defense ammo ?

[03dime03]

I just got my pm9 last week and was wondering what kind of defense ammo ya'll use. Hornady 115 grain critical defense with the plastic piece looks fragile to me.

Thanks for your time

[jocko]

many like it, similar to corbon power ball which I shoot in my PM9. also like gold dots 124 grain also. Kahrs are not ammo sensitive, but test out the defense round of your choic and just stick with it. to many good defense rounds out there and we all have our likes and dislikes etc, so take all comments with a grain of salt and test out yourself. Reliability must be #1.

You might wantto go to the kahr tech section and hit on the PROPPER PREPPING OF YOURNEW KAHR. it might help you somewhat. welcome aboard to. we have some dandy smart guys here.One right now is in alaska fishing but he will return. like a lost penney..

[DKD]

Right you are Buck-A-Roo....many good loading out there these days for sure.
It is really hard to pick a bad one be it Ctritcal Defense, Corbon, Speer Gold Dots or Golden Sabre, Hydro Shocks or what have you.
I am sorta partial to the 124 grainers in the 9mm for the penetration, and velocity being up pretty close to the 115 grainers and with more foot pounds of energy.

[jocko]

I am told that kahr sites their 9's in with 124 grain ammo..

[03dime03]

Thanks again,Sure appreciate the help.

[aray]

I'm still working my way through that one myself. But I do have a slightly different take on the matter.

For me, I assume any modern JHP self defense round should perform well. If they don't expand well under most conditions I figure they won't last long in the market.

I think the larger issue would be: can I hit the target, under all conditions, multiple times if necessary until the threat ceases? Accuracy and speed are more critical factors in my judgement. So for me, rounds with a huge recoil that might be great for someone else would just slow me down for reacquiring my front sight. Other factors to consider: What is the flash at the end of the barrel like? You don't want your night vision to be impaired too much by a huge flash. And even the sound in a small enclosed room is a consideration - supersonic rounds will be much louder & you won't be wearing your hearing protectors.

I'm still experimenting with what works best for me. But this is sorta like buying a car. There is no one "right car" for everyone nor is there a right SD round. Shoot what works best for you, then practice practice practice up to the limit your budget allows.

[Tack]

I use Corbon DPX in all my self defense guns. 9mm 115gr.+P in the K9.
Expensive? Yes. But what's your life worth?

Whatever you use, make sure it's 100% reliable. And shot placement is key, there's no magic bullet.

[deadhead1971]

I have shot the following.

147 grain winchester personal defense
124 grain federal hydra shok
124 grain speer gold dots
124 grain +P speer gold dots "short barrel"
100 grain +P powr' ball

The +P "short barrel" speer gold dots is what I am using now. I thought the +P powr' ball kicked harder than the +P speer gold dots.

[joshh]

i've been carrying my pm9 with the winchester pdx 147gr. it is the round that the fbi is now carrying. they are a little pricey but supposed to be the best. i practice with the federa 115gr from walmart and they shoot good. no aiming difference when shooting the two & practicing with the feds is a LOT cheaper. http://img.youtube.com/vi/0uhBfA9Pqv4/0.jpg

[jlottmc]

Ok, I'm sold. I may have to invest in some of those hot rods in my chosen calibers. Any word on whether or not they come in .357 mag.? I've seen my 40 and 45, but nothing for my round gun. I've also become kinda partial to the Ranger loads as well.

[Swat_dude]

I have tried:

Gold Dot 124 grain +P
Corbon 100 grain Powerball
Corbon 115 JHP
Winchester Ranger 127 +P+ (Kahr said in an email +P's were fine but not +P+)

Stay away from the Corbon 115!!! My PM-9 failed to feed every other round due to the blunted bullet. I had one FTF with the Gold Dot at around 210 rounds through the gun but the next 76 were flawless. I have put 36 Winchester Ranger rounds through the gun with no malfunctions. After extensive research, I decided the Rangers would be my carry round but I won't be putting too many through the gun due to Kahr's statement on this ammo. After I shot the Rangers to verify functioning, I had about 370 rounds through my gun, much of it +P, so I went ahead and changed the recoil spring. I had to bend the open end of the spring to keep it from catching (read about this on here before). I always like to test fire a few rounds after I replace a part. I shot up a mag full of the Winchesters with the new spring and I have to say the recoil seemed to be alot less than I remembered a few days before when I first tested the 36 rounds.

[kahrseye]

I just got my pm9 last week and was wondering what kind of defense ammo ya'll use. Hornady 115 grain critical defense with the plastic piece looks fragile to me.

Thanks for your time

I use Hornady in my PM9. It is far from fragile. It's supposed to be one of the most consistent bullets on the market (in terms of expansion). They're pretty high tech.

[hobbydad]

I've used the following in my PM9, with no issues what-so-ever:

Speer 115gr. Gold Dot, 40 rds
Corbon 90gr. +p, 60 rds (some older stock I had, not even sure why/when/where I got it)
Corbon 115gr. +p, 40 rds
Corbon 115gr. +p DPX, 20 rds (a little cost prohibitive)

and just picked up but have not yet tried:

Corbon 100gr. +p Powrball, 40 rds

I'm going to use the DPX for carry and Powrball for the house.

[jocko]

THE DPX IS ONE HELL OF A GREAT ROUND.. not a paper puncher but sure great for defense. The all copper Barnes bullet is awesome and does what corbon advertises, and it is a hot round to..

[joshh]

from what i've been told, this round is just the evolution of the ranger. similar design but better bonding process. havent seen it in a .357 anywhere tho. me & a friend are actually trying to set up a homemade bullet test with the pm9 at the range but it has been too busy there lately.

[Swat_dude]

I've used the following in my PM9, with no issues what-so-ever:

Speer 115gr. Gold Dot, 40 rds
Corbon 90gr. +p, 60 rds (some older stock I had, not even sure why/when/where I got it)
Corbon 115gr. +p, 40 rds
Corbon 115gr. +p DPX, 20 rds (a little cost prohibitive)

and just picked up but have not yet tried:

Corbon 100gr. +p Powrball, 40 rds

I'm going to use the DPX for carry and Powrball for the house.

So no feeding issues with the Corbon 115 +P JHP? My was failing to feed every other round. No problems with Powerball, Gold Dot, Ranger and 200 break in rounds of Magtech +P FMJ so I assumed the problem was with the 115 grain bullet geometry.

[Shawn Dodson]

A word of caution about Hornady Critical Defense ammo - see: FirearmsTactical.com: TacticalBriefs, April 2006 (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm)

For an example of terminal performance of a bullet that's not designed to shoot through glass, not designed to shoot through a car door, and not designed to shoot through a wall, see: The Gun Zone -- CorBon .45 Powrball (http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html)

[Shawn Dodson]

THE DPX IS ONE HELL OF A GREAT ROUND.. not a paper puncher but sure great for defense. The all copper Barnes bullet is awesome and does what corbon advertises, and it is a hot round to.. When shot through laminated automotive windshiled glass the hollowpoint petals usually collapse or shear off, producing a bullet with a wadcutter profile.

What allows the DPX bullet to achieve the depth of penetration that it does is because of the large space between the expanded petals. The decrease in amount of tissue contacted and crushed by the bullet is offset by the cutting mechanism of the expanded petal points.

[hobbydad]

So no feeding issues with the Corbon 115 +P JHP? My was failing to feed every other round. No problems with Powerball, Gold Dot, Ranger and 200 break in rounds of Magtech +P FMJ so I assumed the problem was with the 115 grain bullet geometry.

It is a much shorter bullet, and the 90gr. & 115gr. share the same design, but I didn't have any problems in 5 boxs. I've used Corbon 115gr. +p in my Glocks for years. It seemed like it was the only +p ammo I could get my hands on for a long time. I could easily see why it would cause problems in some guns though, when you compare it side by side with any other 9mm round it looks like 1/4" is missing, lol.

Edit: Just a side note on that Powrball report; That's exactly why I purchased it, for in home defense. I live in an urban setting, and Im counting on it not overpenetrating in a miss. If it doesnt do it's job with the first hit, I have 6 more to try.

[jfrey]

I carry the Hornady CD load in my CW9 because I haven't had a single malfunction with it and the rounds shoot exactly to point of aim in my pistol. The only other round I tried was the Cor-Bon 125 gr. load and it shoots right at point of aim but recoil is sharper in the hand. Both are good rounds for PD.

[Swat_dude]

It is a much shorter bullet, and the 90gr. & 115gr. share the same design, but I didn't have any problems in 5 boxs. I've used Corbon 115gr. +p in my Glocks for years. It seemed like it was the only +p ammo I could get my hands on for a long time. I could easily see why it would cause problems in some guns though, when you compare it side by side with any other 9mm round it looks like 1/4" is missing, lol.

Edit: Just a side note on that Powrball report; That's exactly why I purchased it, for in home defense. I live in an urban setting, and Im counting on it not overpenetrating in a miss. If it doesnt do it's job with the first hit, I have 6 more to try.

I agree. I have: a Glock 357sig with DoubleTap Gold Dots for superior car door and windsheild performance in my truck, A PM-9 with Ranger T's for my front pocket gun(don't leave home without it), and a Glock 40SW with Powerballs for my home defense gun. Don't want the rounds penetrating drywall and doing a number on a loved one.

[Mr. S]

I agree. I have: a Glock 357sig with DoubleTap Gold Dots for superior car door and windsheild performance in my truck, A PM-9 with Ranger T's for my front pocket gun(don't leave home without it), and a Glock 40SW with Powerballs for my home defense gun. Don't want the rounds penetrating drywall and doing a number on a loved one.

Any round worth using will penetrate drywall,if it doesn't how will it penetrate deep enough in a person to end the fight?

[Shawn Dodson]

Umm, guys - according to the link I posted, Pow'RBall penetrates 17.5 inches after passing through 3/4" plywood. Results after passing through drywall will be similar.

Pow'RBall uses the same plastic sphere as the Glaser Safety Slug. When fired through drywall the sphere is firmly swaged to the nose and does not dislodge. The result is deep penetration for both Pow'RBall and Glaser after passing through sheetrock.

[MichSteve]

You should check out this guys ballistic test he has several on 9mm loads.

YouTube - Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr +P (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcwaMwB13Gg)

[hobbydad]

Umm, guys - according to the link I posted, Pow'RBall penetrates 17.5 inches after passing through 3/4" plywood. Results after passing through drywall will be similar.

Pow'RBall uses the same plastic sphere as the Glaser Safety Slug. When fired through drywall the sphere is firmly swaged to the nose and does not dislodge. The result is deep penetration for both Pow'RBall and Glaser after passing through sheetrock.

I did see that, but in reading their report they make it a little confusing.

"Doesn't always open up through through 3/4" plywood, either, penetrating no more than 6-to-7 inches."

I'm sure thats when it opens, and 17.5" is when it doesn't. Judging by the recovered weight of that round it was intact.

"In all cases, through all media, the jackets where blown off."

If that's the case, how many actually failed to open or stayed intact? It would seem that if the jackets seperated, the ball would certainly have had to as well. So in the extreme penetrations its just the remaining lead core? Again, that recovered round looked to be intact.?

Anyway, I have no magical or mystical expectations of any bullet. I'm sure in a given circumstance any bullet could go thru this or that. What I'm looking for is something that at the very least has a chance, if there's a miss, to not go from one room to the next (or one house to the next) with the same energy it was intended to produce on the target.

While I've heard nothing but good things about my current choice for a carry round (Corbon 115gr. +P XTP), it's secifically designed to do all the things I want a home defense round not to do, penetrate steel/laminated glass/ect., and continue on to expand. What I'm hoping for is something with a design that sheds weight and energy when encountering a barrier, or may possibly even stop. In my case I think the PowRBall still fits that bill.

Maybe I'm a little naive, but I like to think of it as optimism. :)

[Mr. S]

Umm, guys - according to the link I posted, Pow'RBall penetrates 17.5 inches after passing through 3/4" plywood. Results after passing through drywall will be similar.

Pow'RBall uses the same plastic sphere as the Glaser Safety Slug. When fired through drywall the sphere is firmly swaged to the nose and does not dislodge. The result is deep penetration for both Pow'RBall and Glaser after passing through sheetrock.

The link states "Insufficient penetration in bare gelatin makes this round inadequate for personal defense use."

Which is the point I have been trying to make.

[Mr. S]

I did see that, but in reading their report they make it a little confusing.

"Doesn't always open up through through 3/4" plywood, either, penetrating no more than 6-to-7 inches."

I'm sure thats when it opens, and 17.5" is when it doesn't. Judging by the recovered weight of that round it was intact.

"In all cases, through all media, the jackets where blown off."

If that's the case, how many actually failed to open or stayed intact? It would seem that if the jackets seperated, the ball would certainly have had to as well. So in the extreme penetrations its just the remaining lead core? Again, that recovered round looked to be intact.?

Anyway, I have no magical or mystical expectations of any bullet. I'm sure in a given circumstance any bullet could go thru this or that. What I'm looking for is something that at the very least has a chance, if there's a miss, to not go from one room to the next (or one house to the next) with the same energy it was intended to produce on the target.

While I've heard nothing but good things about my current choice for a carry round (Corbon 115gr. +P XTP), it's secifically designed to do all the things I want a home defense round not to do, penetrate steel/laminated glass/ect., and continue on to expand. What I'm hoping for is something with a design that sheds weight and energy when encountering a barrier, or may possibly even stop. In my case I think the PowRBall still fits that bill.

Maybe I'm a little naive, but I like to think of it as optimism. :)

I believe you mean Corbon 115+p DPX.
I would recommend you ditch the PowRBall and use the DPX for home and carry.
If you do need to use your firearm in your home I would think you would want the best round available to stop the threat as quickly as possible.
Do you want to rely on an underpentrating round to defend yourself and your family?

[Shawn Dodson]

I did see that, but in reading their report they make it a little confusing. The report indicates that terminal performance, in anything other than bare flesh, is inconsistent and cannot be relied upon.

Hornady Critical Defense MAY perform in a similar manner, although nobody knows due to lack of testing. I suggest avoiding Hornady Critical Defense as a general-purpose defense cartridge until more is known about its terminal performance. It MAY NOT perform as the user expects. It may not perform well in many commonly encountered defensive applications.

As for CorBon DPX ammo, it costs about $2.00 per cartridge (approximately $36-$40 for a box of 20 rounds). Whereas Black Hills Ammunition loads the same Barnes solid copper bullet in its TAC-X cartridge and sells it for less than half the cost of Glaser DPX (about $50 for a box of 50 rounds).

IMO, there's not enough difference in terminal performance between CorBon DPX/Black Hills TAC-XP and premium Speer, Winchester and Federal handgun ammunition to justify the expense. Identically performing Speer, Winchester and Federal ammunition can be purchased for about $25 per box of 50 cartridges, about 1/4 the cost of Glaser DPX and 1/2 the cost of Black Hills TAC-XP. (Glaser DPX and Black Hills TAC-XP is like using premium gas in car that doesn't need it - there's no performance to be gained from the added expense.) FWIW, I use Speer Gold Dot, which I purchase from http://www.policehq.com/Ammunition

Black Hills TAC-XP and CorBon DPX can be purchased directly from Barnes Bullets at http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/collections/black-hills-pistol-ammunition/ and http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/collections/corbon-dpx-pistol-ammunition/, respectively.

Cheers!

[OldLincoln]

After looking for a very long time, yesterday I found Federal HST 9mm 147gr +P LE P9HST4 at KylesGunShop.com and bought 500rds for $320. He should still have some but hurry if that's your preference. I thought it was a good price also with retail defense rounds going for a $1 a round now days.

CA has a very restrictive ammo law going into effect 2/1/11 making it illegal to guy ammo online. Buying it in a store requires a registration with fingerprint that they have to keep for 5 years. While I won't commit a crime, I don't want my name tied to a list of purchasers of whatever kind of ammo was used.

[hobbydad]

Yes, my mistake on the XTP typo, I did mean DPX. I believe the few boxs I purchased from Cabelas where $35 and change, so yes it is expensive. I will look into the Black Hills though. Thanks for info, and the insight.

[dfloresjr]

I like the Speer Gold Dot in 124+P. Recoil wasn't nearly as bad as I thought, only slightly snappier than Winchester White box 115. NYPD uses them , so if it's good enough for them...

[jocko]

I like the Speer Gold Dot in 124+P. Recoil wasn't nearly as bad as I thought, only slightly snappier than Winchester White box 115. NYPD uses them , so if it's good enough for them...

an excellent round, really is...:D

[copterdrvr]

I'll take the powerball, I don't want to injure anyone else if I have to use my firearm. I've already made the determination that if I have to fire my weapon in selfdefense, I will fire it more than once. I'm sure the Powerball will do what is necessary. Sometimes I think you guys think we're shooting elephants. Spent 20 plus years as an EMS helo pilot and from what I saw, most bad guys go down real quick. I don't want to hurt any innocents-just bad guys.

[Mr. S]

I'll take the powerball, I don't want to injure anyone else if I have to use my firearm. I've already made the determination that if I have to fire my weapon in selfdefense, I will fire it more than once. I'm sure the Powerball will do what is necessary. Sometimes I think you guys think we're shooting elephants. Spent 20 plus years as an EMS helo pilot and from what I saw, most bad guys go down real quick. I don't want to hurt any innocents-just bad guys.

I'm not sure why people think powerball is "safer" than a conventional hollowpoint.

If you miss it will injure someone for sure, the problem is in a gun with a limited capacity I don't wan't to be wasting my time with ammunition that underpenetrates by design.




Corbon PowerBall not very good - XDTalk Forums - Your XD/XD(m) Information Source! (http://www.***********/forums/ammo-can/106183-corbon-powerball-not-very-good.html)

[jocko]

agree Mr. S the power ball for me is just a round that acts like a fmj in as far as feeding properly goes. It is not a glazer type round but a full hollow point with a teflon rounded tip inserted to give better feeding, especially in some guns that are hp ammo sensitive. It is no safer round to shoot that a speer gold dot or corbon 125 h.p. round, ..

[Bawanna]

Where's Ryoung on this one? I'm pretty sure he said he carries the powerball exclusively and been waiting for his response on this one.
I'm not familiar with it and haven't seen it in my area although I haven't really looked hard either. I'm a devout Gold Dot fan in all things that go bang.

I'm feeling accomplished, gone just 10 days and I had 979 new post to meander thru. Glad you guys kept it hopping around here. Some good stuff.

[OldLincoln]

So, what about the Federal HST 9mm 147gr +P LE for SD?

I have some in the mail and got it because it is: 147gn = heavy & a little slower - like the 230gn .45; +P = to kick the speed up to closer to the .45; HST = because whatever it lacks will hopefully be made better with this bullet.

My angle is that is the .45 has more stopping power but I carry the 9mm, I can make it a 9mm + 1/2 with this cartridge. Am I right? I'd like your opinion even though I've already bought it.

[Will]

I dont have any HST but sure would like to get some...... I want the 9mm +P 147 as well.... Done some research on them and like what I've seen.

[OldLincoln]

I dont have any HST but sure would like to get some...... I want the 9mm +P 147 as well.... Done some research on them and like what I've seen.Well, Kyle at KylesGunShop.com (http://www.kylesgunshop.com/) may still have some available. I like that he shows how many of each he has in stock, and it looks like he got a new shipment in the last couple days. Although this is my first purchase with him, he seems like a good guy. My shipment is due to arrive tomorrow.

[texjames]

i've been carrying my pm9 with the winchester pdx 147gr. it is the round that the fbi is now carrying. they are a little pricey but supposed to be the best. i practice with the federa 115gr from walmart and they shoot good. no aiming difference when shooting the two & practicing with the feds is a LOT cheaper. http://img.youtube.com/vi/0uhBfA9Pqv4/0.jpg
The Winchester 147 gr JHP Bonded PDX1 is my carry ammo.
Been breaking in with Winchester white box 115 FMJ. Federal from wally world 115 FMJ. I shot a whole box of Fed Hyda Shock 147 gr without problems too. I have 2 box's of Remington Golden Saber 124gr i have not tryed yet also.

[DKD]

I can't comment on the Winchester 147's, never used them and may be fine but all that I had heard from my brother in law {in law enforement} is when they carried the 147's there wasn't enough velocity for any meaningful and consistant expansion. The department then went to Plus P 124 grainers and faired alot better. Keep in mind they were also shooting a service size pistol with the corresponding longer barrel and we are not talking a five inch barrled weapon. Most of us Kahr carriers are toting the PM's with a three inch tube.
This also mirrors my results over the 35 plus years I have been reloading and chronographing loads. You really need the velocity at or above 950-1000 fps to hope to obtain any consistant bullet upset and the 9mm needs bullet upset to transfer its energy to the target otherwise all you get is excessive penetration. This is why my friends the 45 ACP is so damn effecient and effective. It does it's work with mass and diameter and doesn't have to expand much to transmit its energy to its intened target.
Sorry you can't change the laws of physic's...the 9mm will can never be transformed to be a 45 ACP by using a 147 grain slug...the math doesn't add up. Don't confuse what appears to be equal energy with round effeciency.

[joje]

... heard from my brother in law {in law enforement} is when they carried the 147's there wasn't enough velocity for any meaningful and consistant expansion.

i think this was true 10 years ago, but from what i've read, current production 147 grain bullets are designed to open up at much lower velocities and perform quite well in gel tests.

what really surprises me is how people report 147 grain recoil to be so much more manageable than lighter loads. if anything, heavy slow loads tend to carry more momentum than light fast loads, and should by newtonian physics subsequently produce MORE recoil if anything. i suppose recoil from escaping gases could have part in it but i still find it counterintuitive.

[OldLincoln]

It's really hard to know what to select for SD. Seems to be this one is the fad now and a new one a fad next year. I did some homework and concluded that the HST is well thought of and popular with agencies as of a couple years ago. Several individual tests results are available that point to the 147gn weight as preferable. So I concluded I wanted the HST in 147gn. The +P is to make it a bit faster out of the 3".

This test below is in gel which I know is a limiting factor for testing but just for sake of comparison of penetration and expansion, you'll see the 9mm HST holds up fairly with the .45 FOR A 9mm. No wars PLEASE! Since I carry a 9mm I use 9mm ammo - okay?

So, I have a bunch that arrives today and it's what I will carry for a very long time (although I might sell some).

The LE Testing at Ft. Collins in 2008:
Bare Gelatin @ 10 Feet
Bullet__________Caliber/Weight____Penetration_Expansion (in.)
Federal HST______9MM 147 gr._______13.25______0.821
Winchester SXT___9MM_+P_127 gr.___13.25______0.641
Remington GS_____9MM 147 gr.______15.00_______0.593
Speer GDHP_______9MM +P 124 gr.____13.25______0.665

Federal HST _____45 Auto 230 gr.____ 12.25_______0.995
Winchester SXT___45 Auto 230 gr.____11.00_______0.960
Remington GS_____45 Auto 230 gr._____13.75______0.725
Speer GDHP_______45 Auto 230 gr._____13.50______0.735
Federal Tactical ___45 Auto 230 gr._____13.50______0.715

[DKD]

JOJE, You are correct in your assumption and probably also right with regards to bullet construction being alot better. However most tests are done in pressure barrels or pistol with 5" tubes not 3". You will give up some velocity regardless. It is damn hard to drive a 147 grain 9mm bullet much past 1000 fps even from a 4" or 5" barrel. All this being said, some tests would be in order and some field reports back from live encounters should put things to rest.

[DKD]

Old Lincoln,

I would not nock the 9mm I carry one from time to time due to my dress of the day. A 9mm can be with the right ammo an effective stopper with descent hits. I do like the cost of practise ammo over the cost and weight of my 45 ACP....ouch! That is why I reload, especially the jacketed variety.
One thing I will say that I haven't in previous posts, is the added velocity of the 9mm does leave a healthy tempoary wound cavity which does disrupt tissues and internal organs....can't fault it there for sure. This is the whole reason for well designed bullet in the 9mm to get better utilization of it's foot pounds of muzzle energy, in its transferance to the target rather than over penetrate and waste all that energy. AHAHHHH Watson ....there lies the key to the mistery.

[Will]

Like mentioned above, the bullets today have been tweaked so much that expansion will do well at lower velocities..... The Federal HST 147grn jackets have such deep long serations down the sides I would think that thing would expand if you just threw them from your hand.....

[joshh]

the feds & leo's i know say pdx is the best overall round. the bonding of the pdx is superior and helps prevent separation and fragmenting. plus it is designed to expand and transfer energy rapidly when it hits soft tissue which helps prevent ricochets and passthru. i cant imagine any misplaced round is "safer" than another.

[copterdrvr]

. i cant imagine any misplaced round is "safer" than another.

Nor do I. I am not in law enforcement and can't see myself being in a situation where I'm having to shoot through stuff to protect me or my family. If I can't see them to shoot, they can't see me either. I don't want to miss a shot at a BG and hit my next door neighbors kid sleeping in his bedroom-if at all possible.

It just seems that the round has less chance of punching through that much stuff than "normal" jacketed bullets. I actually use the ones that are supposedly used by Air Marshalls-fired one into a watermelon-OMG, the destruction was total as it just blew up!!!!!

I hope someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but from talking to my police buddies it seems that most BG's soil themselves when the SEE there "victim" has a weapon, let alone have it shot at them. Sure, there are some hard @sses who've killed before and will fight but sounds like most crap and run.

Of course we always have to be prepared for the one's who stand and fight. The terminal effects of those bullets are actually, well, pretty gruesome-if they work llike they're supposed to! ;)

I also like the "fmj" profile-if I can shoot any hollowpoints in my auto's with no jams (and I can), I know these will chamber up with no problem. Heck, I'm not a salesman for these guys-another bullet I use that most of you guys don't seem to care for (for the same reasons) is the Hornady CD and again, I like them for the same reasons. I just dont feel the need for heavy bullets fired at +P pressures, muzzle flash, and recoil for a target averaging no more than 21 feet away.

Heck, if the BG is farther away than that I'll be heading for cover if I can! Across the street or parking lot gunfights won't look too good in a court of law under the claim of "self-defense" in my humble opinion. If it isn't "in your face" type contact, I think the shooter could spend a looong time in court. Heck, look what happens to LE's when they have to use a gun.

[500KV]

That is some good info. there O.L.
The Fed. HST is indeed a great round.

Another "slight" advantage is the fact that Federal has the softest primers going and that's good in striker fired guns.

I like every "edge" I can get.

[OldLincoln]

I was surprised last night when I got out my Colt LW Commander just to look it over. It's been many months in the safe and I've missed it. It wasn't as clean as I do now so I did a super clean up and discovered it had 4 rounds of Federal Classic 185gn Hi-Shok JHP that was in it when I inherited it.

I can tell that is what they are because a few months later that year (1998), I bought a box of the same looking cartridge. I'm sure I asked the gun shop guy to get me a box of the same that dad had bought. I wasn't a gun guy in those days and there's only 2 rounds gone from the box used to top off the mag.

I'll carry the Commander for a few days to see how it feels. I'm used to my PM9 which is about 60lbs lighter loaded but my Perry suspenders may be up to the task.

[Bawanna]

I was surprised last night when I got out my Colt LW Commander just to look it over. It's been many months in the safe and I've missed it. It wasn't as clean as I do now so I did a super clean up and discovered it had 4 rounds of Federal Classic 185gn Hi-Shok JHP that was in it when I inherited it.

I can tell that is what they are because a few months later that year (1998), I bought a box of the same looking cartridge. I'm sure I asked the gun shop guy to get me a box of the same that dad had bought. I wasn't a gun guy in those days and there's only 2 rounds gone from the box used to top off the mag.

I'll carry the Commander for a few days to see how it feels. I'm used to my PM9 which is about 60lbs lighter loaded but my Perry suspenders may be up to the task.

Sometimes weight is comforting. Clint Smith says a gun is to provide comfort, not be comfortable, or something close to that, and theres nothing in the world that feels better in the hand than a Commander. At least non living inanimate objects. Angels again, darn I need the cure.

[OldLincoln]

Well, you know the song. "Kiss an angel good morning, love her like the devil all night long".

[Bawanna]

Well, you know the song. "Kiss an angel good morning, love her like the devil all night long".

One of my favorite tunes but I got in a Klan duke out last time the subject arose. My opponent was "Black" flagged.
Nice song though and words to live by. If you want to be a king you need to treat your woman like a queen. I try but fear I'm negligent sometimes.

[OldLincoln]

After all those years in love with my career and my wife more like a weekend lover, I'm enjoying her being in the next room. Can't get a glass of water without seeing her and giving her a smile or wiggle her toes. Now I rarely think about the past career but think of her all the time.

[Bawanna]

After all those years in love with my career and my wife more like a weekend lover, I'm enjoying her being in the next room. Can't get a glass of water without seeing her and giving her a smile or wiggle her toes. Now I rarely think about the past career but think of her all the time.

I'm tearing up here, it appears you've got one of lifes mysteries figured out.

[Mr. S]

Nor do I. I am not in law enforcement and can't see myself being in a situation where I'm having to shoot through stuff to protect me or my family. If I can't see them to shoot, they can't see me either. I don't want to miss a shot at a BG and hit my next door neighbors kid sleeping in his bedroom-if at all possible.

It just seems that the round has less chance of punching through that much stuff than "normal" jacketed bullets. I actually use the ones that are supposedly used by Air Marshalls-fired one into a watermelon-OMG, the destruction was total as it just blew up!!!!!

I hope someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but from talking to my police buddies it seems that most BG's soil themselves when the SEE there "victim" has a weapon, let alone have it shot at them. Sure, there are some hard @sses who've killed before and will fight but sounds like most crap and run.

Of course we always have to be prepared for the one's who stand and fight. The terminal effects of those bullets are actually, well, pretty gruesome-if they work llike they're supposed to! ;)

I also like the "fmj" profile-if I can shoot any hollowpoints in my auto's with no jams (and I can), I know these will chamber up with no problem. Heck, I'm not a salesman for these guys-another bullet I use that most of you guys don't seem to care for (for the same reasons) is the Hornady CD and again, I like them for the same reasons. I just dont feel the need for heavy bullets fired at +P pressures, muzzle flash, and recoil for a target averaging no more than 21 feet away.

Heck, if the BG is farther away than that I'll be heading for cover if I can! Across the street or parking lot gunfights won't look too good in a court of law under the claim of "self-defense" in my humble opinion. If it isn't "in your face" type contact, I think the shooter could spend a looong time in court. Heck, look what happens to LE's when they have to use a gun.

Is this a serious post?
I don't even know where to begin.