Hand Gun Stopping Power

[muggsy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWMGBCVtTrM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myKGVV7xVDI

[RRP]

Here's the link to Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWMGBCVtTrM

[muggsy]

Thanks RRP. I've made the correction to my original post. I guess I should have gone advanced and proof read my post. My bad.

[Longitude Zero]

More faux experts that like a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

[DavidWJ]

There's no such thing as "stopping power". There is a lucky CNS shot that will drop anything in it's tracks, but no where else will a bullet be able to stop, even a heart shot will allow a drug crazed killer several seconds to inflict a fatal injury on the shooter.

[Droolguy]

Having not watched the videos but reading what DavidWJ says on the subject... "Stopping Power" is just a term to describe the chance of shock or bloodloss induced incapacitation of the attacker.

It most certainly does exist and matter, it's just not a very large factor when compared to actual shot placement.

It's all about total wound area and causing enough blood loss to render the attacker unconscious, or causing enough damage fast enough to overload the nervous system and basically make the person faint.

As for a bullet being able to stop someone in their tracks it's impossible purely as a function of physics to do by something as small as a handgun or rifle bullet, however, non-direct CNS shots can actually instantly incapacitate or even kill a person through hydraulic shock (which also does exist, and is generally considered synonymous with "stopping power" these days) by causing enough disruption to tissue mass to once again overload the tolerance of the CNS.

In situation where the person is drugged or produces unusually high adrenaline levels (even for a survival situation), the CNS is literally incapable of shutting the body down because the chemicals it dumps to cause unconsciousness are overwhelmed by the chemicals already present.

Basically, if someone is high enough you can shoot them with a literal cannon and blow their leg off, and they *could* still hop towards you on their remaining leg until their brain ran out of things to metabolize and/or oxygen to function.

[muggsy]

The point to posting the videos was to give you some idea of what to expect in an actual armed confrontation and to illustrate how various bullets perform. A bullet to the central nervous system will stop an attacker immediately. A heart shot will stop an attacker within seconds, if not immediately.

[RRP]

Thanks RRP. I've made the correction to my original post. I guess I should have gone advanced and proof read my post. My bad.

No problemo; I've got your back. I didn't think you intended to post a video comparing minnow traps. It could have been a lot more embarrassing than a fishing gear video! ;)

[OldLincoln]

Hey, everybody knows a HydroShock bullet will cause a heart stopping hydrostatic blood shock like a 9.9 earthquake to the heart even if hit in the ankle. I know cause I read it on the.....

[Bawanna]

Crap I watched the whole damn minnow trap movie waiting for the part about the one shot stop.
Boy do I feel dumb.

[muggsy]

More faux experts that like a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

Faux Expert? Would you like to put your credentials up against his?

http://www.lawofficer.com/authors/dave-spaulding.html

[Droolguy]

I love how people resort to straw man attacks as soon as this comes up.

This is not opinion, hydrostatic shock does exist and has been proven to be a factor many times over. The United State Army has studies conducted on combatives in Iraq that prove it if you don't believe me. Hell, just about every medical study from a government agency on the subject in the last half-decade proves it existence.

Whether "hydroshock" ammo does or doesn't do what it claims is entirely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

ALL bullets produce some form of hydraulic shock, even wadcutters, the extent of which wildly changes with bullet shape and velocity.

[muggsy]

What do you mean by feel dumb, Bawana? :)

[Bawanna]

What do you mean by feel dumb, Bawana? :)

I don't feel near so dumb now, you didn't know who Jesse Stone was! Damn communist.....

[muggsy]

Ouch, you got me, Bawanna. :)

[Longitude Zero]

A heart shot will stop an attacker within seconds, if not immediately.

LOL. I have witnessed actual experience that says way otherwise. Heart shots are NOT always fatal. Saw several that survived due to proximity to the Trauma Center and fantastic surgeons. In another the 9mm put a hole in the right ventricle and the suspect continued to fire his weapon and actually attempt to reload it 30 seconds after the thru and thru heart wound.

[Longitude Zero]

I love how people resort to straw man attacks as soon as this comes up.

This is not opinion, hydrostatic shock does exist and has been proven to be a factor many times over. The United State Army has studies conducted on combatives in Iraq that prove it if you don't believe me. Hell, just about every medical study from a government agency on the subject in the last half-decade proves it existence.

Yes hydrostatic shock exists but its effectiveness in causing that person so afflicted to immediate cease their actions is WAY LESS than most untrained individuals pontificate.

[getsome]

I've never had to shoot a human being and I thank God for that but I have shot several deer with a 30-06 rifle and none of um ever fell in their tracks and 2 were shot through both lungs and the heart and I had to track those two for at least a quarter mile or more before I found where they bled out and died....Most normal size humans are similar to large deer and will do the same thing, especially if hyped up on meth....

[muggsy]

I've taken 28 deer in my lifetime and seven of those 28 dropped in their tracks from heart shots. Two more dropped in their tracks from neck shots when the spine was hit. Those that were hit in both lungs never went more than one hundred yards and most fell within fifty. An animal or man doesn't have to bleed out to be incapacitated. You only have to lose enough blood to pass out, or become disoriented. Animals like deer that live in the wild have far more strength and stamina than the average man.

[getsome]

Southern deer are tougher and more manly than wussyfied Yankee deer...:p

[Longitude Zero]

Faux Expert? Would you like to put your credentials up against his?

http://www.lawofficer.com/authors/dave-spaulding.html

As a matter of fact I would consider him an equal and NOTHING more. His vid is more of an OP-ED piece. Interesting but not the factual foundation to bet your life.

[Longitude Zero]

Irascible has returned. The only "real" expert I pay any attention to on Wound Ballistics is Dr. Martin Fackler all others are IMHO pikers.

[muggsy]

I wish that I had the confidence to put all of my money on one horse. I've never rely on a single source of information. Have a nice day LZ.

[muggsy]

Amazing Heart Facts (For your edification.) Please note how much blood the human heart pumps in a minute.

http://www.arheart.com/cardiovascular-health/amazing-heart-facts/

[Longitude Zero]

I've never rely on a single source of information. Have a nice day LZ.

There is hope for you YET!

[TheTman]

Would anyone argue with his choice of bullets? His three favorites are all very popular for members of the forum. SXT, HST, and Gold Dot. All have a devoted following here. And I believe they are some of the best available. So experience or credentials aside, he did come to a conclusion that most people can agree with.

[SlowBurn]

Had staked a lot on judgment re147 grain hp ammo then had integrity to admit wrong & change based on experience. Uncommon and impressive.

[DanTana]

Interesting article on this topic:

Power - The .45 ACP is a proven stopper. The only other handgun cartridge which has demonstrated stopping power comparable to
the .45 ACP is the 125 grain .357 Magnum jacketed hollowpoint. The Army moved to the .45 caliber bullet after the failure of the .38
Long Colt to stop the Moro tribesmen in the Philippines. Contrary to popular myth, the .45 ACP was not issued in the Philippines
during the Moro uprising, but the experience with the Moros led the Army to specify the .45 for its new autoloader. The Moros used
religious ritual and body binding to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness prior to battles, and the .38 Long Colt would
not adequately stop these highly motivated warriors. Moving forward a century, law enforcement is again looking to the brute force
stopping power of the .45 ACP to deal the current generation of criminals, many of whom use drugs which numb the senses, suppress
the response to systemic shock, and repress the survival instinct. While ballistics mavens may argue the merits of their particular pet
cartridges, few would argue that there is a better pistol cartridge than the .45 ACP. It has been decisively stopping fights for longer
than most of us have been on this troubled little planet.

[Longitude Zero]

Interesting article on this topic:

Power - The .45 ACP is a proven stopper. The only other handgun cartridge which has demonstrated stopping power comparable to
the .45 ACP is the 125 grain .357 Magnum jacketed hollowpoint. The Army moved to the .45 caliber bullet after the failure of the .38
Long Colt to stop the Moro tribesmen in the Philippines. Contrary to popular myth, the .45 ACP was not issued in the Philippines
during the Moro uprising, but the experience with the Moros led the Army to specify the .45 for its new autoloader. The Moros used
religious ritual and body binding to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness prior to battles, and the .38 Long Colt would
not adequately stop these highly motivated warriors. Moving forward a century, law enforcement is again looking to the brute force
stopping power of the .45 ACP to deal the current generation of criminals, many of whom use drugs which numb the senses, suppress
the response to systemic shock, and repress the survival instinct. While ballistics mavens may argue the merits of their particular pet
cartridges, few would argue that there is a better pistol cartridge than the .45 ACP. It has been decisively stopping fights for longer
than most of us have been on this troubled little planet.

Semi agree. BUT the new ammo coming out narrows the field between the 9mm and the 45ACP. If limited to hardball ammo the 45 is the way to go. Larry Vickers, Mas Ayoob and many others advise the 9mm due to higher capacity, almost equal ballistic performance, availability, lower recoil etc. The 45 will always be with us but the 9 is regaining its preimminent position and I see no chance it will be relinquished.

[Coppertop]

A .22LR has just as much stopping power as a .45ACP if the shot placement is correct.
I think some lose sight of marksmanship and shot placement (or should I say accuracy?) when talking about stopping power.

Then again your margin for error decreases if your round blows the bad guy in half.

[CJB]

Interesting article on this topic:

Power - The .45 ACP is a proven stopper. The only other handgun cartridge which has demonstrated stopping power comparable to
the .45 ACP is the 125 grain .357 Magnum jacketed hollowpoint. The Army moved to the .45 caliber bullet after the failure of the .38
Long Colt to stop the Moro tribesmen in the Philippines. Contrary to popular myth, the .45 ACP was not issued in the Philippines
during the Moro uprising, but the experience with the Moros led the Army to specify the .45 for its new autoloader. The Moros used
religious ritual and body binding to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness prior to battles, and the .38 Long Colt would
not adequately stop these highly motivated warriors. Moving forward a century, law enforcement is again looking to the brute force
stopping power of the .45 ACP to deal the current generation of criminals, many of whom use drugs which numb the senses, suppress
the response to systemic shock, and repress the survival instinct. While ballistics mavens may argue the merits of their particular pet
cartridges, few would argue that there is a better pistol cartridge than the .45 ACP. It has been decisively stopping fights for longer
than most of us have been on this troubled little planet.

The 38 long Colt is about as powerful as the 38 S&W, and less powerful than a .380ACP, or 38 special.

Its terrible.

The Moro were.... not so much fanatical, but self drugged.

But I'm a subscriber to big, heavy bullets... gimme a 45LC, 45ACP, or 44Special to get the job done. In that order.

[muggsy]

I'm a fan of the 45 ACP and always have been, but I carry my CM9 because it'd easier to conceal and carry. I don't feel under gunned with the 9mm, because I know that the ammo that I carry will expand to .45 cal. My next gun, if there is a next gun, will be a Kahr PM 45.

[Barth]

Handgun Stopping Power is always a funny topic for me.
Most of us know handguns are underpowered by nature.
We carry them cause it's not practical to walk around with a AK/AR or 12 gauge.
And the difference in performance of any service caliber handgun with modern high tech ammo is negligible.

I continue to believe most should;
1) Carry what they shoot the best.
2) Don't stop shooting till the threat is neutralized.

But that's just me.
Barth:)

[CJB]

When we get open carry (very soon I hope), I'll finally be able to strap on the Serbu!

[Bawanna]

Seems to be rotational, many lawmen who for several years have been devout 45 guys read the magazines and such and are now back on the 9mm is the ticket wagon.

I think it's good for business in the industry. I know adrenealine has a horrible effect on accuracy and also know that the number of rounds available directly effects the number of rounds used in a serious social encounter. Good or bad, that's your decision to make.

I got my 18 year stripes a few months back and we carried 9mm Beretta's when I started. Only took me a couple years to get to 40 cal Beretta's which wasn't my goal but a stepping stone.
4 or 5 years ago, finally made the final step to 45 Glocks (I wanted S&W M&P's ) but couldn't get leather and stuff.
I have no intention of trying to go back to 9's. If anything I'd try to go to 1911's but probably not a good idea. Young new cops are raised in tupperware and lots of ammo. Many of the guys are carrying 3 mags on their belt for the G21.
I kind of chuckle about it but better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Fortunately the pasture gate is in sight, it's open and the grass on the other side looks plentiful and green. I want to eat it not smoke it.

[diablo53]

Concerning the caliber debate, without a doubt, above all else ACCURACY! Seconded by capacity.

[Iggy]

As a LEO, I found the .41 Magnum 210 gr. JHP to be a very effective round. One shot stops in every instance.

I'm a big believer in as big and as fast as you can shoot accurately.

Just recently transitioned to the CW 45 for concealed carry. I was out shooting it this morning and continue to be impressed with the way it shoots, and my 45 ACP 230 gr LRN reload ain't no slouch.

I was shootin' at a knot hole in a fence post and purt near shot it plumb in half. Them old .45 bullets was blowin' chunks outta the back of the post like poop out of a goose.

PS.....It was my fence post.:cool:

[Bawanna]

Well that was plumb thoughtful of ya Iggy to shoot your own fence post.

I used to have a 41 mag I was quite partial too, still kick myself everyday for ever parting with it and they get a ton to replace it now days.

Still got my 45 Colts, never part with them. Not real Colts but Colt wannabe's, I live on the wrong side of the tracks to have the real deal.

[Iggy]

I never could afford Colt's either. Always wanted a Python, just cuz. Wanted a S&W Combat Magnum too but couldn't afford it on a new cop's salary. They cost $125.00 back then.

Read about Elmer and Bill likin' the .41 Magnum M&P. LGS snuck one in the gun counter as I walked in one day.. Out the door with it and a box of shells for $81.00.
He had it hid until I showed up. It woulda been gone if he had put it out before I got there. I know he ordered it just cuz I wanted one, and I'm sure I paid his cost for the gun. That's just the kind of feller he was.

Traded my Model 10 in on the deal and still had to make payments.
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/Iggy25/Mdl58.jpg
Best trade I ever made. Still got the old rascal. S&W Target grips cost $9.00 then. Couldn't afford that either so I destroyed the PC Magnas to get the hardware and made a set of my own. I call them PC Targets. The PC magnas are probably worth more than my gun these days.

We've been through some scrapes, and the ol 58 done it's job. We're still here.

[RRP]

We've been through some scrapes, and the ol 58 done it's job. We're still here.

Thanks for your service.