Question about slide stop spring...

[alank2]

Hi,

I picked up my new PM9 (PM9093) tonight and it looks great. I took it apart and cleaned it up and lubed it per the lube diagram.

My question is about the slide lock lever - that spring isn't very strong. You can push up on it with the magazine removed and it will stay up until you retract the slide slightly - is that normal?

So far so good, we'll see how it shoots soon! IC12xx with the new front style slide cuts.

Thanks,

Alan

[ripley16]

My question is about the slide lock lever - that spring isn't very strong. You can push up on it with the magazine removed and it will stay up until you retract the slide slightly - is that normal?

Yes, that's normal and allows you to lock the slide back easily. Enjoy your new pistol,

[alank2]

Hi,

Range session number 2 today was good except for the slide stop lever. I had it lock the slide 3 times even though there were still rounds in the magazine. Could it be that I didn't reassemble it properly? If I push up on the lever it stays, but it I retract the slide partially with no mag in, it does go down. The spring just isn't very strong. Any tips on what I should do?

[jlottmc]

Call Kahr. That's not an area that many should mess around with.

[Bawanna]

Confirm that your not hitting it with your thumb while firing. It's quite common and happens to lots of people without even knowing it. I was there once.
If your left handed we know your not. Like you say it doesn't take much to pop that lever up.

[alank2]

Hi,

Not left handed, and my grip definitely keeps all my fingers away from the lever, so I don't think I'm interacting with it.

How do you tweak the spring? I have the correct torx and have unscrewed it a bit to look at it? How tight should it be? Enough to hold the spring flat, but not press it against the frame? Snug?

Thanks,

Alan

[Bawanna]

Hi,

Not left handed, and my grip definitely keeps all my fingers away from the lever, so I don't think I'm interacting with it.

How do you tweak the spring? I have the correct torx and have unscrewed it a bit to look at it? How tight should it be? Enough to hold the spring flat, but not press it against the frame? Snug?

Thanks,

Alan

Snug is a good descriptive word. Remember your screwing steel into tupperware. Steel always wins and if you go too hard it's game over.
Since I've not tweaked a spring, I'm not gonna go there but a few here have. Hopefully they'll address that. I'm sure if you think the spring is bad or weak Kahr would send you a replacement. Since you've already loosened the screw that might be a good option even if you do tweak it and it works. Nothing to lose.

[alank2]

Hi,

I don't know that it is bad, perhaps it just needs to be tweaked. If anyone has experience with it, please chime in!!

Thanks,

Alan

[Bawanna]

I know there was a thread where Jocko said to take the slide off and insert a loaded mag to see if the bullets touched that spring. I tried unsuccessfully to find it. That would show you how much or if you need to tweak that spring if the bullets are hitting it and pushing the lever up..

I'd still make positive sure to eliminate the thumb, I did it and didn't even know it. I did a melt down job on my lever and it never happened again. My son never had issues with it, just a slightly different grip.

[alank2]

Hi,

Checking my grip was the first thing I did after it happened. I had an issue like this once with a Glock extended slide lever. In today's case however, the grip I have keeps all fingers well away from the lever so I think I'm ok on that.

Thanks,

Alan

[alank2]

Hi,

I put the screw back in just to where I see it not touching the slide stop (a little light can be seen). In this spot it also doesn't seem to impede the spring from moving either. I noticed a little wear on the end of the screw where it has been rubbing the slide stop, so maybe this was part of the issue. I greased the screw head to smooth it as well as the slide stop pin and the barrel center, all greased with flitz grease. It does seem to have a stronger downward push now than it did before. If you push it up and let it sit it will try to move down slowly on its own and it you retract the slide (removing pressure on it) it will jump down with a small snap, so hopefully this will solve the issue. An empty mag does indeed push up on it properly as well.

Thanks,

Alan

[wyntrout]

Here are some pictures and the discussion about my PM45 slide lock spring. I got my P380 back with the random slide lock backs before the magazine was empty.
Kahr replaced the slide stop spring and polished the slide stop. I don't have pix for those but try these from my post on 07-19-2010, 09:20 PM :
http://kahrtalk.com/p-cw-series-pistols/2774-new-380-same-issues.html
Look at the springs... old vs. new and how the spring should rest on the "ledge" on the inner side of the slide release.
Wynn

[Bawanna]

Wynn, you da man. That was the exact thread I was trying to find. Your darn good at hunting this stuff up. If it was up to me I'd give ya a promotion but since I'm low man on the totem pole you already outrank me.
Perhaps a gold star would suffice, thought that counts and all that?

[alank2]

Hi wyntrout,

I read that whole thread - are you guys saying that the screw should be tightened until the washer flattens against the spring? I found that when I did this that the entire spring did not want to move, just the end of it. I figured it should be loosened just enough to allow the whole spring to move under the washer - is that right?

Thanks,

Alan

[Bawanna]

Hi wyntrout,

I read that whole thread - are you guys saying that the screw should be tightened until the washer flattens against the spring? I found that when I did this that the entire spring did not want to move, just the end of it. I figured it should be loosened just enough to allow the whole spring to move under the washer - is that right?

Thanks,

Alan

Your precisely correct Alan, the spring needs to move. I also recall a fella that had that washer intefering with things and he just flattened one side a bit to clear. Your on the right track if that lever is pulling down and moves freely.

[alank2]

Hi,

It certainly seems a bit more positive now, we'll see how it does the next time I get it to the range then. Thanks for the help everyone!

Thanks,

Alan

[alank2]

Hi,

Well, I took it out for another 50 rounds today and it failed once! I guess I'll call Kahr tomorrow and get them to send me a new spring and see how that does.

Thanks,

Alan

[wyntrout]

Ask for a spring, washer, and screw to make sure you have a good fit. I was told to just tighten until I felt resistance. You don't want to strip the plastic screw hole. That screw spring needs to move a bit... the little part that rests on the slide lock.
Wynn

[alank2]

Hi,

Well, so far, they have been reluctant to send me a new spring to try. I've gone back and forth a few times in email exchange and they said they wanted me to send it in which I really don't want to do unless I have to. I'll try to get them on the phone tomorrow. What else besides this spring could cause an issue like this?

Thanks,

Alan

[alank2]

Hi,

They are sending me a new spring to try. I also called tech support to get the proper way of setting the screw and they said:

The spring looks somewhat like a G and that the screw should be tight enough that the top and left part of it do NOT move. If I understood him correctly, the bottom perhaps from 6 o'clock and going counter clockwise should move and that the rest should be clamped down.

My question is - for any of you who have one that is working great. The next time you safely unload and field strip it, would you try pushing down on the little part that contacts the slide lock and see if only the 6 o'clock through 3 o'clock part of the spring moves, or does more of the spring move? This would confirm what the tech said.

Thanks,

Alan

[alank2]

Hi,

Looking at it again, the spring actually looks like it sits below the part that sticks up and I am beginning to think that if the spring is in their right, flat against the frame, that the washer will not touch it even when the screw is tightened. I think the washer ends up flush against the frame protrustion. So, the full spring does move as you might think. I took the spring off again, and used my tiny Swiss army knife pliers around to straighten the bend ever so slightly around 5 o'clock (if looking at the spring like a G). I reassembled it and it has a much better push down on the slide stop now. If I push it up, it will snap back down even without me retracting the slide pressure. I am hopeful that this one little spring tweak may fix the issue. We'll see the next time I get to the range!

Thanks,

Alan

[alank2]

Hi,

I took it out for another 50 rounds today to see if the stronger downward pressure would fix the issue.

Sadly, it did not. In the 50 rounds I shot, I had two more slide locks with rounds remaining in the magazine. Sure enough, a quick push down of the slide stop lever loaded the round and it fired.

So, I got it home and started looking at the magazine and the way it contacts the slide stop lever. Both magazines as expected, when empty, pushed the lever up. Both magazines with a round loaded in them insert fine and do not push the lever up. But then it hit me - what if the rounds were getting pushed just a little forward in the magazine? I pulled the magazine and pushed the round forward just a little bit, perhaps 1/16" and then put it back in. The problem is found! The bullet is contacting the slide stop lever and pushing it up!!!

If you look at the slide stop lever there is a small landing on the underneath where the magazine pin pushes it. But, it also comes to a point for some reason well beyond that landing. It was this point that was hitting the bullet. Checking the price of a new slide stop lever on the Kahr site showed me that I could get another one for $25 so I decided to get out my steel file and file this point down a bit. The goal being to make it not stick out and contact ammunition, even if pushed forward in the magazine a 1/16" to 1/8". I filed the point down so that it was no longer protruding and basically made a new edge between the two points leading to the original point. I put a slight bevel from the underneath since that is the direction the ammo feeds from. The landing is still very much there and both of my magazines are still solidly hitting it when no ammo is present. I can push a round so far forward in the mag now that it won't go up through the magwell easily and it now still clears the slide stop lever.

I am hopeful that this will fix the issue and will get out to the range asap to find out for sure!!

For anyone else having the slide lock back before the mag is empty, you might want to check this! What I find really odd is that I see no good reason for the point to exist, all that is necessary is for the magazine metal pin to push up on that landing.

Thanks,

Alan

[wyntrout]

That seems to happen a lot. That part of the slide lock often needs a a little reduction or "polishing" as Kahr CS says. Just don't remove so much that the magazine follower's metal pin can't actuate the slide lock on empty magazine.
The Kahr magazines don't keep the cartridges in place very well. The next round in the magazine often gets dragged forward and sometimes contacts the slide lock, causing premature slide lock back.
What you did -- chambering a round and then removing the magazine demonstrates that. If you remove the slide, re-insert the slide lock, and then re-insert the magazine with the advanced cartridge, you can see if that's the problem... the advanced cartridge contacting the slide lock actuator. Inserting an empty magazine with the slide off and the slide lock in place will let you see if the follower's metal pin and the actuator mate up sufficiently and if there's any extra metal you can safely remove.
I hope this fixes your problem. I tried to stop my P380's slide locking back prematurely several ways, unsuccessfully. I even tried to create detents to hold the cartridges in place and ruined a magazine in the process. I finally sent the gun back to Kahr... they paid for shipping. They replaced the slide lock spring and polished the slide lock. They also replaced one of my "modified" magazines and I got the "bad one" to work reliably.
The problem seems to be solved. I took the P380 to the range and fired 150 rounds or so, mixed ammo, with no problems at all.
Wynn

[alank2]

Hi wyntrout,

Thanks for the feedback. So far this has been my only issue with the PM9 and I really like its size and accuracy. My PM9 has had absolutely no feeding or extraction issues. I don't even have to use the slide stop to load cartridges. I can slingshot the slide or even let it ride forward slowly and it will still load a round every time. We'll see how it does when I get back to the range.

Thanks,

Alan

[jocko]

I have mixed emotions on that being a fix. In your case it might be but all kahrs advance that round forward somewhat. the thing is WHEN does that round advance as forward as you are seeing. When the slide is closing and taking a new round out of the magazine I think it is then that the next round is being advanced somewhat and by that time the slide is not close to the position where it can be locking open accidently. Those rounds sit tightly on top of each other and kahr magazines as most all have noticed have more open lips in their magazines than most. My two cents on that is possably due to the offset feed ramp design..

If I had to bet,, your slide lock lever was alittle out of spec or the combination of possably the round you were using might be causing this to happen, along with a slide lock lever out of spec. More semis have slide lock lever replaced than any other part. has to be a reason for that IMO. I had 3 slide lock levers replaced in my Para carry 9 before it ever got right and all three looked identical.

Not aruging your fix, as that could be a fix for also an out of spec slide lock lever. If your kahr is relatively new, Kahr will more than likely send you a new slide lock lever, especially if you tell them the rounds are hitting on the inside. Just my obesevation, but I know of no kahrs that the next round in the magazine doesn't advance

But sometimes alittle in home TLC can fix things just as easy. I had that happen big time on my P380, it would not feed Remington 102 gr golden sabres without premature slide lock. I filed the first slide lock lever down and ended up takng to much off, then the magazine follower would not pick up the lever, Solved the premature problem but incurred another due to my screw up. A new lever from kahr helped the golden sabres about 90% but I didn't have full faith in that round and the gun combo. So I just switched brands of defense ammo and have since never had that slide lock issue.

Karhs are not AMMO SENSITIVE IMO

Just shoot it likeyou stole it!!

[alank2]

Hi Jocko,

I was a little concerned to try it at first, but I've found that when I try to fix something usually I put more time into trying to fix it than somebody else would. Looking at the part cost if I messed it up I thought I would take a chance. I agree that you have to strike a balance of filing off enough to solve the problem, but not too much to keep empty mags from locking it open.

My PM9 is so great in feeding and extraction, I didn't want to take a chance sending it in that they would replace the slide or barrel as a "let's try it to see if this fixes it" fix.

I got back from the range just a little bit ago and I am happy to report - NO MORE PROBLEM!!! I shot ten 6+1 fully loaded (70 rounds) and had zero problems of any kind.

Thanks,

Alan

[wyntrout]

I never tried the Rem GS in the P380, but I did compare that to bunch of other brands in 9mm, and Remington GS were the longest, tallest, or whatever!. They almost don't fit in the darn magazine. I was amazed at the variance between different brands of ammo, though the Maximum difference was only .088”.

Defense ammo on hand:
Shortest to Longest 9mm O.A.L.

CorBon +P 125-grain 1.041” (+/- .001”)

Federal Hydra-Shok 135-grain 1.101” (+/- .002)

Double Tap Gold Dot +P 124-grain 1.111” (+ .003 to - .002)**

Speer Gold Dot +P 124-grain Short Barrel 1.126” (+.004 to - .001”)

Remington Golden Saber 124-grain 1.129” (+0.0” to - .004”)

**I was having a big variance in one Double Tap, depending on how I measured the O.A.L. :confused: I finally looked at the primer and it was "smeared".:D

I carry the Speer GD's in my PM9 and the K9 is loaded with the Double Tap GD's.


Pictures follow.

I got carried away as usual. I think that I was trying to show there's a difference in the overall lengths of various brands of cartridges. I didn't want to dig out my target ammo... BIG ammo can under smaller ammo cans in the closet. I have 4 different kinds of that.

Wynn:D

[jocko]

course again wyn, the golden sabre is 102 grain, and maybe that is why there is some difference. anyway I don'tuse it anymore even though it worked very good after the new slide lock but I jus felt there was to many other good proven rounds out there. Not rocket science as u well know. sometmes just trial and error to get the right combo.

[jocko]

Hi Jocko,

I was a little concerned to try it at first, but I've found that when I try to fix something usually I put more time into trying to fix it than somebody else would. Looking at the part cost if I messed it up I thought I would take a chance. I agree that you have to strike a balance of filing off enough to solve the problem, but not too much to keep empty mags from locking it open.

My PM9 is so great in feeding and extraction, I didn't want to take a chance sending it in that they would replace the slide or barrel as a "let's try it to see if this fixes it" fix.

I got back from the range just a little bit ago and I am happy to report - NO MORE PROBLEM!!! I shot ten 6+1 fully loaded (70 rounds) and had zero problems of any kind.

Thanks,

Alan

you, sometimes one even feels alittle better when he trouble shoots and then is able to fix it himself. nice job, at the worst you would have only ruined a slide lock lever. Kahr is pretty good about working with a customer on small things like that, as it sure beats the hell out of them having to pay shipping and inside house tech work for maybe a part that actually cost them $10 at best..

[wyntrout]

Great, Alan. It can help to closely examine how things work like that and make little adjustments... successfully. Congrats!
Wynn:)