I'm uncertain...

[skiflydive]

So I see a lot of posts on here about accuracy. Pattern spread, x hits at x feet, 2" pattern at 21' etc. I can run 50 9mm or .380 into a 9"paper plate at 21' with ease but I really wonder about a SHTF situation. I recall the press video about the Boston Bomber situation. It sounded like hundreds of LEO shots fired and yet the bros were only hit by a few. The one who was killed was killed by his brother running over him with their car as I recall. So, if the LEO's with all their practice (this is only one example) can't hit the perp how likely are us reglar citizens to hit the target in said SHTF situation? I'm ALL ABOUT shooting practice and hitting the target etc. but I wonder how effective at center mass shooting we would be or if we'd all be purdy good at hitting something within 10-20 degrees of where we're pointing. I carry, I can hit center mass every time at the range, I wonder how good I (we) really are if the people who practice all the time miss a lot. Just asking.

[Bawanna]

Police don't get to practice nearly enough. It's always a budget thing.

Until you look the elephant in the eye one never knows what or how they will do. What their reaction will be. This is true with police too.

That's why they focus on muscle memory and repetition and hope it carries the day when it happens for real.

[Planedude]

Posted recently in a thread by TD2K :

"Tom Givens of Rangemaster in Memphis has trained thousands of students. He keeps track of student involved shootings, and has a presentation with stats on number of rounds fired, distance, etc.

To date, he has had 67 students involved in a violent encounter where shots were fired. The record is 65 wins, 0 losses, 2 forfeits. The 2 forfeits were not carrying a gun, and they aren't alive to explain why they were not carrying.

Any time I even CONSIDER leaving the house unarmed (I'm just running to the store for a loaf of bread, I don't want to gear back up just for that, I'll only be gone 5 minutes, etc) a little voice in my head (which sounds a LOT like Tom's voice), says "Don't be number three!". That does the trick."

If you carry, train reasonably and stay aware while out in the world... You'll do fine. Just be prepared for the aftermath as that can be as hard as the gunfight you never asked for.

Of course on the plus side, your alive to complain about it...

[CJB]

Just ask Jesse or Al, but cops muscle memory is best when the target is darker, not lighter.....

Yah right.

You see cops MISS in armed altercations all the time. WTF? Thirty eight shots fired, by two officers, at the armed and shooting perp, and two shots hit the target.

Human reaction to nerves. Dynamic target training probably helps. But even that is too unrealistic.

How can you train an officer to keep his nerve, when even battle weary troops lose their nerve?

Wasn't it John Wayne in The Shootist....

Gillom Rogers (Ron Howard) (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000165/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Bat Masterson told Cobb...

John Bernard Books John Wayne) (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000078/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): [Interrupts] Bat Masterson?

Gillom Rogers (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000165/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Yeah, he said that a man has to have guts, deliberation and a proficiency with fire arms.
John Bernard Books (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000078/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Did he mention that third eye you better have?
Gillom Rogers (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000165/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Third eye?
John Bernard Books (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000078/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): For that ******* amateur. There's always some six-fingered bustard that couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup. That's the one who usually does you in. But Masterson always was full of... sheep-dip.

[AJBert]

In my very humble opinion, to many folks "practice" using their sights. When the SHTF, sights are pretty much useless. Folks tend to point and shoot hoping something lands. Very few ever practice point shooting.

As a side note, this is something I learned at young age with a shotgun. Point shooting training continued on in the military. I have to say I really impressed myself when point shooting with a firearm an the meanest sandbag from various positions, whether it was a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

[340pd]

In my very humble opinion, to many folks "practice" using their sights. When the SHTF, sights are pretty much useless. Folks tend to point and shoot hoping something lands. Very few ever practice point shooting.

As a side note, this is something I learned at young age with a shotgun. Point shooting training continued on in the military. I have to say I really impressed myself when point shooting with a firearm an the meanest sandbag from various positions, whether it was a rifle, shotgun or pistol.

^^^Exactly^^^
Learn to focus on the threat and operate the trigger smoothly. Think trap shooting.

[Armybrat]

My nephew's small police department was involved in a fatal shooting last week.

Fortunately for my nephew, who is usually on the night shift, he was off duty that night. The Kerrville PD has a total of 36 street cops.

The entire night shift of four officers responded to the call and set up outside the man's house after the wife fled with their child. The perp came out on the porch but it was so dark they could barely see him. I don't know what the distance was. When the man fired a shot in the direction of the officers, all four fired back at his muzzle flash. They shot a total of 12 rounds at him - all 4 officers were using their issue AR-15 carbines, but only one bullet hit the mark.
They saw him fall and immediately went to his aid with their medical kit. After being transported to the local hospital then to nearby San Antonio, the man died. Pretty sad ending to a family disturbance call.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Kerrville-police-shoot-kill-man-who-fired-rifle-6448471.php

Of course the 4 man night shift is on administrative leave for several weeks while the Texas Rangers investigate the shooting. Being such a small PD, the chief has a tough job rescheduling everybody on all the shifts. Nephew ain't gettin' any time off for a while until the investigation is complete.

12 rounds fired, 1 hit - but as noted it was very dark.

Kerrville has a population of about 22,000 people (a lot of them military retirees), so incidents like this are a very big deal.

[happypuppy]

A lot of good points.

Point shooting works. Learn it if you don't.

The last case with the AR; I have changed my way of thinking a bit. I was using a 130 lumen weapons light. I am planning on going to a much brighter one. I wonder if that's part of the problem with this shooting. Can't hit it if you can't see it. Anyway I am realistic that as I am not a kid anymore my night vision due to the loss of cones with aging is about half what it was at 20. So lights are a good thing.

[muggsy]

Shooting tight groups at the range using the sights demonstrates how well the individual shoots his gun. Things change on the street in the dark when the target is shooting back. When I point shoot I measure my groups in minutes of torso.

[berettabone]

Budget smudgit..................If I were a cop, I would practice as much as I could on my own, with my money if necessary. If they have a range available to them, they ought to use it. Do they want to go home at night?????????????????

[Bawanna]

I agree but in reality most cops think of their gun as a carpenters hammer. Some you literally have to drag to the range or they wouldn't go at all.

Some suck but manage to qual and yet they are usually not concerned.

I was quite shocked at how few cops are actually gun guys.

[berettabone]

Qualification must not be too difficult........................................y ou would think that they would want to be a better shot with whatever they are using.......................I, for one would want to increase my shooting ability ten fold before going out to face the idiots of the world..............I'm always working on it. Might as well be better than they are, because they're the one's that show up late, to pick up the pieces. I respect most of them, for the job that they do............you would think that they would take the firearm a bit more seriously.

[muggsy]

Cops are people, too. Some cops enjoy shooting and others don't. Some of the best shots and worst shots are police officers. I know several cops who served for more than twenty years and never had cause to draw their guns let alone shoot them except for qualifying. I'm not a cop,but I try to get to the range at least once a week.

[muggsy]

Food for thought.



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Over my 37 years in law enforcement I worked with at least 120 different officers on my own department, and worked closely (K-9 training) at least 20 more.

Of that number, I know of 8 who fired their weapons in the line of duty. Five of those officers killed the people they were shooting at (two of that number were involved in the same incident and shot and killed an assailant).

So, to review, over 37 years, a minimum pool of 140 officers, 8 officers fired their weapons in deadly force encounters.

As a rule, most officers go their entire careers without firing their weapons at an offender. The

[Armybrat]

I agree but in reality most cops think of their gun as a carpenters hammer. Some you literally have to drag to the range or they wouldn't go at all.

Some suck but manage to qual and yet they are usually not concerned.

I was quite shocked at how few cops are actually gun guys.
No kidding!

My nephew in Kerrville collects all the issued practice ammo his fellow officers don't shoot at their range. He's got quite a stash of .40 cal. (their service weapons are Glocks).

[O'Dell]

My son was an officer and a police chief for about 15 years. He had to retire as a captain because of a knee injury recieved in a automobile accident. Fortunately, he's still a paramedic and commercial pilot. Anyway, I went to his range many times and learned that a lot of LEO's aren't particularly interested in firearms and many aren't very good with them. I'm probably just a bit above average, but I never shot with one I couldn't outpoint. Of course, they always said I cheated by using SIG's and HK's, while they had Glocks. :rolleyes:

[b4uqzme]

My son was an officer and a police chief for about 15 years. He had to retire as a captain because of a knee injury recieved in a automobile accident. Fortunately, he's still a paramedic and commercial pilot. Anyway, I went to his range many times and learned that a lot of LEO's aren't particularly interested in firearms and many aren't very good with them. I'm probably just a bit above average, but I never shot with one I couldn't outpoint. Of course, they always said I cheated by using SIG's and HK's, while they had Glocks. :rolleyes:

:).

[Armybrat]

My son was an officer and a police chief for about 15 years. He had to retire as a captain because of a knee injury recieved in a automobile accident. Fortunately, he's still a paramedic and commercial pilot. Anyway, I went to his range many times and learned that a lot of LEO's aren't particularly interested in firearms and many aren't very good with them. I'm probably just a bit above average, but I never shot with one I couldn't outpoint. Of course, they always said I cheated by using SIG's and HK's, while they had Glocks. :rolleyes:
Good stuff! :D

[mser]

I agree but in reality most cops think of their gun as a carpenters hammer. Some you literally have to drag to the range or they wouldn't go at all.

Some suck but manage to qual and yet they are usually not concerned.

I was quite shocked at how few cops are actually gun guys.


I've been a law enforcement officer for nearly 34 years and counting, with 33 of them spent on the road (I spent one year as an investigator and absolutely hated it). Like Bawanna, when I entered the law enforcement field I too was amazed at how few of my fellow officers were "gun guys". To some, their service firearm means nothing more to them than their laptop computer or pen and notepad. They qualify annually (yes, only annually due to budget constraints) and are content in attaining a minimum passing score. They have no interest in taking advantage of training offered periodically. To others, like me, my pistol is a lifeline as is my training, experience and body armor. Any time I can take advantage of free training while shooting someone else's ammunition is a good day. Unfortunately, not all see it that way.

[Bawanna]

There you have it folks. We used to qualify twice a year. Last year they changed to once a year.

They do get some range training a few times a year and we're working on getting more. A lot of firearm training can be accomplished without even shooting, every little bit helps.

Last month we had a officer down rescue training day. They used outdated/expired vest to basically cover the side of a patrol car and then a group went in using the car to rescue a downed officer. It was enlightening to say the least.

Officers under fire, we were using simunition, not using the car for cover, out in the open with a bad guy shooting at them.
As an observer I wanted to pull my hair out. I was like get behind the damn car or I'll shoot ya myself...........

Well said Mser, stay on the street, the desk will drive you bonkers. I'm a good poster child for that.

[Baklash]

I will soon buy a new handgun....the first one for me that has a rail for adding a flashlight, laser, etc. The rail got me to wondering if I would want a flashlight mounted on my weapon. Seems that a light would just tell the bad guy where to aim. Is it such a good idea after all?

[berettabone]

It's a good idea for a bedroom/house protection firearm......................otherwise I can't see a use. I personally don't have a light on any firearms. My home is light enough at night to where I really don't need one(lousy city living).

[Alfonse]

I will soon buy a new handgun....the first one for me that has a rail for adding a flashlight, laser, etc. The rail got me to wondering if I would want a flashlight mounted on my weapon. Seems that a light would just tell the bad guy where to aim. Is it such a good idea after all?

I have one on a shotgun with a light on it where it is hard to hold the light and work the gun. There are ways that, with practice, you can use an appropriate flashlight with a pistol. A separate light allow opportunities to illuminate from somewhere other than where your pistol may be as well as to not be aiming at anything you illuminate.

[Bawanna]

When I had a Glock I had a light on it. Kind of mixed emotions on it. It was super nice to be able to easily and quickly light up the dark. A big concern is hitting the right button to do what you want. Turn on the light or pull the trigger.

I have a couple hand held surefires that work fine for me. I don't have anything with a rail on it at the moment so handheld will have to do for now.

[b4uqzme]

It's a good idea for a bedroom/house protection firearm.............

^^^ I think that is sound advice. I'd be more concerned with confirming the threat vs. giving away my position. I really don't want to shoot the dog.

[BEARDOG]

When I had a Glock I had a light on it. Kind of mixed emotions on it. It was super nice to be able to easily and quickly light up the dark. A big concern is hitting the right button to do what you want. Turn on the light or pull the trigger.

I have a couple hand held surefires that work fine for me. I don't have anything with a rail on it at the moment so handheld will have to do for now.

Col. B, Here is a neat and inexpensive way to add a rail to mount your light to one of your 1911's, or your Beretta.

http://www.amazon.com/Recover-Tactical-1911-Grip-System/dp/B00W5XDD5Y/ref=pd_sim_200_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1WYWQ254KGTF1MXX5JKE

http://www.amazon.com/ReCover-Tactical-System-Beretta-pistols/dp/B00P7D3HA0/ref=pd_sim_200_5?&ie=UTF8&refRID=0A3H9HZHB4TX34S10P14


Baklash, I am a firm believer in weapon mounted lights for home defense firearms. All mine have lights, and more. I want all the advantages I can have if ever the SHTF in my house in the middle of the night. YMMV>

[GROTMAN]

I will soon buy a new handgun....the first one for me that has a rail for adding a flashlight, laser, etc. The rail got me to wondering if I would want a flashlight mounted on my weapon. Seems that a light would just tell the bad guy where to aim. Is it such a good idea after all?

Since I started carrying my pm9 or lcp, my G19 has become my night stand gun. Debated over getting night sights or tactical light and ended getting a Streamlight TLR with 300 lumens. It works great if your eyes have been accustomed to the light but when I turned it on right after waking up in the middle of the night to "test it" it blinded the crap out of me! Hopefully if ever needed will do the same to the bad guy. If you do get a light you might want to practice so you can learn to adjust to it before the you ever really need it.

[Bawanna]

Col. B, Here is a neat and inexpensive way to add a rail to mount your light to one of your 1911's, or your Beretta.

http://www.amazon.com/Recover-Tactical-1911-Grip-System/dp/B00W5XDD5Y/ref=pd_sim_200_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1WYWQ254KGTF1MXX5JKE

http://www.amazon.com/ReCover-Tactical-System-Beretta-pistols/dp/B00P7D3HA0/ref=pd_sim_200_5?&ie=UTF8&refRID=0A3H9HZHB4TX34S10P14


Baklash, I am a firm believer in weapon mounted lights for home defense firearms. All mine have lights, and more. I want all the advantages I can have if ever the SHTF in my house in the middle of the night. YMMV>

You bite your tongue there Beardog. This is the wood grip guy remember. You want me to hang that Mattel plastic stuff on one of my beloved 1911's? Hmmmm. What were you thinking?

I do have a Beretta but it's only a 9, course it holds a lot of 9's, I guess with an extry magazine I could disable somebody.

[BEARDOG]

You bite your tongue there Beardog. This is the wood grip guy remember. You want me to hang that Mattel plastic stuff on one of my beloved 1911's? Hmmmm. What were you thinking?

I do have a Beretta but it's only a 9, course it holds a lot of 9's, I guess with an extry magazine I could disable somebody.

I know, I know, LOL ...But in the middle of a nighttime gunfight in your house I was thinking the rail and WML are going to serve you better then your beautiful custom wood grips, no???

I have multiple guns with rails so I don't "need" one of these Recover's... But if I didn't have CTC laser grips on my 92, I would have one of these on it ASAP. And yes a Beretta 92 with a 20 or 30 rd mag, plus a weapon light should be able to getter done! ;)

[Bawanna]

I use the muzzle flash for light.

I'll eventually get a rail gun, detective here has a Colt Rail Gun which is nice or CZ/Dan Wesson has a specialist out now that is quite nice looking. My local SEAL dude just got one, I haven't had an opportunity to check it out yet but it sure looks good.
I got the light, all I need is the gun and I'm good to go.

You need to focus. Looking cool is always job one! It's everything. Ugly don't cut it ever.

What if I lose, I can see it now in the paper, local crazy dude found dead in his home following gun fight holding an empty ugly gun. How could I live with that. Oh I guess that wouldn't be an issue now that I reponder that.

[Alfonse]

You need to focus. Looking cool is always job one! It's everything. Ugly don't cut it ever.

What if I lose, I can see it now in the paper, local crazy dude found dead in his home following gun fight holding an empty ugly gun. How could I live with that. Oh I guess that wouldn't be an issue now that I reponder that.

Can't imagine you could live with the thought of being found with an ugly gun.

[BEARDOG]

I use the muzzle flash for light.

I'll eventually get a rail gun, detective here has a Colt Rail Gun which is nice or CZ/Dan Wesson has a specialist out now that is quite nice looking. My local SEAL dude just got one, I haven't had an opportunity to check it out yet but it sure looks good.
I got the light, all I need is the gun and I'm good to go.

You need to focus. Looking cool is always job one! It's everything. Ugly don't cut it ever.

What if I lose, I can see it now in the paper, local crazy dude found dead in his home following gun fight holding an empty ugly gun. How could I live with that. Oh I guess that wouldn't be an issue now that I reponder that.

I admit I am partial to cool looking guns too...My bedside .45 is my Sig Tac-ops with night sights, Streamlight and CM 10 rd mag:cool:

http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/BeardogV1/P1080059.jpg (http://s958.photobucket.com/user/BeardogV1/media/P1080059.jpg.html)

[Bawanna]

Dawson Precision makes a bolt on rail that looks pretty good. You have to drill the dust cover and tap it but it looks good.

I've often thought of doing that to my Para P14-45. Lots of 45 bullets and shoots real good. LDA so a bit more forgiving when I'm groggy and not fully woke up.

[DavidWJ]

Our local Deputies qualify every three months while on patrol, or monthly if they want to stay on SWAT. They don't miss. They also have "optional" physical training qualifications on a yearly basis, which every field deputy passes or they move on. Very few of them are "gun guys." Guns are a last resort and very few of them have ever drawn their duty weapon. These deputies have made this a safe county with their intelligence and care working with people, dirt bags included.

[b4uqzme]

Our local Deputies qualify every three months while on patrol, or monthly if they want to stay on SWAT. They don't miss. They also have "optional" physical training qualifications on a yearly basis, which every field deputy passes or they move on. Very few of them are "gun guys." Guns are a last resort and very few of them have ever drawn their duty weapon. These deputies have made this a safe county with their intelligence and care working with people, dirt bags included.


That's good to hear. The police in our little township do a good job too. I just worry about the "big city" next door....

[Bawanna]

Our SWAT guys also qualify monthly and if they fail they do stuff without the gun. Door knockers, etc.

That part is good, I'd like to see quarterly quals for patrol guys or at least twice a year. Once a year ain't enough.

They do point out to me all the time that they do have training more frequently and that certainly counts, maybe even better than quals. Quals are easy.

We've never had an officer involved shooting, that's a bit scary too since they get too trusting. I kind of think of it as the Mayberry Syndrome. A town on the coast never had an officer shooting in many many years and I think they ended up with 3 in a month. It happens.

[skiflydive]

The gun club I belong to allows LEOS free, unlimited access to the ranges. I often see them working on the special use range doing moving target drills, stopped car drills etc. but often there are no LEOS there at all.

[Armybrat]

We've never had an officer involved shooting, that's a bit scary too since they get too trusting. I kind of think of it as the Mayberry Syndrome. A town on the coast never had an officer shooting in many many years and I think they ended up with 3 in a month. It happens.

The only other officer involved shooting my nephew's PD has experienced in the 30+ years he's been on the force was about 10 years ago. He & another officer responded to a disturbance call - a young man was at the local reservoir (by a neighborhood) firing a .22 rifle at houses & cars passing by. As soon as both cop cruisers pull up, the dude started shooting at them. Nephew's ride took a couple of rounds as he was opening his door, and the other officer fired one shot from his AR which kilt the perp DRT.
Later, the chief asked the officer if he needed any shrink counseling. Answer, "Nope, what fer?"

Dead guy's family tried to sue the Kerrville PD, but the civil court judge threw it out and threatened to jail their lawyer.

[Bawanna]

Just gotta love Texas.

[Baklash]

"civil court judge threw it out and threatened to jail their lawyer."
Love it. Should happen more often with all kinds of ridiculous lawsuits.

[DeaconKC]

Also, some departments will not allow officers to use their duty gun to practice off duty as crazy as that sounds. Illinois Department of Corrections qualifies using the 7,15 and 25 yard 50 round qualification with 70% passing. We qualify once a year with 4 optional practices.