.380 +p

[Oldcoyote]

I ran a few rounds from my CW 380 through the chronograph and thought it might be of interest.

Pro Chrono at 10 feet

Monarch, Academy, Privi Partizan 94 gr RN - average of 7- 855 fps, recoil mild

Precision One +P 90 gr XTP, average of 5 - 893 fps, recoil mild

Underwood +P 90gr XTP, average of 6, 1119 fps, recoil brutal. No like.

I have not tried Underwood REGULAR 90 gr XTP. When Shootingthebull410 fired these from a 2.8 inch barrel, he got 923 fps. This probably means they are about the same as the Precision One +P. Curious.

To minimize controversy, I concede the following:
There is no SAAMi standard for .380 +P and therefore no such ammo should ever be used
If you need .380 +P, you should just get a 9mm and have all your pants pockets enlarged

[b4uqzme]

^^ your concessions are wise... ;)

[erichard]

Pretty funny. I just bought the Underwood +P XTP but haven't tried it out yet. That's significantly faster velocity. I'd be curious to see what the expansion and penetration in ballistic gel is. I assume it would be even better than the Precision One that Shootingthebull tested, and much more reliable FBI depth penetration, and expanded to boot. Although you didn't like the recoil, for let's say range purposes, do you think it was manageable enough for follow up shots in self defense scenarios (where the adrenaline makes you ignore unpleasant recoil, I imagine)?

The other bullet that I think is worth testing for chrono and gel is the Underwood Controlled Fracture in +P by (bullet by Lehigh). I think that bullet, although expensive, may be the most potent stopper of all the bullets that reliably (hopefully) feed in the Kahr 380's. Its nose profile is more suited to the Kahr's asymmetric and narrow and steep feed ramp.

So what I actually carry is an XP in the chamber (since it doesn't have to feed for round 1), a Hornady CD in round 2 (top of mag) (since this position is prone to nose dive due to the tightness in the mag slowing the forward movement and the CD round being one of the best feeders), then Controlled Fracture rounds since these feed well and are more potent than the Hornady IMHO, then 2-3 XP rounds (because these are the most potent and only feed consistently in the lower couple slots of the mag). I'm switching from Lehigh's CF round to Underwood's +P version of that bullet to aid in consistent penetration depth. To my knowledge, though, there are no videos of the Underwood version. That could be the best, albeit most expensive, round for the Kahr, but we'd need a lot of data to support that (read: a lot of money spent on ammo), which I'm not prepared to do on my own. Haven't tried the +P Underwood's yet in the Kahr, although I have tried the +P's in 9mm and .40 and .45, and they seemed fine, though from heavier guns.

The latest bestest rounds on the market in 9mm and .40, IMHO, are the new Xtreme Defender (XD) rounds by Lehigh, which are plus P in 9 and normal charge in .40. The MAC channel on Youtube has an impressive video on the 9 by Underwood. It leaves a 2.50+ inch permanent wound track and is designed to not over-penetrate (so basically goes to a depth of 17-18 inches in ballistic gel from a full size pistol). But I expect no version of this for the .380 as the XD round is designed to slow the XP round down by delivering more radial forces via the scoops in the bullet, which acts to brake the bullet as well as leave a large wound track; there is no need to brake the XP round in .380 as it penetrates to a perfect depth. In 9 and 40, however, the XP over-penetrates, so the XD needed to come to market if the overall design was going to succeed. They are light bullets, so recoil is manageable for the 9 and 40. These wound tracks are bigger than .45 wound tracks with hollow point. Devastating, yet higher capacity than a .45. A Glock 17 with 18 of these XD's could be one of the most powerful guns on the market for duty or home defense. I still carry the Kahr 380 because it is just so tiny and comfortable.

[muggsy]

A .380 +P round through the head or heart won't kill you any deader than a standard velocity .380 round through the head or heart. Don't buy into the hype. Hard ball is almost guaranteed to reach vital organs. Stopping power is a myth. Only hits count.

[Oldcoyote]

erichard

Sounds like you are way ahead of me.

The recoil on the Underwood +P was really bad. I somehow hit the magazine release twice causing the gun to jam. Perhaps a younger man who is a gym rat would fare better.

I too wonder how the Underwood +P XTP would penetrate. The Youtube tests show some reduction of penetration as velocity goes up. Perhaps we need a 400 fps round to achieve 18" penetration.

[zredwire]

erichard

Sounds like you are way ahead of me.

The recoil on the Underwood +P was really bad. I somehow hit the magazine release twice causing the gun to jam. Perhaps a younger man who is a gym rat would fare better.

I too wonder how the Underwood +P XTP would penetrate. The Youtube tests show some reduction of penetration as velocity goes up. Perhaps we need a 400 fps round to achieve 18" penetration.

This is what I was going to say. Be careful with +P in JHP. This usually causes more expansion and less penetration. Not so bad maybe with a larger caliber that usually has adequate depth, but in .380 the JHP is usually right on the line of going deep enough (at least according to FBI specs). I personally think a non expanding bullet is best in .380. I use Underwood Xtreme Penetrators in mine (not the +P).

[erichard]

This is what I was going to say. Be careful with +P in JHP. This usually causes more expansion and less penetration. Not so bad maybe with a larger caliber that usually has adequate depth, but in .380 the JHP is usually right on the line of going deep enough (at least according to FBI specs). I personally think a non expanding bullet is best in .380. I use Underwood Xtreme Penetrators in mine (not the +P).

First, it is true that near the speed where a bullet goes from not expanding to expanding, the penetration will be less after expansion, sometimes dramatically less, even failing the FBI standards (true of many 380 rounds in particular). However, once you surpass that speed, any additional speed is going to make it penetrate further because once at max expansion, there's nothing further to slow it down. I'm thinking this is likely the case with the Underwood XTP +P vs plain jane XTP (which I think makes it about 12 inches in gel, expanded, so sometimes making the grade, and sometimes not according to Shootingthebull's final extra testing, where the XP bullets proved superior).

To Muggsy, I think you have a point in that FMJ round nose bullets are your safest bet from a reliability and penetration perspective (even over penetration to some degree), and I think that's a good take home point for notoriously unreliable pocket pistols. You want it to go bang every trigger pull. That said, take a look at this video and tell there are no magic bullets (this one in 9mm):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ

BTW, if LEO's miss their BG target in well over 60% of shots fired, miss them entirely keep in mind, then you relying on hitting the brain or heart might be some wishful thinking when the SHTF. I think in the majority of cases you are simply awaiting sufficient blood loss from the BG that he drops out of the fight. Big ragged holes lose blood faster. Times to incapacitation are not found in the overall studies of shooting incidents, because there's no way to get that data. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know bigger holes mean faster blood loss, equals earlier drop from the fight for the perps. More people die from 22 rounds than any other caliber. That's what shooting studies show, sure, but many of these folks die hours later from not going to the doctor for fear of being arrested (the 22 being used in a lot of crimes, they being cheap guns). In self defense, we're not interested in whether they die hours later. The only thing we're interested in is time to incapacitation, at which point they are no longer a threat.

[erichard]

<<Underwood +P 90gr XTP, average of 6, 1119 fps, recoil brutal. No like.
[...]
If you need .380 +P, you should just get a 9mm and have all your pants pockets enlarged>>

At 1100 fps, the .380 is essentially 9mm bullet, just slightly lighter. It has the same diameter as the 9mm, same speed, and maybe 20% less mass than the 115 gr 9mm (so less momentum). In the CW-380, you're getting 8 rounds of near 9mm force using the Magguts, 9 with the extended mag. Pretty amazing for such a small gun. I still have to try the Underwood +P out though. Maybe heavier recoil springs would help for +P, though i'm not sure where to find them.

[Oldcoyote]

Erichard
Stick your pistol out the window and fire it into the backyard real quick. Then report back.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[muggsy]

To Muggsy, I think you have a point in that FMJ round nose bullets are your safest bet from a reliability and penetration perspective (even over penetration to some degree), and I think that's a good take home point for notoriously unreliable pocket pistols. You want it to go bang every trigger pull. That said, take a look at this video and tell there are no magic bullets (this one in 9mm):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ

My P380 is not my primary carry, but rather serves as a back-up to my CM9. If I can't incapacitate the perp with 7 rounds of 9mm it's probably because I've run into someone who caught me totally unaware. I'm an old man and fairly set in my ways. I got to be an old man by not fokking with any old men. That's not to say that I'm not open to something new, but there is still a lot of magic left in in the .380 hard ball for which these guns were originally designed. You happened to pick one of my favorite You Tube channels to illustrate your point. I'll return the favor. I'm confident that you'll live to be an "old man", too. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNdX36P-3E

[kwh]

I am coming around to the idea better a BUG rather than reloads for a single carry. EDC is CM9. My Daughter took my CW380. Still have my KelTec P.32 ( with lanyard).

[erichard]

Thanks Muggsy, yeah, I'd seen that one before. I think he over generalizes, however, when he shoots just a few bullets and then claims he'll never use a hollow point in 380 (why? because he tested one bullet that only went 9 inches in gel). That Goldot was traveling ~980 fps and the bullet expanded. If you move that up to the Underwood speed of 1119 fps, it's going to go deeper, probably (certainly) deeper than the Precision One XTP which was going roughly 12 inches in other videos. So if it goes in somewhere in the 12-15 inch range, that's perfect for self defense purposes. The upper range for FBI requirements, in the 15-18 inch penetration range, is primarily included so that LEO's can penetrate windshields, car doors, etc. in something more approaching an offensive action. In self defense, we're not going to be shooting at cars, etc., and we don't want innocents hurt by over-penetration, so that Underwood round might be just perfect for penetration, and would expand bigger than FMJ (read: more/faster blood loss). I guess the question is, if its recoil is so high that followup rounds come too slowly, then perhaps a lower power FMJ would be better because you can get more rounds on target in the same amount of time, and more blood loss that way.

All this minutia becomes less relevant in 9mm and above, since they all get the job done. I will say, however, that that Xtreme defender in 9mm basically makes .40 and .45 obsolete, since the wound track is bascally twice as perfect as either .40 or .45 in HP's, with a higher round count to boot. That said, I do carry the .40 in Xtreme Defender, because I'm guessing the wound track is even bigger than the 9mm in the same bullet type.

The guy on MAC has good taste in guns. I just bought a Shield in .40, and it carries extremely well. Not as easy as the Kahr 380, but easier than any double stack. With Magguts, you can actually get 10 rounds in the extended mag I've heard (one more than advertised, though I've not heard this verified yet). That's the same as a G26, but .25 inches thinner than the G26. Thin is in. The Shield shoots very well with low recoil overall. Feels like a more expensive gun.

I've got brass littering the grass and walks around my house. The burglars will think twice before entering. Perhaps I should drip some blood red latex near the entries.

Shooting/guns are a good hobby going into retirement, as you can do it forever. I can remember shooting with my Grandfather, and I'm trying to convince my Dad to pick it up, as he lives in gun country ... Arizona. I showed him my Kahr one day, and he was impressed at how small it was.

[Bobshouse]

I showed him my Kahr one day, and he was impressed at how small it was.

I showed her my truck one day, and she was impressed at how big it was. :behindsofa:

[muggsy]

Erichard, keep talking. You might change an old man's mind. :)

[jocko]

Erichard, keep talking. You might change an old man's mind. :)

center of mass COM is for many different areas. I know for a fact that COM in muggsyt is his ass. He never had a heart, so that area is ouot, one of his lungs now is not doing well, so thats out. Shoot him in the ass and BINGO you get the prize. Just sayin

[happypuppy]

This is what I am using. Not +P fair expansion, excellent penetration

https://youtu.be/uFSuS_CJjVg


Someday. That’s a dangerous word. It’s really just a code for ‘never’.

[erichard]

Erichard
Stick your pistol out the window and fire it into the backyard real quick. Then report back.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

I shot the Underwood +P XTP in 380 today. I thought it was OK. I was gripping the gun fairly hard after your description, but it was surprisingly OK to me. Maybe because I've been shooting .40 lately, it seems rather tame in comparison. I think I will start carrying this at the top of the mag instead of Hornady CD, since it feeds well and probably penetrates further than CD, which is not +P.

[muggsy]

Ballistic gel test are an indication of bullet performance, but I prefer autopsy reports. :)

[jocko]

Ballistic gel test are an indication of bullet performance, but I prefer autopsy reports. :)

looks like some bad guys were testing out your theory this weekend in chicago. 6 killed. wanna bet what color the injured were. Just sayin. Where is our POTUS oh thatsw right, he is bad mouthing Putin and just scarin the dog sh!t out of him to..

[Oldcoyote]

Erichard
Maybe I need to do hand exercises.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[erichard]

" But I expect no version of this for the .380 as the XD round is designed to slow the XP round down by delivering more radial forces via the scoops in the bullet, which acts to brake the bullet as well as leave a large wound track; there is no need to brake the XP round in .380 as it penetrates to a perfect depth."

I guess I was wrong on that one, as Lehigh announced today that a 380 XD would be introduced in the coming weeks. Since the XP round penetrated fine, and the XD round has bigger divots/scoops, I'm guessing this round will deliver a wider diameter wound track, something higher than one inch wide, maybe 1.25? If so, the 380 moves up in the world of self defense. The other interesting part of it is that the tip is smaller and slightly more curved, so it might feed well in the CW-380. I hope so.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/12088561_922399604464382_4425997674486064173_n.jpg ?oh=717f236f4cee932149cc60c28510cbef&oe=5686A029

t

[erichard]

Lehigh site says 380 XD leaves 2.5 inch wide wound track with 14 inches of penetration!!! 65 grain 1150 fps.

Available now.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/products/380-auto-65gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=5863378564

[DavidR]

Lehigh site says 380 XD leaves 2.5 inch wide wound track with 14 inches of penetration!!! 65 grain 1150 fps.

Available now.

http://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/products/380-auto-65gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=5863378564

That stuff is a gimmick.


PS - I ordered a few boxes. :)

[erichard]

I ordered a box too.. Amazing stuff if true. I imagine Underwood will come up with a +p version that will penetrate 17.5 inches. These bullets beat any 9, 40 or 45 hollow points by the numbers. Hard to believe (and I do believe largely). Would love to see some videos. They are traveling very fast for a 380. I think it's smart to order, because they will get sold out once their stats get tossed around the forums, I imagine.

Just think, you might not need a gun other than the CW380 if you get 2.5 inch permanent wound diameter with 14 inches of penetration.

Let us know how they feed when you try them out.

[DavidR]

I ordered a box too.. Amazing stuff if true. I imagine Underwood will come up with a +p version that will penetrate 17.5 inches. These bullets beat any 9, 40 or 45 hollow points by the numbers. Hard to believe (and I do believe largely). Would love to see some videos. They are traveling very fast for a 380. I think it's smart to order, because they will get sold out once their stats get tossed around the forums, I imagine.

Just think, you might not need a gun other than the CW380 if you get 2.5 inch permanent wound diameter with 14 inches of penetration.

Let us know how they feed when you try them out.

I'll be running them through a Ruger LCP so I can't help you with the CW feed issue. I've stayed away from the Underwood offerings because the LCP is not rated for plus P. I'm not expecting any feed issues with the LCP but you never know. Hopefully we'll see a shooting the bull video soon.


Dave

[erichard]

I'm virtually 100% sure they'd be OK with the LCP. The XP's look worse for feeding than the XD's, and the XP's reportedly do well in the LCP (so the XD's should be a cinch). The Kahr is peculiar not only because of the very steep feed ramp, but also for the asymmetric feed ramp. Since there is not much ramp on the right side, if the bullet is oriented in an X fashion rather than + fashion, it can get sidetracked slightly. This new bullet may have a narrow enough tip and curved enough tip to fix that. When the XP came out and the Kahr didn't like them, I wrote Lehigh and asked for a bullet like the XD (smaller, curved tip). Worth a try.

[DavidR]

I'm virtually 100% sure they'd be OK with the LCP. The XP's look worse for feeding than the XD's, and the XP's reportedly do well in the LCP (so the XD's should be a cinch).

I've run a bunch of XP rounds through 3 different LCPs with no issues at all so I'm optimistic the XD rounds will be fine.

[erichard]

Looks like Lehigh put that XD .380 up for sale before they intended, as they haven't officially announced it, and they took it off the web site store. But I got a notice mine shipped today!

[DavidR]

Looks like Lehigh put that XD .380 up for sale before they intended, as they haven't officially announced it, and they took it off the web site store. But I got a notice mine shipped today!

I got a ship notice too. [emoji3]


Dave

[jocko]

wasin gander mountain about 3 weeks ago and boughty a 1000 rounds bulk of blazer brass 9mm for 2294 thought that was a great price, epecialy for gander,. Thius week I was in there snooping and they had the same 1000 blazer brass 9mm for 279$..Inflation moves fast at Gander mt. Course the first price of 229$ did not come withg a free finger swab, the 2794 price gets u a free fingert swab by their newly hired gal . they call her Monica. Just sain

[erichard]

Freedom munitions has a decent sale now, 10% off their own stuff, $7.50 shipping. I bought a fair amount of remanuf. 380, 9, and 45 for range use . Usually they only have 5% off on just one caliber. No Sales tax either.

The 380 XD bullets by Lehigh came today. Will probably test them in the Kahr on Monday. The tip is not as narrow as I had hoped, but it is slightly narrower than the XP, and is not as squared off as the XP. Hopefully it cycles.


wasin gander mountain about 3 weeks ago and boughty a 1000 rounds bulk of blazer brass 9mm for 2294 thought that was a great price, epecialy for gander,. Thius week I was in there snooping and they had the same 1000 blazer brass 9mm for 279$..Inflation moves fast at Gander mt. Course the first price of 229$ did not come withg a free finger swab, the 2794 price gets u a free fingert swab by their newly hired gal . they call her Monica. Just sain

[DavidR]

erichard - looking forward to your report on the XD. Mine should arrive Tuesday.


Dave

[DevinBreeding]

I have a new CW380 and purchased underwood +p XD for it. In my experience I am almost willing to say it feeds smoother than ball ammo when cycling by hand. Perhaps due to lighter weight bullet it is less weight to push forward. I've tried to orient them in such a way that they fail but haven't found a position yet. The new nickel plated starline brass underwood is using is nice too. Recoil is noticeable but manageable. My LC9 with HST +p 124 grain has more kick though and neither is unruly. I would love to chronograph them as underwood claims 1400 fp/s. I wonder what barrel length they use. 4"?

[muggsy]

Ballistic gel tests don't impress me. Human tissue doesn't react the way that gel reacts. Human tissue stretches. Ballistic gel tears. Those impressive temporary wound channels don't exist in real life. I've killed a lot of deer and never saw a temporary wound channel that looked anything like what we see in ballistic gel.

[DevinBreeding]

Ballistic gel tests don't impress me. Human tissue doesn't react the way that gel reacts. Human tissue stretches. Ballistic gel tears. Those impressive temporary wound channels don't exist in real life. I've killed a lot of deer and never saw a temporary wound channel that looked anything like what we see in ballistic gel.

I like them because they are essentially a really light and fast flat nose ball round. Lighter ball rounds tend to stop quicker so if I can get a fast lightweight bullet that doesn't overpenetrate but still penetrates decently and doesn't turn to powder like many other "exotic" options out there, I'm happy. I'm speculating but I feel like their speed and sharp edges decreases the chance of deflection as well. The holes on paper are close to 25% larger and looks like a four leaf clover shaped hole punch which may or may not mean much of anything. If anything the channels are a really clever way to reduce the weight of a ball round. I don't usually like exotic rounds but these have me hooked.

[Don F]

I ran a few rounds from my CW 380 through the chronograph and thought it might be of interest.

Pro Chrono at 10 feet

Monarch, Academy, Privi Partizan 94 gr RN - average of 7- 855 fps, recoil mild

Precision One +P 90 gr XTP, average of 5 - 893 fps, recoil mild

Underwood +P 90gr XTP, average of 6, 1119 fps, recoil brutal. No like.

I have not tried Underwood REGULAR 90 gr XTP. When Shootingthebull410 fired these from a 2.8 inch barrel, he got 923 fps. This probably means they are about the same as the Precision One +P. Curious.

To minimize controversy, I concede the following:
There is no SAAMi standard for .380 +P and therefore no such ammo should ever be used
If you need .380 +P, you should just get a 9mm and have all your pants pockets enlarged

This is good information, thanks for posting it.

I chronographed CCI Lawman 90 JHP in my Walther PPK several years ago. Using a Competition Electronics chronograph placed 15 feet from the muzzle, the Average Velocity was 937 fps. I've anchored a lot of varmints with the cartridge.