Hello, and new to me CW45 problems

[imarangemaster]

Hello. New member here, hoping for some help from the knowledge base here. Here is a copy of the text of an email I sent to Kahr customer service. Soliciting ideas on this forum, also: It is like this CW45 is an absolute lemon! In 20 years of being a firearms instructor and rangemaster, having evaluated many firearms for possible LEO use, I have NEVER had a pistol perform so poorly! Thanks in advance

"I recently purchased a mint condition, but used, CW45 from a local gunshop. I took it to the range to try it, as I am a retired LEO and planned to use it as my main carry weapon, replacing my glock.

1) Using Kahr mags, the magazine falls out about every other shot I take. Either the catch is defective, or the spring is too week.


2) Using standard velocity 230 grain hollow points (not +P), the slide stop engages about once every magazine under recoil. That spring also feels very soft.


3) Using Kahr magazines and standard 230 grain FMJs, it did not feed reliably (about 1 out of 10 it failed to chamber fully). I tried three different brands of Hollow points (Speer, Winchester, and Hornady) and only the Hornady feed almost reliably. It is almost as if the recoil spring is too soft.


Three of the magazines I tried are new out of the package.


To say I am disappointed, is an understatement.


I have carried a Glock 19 for 20 years, and thought this would finally replace it. I have NEVER had a malfunction in the Glock. Not hardly the case with this. I fired about 35 rounds and had 14 malfunctions: mag drops, FTF, and involuntary slide stop engagement.


I am not a novice shooter, with 7 years military and 22 years law enforcement, many as a firearms instructor and rangemaster."

[getsome]

Hello imarangemaster and welcome to the site....Sorry you are having issues with the CW45....I had a CW40 that had the magazine dropping problem and that's how I found this place and several members talked me through fixing it....In your case I would call Kahr and don't tell them you bought it used and explain the problems you are having and ask for a new recoil spring and an improved magazine catch spring which is what fixed mine...It's easy to change out and all you need is a long thin screwdriver to pry out the old one and push in the new stronger one....

The slide locking back problem is one I had as well because I bent the little slide release spring when I put the gun back together after the first range trip....Pull the gun apart and look at the spring and be sure its straight both horizontally and vertically...If its bent you can tweak it with a pair of needle nose pliers to get it back in shape and when you push the slide stop lever in be sure it's in the 3 o clock position and it should snick back in...A little grease on the part of the lever that contacts the spring is good.....

Take your magazines apart and clean them well and be sure the mag springs are installed in the correct way, some have found springs installed upside down from the factory....Another trick while you have the follower out is to take some 1000 grit wet/dry paper and smooth up the part of the plastic that slides inside the mag tube, it should not catch on the inside at all and a little light spray of silicone won't hurt a thing just don't over do it and wipe off all excess....

These three things should get her back up and running but if not you can always call Kahr and ask for a return shipping label and let the mother ship have a look at it.... The CW45 is a real nice weapon and several folks here have one and report they are 100%....Some Kahrs need a little fluff and buff to get to perfection and are fine from then on.....One thing I forgot was while you have it apart why not mirror polish the feed ramp and chamber to help with the feeding problems you experienced...Kahrs have a real tight champer and benefit from a good polish job....Try these things and give it another go at the range....It's unknown how many rounds have been through your pistol since you bought it used but even the manual says to give it 200 rounds to break in all the moving parts.....That is a nice pistol you have and once it's working right you will soon come to love it....Work with it and don't give up just yet...There are lots of real nice knowledgeable folks here more than willing to help a fellow out....Once again welcome aboard and let us know how it goes....

[yqtszhj]

Welcome to the forum. Dont get disgruntled but check out the thread below:
http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1612-CW45-(and-other-poly-45)-issues-and-fixes

Hang in there and get it working. It probably wont be too difficult and I promise you'll love it when you get it running right. I put 1000+ rounds through my first one then sent it back for a frame problem that they fixed for free. Got it back and put a couple of hundred rounds through the new one with no issues. Its a soft shooter.

[imarangemaster]

THANKS FOR THE INPUT AND ENCOURAGEMENT! I am a Glock armorer, so the catch spring is no problem As an interim, I tweeked it a tad to increase pressure on the catch. I'll try trimming the edge of the follower, as I believe it is helping disengage the catch. A new recoil spring is a must. I will try calling Kahr and see if I can get a new recoil and mag catch spring, and a new improved mag catch. I love the feel of the weapon, and it shoots well to point of aim for me (when it is not jamming!). I also put a slight downward tweek in the slide stop spring tail down to give a little more downward tension on the slide stop. Also, this time I shot it without the Pachmyer grip sleeve, and in recoil, it was moving around in my grip much more than when I first fired it with ball ammo as a test. I mag have been bumping the mag catch with the already too weak spring. We will see. I'll do some more rounds with the sleeve back on and the spring tweeked increasing pressure on the catch.

[yqtszhj]

It shoots point of aim for me too. The cw45 fit my hands perfect. I actually really like the sights too. Just dot the I and you're on target.

[imarangemaster]

The magazine that came with the weapon has an awful spring (compressed). Does the CW45 take Wolff Officer's model springs? I modified the followers on the factory mags. The plastic follower would push the mag catch half way open it is so tight in the magazine body. I relieved it as in the linked post, and it doesn't touch it now. I also tightened the screw for the slide catch. It was REALLY loose. Also put a slight down turn in it to increase the pressure to stay un-engaged. I will try it tomorrow. I still need to get a new recoil spring. I actually wonder if this one wasn't trimmed for soft reloads....

[yqtszhj]

I still have my original mag spring. As a matter of fact i only have 1 kahr mag for my cw45 but i do use actmag 7 round magazines that I have for an officers model 1911. They worked from day one and hold the slide back on the last round.

I never had any feeding or mag problems after relieving the follower as you just did. I think wolff might make a kahr mag spring but I'm not sure. I know they make some of the other springs. You may have fixed your problems now.

I never replaced my recoil spring before i sent it back for the frame issue and it seemed light but worked fine. After a few hundred rounds the action got really smooth on my cw45 and I could slow ride the slide forward and still chamber a round. Never could do that on my 9mm's.

[CJB]

The common thread to your problem is the magazine retention.

If the magazine isn't staying put, then how can you expect hold open, proper feeding, etc? You can't.

Do the (very) easy fix. Hey treat yourself to a new catch too, just in case its been bubba'd a little by the previous owner.

Could be too.... the pistol came with the catch not quite right, and owner number one traded that pistol in before it was good and limbered up. Sayin' that since you might be looking at a minor problem, and the need to still break in your Kahr a bit. You'll find that the recoil spring will loosen up a good bit, and things will smooth out considerably when that happens. And, a NEW recoil spring will require a bit of shooting to loosen up too, since its new. Its a matter of being a short spring coupled with a tiny pistol, and the way spring metal works - they make 'em a little stronger than they ought to be, and they become what they ought to be with a little use.

You might find your "standard" velocity 230's are actually a bit slow - ie, WWB is on the slow side, and don't function as well in new Kahr pistols. I used to shoot "the regular stuff" for breakin, but... my mind is changed on that. I shoot the hottest stuff I can find, the stronger the better for breaking in the pistol. Thats exactly what it needs for best (and most rapid) break in.

Finally.... my two PM45's both run as close to 100 percent as I could expect. The one that I carry daily, rides in my pocket for six months at a time, and about twice a year, I'll get pissed off at a possum or **** in the back yard, and go unload (shooting low on purpuse just to get the critter gone). Then I clean the pistol and reload it, and back in the pocket it goes. Lint and grit and crap... all that pocket goo, mung, qweeb and such, don't seem to effect it at all. Runs whenever I want it to. Range time, not so much lately, but it can be counted on to go bang all the time.

[imarangemaster]

Thanks for the great advice. I am a factory trained Glock and Beretta Law Enforcement Armorer. Rather than get lathered, I figure out what is wrong and fix it! That's why I came here to tap into this knowledge base. I contacted Kahr, and they wanted me to get an RMA and go through the hassle (I live in Kalifornistan) and expense of sending it back, and MAYBE considering it warranty covered. I explained I was an armorer, and I requested new recoil, mag catch and slide stop springs from them, as well as a new catch. The shelf on this catch is very flat, not canted up like the improved ones. For now, I tweeked the catch spring in the middle, giving it a little more force in the direction of retention. I also put a slight downward tweek in the slide stop spring. I'll try it again today with the interim fixes.

I really love this little pistol, even with the grief it gave me yesterday. Oh, BTW, I put the Pachmayr grip sleeve back on. The little bugger is like a hand cannon shooting 230 +Ps!

I have Winchester Ranger 230 +P T series HPS, Speer Gold Dot 230 HPs, and Some Hornady Critical Defense. Maybe the recoil spring will work with the other issued handled.

[hardluk1]

Are you loading the mag loaded and slide closed . If so give the mag a hard rap to set it or rack the slide back . I don't even use my kahr mags in my 45 . Officers recoil spring does not work with out some bending . If you can find some check-mate 1911 mags they need one thing done to them to be reliable and have an extra round , bend the front of the feed lip down level to run reliably . You tube video covers 1911 mags in cw45 . Some won't do use them cause they not made for the kahr . 1911 have there own problems with mags .

Used handguns - You just never know what some one has done . Could be your pushing the slide hold open up and not realizing it ? That's has been an issues for some .

I prefer mid weight bullets and some +P loads on no or low round count kahr and run them wet when new .

[imarangemaster]

Kahr responded. They will be happy to send me the parts...as long as I pay for them first! LOL! What heck happened to all of that wonderful Kaht warranty and customer service I keep reading about?????? I guess because I told them it was used, I don't count.

[Bawanna]

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1612-CW45-(and-other-poly-45)-issues-and-fixes

If you haven't already read this thread it's a good one. There's a post in there specifically addressing that slide stop spring, how it should be oriented and how it actually acts as two separate springs.

Do be durn careful with the screw on that unit, steel screw into tupperware frame is a weak spot to me, easy to strip.

[imarangemaster]

They advised me the warranty only applies to the original owner. It is void once it is sold. I guess honesty isn't the best policy all the time.

[Bawanna]

I think honesty is still the best policy, descretion with the release of unnecessay information is advised?

The main thing is we want to get that gun up and running 110%.

[RonW]

They advised me the warranty only applies to the original owner. It is void once it is sold. I guess honesty isn't the best policy all the time.

I'm going to go ahead & chime in.... Yeah their warranty is not transferable unfortunately however the good thing is, except the frame itself, you can order any part for your pistol & have it sent to your home. I have ordered from Kahr arms website & it was painless & the standard shipping was quick, within a week after ordering. And the prices are very reasonable. The pistol is simple in design and pretty much anyone can change out the parts themselves.

Since you bought your CW45 used... I would have to assume that it's still going to need a good breaking in still..... The mag popping out is unacceptable however... I would suggest giving the pistol a good cleaning & lube... inspect the plastic follower on your mags for defects/cracks & order a replacement recoil spring, mag catch & slide release spring.... be careful when inserting the slide release lever back into the gun, if done incorrectly, it can bend the spring, which might be a possibility from it's previous owner, that can cause some of the problems your describing....

On a good note... I've owned my CW40 for nearly a yr, put 1100 rounds thru it and it's been ultra reliable. In fact, it replaced my M&P shield 9 as my primary carry. I sold my Shield 40 when I bought my K9..... In addition to being my EDC, I also use it for weekly IDPA club matches at our local indoor range. There was another guy that shows up on occasion that uses his CW45, and his like mine, has been very reliable as well.

Hey, since your going to be ordering some parts from Kahr, you might as well consider ordering their Trijicon front night sight for your CW45... I just replaced mine on my CW40 and it's working out great! :cool:

[jocko]

They advised me the warranty only applies to the original owner. It is void once it is sold. I guess honesty isn't the best policy all the time.

very strange that kahr would not work with you.I personaly feel a 5 year warranty should go with the gun and not the owner. It should be transferable just like a car or any utter products. Most on here have necver had this issue, but again ur honeslty miught have screwed u. What I would have done is just said nuttin unless I was asked. Noramally kahr can tell from the serial # the age of the gu to, but, sorry to hear that.

[imarangemaster]

I really love the weapon, which is saying a lot considering the issues it has. I really think I got is so cheap ($400 out the door with one mag) was because the previous owner was "dumping" it. His loss is my gain. I even ordered two new magazine springs for my 6 rounders. The 6 rounder that came with the weapon, the spring only protruded about 1/2" BELOW THE BOTTOM OF THE MAGAZINE, UNCOMPRESSED, AND NEVER ACTIVATED THE SLIDE STOP! The other 6 rounder I got used on Ebay. It's spring is pretty good still, ut for $12, I'll just replace it at the same time as the bad one. My two Kahr 7 rounders for it are new in wrapper.

I figure I'll replace the recoil,mag catch, and slide stop springs, springs, and check tension on the catch spring. I already trimmed the right front corner of the followers so they no longer hit the magazine catch (how dumb of a design is that?). I burn through a couple hundred FMJs to get things seated, then try my Gold Dots. Ranger T Series +P, and Hornady Critical Duty. We'll see how it goes then.

[shlike]

I really love the weapon, which is saying a lot considering the issues it has. I really think I got is so cheap ($400 out the door with one mag) was because the previous owner was "dumping" it. His loss is my gain. I even ordered two new magazine springs for my 6 rounders. The 6 rounder that came with the weapon, the spring only protruded about 1/2" BELOW THE BOTTOM OF THE MAGAZINE, UNCOMPRESSED, AND NEVER ACTIVATED THE SLIDE STOP! The other 6 rounder I got used on Ebay. It's spring is pretty good still, ut for $12, I'll just replace it at the same time as the bad one. My two Kahr 7 rounders for it are new in wrapper.

I figure I'll replace the recoil,mag catch, and slide stop springs, springs, and check tension on the catch spring. I already trimmed the right front corner of the followers so they no longer hit the magazine catch (how dumb of a design is that?). I burn through a couple hundred FMJs to get things seated, then try my Gold Dots. Ranger T Series +P, and Hornady Critical Duty. We'll see how it goes then.

http://grabagun.com/kahr-cw45-45acp-3-5-msts-poly-1-mag.html

[imarangemaster]

http://grabagun.com/kahr-cw45-45acp-3-5-msts-poly-1-mag.html

Thanks, but unfortunately, the KAHR CW45 is no longer on Kommifornia's approved list of firearms, just the P45. That means the only way to get one is to find a used one that was registered in California before it dropped of the list. They are strangling the flow of handguns by making BS regulations and charging the manufacturer's $10,000 A YEAR, PER EACH VARIATION of each firearm! 10 different variations of the same basic pistol translates into $100,000 a year.

[shlike]

Thanks, but unfortunately, the KAHR CW45 is no longer on Kommifornia's approved list of firearms, just the P45. That means the only way to get one is to find a used one that was registered in California before it dropped of the list. They are strangling the flow of handguns by making BS regulations and charging the manufacturer's $10,000 A YEAR, PER EACH VARIATION of each firearm! 10 different variations of the same basic pistol translates into $100,000 a year.

Wow. I hadn't even considered how the California restrictions can affect the prices of guns. We don't have any such restrictions here in Michigan. Don't know if this is true, but I had heard that in California, CPL's are gun-specific, meaning you have to apply to have a specific gun added to your CPL, and you can only carry the specific guns listed on your CPL. Is that true? In Michigan (and most other states) your CPL does not limit you to any specific gun.

I used to live in Hermosa Beach many years ago (before I developed a strong interest in guns), and upon reflection I think I would be willing to tolerate the gun restrictions for a chance to live back there again; I loved living there!

[Bawanna]

California is a good place to be FROM. Get out while you still can.

Lord knows we got enough of yall migrating up here to the north, it's almost as bad since they bring their silly idea's with them and want to create the same silly laws up here but we'll make room for you rangemaster.

This is a limited time offer though, getting plumb crowded up here, I'm pondering a wagons east move myself, wanna get me a chunk of Wyoming I think. A little room to stretch out a bit, 50,000 acres fenced with a moat ought to work purty good.

[imarangemaster]

You are correct. The specific weapon must be listed. I am fortunate, as I am a retired California deputy Sheriff. I don't need a permit, as my retired ID says concealed weapon authorized, though I do have to qualify with it annually.

aas for gun prices, they are STUPID in CA. I paid $750 for a used 582 series Mini-14 made in 2013. Pretty weapon, though...

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg134/imarangemaster/mini-rd_zpsjlz1iers.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/imarangemaster/media/mini-rd_zpsjlz1iers.jpg.html)

[CJB]

Kahr responded. They will be happy to send me the parts...as long as I pay for them first! LOL! What heck happened to all of that wonderful Kaht warranty and customer service I keep reading about?????? I guess because I told them it was used, I don't count.

Maybe as a (former) LEO you're too used to all the comps and little perks that come with the job.

You bought a USED pistol. When you buy a USED pistol, you take what you get. I mean really... go buy a used Sig or Glock and tell them you have bad parts. See what they say.....

Someone who wa, say, some sort of certified armorer, would have picked up the problem, and corrected it, perhaps on the spot, or
They could have had the store made it right, just to move the pistol off their shelf.

You saved some dollars buying used. Hopefully you saved enough to still make it worth while.

[imarangemaster]

Haha! Good point! Yep, kinda was spoiled. No big deal. Everything (including two new mag springs) was $60. Working on it is a piece of cake. I already did a fix on the mag catch and slide lock, but want new parts, just because. This will be my EDC weapon - once I can rely on it.

[marshal kane]

I can carry openly or concealed too without permit. I can also buy hi-cap magazines, threaded barrel handguns and suppressors. That's because I live in Arizona. I lived in northern California for 73 years and would still be living there if it were not for the fact that the liberals there have taken over the government and the education system. The state is slowly strangling gun owners as each year more and more stringent laws are being passed on guns and ammunition.

[Scarywoody]

Imarangemaster, hopefully, you kept your Glock? I live 15 miles from Glock in Georgia. I purchased a well used Gen 2 G19. One day at the range I was loading a magazine and I chipped the magazine well. I figured, okay, I'll pay to get a new frame. I know the frame was $150. Off I go to the Mother-ship, pistol and check in hand. The Tech says it's under warranty. I explain I'm not the original purchaser. He says "it's a Glock we warranty for life". After about 20 minutes he returns my now Gen 3 pistol with all brand new parts. Free of charge. Oh plus, Glock schwag (key chain, stress ball, R Lee Ermy poster). And he tells me to come back with any old magazines and they will swap them for free. I did! A dozen new 15 round mags for a collection of beat up old 10 round surplus mags from the oppressed states.

I bought the Kahr CM9 to supplement the Glock. Striker fired but smaller (pre G43) . I too found this site looking for tips and advice to make that Kahr better. In my experience Kahr is a few good people short of "Perfection". These pistols are CNC'd to tight tolerances but I don't think all the equipment is in sync between the departments. Kahr's are a good design but you have to invest in modifying them. You are fortunate to be an armorer. I'm a home smith. I feel bad for the guy that buys one thinking it will shoot right out of the box.

[se3388]

Welcome to the Forum, hope you get the CW45 going. I really love mine and carry it daily, it is 100% reliable. It does have a very tight chamber. It is scary accurate, hits on a B-27 at 100 yds are fairly easy.

Steve........

[jocko]

Imarangemaster, hopefully, you kept your Glock? I live 15 miles from Glock in Georgia. I purchased a well used Gen 2 G19. One day at the range I was loading a magazine and I chipped the magazine well. I figured, okay, I'll pay to get a new frame. I know the frame was $150. Off I go to the Mother-ship, pistol and check in hand. The Tech says it's under warranty. I explain I'm not the original purchaser. He says "it's a Glock we warranty for life". After about 20 minutes he returns my now Gen 3 pistol with all brand new parts. Free of charge. Oh plus, Glock schwag (key chain, stress ball, R Lee Ermy poster). And he tells me to come back with any old magazines and they will swap them for free. I did! A dozen new 15 round mags for a collection of beat up old 10 round surplus mags from the oppressed states.

I bought the Kahr CM9 to supplement the Glock. Striker fired but smaller (pre G43) . I too found this site looking for tips and advice to make that Kahr better. In my experience Kahr is a few good people short of "Perfection". These pistols are CNC'd to tight tolerances but I don't think all the equipment is in sync between the departments. Kahr's are a good design but you have to invest in modifying them. You are fortunate to be an armorer. I'm a home smith. I feel bad for the guy that buys one thinking it will shoot right out of the box.


who registered youyr new frame for you. I am very sure Glock will not do that, so being your frame was serialized, unless they stamped it with the same numer, which I don't think any gun maker willdo eityher. You would have had a hard time walking out with a new frame. Just sayin. I think u need to explain more to convince me that this happened as u stated. Your defintely IMO off base on your assmption of kahrs reliablility and ability to shoot right out of the box, but again every one can have an opinion, your just differs from mine..

[imarangemaster]

who registered youyr new frame for you. I am very sure Glock will not do that, so being your frame was serialized, unless they stamped it with the same numer, which I don't think any gun maker willdo eityher. You would have had a hard time walking out with a new frame. Just sayin. I think u need to explain more to convince me that this happened as u stated. Your defintely IMO off base on your assmption of kahrs reliablility and ability to shoot right out of the box, but again every one can have an opinion, your just differs from mine..

Actually, I had a 669 Smith and Wesson, that was actually on a 6906 frame (MUCH different, and different internals than the 669). It had been cracked while under warranty when the prior owner had it. He sent it back to S&W, and returned with a 6906 frame, stamped "669" with the original serial number. Para Ordnance did the same thing. I returned a P12 alloy frame that cracked, they returned a new frame with the original serial number.

[Bobshouse]

I had always wondered about that Jocko, what about all the Kahr owners that had their frames replaced? Did they stamp the same serial number on the frame? I know here in California if a new serial number is issued your dealer has to receive, log and re-dros your firearm to you.

[Bawanna]

That's what happened with any new frame from Kahr. Can't ship direct back to owner, has to go to a dealer and be reregistered like a new gun.

[jocko]

I had always wondered about that Jocko, what about all the Kahr owners that had their frames replaced? Did they stamp the same serial number on the frame? I know here in California if a new serial number is issued your dealer has to receive, log and re-dros your firearm to you.

kahr doesnot stamp new frames with old nymbers. if utters do, then that is a good thing, I just never heard of it being done. My impression was the gun lives and dies with the serial number, but I stand corrected if utter gun makers do that.

[CJB]

Colonel.... please do not use the word REGISTER in conjunction with a TRANSFER

Totally different thing. If you bother to check, the GCA'68 specifically ALLOWS a manufacturer to send a replacement frame, with new numbers to the purchaser who sent the firearm for them for repair.

DO NOT confuse the policy of some, or perhaps the majority, of manufacturers with what is allowed by law.

KEL-TEC for one, WILL send a newly manufactured frame/receiver, with new numbers, directly to the individual, and there are numerous accounts of that, with surprising documentation to back it up, on Kel-Tec's web forum. H&K and Ruger have both replaced handguns outright to me, without FFL in the past. This portion of the GCA'68 has not changed.

Some years ago, I quoted the actual section of the law that specifically ALLOWS the practice. Unfortunately, our archives here don't go back that far.

Why do SOME/MOST manufactures choose to go the FFL route? Two reasons. One is liability. You cannot get some unauthorized individual sending in a firearm that is clearly defective, perhaps thrown away, and getting an operable firearm in return. IOW, hey buddy I'll take that POS off your hands for nada, and send it in and get it "fixed" and have an off the grid replacement. Legal, yes, but lawyers have their way of twisting things. The other, I'm told by a manufacturer here in Tampa Fl, is that it creates another set of paperwork, that they just don't want to deal with, so... killing two birds with one stone, ship to an FFL

As far as a walk up to a manufacturer.... can't say. I know that Kel-Tec requires a copy of the 4473 to do warranty work, to prove you're owner #1, I suppose. Dunno how they'd tell from the 4473... but they require it. I also suppose that since they have that, they have reasonable cause to assume that you're gtg on the replacement, which they happily send, with a letter explaining the change of serial number.

[Bawanna]

That's precisely what I PM'd Jocko a while back. The manufacture can do it but many and Kahr for sure will not due to the liability. They also must send in paperwork advising of the serial number change.

I don't know how anyone could provide the form 4473. The buyer never gets a copy of that. I'm only allowed to keep them for 20 days and they have to be destroyed. A dealer keeps them for years, I guess the buyer would have to track down the original dealer to get a copy of it.

[CJB]

They also must send in paperwork advising of the serial number change.

I don't know how anyone could provide the form 4473. The buyer never gets a copy of that. I'm only allowed to keep them for 20 days and they have to be destroyed. A dealer keeps them for years, I guess the buyer would have to track down the original dealer to get a copy of it.

Col., almost right.

The manufacturer does not send anything in. They do file reports, yearly, on what was produced. I'm not even sure if serial number ranges are part of that. They keep "bound books" just like the FFL, and must produce upon demand. I do not know the record keeping length for the manufacturer's license. Certainly its no shorter than the 7 years required by dealers license. In other words they must account for what arms they manufacture, and the disposition of them. Most go to distribution channels, some to PD and govt directly, a few go as trade samples and sales display items. When it goes out the door, it must be accounted for. The elimination of the accounting, and the surrounding liability is where the manufacturers differ.

Kel-Tek does in fact ask for the original 4473. You gotta go get a photocopy of it from the original FFL dealer that transferred the item to you. I know... bill of sale... but I guess they're easy to fake?

I don't know of any other manufacturers that require the 4473, so who knows. Ruger was good to go, new Blackhawk 357. Mine replacement came with a Super Blackhawk gripframe (steel) and ejector rod housing (steel) as a "bonus". They were super cool about it. So was HK.

I think for manufacturers its just a matter of "do the easy thing", send it to the FFL, who is required to do another background check, etc etc.... eliminates messes for the manufacturer.

[CJB]

Going over things....

The only case of "send in" that I know of, is where a Title II weapon needed its receiver replaced. In that case, it WAS a "registered" item, and DID have to have all the ATF papers updated.

[jocko]

Col., almost right.

The manufacturer does not send anything in. They do file reports, yearly, on what was produced. I'm not even sure if serial number ranges are part of that. They keep "bound books" just like the FFL, and must produce upon demand. I do not know the record keeping length for the manufacturer's license. Certainly its no shorter than the 7 years required by dealers license. In other words they must account for what arms they manufacture, and the disposition of them. Most go to distribution channels, some to PD and govt directly, a few go as trade samples and sales display items. When it goes out the door, it must be accounted for. The elimination of the accounting, and the surrounding liability is where the manufacturers differ.

Kel-Tek does in fact ask for the original 4473. You gotta go get a photocopy of it from the original FFL dealer that transferred the item to you. I know... bill of sale... but I guess they're easy to fake?

I don't know of any other manufacturers that require the 4473, so who knows. Ruger was good to go, new Blackhawk 357. Mine replacement came with a Super Blackhawk gripframe (steel) and ejector rod housing (steel) as a "bonus". They were super cool about it. So was HK.

I think for manufacturers its just a matter of "do the easy thing", send it to the FFL, who is required to do another background check, etc etc.... eliminates messes for the manufacturer.

wow that is bull sh!t on the kel teks. I have not ownd them for years now but I sent mine 3 back a total of 16 tims and was never ask nutting by tem. They never replaced a numbered frame but everything else on my 3 guns many tmes. They were totaly unreliable back then, but today I hear they are muchy better. If they insist on a form 4473k, tghen IMO they are just trying to keep people from sending back their guns for stupid reasons. Not sure a gun dealer is obligated to give you a copy of the form 44734 eiter. That is his information. I sold guns for over 40 years and never was ever asked about giving tghem a copy of form 4473. Didn't have a printer back then in my business either That sure sounds screwey to me CJB but kel tek can set their own rules. One thing might be is that it shows the age of the gun . Not sure what kts warranty time is either. I was told by an inside Kahr person that the serial number of a gun dies with that gun, neer to be used again. If they put a prefix before or after it, definitely it is a different serial number thaqn. That makes alot of sense CJB. Laws have changed since I retired from the gun business. I remember the horse sh! I had to put up with with the ATF on my black powder storage and my insurance compny.

I had to have a regulation metal fireproof, spark proof contaqiner thqt could hold no more than 50#. It had to be inside my building in a locked area. Now my insurance company when they came in to do a yeqarly audit, when they seen that black powder box in my locked room they threw a fit and said it must be outside the building i a storage container or they would not cover me.

So, it was musical chairs back then. When jATF was coming and the day I knew they were coming, I moved the black powder inside my building in the locked room and then the insurance audit was gonna happen Imoved it outsiude like they wanted. Worked for me until I retired. FOKK UM BOTH

[muggsy]

I had always wondered about that Jocko, what about all the Kahr owners that had their frames replaced? Did they stamp the same serial number on the frame? I know here in California if a new serial number is issued your dealer has to receive, log and re-dros your firearm to you.

I had the frame on my P380 replaced. That made it a new gun with a new serial number and because of that a NICS was required. I also received a letter from Kahr that described what had transpired that I am required to retain as long as I own the gun. More Brady B.S.

[CJB]

WTF Muggs?

I never got a letter from Kahr, and they replaced my first PM45's frame. That was two years ago, plus a few months...

Jocko, the KelTec thing is for WARRANTY repair, not for frame replace. Just to be clear. It's their policy, and I have no idea why a bill of sale wont work with them. It makes me want to go get a copy of my KSG 4473, and keep it for posterity (and future repairs... I'm not selling that beast... its too much fun to shoot).

[yqtszhj]

WTF Muggs?

I never got a letter from Kahr, and they replaced my first PM45's frame. That was two years ago, plus a few months...

.

I got a letter (more like a form) in the box with my new CW45 frame recently like muggs mentioned with the old defective frame serial number they kept and the new serial number of the replacement. I forgot about it until muggsy mentioned it.

[imarangemaster]

Holy Cow! Got the new recoil spring, slide stop spring, mag catch and mag catch spring from Kahr. The mag catch has the improved slight upward bevel on the shelf and the mag catch spring is stiffer than the one I took out. Those two improvements should cure the problem of the mags dropping. The new slide stop spring is certainly better. The stop stays down, but will pop into place with an empty mag. Before I had to choose either work and let the slide stop engage, or tighten it where an empty mag would trigger it.

The big difference is the recoil spring! It was a little degraded, taking a set, as the space in the coils was slightly less than the new one. I expected that. What I did not expect was that Bubba, the prior owner, lopped of 5 or 6 coils from the recoil spring! No wonder I was having FTFs. While I agree putting the new recoil spring in was a tough job (I had to use a brass rod the same diameter of the recoil spring guide from the front to keep the spring from kinking when I put it in), cutting coils is not the answer!

I'll take it to the range Tuesday (retired cops half price) and wring it out. I'll start with 50 to 100 rounds of ball to set things in.

[yqtszhj]

Sounds like you may have your issues resolved.

[CJB]

Amazing.... just totally f'n amazing!

[imarangemaster]

Amazing.... just totally f'n amazing!

I thought so. Who in the heck would cut that many coils off of a recoil spring? Either he shot "mousefart" target loads, or he wanted to make it easier to re-assemble the weapon.

[imarangemaster]

Well, I changed out the springs in the Kahr 6 round factory mags. One was almost as long s the replacement, but one was completely collapsed. It barely extended past the bottom of the magazine 1/2". At first I thought Bubba clipped coils on that spring too, but it has the same number of coils as the factory replacement. It appears to be the same color and design, so I conclude it is a collapsed factory sprig.

I know from my days/training as an armorer, that leaving a magazine loaded is not what degrades a spring. The constant cycling (compression and release of a spring tension) is what breaks it down. I did a test with S&W 59 magazines on the PD, leaving them compressed for two or three years. They were exactly the same length as when they were first put in the magazine. A friend did the same test with 30 round USGI M1 carbine magazines, and had the same result. In the USAF SP arms room, I used to leave the M16 mags for our GAU-5/A/A AR platforms loaded with 30. They never gave any problems. We would empty the mags on twice annual range days, then charge them with fresh rounds for duty issue.

It is unlikely that the last owner used the magazine so much it degraded the spring to that extent. I am guessing it was a defective spring, not properly tempered. I have run into that occasionally on new mags as an Armorer.

[Armybrat]

These CW45s are softer shooters than one would expect, aren't they?

Glad to see it coming together for you.

[Bawanna]

Somewhere around here I posted the story of my 1942 Colt 1911. Given to me by a friends uncle along with a pristine M1 Carbine.

It came with two mags fully loaded in 1945 I believe he said. He put it in his duffle bag along with a junker on top for the inspectors to catch. He said if they found a gun they stopped looking so they missed the carbine and the Colt. Lucky for me.

He got home and I never did get a straight answer on why but he never touched that duffle bag since, this was 6 or 8 years ago, maybe longer.

He took it out as he told me all this. I was shocked to find that the gun and the spare mag were both fully loaded. Must have been well oiled and never got a bit damp, not a speck of rust on either gun.

He started to unload the mags but thinking of all these mag spring discussions I asked him not to. A month or so later I took it untouched other than routine safety inspection to the range and fired both magazines with zero issues. Guess sitting loaded for 50 years didn't adversely effect it too bad.

[imarangemaster]

I actually thought it banged pretty hard in the hand, but that was probably because of the chopped recoil spring allowing it to hit back too hard. It will be interesting to see how it is with the spring. It seems like it is about twice as stiff to pull back with the new spring as it was with the old cut down spring!

[Iggy]

My wife went from a air weight .38 revolver to the CW45 and loves it. I'm use to shooting a 1911 steel framed CCO in 10mm and the CW 45 was a pleasant surprise.

[Armybrat]

Yeah, the recoil on those airweight J-frames with +P can be a little stout.

[Iggy]

She's been carryin' and shootin' J frames for 40 years, but she's got some arthritis in her thumb from dislocatin' it one time when she was sortin' cattle. Horse went right and she went left over it head.

Got to where she din't like shootin' that buckin' and snortin' .38 and took to the Kahr slick as a whistle. First time out she was shootin' groups the size of cigarette pack at 15 yards. She's heck of a fine backup if it comes to that.

[imarangemaster]

Haha! True. I have a Taurus 85 2" .38 (Chief Special clone) I carry in an ankle holster (with a striiper of 6 more in my left front pocket) when I when slacks and tucked shirts. It's loaded with Federal LE only +P+ 158 grain Hydra-Shocks I got when I was still on the SO. They are down right nasty to shoot from the little belly gun. I much prefer shooting the CW45 to it!

The problem with 38s is that most don't break 175 ft lbs in 2" revolvers and some don't break 100 ft lbs!. At least these hit about 250 to 270 ft lbs from the little Taurus, but you pay for it. 380 autos tend to be more effective than 2" 38s in reality., but for some reason, I still prefer the little Taurus. The CW45 is my go to weapon for non-tucked shirt days, though.

[Iggy]

Cowboys wear vest don'tcha know, so I've been playin' with packin' this little Kahr in a Remora holster in the appendix position.. I've got Dunlop's Disease so that rascal fits right next to my suspenders when I'm standin' and pokes out a bit when I'm sittin'. Right quick in either situation. Handiest I've found for sittin' in a car.
A hijacker would be toast in 2 seconds.