25 yard sight alignment for K9

[Handy]

I don't think I'm going to be able to get any range time before I take my E9 to IDPA. For the longer shots I need to know where the sights are aligned. Does Kahr use a traditional 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards, center hold or dot over bull?

I hope someone shoots a Kahr beyond 10 yards. It is a finely made, accurate pistol with full sized sights.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/attachments/hk-handgun-talk/28078d1420845523-vp9-sight-alignment-when-shooting-sightimages.jpg

[muggsy]

Dot over bull. Twenty five yards isn't that far and doesn't require a holdover. Kahr pistols were designed for close up and personal shooting. Twenty one feet is the standard distance for a defensive pistol.

[Handy]

It has nothing to do with bullet drop and holdover. Sight alignment is simply a choice of how the manufacturer designed to regulate the sights to POI. A 6 o'clock hold on a standard NRA bullseye target IS a center hold if you're only shooting at 7 yards, since the bullet crosses the sight line around 5 yards.

So you are saying that you've actually shot at 25 yards and hit the middle of the bull with a Dot over Bull hold? I wish it was something else - so hard to make head shots when the front sight obscures the target.

[CJB]

Dead horse flogged plenty already in this thread!

[Handy]

Because I asked where the sights are pointed? What part of that is opinion?

[Sgt 127]

I want all my guns to shoot like figure 2. And, as I recall, that's how Kahrs are set up. It's been too long since a really wrung one out, but, I think I'm right.

I want holes to appear exactly on top of the front sight and I've swapped out Sig sights to get what I want. So, I appreciate your question.

[RonW]

For someone who actually has a CC license & daily carries his Kahr CW40 & K9 for IDPA I can tell you that both pistols hit POI... 3 yards out to 25 yards, both pistols hit where I was pointing at. In other words, sight image #3. Dot the I sights I put the front sight on where I want it to hit. On the 3 dot system, I line them up just a hair under the bullseye

[Handy]

For someone who actually has a CC license & daily carries his Kahr CW40 & K9 for IDPA I can tell you that both pistols hit POI... 3 yards out to 25 yards, both pistols hit where I was pointing at. In other words, sight image #3. Dot the I sights I put the front sight on where I want it to hit. On the 3 dot system, I line them up just a hair under the bullseye
A hair under, but not as far under as sight image #2?

[muggsy]

It has nothing to do with bullet drop and holdover. Sight alignment is simply a choice of how the manufacturer designed to regulate the sights to POI. A 6 o'clock hold on a standard NRA bullseye target IS a center hold if you're only shooting at 7 yards, since the bullet crosses the sight line around 5 yards.

So you are saying that you've actually shot at 25 yards and hit the middle of the bull with a Dot over Bull hold? I wish it was something else - so hard to make head shots when the front sight obscures the target.

Who are you going to shoot in the head at 25 yards? You're going to have a damn difficult time explaining to a jury why you were in fear of losing your life when the person you shot was 75 feet away. Serious social engagements occur more often at arms length not at 75 feet. Let's get real here.

[ripley16]

I shoot my Kahrs using #2. Seems to be the factory set as judged by my personal accuracy.
My target .22lrs are all set up for #1.
My HKs are ready for #3, your typical military sight picture.

[berettabone]

Most of mine seem to be most accurate from that distance at #3.

[RonW]

A hair under, but not as far under as sight image #2?

Yes sir...Kinda between #2 & #3. All my pistols with the exception of my K9, have a bar dot sight. Only my K9 has the factory 3 dot night sights and that is how I line them up, just a hair under #3, but not quite as low as #2 and it seems to shoot right on with that hold. With bar dot sights I put the front sight on where I want to hit, and it's dead on, up to 25 yards..

I've grown to really like the bar dot sight set up...

[Handy]

Who are you going to shoot in the head at 25 yards? You're going to have a damn difficult time explaining to a jury why you were in fear of losing your life when the person you shot was 75 feet away. Serious social engagements occur more often at arms length not at 75 feet. Let's get real here.
I'll let the IDPA officials know how you feel, but that doesn't change the fact that my question specifically is about making head shots on IDPA targets out beyond 20 yards, not killing people. While you might see a K9 as somehow much less gun than a Glock or something, it is just as functional as any other medium sized combat pistol for this type of simulated combat game.



However, there was a self defense shooting last year in a church where an armed parishioner shot the gunman at fairly long range. Apparently she and the killer didn't get your memo to stand within 21 feet of each other. Nor did the policeman that shot a rifle toting gunman at 100 yards with his duty pistol recently. Statistics can only tell us what happened most often in the past, not what will happen. 25 yards isn't that great a distance when you start talking about mass shootings and large public buildings. If you believe 7 yards and 2 shots is all you'll ever need, by all means stop weighing yourself down with an auto when a derringer will do at that range.


Thanks everyone else for your information about Kahr sights.

[RRP]

I'll let the IDPA officials know how you feel, but that doesn't change the fact that my question specifically is about making head shots on IDPA targets out beyond 20 yards, not killing people. While you might see a K9 as somehow much less gun than a Glock or something, it is just as functional as any other medium sized combat pistol for this type of simulated combat game.



However, there was a self defense shooting last year in a church where an armed parishioner shot the gunman at fairly long range. Apparently she and the killer didn't get your memo to stand within 21 feet of each other. Nor did the policeman that shot a rifle toting gunman at 100 yards with his duty pistol recently. Statistics can only tell us what happened most often in the past, not what will happen. 25 yards isn't that great a distance when you start talking about mass shootings and large public buildings. If you believe 7 yards and 2 shots is all you'll ever need, by all means stop weighing yourself down with an auto when a derringer will do at that range.


Thanks everyone else for your information about Kahr sights.

If you were hoping experienced shooters would respond to your inquiry, replies such as this are counter-productive to your cause.

Good luck at your IDPA match.

[b4uqzme]

Who are you going to shoot in the head at 25 yards?,,.

IDPA does ocassionally require you make some long head shots...maybe not 25 but 10 or 15 yards easy. They are trying to stretch a shooter's skills and make it challenging.

#2 IIRC.

[Handy]

If you were hoping experienced shooters would respond to your inquiry, replies such as this are counter-productive to your cause.


Why?


I get the distinct impression from CJB and Muggsy's two posts that my request for a technical data is somehow "political", with a few people on the board attempting to tell others what range they can shoot their pistols. "21 feet" has nothing to do with the OP, but you seem annoyed that I took the time to disagree with Muggsy on the basis that I cannot control the ranges dictated by the IDPA matches I mentioned, and that there is no "standard" for defensive shootings - just averages.

You seem to be implying that my reply to Muggsy's two off-topic posts makes me rude. Does it?

[b4uqzme]

Why?...

Why indeed? Not sure why this thread has taken an angry bent...

[jg rider]

I know that this is an old thread but I'd like to ask: has anyone tried aiming with what's called out of the notch. I sight my guns normally with a 6:00 hold of center at 16 yds. And at 25yds. I still use a center 6:00 hold. But with the top of front sight higher in the rear sight notch. It works for us. And did for Elmer Keith.

[CJB]

Dunno what to say, except, my four Kahr's (now three) all were pretty close to "center hold" at 25 and they all shot a bit low at 15 and 7. My guess... is they were on the rise closer, pretty much on at 25, and then again lower at greater distances.

[jg rider]

Dunno what to say, except, my four Kahr's (now three) all were pretty close to "center hold" at 25 and they all shot a bit low at 15 and 7. My guess... is they were on the rise closer, pretty much on at 25, and then again lower at greater distances.

You're right but depending on my reloads this is what works for me. I'm a Steel Challenge competitor and I shoot the lightest loads that will still cycle my 180 gr. loads out of my 1911 .45s . 6" steel plates are placed from as close as 10 yds. for a poa / poi to out to 35 yds. steel plates for 12" plates. The out of notch works for me at that distance. I guess my rounds have past the highest point in trajectory before .25 yds.

The original question was had anyone tried the out of notch technique. Not to start a debate on trajectory.