Lehigh 380 XD

[erichard]

So moving from the +P thread on this subject, I did try out the new XD round today. I pretty much got the same results that I had obtained with the XP rounds, which mainly involved jams with the top two rounds of the mag (which in this case was a 6 round mag upgraded with Magguts to 7 rounds). The bullet would hang slightly to the right at the top of the ramp before entering the chamber. I think it happens when the nose is in an "X" formation rather than a "+" orientation. The "X" can rest on the ramp only on the left side consistently, which pushes the nose slightly to the right, where there is no ramp support due to the asymmetry of the Kahr ramp. At least that's my theory. As to why the top two rounds in particular, I think they are very tight in the mag due to it being full, and there's more resistance against sliding forward than rounds lower down. The other bullets must be thrust up and in faster into the chamber.

So as before, I would not use these bullets in the top three slots of the mag, and I would keep them in a "+" orientation if possible. Maybe too fussy for many folks to trust I suppose. Would be good to hear from others to build up more data. I would use them as the chambered round.

Photo is not in great focus, but you get the idea.

Results may vary from gun to gun, so people need to test their own weapons.

[happypuppy]

It looks as if the bullet shape is at too steep of an angle for the ramp.


Someday. That’s a dangerous word. It’s really just a code for ‘never’.

[DavidR]

Sorry to hear that.

This is why I carry an LCP. The benefits of a Kahr 380, whatever they may be, are outweighed by its issues.


Dave

[erichard]

I will say that the gun was extremely accurate, probably more so than an LCP, and comfortable to shoot. I think like Dirty Harry once said, just gotta know your limitations (paraphrasing), and for this gun, it needs a narrow, curved nose as is found in XTP or FMJ or CF (by Lehigh, which I use the +P version from Underwood). Who knows, the CF may be a better round in any case, as you get 4 projectiles in one. With my old Seecamp 380, you were basically limited to only Federal HydraShock, period (apart from Silvertips which were impossible to find)...and that was for range ammo too. Got very expensive to practice with that gun. The Kahr's night and day better than that gun (and less than half the price).

Happypuppy, the only reason I don't agree that it's too steep a shape is that it works in the "+" orientation, which is actually slightly steeper but better centered on the ramp all the way up and into the chamber.

[muggsy]

Dave, the LCPs have plenty of problems, too. If you don't believe it just visit ....,

www.guntalk.com

[zredwire]

I guess I am just lucky. I have been using the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator in my CW380 for a few months now and have had zero feed issues. I also use Magguts.

[DavidR]

Dave, the LCPs have plenty of problems, too. If you don't believe it just visit ....,

www.guntalk.com (http://www.guntalk.com)

I understand that, I spend a lot of time on the Ruger forums and some LCPs have issues.

My experience: between my son and I we have 3 LCPs. Right out of the box they perform reliably with all types of ammunition. No fluffing, buffing, grinding, polishing or 200 round break in. My CW380 experience was a disaster and Kahr tried but couldn't "make it right".

[erichard]

I guess I am just lucky. I have been using the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator in my CW380 for a few months now and have had zero feed issues. I also use Magguts.

Trade ya.

How many XP rounds do you think you tried? Do you do anything special or not?

[erichard]

I have no doubt the LCP is more reliable across a wider spectrum of ammo.


I understand that, I spend a lot of time on the Ruger forums and some LCPs have issues.

My experience: between my son and I we have 3 LCPs. Right out of the box they perform reliably with all types of ammunition. No fluffing, buffing, grinding, polishing or 200 round break in. My CW380 experience was a disaster and Kahr tried but couldn't "make it right".

[zredwire]

Trade ya.

How many XP rounds do you think you tried? Do you do anything special or not?

I have shot 80 rounds of the XP through my 380. I have not done anything special except my gun is well broken in. I had put over 1000 rounds through it before I stumbled upon the XP bullets and gave them a try.

[erichard]

That's a lot of XP. I am impressed.

I have around 600 through mine. Maybe it will improve to that point

[muggsy]

If your happy with the LCP I'm happy for you, but this is the Kahr Talk website not the Ruger Talk website. I'm a Kahr man.

[happypuppy]

My CW 380 is not even broken ( 100 rds) in fully and I tried a box of the new hornady American handgunner with the XTP bullet and they feed no issues. Good test results too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFSuS_CJjVg



Someday. That’s a dangerous word. It’s really just a code for ‘never’.

[Ron AZ]

OP, may want to take out the magguts & try that ammo again. Magguts definetely make the rds tighter & exert more upward pressure. I have 2 P380's. Both were running smoothly with 3 brands FMJ & theXTP sd ammo. Magguts worked beautifully in my newer P380 and are still installed. Magguts was a disaster in the older P380 & I sent them back. Best I could describe it was it exerted too much upward pressure causing 2nd rd jams, failure to return tobattery, and resultant stovepipes with ammo that was ok before. Taking magguts out resulted in return to normal smooth operation. No good expanation why excellent in 1gun and lousy in the other.

[erichard]

I agree with what you are suggesting in many respects, although I am getting good functioning with all bullets but the XP and XD (in the upper slots of the mag). Let's say that this is the issue; by shooting off a few rounds, the lower rounds should feed better because the pressure/tightness is relieved, and this is in fact what I've found...sounds like you too. Being that I like the extra bullet, I just use XTP or CF or something with a similar profile in the top 3 or 4 slots of the mag, and use the XP or XD in the bottom 3 or 4. Seems to work OK, but keeping it in the "+" orientation may may or may not be required (works for sure in "+" orientation). So I get an extra round, some CF or XTP, and some XD in the chamber and at the bottom of the mag. I'm honestly not sure whether the XP/XD type is superior to the CF round in +P. If you get that CF +P center of mass, it will be devastating, and it won't be relying entirely on hydrostatic force, as those copper petals are like little knives shooting around the lungs/aorta/Vena Cava/heart. Hard to miss a vital organ with 4 projectiles per bullet fanning out with a minimum 6-7" penetration, 15" on the center one. I haven't seen a gel test video on the CF +P by Underwood/Lehigh, but imagine it would be impressive.

[DavidR]

Here are some comparison photos of the Lehigh XP (left) and XD (right).

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/2AD12ADC-8BAC-40C2-AC4E-C0A692AB71B8_zpsg8k8lugn.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/2AD12ADC-8BAC-40C2-AC4E-C0A692AB71B8_zpsg8k8lugn.jpg.html)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/C0A0C8EA-8773-4143-9B88-439462111488_zps4ssskltg.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/C0A0C8EA-8773-4143-9B88-439462111488_zps4ssskltg.jpg.html)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/7CAE9D92-55C0-436D-AE21-6B57AF688BF0_zpsi9uljnfm.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/7CAE9D92-55C0-436D-AE21-6B57AF688BF0_zpsi9uljnfm.jpg.html)


Dave

[Bobshouse]

Thank you Dave, couldn't find a pic anywhere.

[erichard]

The pictures make is seem like the tip is significantly narrower, but not really. The corners are rounded off briefly, but a mm or two lower, it's about the same diameter as the XP. It is an improvement though.

Dave, it sounds like a few people (on devensivecarry.com) got follow up emails from Lehigh with a 20% off coupon for a couple boxes worth. I didn't get one though. Not a real productive discussion there though.

[erichard]

Another new one:

http://www.ruger.com/micros/ammo/index.html?r=y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=103&v=1WW88w0xThY

The .380 version is going over 1300 fps (not in video). Maybe it will feed well, who knows. People are commenting elsewhere on how light these bullets are ("too light"), but it seems that the width of the wound track is dependent on speed and the size of those scoops in the bullets, not the mass of the bullet (relative to other self defense bullets). So I'm guessing they (Lehigh and Ruger) can lower the weight and up the speed and scoop size to get just the right amount of penetration and destruction. The Ruger bullets could eventually be cheaper to make. I would think the Lehigh ones are better at pushing material radially since they are focused that direction, whereas the Ruger ones look like they might spend some of that energy on spinning the round, which may not add to destructive capability meaningfully. But maybe the scoops can be bigger in that orientation. Probably so, although just 3 vs 4 in the Lehigh.

[DavidR]

Shot 20 XD rounds through my LCP today with no issues. These XD rounds must be better than the XP rounds because they make bigger holes in paper.
5 XD and 4 XP:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/David-R/E380ACEE-9B3C-4381-8EBE-810C440C1AB3_zpsemf6yfmq.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/David-R/media/E380ACEE-9B3C-4381-8EBE-810C440C1AB3_zpsemf6yfmq.jpg.html)