"Kahrs can't take the strain" of intense shooting classes

[JohnR]

The gauntlet has been thrown.

Two trainers in a forum have declared Kahrs inferior for gunfighting. One said an MK9 stovepiped in a class, and Kahrs can't cut the mustard. Another said


In a course designed to teach people how to stay alive with a firearm, encompassing a lot of rounds burst fired repeatedly from off balanced positions shooting one handed, a fighting gun is going to fair better overall vs the small sd semi's that are usually fired two handed during practice sessions. I think that makes a big difference, with most practicing two handed nearly exclusively, while the course of fire works through 90% of the weekend utilizing one handed on the move skills.

http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?55744-Suggestions-for-new-concealed-carrier-as-to-first-handgun-purchase

What do the fine gentlemen of Kahr Talk have to say about that?

[Bawanna]

I was ok with it until the guy said she switched to a Glock 19 and did ok. I don't figure the 19 is in the same corn field as a MK9.

Again the keeping up under their scenarios might be a real challenge to any small compact gun.

What we don't know is if any of these guys had any experience with Kahrs either, even seasoned shooters that shoot Kahrs for the first time need a little bonding time.

[JohnR]

Will any of us ever be in a sustained firefight shooting 200 rounds at a time, rolling around on the ground? Sure, it could happen, but the overwhelming majority of self defense gun scenarios are the well documented 3 rounds and the creeps run away.

[SlowBurn]

Its true that a bigger gun is less prone to limp wristing than a little gun. And you can't limp wrist a revolver at all. So if that's a problem someone can't get over, they should probably carry a larger semi-auto, or maybe a j-frame.

Also, little Kahrs may not be ideal for training weekends, but they're great for every day concealed carry by us regular people. If you read the "Armed Citizen" feature in American Rifleman, its easy to see the vast majority of situations in which a regular citizen needs his gun are not running gun battles involving "a lot of rounds burst fired repeatedly from off balanced positions shooting one handed." It may be fun go to a weekend with these "experts," and if I did I'd bring a service weapon like my G17 because its more suited. But IMO their training does not involve realistic scenarios for most of us.

[yqtszhj]

What? Did you see where they said the g19 was subject to limp wristing when shooting from the hip? Thats heresy. (Unless they use my g19 that is subject to limp wristing more than any of my kahrs.)

Maybe i got lucky but all my kahr 9mm guns shoot as fast as i can pull the trigger and wont fail due to limp wristing even if I try, and I did try. I wonder how many rounds they had through the MK 9 and if it was new and not broken in or dirty? That could be the case too.

One of my kahr 45s was slightly subject to ftfeed during breakin but after that and a good cleaning its good to go. I think it was the cm45.

[berettabone]

Will any of us ever be in a sustained firefight shooting 200 rounds at a time, rolling around on the ground? Sure, it could happen, but the overwhelming majority of self defense gun scenarios are the well documented 3 rounds and the creeps run away.
I might be doing the rolling around part.............................................. ............

[JohnR]

I've seen a Youtube video of someone demonstrating a G19 limp wristing. It can be done but it takes some effort. Maybe if your arm is injured.

[muggsy]

I have but one word to say. Bullpucky!

[jocko]

I have but one word to say. Bullpucky!

Its BULLSH1T mUGGSY, so get to the point. Bull Pucky sounds like a hockey game between animals.

That being said,opinions are like a$$holes, we all have one, If a sooting class toled me tha the kahrts was not a good fighting gun, I would ask for my moneyt back and walk out. If they would not give me my money back, before I walked out I would use the mens restroom and crap everyt place but the stool. Stupidity comes in all sizes and sexes. Anyone can print an article and it seems to make these gun webb sites. You can limp any fkking so lets get thaty straight. If u limp a G19, then you should probably giv eup shooting, but I have done it before, and found out that trying to lijmp produces no rsults, but norml shooting can produce limping, but things have to be right. I have many thousandes of rounds thru my PMJ9 and if I didn't trust it 150% it would not be in my front pockiet 24/7. As much as I luve the G1`9, the fokker will not ride in my front pocket. The G43 struggles to fit there even.

I like glocks but if you want to see all the internal changes and mods that glock has made over the years, look up their webb swites of glock changes thru the years. Not sure glock knows what a recall is either. I shoot with a state cop who at one time carried the G17, and tried my PMJ9 and handed it right back to me after a few magazines. His commet was, nice gun but I can't hit jack sh!t with it compared to my G17. I joked with him and tld him my PMJ9 would fit in his G17 magwell, and he nodded his head. People hate glocks, People hate kahrs, People hat kel tec's. ( I being one of them)... Just sayin

[getsome]

I hate Brussel Sprouts

[Armybrat]

Will any of us ever be in a sustained firefight shooting 200 rounds at a time, rolling around on the ground? Sure, it could happen, but the overwhelming majority of self defense gun scenarios are the well documented 3 rounds and the creeps run away.

Or - the well documented 3 rounds and I run away.....ASAP!

[GLOCKROCKER]

I hate Brussel Sprouts

+1 on the brussel sprouts....I can't hit sh1t with those things! But they do conceal well.:p

[ripley16]

The gauntlet has been thrown.

Two trainers in a forum have declared Kahrs inferior for gunfighting. One said an MK9 stovepiped in a class, and Kahrs can't cut the mustard.


What do the fine gentlemen of Kahr Talk have to say about that?

I look at this as being normal, not unusual at all. The fact is that most handguns don't "cut the mustard" in adverse or harsh conditions. It's why really good, reliable duty guns are fairly few in number. Most people that enter into the more strenuous, high round count shooting classes experience some failures with their primary handgun. Most take two guns for that reason. I wouldn't loose sleep over this. In the real world Kahrs do OK. I wouldn't want to go to war with one but for general thug protection, a Kahr is a good choice.

[jocko]

a cop can carry a hugh desert eagle on his side an no one cares, but we as civilians just don't have that priveledge, so small is good, small also brings with it issues that the bigger guns normllyt don't. If it ain't on your person, when u need it, then it is as worthless as titts on a boar. Ican say my PMJ9 has over 34K rounds through it and I have not broken anything, springs are replaced as needed, but I trust it completely, If I broke a part tomorrow, I wouud just replace the part, not rocket science, sh!t happens, sometimes more than once for some, I have never set out to shoot my PMJ9 constantly until it breaks a part or starts to jam up due to being dirtyt etc, Just not my style and to me doesn't orove much outher than I just wasted X amount of rounds..I luv my PMJ9 , it is small and we have seen in the past years some darn nice ultra compact 9's beig made but to my knowledge none as light or as small as the PMJ9 so to me that speaks highly of the kahr line of ultra compact. I ca't think of the one all steel 9 that is smaller and ligfhter, but also ammo finicky to, but over a grand to own, but a nice gun none the less,. Age makes me forget alot of things. It willcome tome aftert I post this...

[getsome]

The Kimber SOLO....Won't shoot anything BUT +p JHP rounds and is finicky with which brand works....No range ammo will shoot in one

[Alfonse]

I hate Brussel Sprouts

That should be a thread all on its own. I hate them too.

[DavidWJ]

They're great with mustard or horse radish! Have some canned corned beaf and brussel sprouts and you've got a poor man's "St Patricks Day" dinner!

[CJB]

What do the fine gentlemen of Kahr Talk have to say about that?

Ain't doodly-squat. The gun you have with you, the one you have confidence in, the one you've shot lots and can manipulate from muscle memory is the gun to trust.

Its more than training, it goes beyond mere training. Training is ok, don't get me wrong, but you gotta shoot, dry fire, shoot, manipulate, manage, shoot, and shoot some more to get beyond even second nature and into the instinctual realm.

I'm there with my own 1911's, or those that conform to the govy pattern. Whale tale and paddle levers... not my bag. But I can pull my own Officers or Springfield, or full size, or Commander, out of my back pocket, or mid back holster carry and nail a target in the middle at 7 yards without much trying. That's 30 plus years of manipulative familiarity.

I'm not there with my Kahrs, yet... I like them over the 1911's to carry due to size and weight. And I'm learning, my muscles are learning, I'm getting better. Not quite as quick, but.. its gettin better. I won't get 30 years of practice with a Kahr. Not that much time left.

[muggsy]

Its BULLSH1T mUGGSY, so get to the point. Bull Pucky sounds like a hockey game between animals.

I have to bow to your expertise, Jocko. If anyone knows about games between animals it's you, you animal. :)

[muggsy]

I hate Brussel Sprouts

I love Brussel sprouts for the gas that they give me. Keeps unwanted company away. :)

[O'Dell]

That should be a thread all on its own. I hate them too.

I'm not going back to how this got in the thread, but that makes three of us.

[Armybrat]

Me too.

[Barth]

My MK40 Elite really did require a fairly extensive break in period to get 100% reliable.
I don't remember the exact round count.
But It seems like ~200 to run good and ~400 to run 100% with anything.

Still, after that, I'd shoot 200+ everytime I hit the range.
Seems like 2000+ rounds flawless once broke in.

I'm thinking newbies buy a new Kahr and go strait to a class expecting the gun will function fine.
Plus everyone can't shoot a micro well anyway.
I would have complete confidence taking my MK40 to a class these days.

Barth

[muggsy]

I can shoot both of my Kahr pistols with two hands, strong hand, weak hand and with both hands tied behind my back using a mirror. I can limp wrist it and shoot it gangsta style, up side down and between my legs and it never misses a beat. Those A-holes don't know what they're talking about. My name is Muggsy and I approve this message.

[Ron AZ]

I like brussel sprouts ... especially thd younv and tender ones.

[yqtszhj]

I can shoot both of my Kahr pistols ....... between my legs and it never misses a beat.

THAT COULD HURT. :eek:

[SlowBurn]

I hate brussels sprouts too, but not as much as I love bacon.

[CJB]

Brussels sprouts give me gas the likes that Auschwitz could only dream of.....

[muggsy]

I like brussel sprouts ... especially thd younv and tender ones.

Jocko wanna be typist here. :)

[muggsy]

THAT COULD HURT. :eek:

It could only hurt me a little, if you catch my drift. Nipped in the bud, so to speak. :)

[marshal kane]

That reminds me of the story about the two samurai warriors who were trying to impress each other with their swordsmanship. The first samurai said, "Watch that fly. I'm going to take off his right wing." So drawing his sword, he takes a swing and sure enough the fly hits the ground minus a wing. The second samurai says, "That's nothing, watch this." Drawing his sword, he takes a swing at another fly but the fly just flies away. The first samurai bursts out laughing saying, "You missed!" The second samurai laughs and says, "Like hell, no kids for THAT fly!"

[340pd]

Back to the topic?
I think there is a huge difference between a fighting handgun and one carried or safely stored for self defense. This topic comes up in our basic pistol class all the time. I now ask each of our new to guns shooters, what are you expecting to use a gun for? To those that are timid, physically weak, or seem uninterested in returning to our range to actually understand how a semi auto functions and safely clear malfunctions, I hand them a smaller framed S&W with a set of Crimson Trace laser grips and work from there. The simple manual of arms for a revolver especially one with a laser, "put the dot on the target and drag the trigger rearward until you hear click, click" seems to be understood by everyone.

Yes, I am oversimplifying but I am still amazed when doing my RSO shift, how many experienced shooters have little knowledge of how to correct a malfunctioning semi-auto. The vast majority are small guns of every make. Is one make better than another? I doubt it.
If you actually need the gun, life or death, one second notice, I suspect a malfunction will confuse 99.99% of all shooters enough to get them killed.

BTW, Brussel sprouts, melted cheese, and bacon. A++++

[Baklash]

"I suspect a malfunction will confuse 99.99% of all shooters enough to get them killed."

Especially with the adrenaline flowing like Niagara Falls. Hopefully all that practice and muscle memory will kick in. Of course that same 99.9% won't have muscle memory due to no practice or the wrong kind of practice. "What the heck, I just pulled the trigger and got no bang. What's wrong with this dang gun. I know one thing, I'll never buy this brand again." Wonder if I can get my money back? Oh Oh, forgot where I was. Uhh, THAT HURT!"

[jocko]

I love Brussel sprouts for the gas that they give me. Keeps unwanted company away. :)

U ONLY WISH YOU HAD COJMPANY. Just sayin but heh blame it o thge russel sprouts, if that please u...

[jocko]

The Kimber SOLO....Won't shoot anything BUT +p JHP rounds and is finicky with which brand works....No range ammo will shoot in one

and my point is I think iimbr even states in their manual or somewhere that +P only. I owner should have no complaint , unless he can't read. I like tyhe trigger on the kimber, basicaly a single action semi, if you study it more. Its damn near 905 cocked and ready to go. Sure wou7ldnt want it in my pocket but it outta bne one accurate semi, with that trigger setup.

[muggsy]

And this from an Army Reserve Typing instructor. ;)

[JimBianchi]

About 8 years ago I took my MK9 to an intermediate/advanced pistol course locally.

We ran the guns hard, 200rds in around an hour, hour and half or so. I had 6, 6rd mags and the Kahr ran perfect.

I was the biggest guy and I shot the smallest gun.

Also the only gun that never jammed, ever.

I am an experienced shooter with a too many carry guns, but I train with the gun I carry. I now carry either my CM9 or my G26. Both are all well maintained and shoot perfectly.

It's more about the shooter than the gun, always has been, always will be.

[downtownv]

Too Many Haters; where's the Love?
Certainly, opinions are like rectums everybody got one...

[muggsy]

I practice the Tap, Rack, Throw drill daily just to stay sharp. I carry a back-up gun for just such an occasion.

[RonW]

Just trying to stay on topic here, but I used my Kahr CW40 in weekly local IDPA club matches & it has not failed me once. There is also another gentleman who uses his CW45 and not once did his pistol jam up or otherwise failed in any way... With over 2k rounds fired, not one stovepipe, or FTF or magazine poping out that I read about on none other than...online. I've already replaced the recoil spring as required by Kahr when I hit the 2k mark and I replaced the front sight with a Trijicon night sight. My CW40 is also my EDC. Pretty much everyone that I know personally, not online, but personally really like Kahr pistols and how they shoot. When I tell people that I also carry a K9 w/night sights, their eyes light up. Me, or people that I know who carry Kahr pistols have not experienced any realibility issues. I drop my mags on concrete floor, tossed them in the grass. Havent had one break yet.

But then of course, what you read online is probably very different then the real world....

[Armybrat]

Kahrs can't take the strain" of intense shooting classes
Neither could Johnny Ringo when he met his huckleberry.

But then again, my Kahrs will never meet Val Kilmer.

[muggsy]

I qualified for my CCW with my CM9 shooting a 100 round course of fire with zero malfunctions.

[Bawanna]

My PM45 nearly straight out of the box after an internal inspection but zero prep went 350 rounds first range trip.

No boggles, misfeeds, or issues. And none since.

[Handy]

There are certainly enough known issues with certain Kahr models for a trainer to make some general comments about the brand. Anyone who would be so bothered about those kind of comments that they couldn't stay in the class to learn probably wasn't ready to learn anything in the first place.

I think the K9 was a pretty neato design. I'd probably have to put at least 500 trouble free rounds downrange on something like a PM40 before I'd carry it, and I wouldn't tolerate any peening or distortion.

[Bawanna]

I generally require 500 trouble free rounds before I carry any gun. Use to be 1000 but I've lowered my standards due to the ammo cost and seemingly limited time.

I do know a bunch, officers included who shoot a couple mags, do a minimal qual and even with minor issues they carry the thing. Usually a back up, sometimes an off duty gun. Guess if it works for them ok. Not for me.

[Handy]

I could see firing 50 rounds for an HK or full size Beretta. Not much else. Kahr says 200, and that would probably do me fine for a K9.

[Barth]

I generally require 500 trouble free rounds before I carry any gun. Use to be 1000 but I've lowered my standards due to the ammo cost and seemingly limited time.

I do know a bunch, officers included who shoot a couple mags, do a minimal qual and even with minor issues they carry the thing. Usually a back up, sometimes an off duty gun. Guess if it works for them ok. Not for me.

+1
I like 1000 to 1500 rounds with zero issues.
200 of any carry JHP (and I generally like to have three different JHP options).
I've spent many times the price of my guns on ammo...

My MK40 took a few rounds to get reliable.
But after that?
Easily 2000 with no issues.
And that includes JHPs in 135, 155, 165 & 180 grain bullets.
Speer GDHP SB, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger T-Series, Cor-Bon...

[CJB]

All I know is.... every few months, I take my daily carry PM45 out of my pocket after work, and unload six shots into the backyard.

All the grime, lint, grit, mung, mud/blood/beer, smeg, kweeb be damned, because it has NEVER failed me and is nice and loosey goosey to rack too.

[Dbholfo]

I try to shoot monthly outdoors but weather sometimes won't allow me to. My PM45 shoots flawlessly after initial FTFeed and ramp polishing. Like I've said before it shoots more accurately for me than my Ruger P345 I've had for 6 years. That's not to say the Ruger isn't a good shooter. There's no question in my mind that the Kahr is the right CC gun. I practice moving and shooting from cover with both guns alternately and combine that sometimes with my 870. My friend keeps me challenged and thinking about what I'm doing in various scenarios when we shoot and I've learned a bunch since I started seriously shooting in 2009. I was 62 then and my body is slower but in better shape now.

[muggsy]

There are certainly enough known issues with certain Kahr models for a trainer to make some general comments about the brand. Anyone who would be so bothered about those kind of comments that they couldn't stay in the class to learn probably wasn't ready to learn anything in the first place.

I think the K9 was a pretty neato design. I'd probably have to put at least 500 trouble free rounds downrange on something like a PM40 before I'd carry it, and I wouldn't tolerate any peening or distortion.

There are known issues with virtually every brand of gun. There are known issues with some instructors, too. The comment that Kahrs "can't handle the strain" was made by an instructor with known issues.

[TheTman]

For now Kahrs are serving me well, but if things deteriorate, I'm not sure a single stack is going to cut it, save a 1911 with 4 extra 8 round mags. I may want to move up to something with a 15 round mag, at least in 9mm. Walther has a low priced 9mm PPX that stays right around the $300 mark, with a 16 round mag that I'd like to check out. Reviewers seem to like it well enough. Buds has some decent prices on some .40 cal police trade in, mostly M&P's and a couple Glocks. The M&P's hold 15 .40's in the mag.
I'd better quit looking at guns, and stock up on ammo for what I have.

[jocko]

For now Kahrs are serving me well, but if things deteriorate, I'm not sure a single stack is going to cut it, save a 1911 with 4 extra 8 round mags. I may want to move up to something with a 15 round mag, at least in 9mm. Walther has a low priced 9mm PPX that stays right around the $300 mark, with a 16 round mag that I'd like to check out. Reviewers seem to like it well enough. Buds has some decent prices on some .40 cal police trade in, mostly M&P's and a couple Glocks. The M&P's hold 15 .40's in the mag.
I'd better quit looking at guns, and stock up on ammo for what I have.

I'm stgill betting we will see a double stack kahr in 9nn and sooner than u think. Only makes good sense, they have done about all they can to the sub kahrs they make now, so why not offer a gun that gives us a choice instead of going out and buying a glock. That Gen 2 K9 is never gonna be a seller IMO but it is a nice addition to kahrs line of quality guns and with that model they have showed they can amke a very super accurate handgun. Why a double stack 9 first, well it makes sense to me.

[Alfonse]

I'm stgill betting we will see a double stack kahr in 9nn and sooner than u think. Only makes good sense, they have done about all they can to the sub kahrs they make now, so why not offer a gun that gives us a choice instead of going out and buying a glock. That Gen 2 K9 is never gonna be a seller IMO but it is a nice addition to kahrs line of quality guns and with that model they have showed they can amke a very super accurate handgun. Why a double stack 9 first, well it makes sense to me.

I picked up a Taurus PT 111 G2 to make some aftermarket parts for it. The thing holds 12+1 and only cost $200 out the door if you count the $50 mail in rebate. The thing doesn't cost much, but surprisingly isn't chintzy. It is just a bit bigger, than a CW9 and is about 1.1" thick. I have about 400 rounds through it now and it works pretty well. The trigger is "different" but I got used to it pretty quickly and can hit what the gun is pointing towards. It actually got me thinking about how I might carry it, since it won't go in my pocket. Everything else seems pretty uncomfortable to me (I know, comforting, etc.). I get if things deteriorate, sudden'y a single stack might not seem like enough. Or, I could just throw the CW380 in another pocket in addition.

[b4uqzme]

If things get sketchy enough, the CZ P07 will leave the bedside and take its place on my hip. And the Kahrs will become backups. No stretch IMHO.

[muggsy]

I'd like to see Kahr make a hi cap double stack nine. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

[jocko]

I'd like to see Kahr make a hi cap double stack nine. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

pATIENCE, sh!thead

[knkali]

To the OP. That statement is NOT TRUE. I routinely took my Kahr P40 to combat class. After all, I train with what I carry most. Yeah it looked ridiculous but the gun did well. It was hard on the shooter b/c the round count was high for a compact gun but the gun goes bang and it is a great way to get to know your weapon well. I did have to do a quick clean every 300 rounds or she acts up but the gun held together well. I did have probs with mag drops. Yep do a lot of them do to the capacity of the gun ( most guys in the class were LEO or armed forces and had high cap mags) The probs with mags drops is when the mag hits the deck, the base plate would sometimes come loose and the spring shot out to who knows where. I had to rig the base plate so that would not happen( I have a thread on that) but the gun did well. OH my FO sights did fall apart but that is sort of expected with FO sights and running as gun hard and often.

[Alfonse]

My daughter and I took two PM9s to a combat class in August. She eventually did have trouble with limp wristing when she got tired (she's only 15) that caused a few feeding failures, but the guns performed flawlessly. We shot close to 400 rounds through each.

[CPTKILLER]

My MK9 is fine. I carry it and completely trust it!

[OldLincoln]

Let's see, the last time I got in a 200rd shootout was back in.... long time ago, can't recollect just yet.... Oh yeah, never. Been a poorly couple years and haven't even carried or shot. My carry card has expired but still in the margin for renewal so I'll get it just because I'm concerned that those nutjobs in Sacramento will pass some stupid laws 1/1/16 tightening up requirements. If I could get my hips replaced I'd be back to full time carry. Might have to get a true very lightweight pocket carry till then with things so screwed up.

[Iggy]

Been in four serious social encounters, in each case I only needed one round. I ain't askeered to carry a gun that holds 7 or 8 rounds.

[Bawanna]

Somehow I don't picture you skeered of much of anything cept maybe Itchy and that's completely understandable.
Heard she's a rough customer when riled.

[Iggy]

LOL, Yup you got her pegged and that's a fact.

[b4uqzme]

To the OP. That statement is NOT TRUE. I routinely took my Kahr P40 to combat class. After all, I train with what I carry most...

Bingo! Even if the instructor from the OP were correct, it would be foolish to carry something that doesn't work for you just because it wasn't suited for some tacticool class marathon. And as knkali says, it's wise to train with what you carry (if you can).

[CJB]

The person carrying, and the weapon he is carrying, must operate as one cohesive unit in a time of crisis.

Training with your .22 Ruger and carrying the .45 Kahr for protection is foolish several times over.

Train with, or at least, practice to the point of total familiarity with, the weapon you choose to carry.

The Marine's got it right with their creed, paraphrased for the contextual situation at hand:


This is my handgun. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My handgun is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My handgun, without me, is useless. Without my handgun, I am useless. I must fire my handgun true. I must shoot straighter than my assailant who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My handgun and I know that what counts in an attack is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My handgun is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my handgun clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My handgun and I are the defenders of my country, my family and me. We are the masters of our assailants. We are the saviors of lives.
So be it, until victory is mine and there are no assailants, but peace!

[jocko]

nicer job CJB. I take back all the bad things that Bawanna said about u in his emails to me. Just sayin

My creed would be similar but no doub t if I ever tgried to write it for "effect" my grammar or lack of it would probalby have the Marines at my door the next day.