light strike problem and initial slide pre-mature engagement problem (both of which I fixed myself), I must say that it is a finicky little gun.

[Coppertop]

Ended up ordering the replacement slide stop myself and choose the P380 slide stop instead of the CW380. Figured the machined part may be more durable.
Got the part Friday, went to the range today and ran 50 rounds through the CW380. Everything worked as it should.

Not sure if I'll keep it or not (in no rush to make that call). I do like the design and feel of the CW380, but it took way too long to get to where I am now. The gun has so much potential that I can't help but think if Kahr put a little more effort into their production, it reduce the number of frustrated customers and let the pistol shine a lot brighter.

[jfsjr66]

New cw 380 first time shooting 50 rounds Pmc flawless two mags of gold dot same results.so far very happy but they can be moody little bastards.